I wasn't there in the thick of it, but I've heard that there was a discussion at hq between vhs and beta.....which one to go with....and they - - those that supposedly knew about the machines.....that beta max was a better product (I'm talking about the machine itself, not the tape going in or out) and so that was the machine twi selected. Then....the "adversary" chose to promote vhs to leave them (twi) high and dry! And eventually even twi had to go that way - vhs - - . That may be true or it may not be....it is simply what yours' truly was told.
As far as "word in culture"....one will have that to the degree that individuals in the culture - authors - musicians - artists - etc.... themselves, have it in them and hold it in high regard.
Maybe a similar question. Could one claim that early christians impacted culture? In a real measurable sense? One might say.. yeah, look, we have writings that survived thousands of years.. but writings from those who are of different religion might be able to boast the same claim.
I lived in St Marys for one year, working with T35l5r O235bey on that cartoon magazine.
I could say a lot about that pro and con, but the purpose of the post is that while living there, I painted a mural for the New Knoxville high school gym that was still there when I drove through in 2004. The custodian who let me in said when they repainted the gym, they decided to preserve the Ranger Country cowboy . I thought I had done more more for the community than the whole of HQ and I certainly felt more respect from the community than I ever did from the way.
I kind of feel like when they were at least pursuing what they called "Word in culture" people acted a lot more normal. Then you could have friends outside of "the household" and enjoy hobbies as they all had a purpose like "Word in culture". Once they stopped all that the only thing left to enlighten us on is how to read can labels properly. Woohoo!
I guess though when your high point of "Word in culture" is a production with a 2nd string bench warmer jock in tights who has the hots for a married seed of the serpent dancer, it doesn't bode well. Got to get that controlled and contained. What's the result? The Singing Ladies of the Burlap Sackcloth. Or was it the Singing Ladies of the leftover auditorium drape dresses? Constant scrutiny on the choir to ensure a proper plastic smile?
Nah, no impact in culture unless you're considering an artificial "Stepford Wives" culture a real culture.
In spite of wierwille's agendas and countless blunders, twi stood at the door of cultural inroads around 1980-81....but went retro recluse back to the commune.
Sure, one could argue about twi's founding and agendas.....but IF the "believers" were allowed to venture out into avenues of culture WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED? The writers, musicians, medical personnel, military, psychiatry, construction, business, etc.......and backing and support from hq.
Wierwille could have retired and basked in THEIR accomplishments, THEIR exploits. He could have touted his ministry as a springboard for all that followed in THEIR lives.....corps AND advanced class grads. He could have gone down as a true bridge-builder and mentor.
THAT did not happen.
Twi stopped and abruptly changed course. Verbal assaults and heavy-handed policies were instituted to stifle the growing culture independence. What?!? They wanted the corps to remain in lockstep as class instructors and NOTHING MORE???? How can THAT be right, or godly? To just be a numb-nuts peon and live under their rule.
When twi reverted course [1981].....it was the beginning of the end.
So, this "abundant life" gig [pfal] was all towards twi servitude and NOTHING MORE?
Forget about Stepford Wives.....this thing became more like The Hills Have Eyes.
Today, I just finished reading Of Dice and Men:The Story of Dungeons & Dragons and the People Who Play It by David M. Ewalt (New York: Scribner 2013). Fantasy role-playing was invented by Dave Arneson, who was a grad of PFAL. He co-authored the game Dungeons & Dragons with E. Gary Gygax, who was not a believer. Gygax tried to screw Arneson out of his royalties. Arneson prayed, sued and won. Five different times!
Arneson earned in the 5 or 6 figures annually from D&D, and he faithfully tithed off of it. The Trustees, including VP, sucked up to Arnesion when they were face to face, but they bad-mouthed him behind his back. Arneson went to the Word In Business & Professions conference every year, where he participated in the "inventors" breakouts, and he had a booth in the Arts and Crafts tent at the ROA every year, promoting games he published based on the Word. I know. I was there. I designed some of those games.
Arneson was a moderate, self-effacing man, but he has had a tremendously more powerful impact on our culture than Wierwille or TWI EVER did!
There was a time when, even wierwille, set in motion an awareness for moving into culture. Remember the New Breman Cultural Center? Yeah, I know it was little more than an old church that twi bought and, later, revamped into a makeshift recording studio for way productions.....but, notice the label. Cultural Center. Not something stupid like Uncle Harry's Hangout. This "cultural" center was used for many things thru the years [see below quote]....along with rehearsals and a few in-house performances of High Country Caravan [a thirteen-part series of made-for-tv productions to promote twi and cultural interests].
This reminds me of what happened during my in-rez years ('71-'73), when three women in my Corps during our second year were allowed to spend their 4-hour daily work assignment painting and drawing, using rooms in the Way Cultural Center in New Breman, which was an old church. There also was a recording studio there for the musicians around at that time.
The art produced by my Corps sisters was not Bible-oriented, as I recall, but portraits, still life paintings of fruit, etc. Although these weren't used in "moving the Word" I remember VP commenting how the spirit of Christ in these artists is what produced the art and because the art was produced by believers standing on The Word (his interpretation of the Bible, mostly plagarised etc.) it was a witness to the glory of God and the "greatness of His Word" (the vague phrase used as hype for VP's classes).
Looking back, I feel VP used people and their art to glorify his organization, taking credit for the quality of their art, as if these people weren't talented before they took PFAL! -penworks-
Also, twi made an investment towards the Fine Arts and Historical Center in Sidney, Ohio. A gutsy endeavor....to showcase twi's historical significance and cultural impact. This mansion was utilized for meetings, outreach, weddings and tours. During major events, twi would organize bus tours to this Historical Center.
Like so many things with twi, this too faded away. The mansion was sold and is known today as the Whitby Mansion.
The arc of cultural awareness and impact in twi was like a meteor streaking across the night sky......in the blink of an eye, it was gone. Few saw it and fewer acknowledge that it even existed at all.
What changed?
The heavy-handedness of twi hierarchy on believers' deeply-springing powers ---
The arc of cultural awareness and impact in twi was like a meteor streaking across the night sky......in the blink of an eye, it was gone. Few saw it and fewer acknowledge that it even existed at all.
What changed?
The heavy-handedness of twi hierarchy on believers' deeply-springing powers ---
just like the corps poem infers what NOT to do.
For those arriving late,
"the corps poem" was plagiarized (big surprise-not!) from a 191o poem by Henry Van Dyke
called "Spirit of the Everlasting Boy."
It was written in 1910 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Lawrenceville School's founding.
The school is still in regular operations, more than 200 years after it was founded.
I made a separate thread for the poem, here:
I wonder if anyone or anything will still be talking about twi 100 years after they were founded
in the 1950s, or even in their supposed founding date of 1942 (which commemorates no organization
of any kind, just a supposed date of an event vpw claimed happened but was obviously completely
With all of its bloviating, TWI never impacted culture one iota.....never even stirred the waters.
Wierwille was ALWAYS on the outside looking in.
As a child, he was a lazy loner.
As a student, he looked for every shortcut.
In seminary, he went against policy and eloped.
In his doctorate studies, he found a degree-mill.
As a small-town pastor, he bucked church boards.
He attended big-name seminars to gather ideas/material.
(so by your definition, "having impact" means being a total conformist, always following the rules, changing your own diapers, being a robot for whoever is in authority, etc.????? Those people have the LEAST impact!)
Twi's books are not allowed in local libraries.
(bibles were not allowed for public consumption....during the DARK ages, by THOSE authorities.)
Corps campuses had very little involvement with communities.
(those communities didn't WANT any involvement)
Even New Knoxville....2 miles away....has little respect for them.
(a prophet is not without honor except where?)
Many twi children attend NK school, but little with parents.
(what does this mean? Their parents are short? They don't have parents? What?)
Wierwille's church in Van Wert had vp's name stricken from clergy registry.
Amazing isn't it? All of their pomp and bluster about *power with an impact*....
*prevailing word*....etc. and the locals mock hq with drive-bys and obscenities.
(OK so these 'townies' with their vandalism, bullying, and hate crimes must be the people who really have an impact. Thank you. You just endorsed every criminal gang and terrorist organization in the world.)
Twi doesn't even garner the respect of the Amish subculture where integrity and
wholeness is lived in a peaceful way.
(talk about people who don't have an impact. Wait. That's right; they inspired the movie 'Witness'. Do you think those people are without sin? Do you think you are?
The Way's Auditorium was BUILT with major emphasis on "Word in Culture"......
with orchestra pit, rehearsal rooms, studio, lighting, stage-performance, etc.
and yet, BORING MONOTONE TEACHINGS SEEMS ALL THAT COMES FORTH.
I hesitate to bring this up again, as I don't wish to be perceived as fishing for a compliment (I'm not ) , or think this is any big deal(it's not)-but the point I was trying to make is that while living in St Marys, I painted a mural for the New Knoxville gym, that stands to this day. I did this job, them knowing full well I was a 'member', of the way. I thought and still think this was contributing to the community in a way we should have seen more of. If you want to call it 'word in culture' it's as good a local example as I can think of. Perhaps had I been in the corps it would have seemed more important. I never felt more invisible or worthless to the way than when I was closest to hq.
I also suspect the years I've been an artist at Disney would have been perceived as something they would have exploited somehow, had I been still involved. Of course I had to remove myself from the way yoke to do the work required to achieve any of the goals that somehow got put on the shelf for 12 years while I was in.
(so by your definition, "having impact" means being a total conformist, always following the rules, changing your own diapers, being a robot for whoever is in authority, etc.????? Those people have the LEAST impact!)
And yet if you look a little closer, the ones being robots for whoever is in authority are people in TWI, not the ones outside of it. The ones outside have started to exercise their "challenge authority" muscles.
Twi's books are not allowed in local libraries.
(bibles were not allowed for public consumption....during the DARK ages, by THOSE authorities.)
I don't believe that the local Christian denominational churches in New Knoxville are those authorities, nor do I believe they would censor Bibles. Commentaries that are masked with flawed logic like "how the Word interprets itself", I could see a reason not to include those. However, usually what is stocked in libraries anywhere near modern times with the internet like today are usually simply due to interest. No interest in an author, don't see him in a library.
Corps campuses had very little involvement with communities.
(those communities didn't WANT any involvement)
and the reason they didn't want involvement was this was a cult, not a Bible college. Now there are no more faux Bible colleges, only a farm and a ranch.
Even New Knoxville....2 miles away....has little respect for them.
(a prophet is not without honor except where?)
Let me see - it seems you are having some difficulty here with comparisons, so I 'll help you out. The reason that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country is that he is speaking truths from God that are unpopular. Not that the prophet is diddling a large sample size of the young twenty-somethings in his church he started and plagiarizing everything he wrote or class he taught. See the difference yet?
(OK so these 'townies' with their vandalism, bullying, and hate crimes must be the people who really have an impact. Thank you. You just endorsed every criminal gang and terrorist organization in the world.)
the fact that the words "wayfers" and "townies" even exist is a testimony to how universally disliked these people are. But no, the people who really have an impact are those that function according to God's design, not the wolves in sheep's clothing or the town hunting the wolves. You really don't see that kind of animosity of a community towards a church like you see with TWI. I mean even churches where the head pastor snorts crank with a gay escort he's sneaking off with while being married doesn't seem to generate that kind of animosity. TWI has a particular talent there.
The Way's Auditorium was BUILT with major emphasis on "Word in Culture"......
with orchestra pit, rehearsal rooms, studio, lighting, stage-performance, etc.
and yet, BORING MONOTONE TEACHINGS SEEMS ALL THAT COMES FORTH.
Hardly a ripple to stir the cultural waters.
the only cultural stir I noticed was Joel on "The Soup" watching some of the dancing and talking in a voice like God saying "never do that again...."
Regarding the teachings, when Ambien can't sleep it goes to the STS.... That is 180 degrees opposite of how Jesus taught.
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excathedra
beta max
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krys
Right you are excathy!
I wasn't there in the thick of it, but I've heard that there was a discussion at hq between vhs and beta.....which one to go with....and they - - those that supposedly knew about the machines.....that beta max was a better product (I'm talking about the machine itself, not the tape going in or out) and so that was the machine twi selected. Then....the "adversary" chose to promote vhs to leave them (twi) high and dry! And eventually even twi had to go that way - vhs - - . That may be true or it may not be....it is simply what yours' truly was told.
As far as "word in culture"....one will have that to the degree that individuals in the culture - authors - musicians - artists - etc.... themselves, have it in them and hold it in high regard.
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Ham
Maybe a similar question. Could one claim that early christians impacted culture? In a real measurable sense? One might say.. yeah, look, we have writings that survived thousands of years.. but writings from those who are of different religion might be able to boast the same claim.
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hiway29
I lived in St Marys for one year, working with T35l5r O235bey on that cartoon magazine.
I could say a lot about that pro and con, but the purpose of the post is that while living there, I painted a mural for the New Knoxville high school gym that was still there when I drove through in 2004. The custodian who let me in said when they repainted the gym, they decided to preserve the Ranger Country cowboy . I thought I had done more more for the community than the whole of HQ and I certainly felt more respect from the community than I ever did from the way.
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waysider
The Way is more like a bacteria culture.
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skyrider
Do you mean like a petri dish for cell culture experiments?
Where the mad scientist is testing results in his laboratory of horrors?
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chockfull
I kind of feel like when they were at least pursuing what they called "Word in culture" people acted a lot more normal. Then you could have friends outside of "the household" and enjoy hobbies as they all had a purpose like "Word in culture". Once they stopped all that the only thing left to enlighten us on is how to read can labels properly. Woohoo!
I guess though when your high point of "Word in culture" is a production with a 2nd string bench warmer jock in tights who has the hots for a married seed of the serpent dancer, it doesn't bode well. Got to get that controlled and contained. What's the result? The Singing Ladies of the Burlap Sackcloth. Or was it the Singing Ladies of the leftover auditorium drape dresses? Constant scrutiny on the choir to ensure a proper plastic smile?
Nah, no impact in culture unless you're considering an artificial "Stepford Wives" culture a real culture.
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waysider
More like the petri dish variety. All the experiments have been done and the results indicate failure.
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skyrider
You beat me to it......that was going to be my next post.
A Stepford Commune with programmed responses and servitude.
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skyrider
BUT......here's what I've repeatedly said:
In spite of wierwille's agendas and countless blunders, twi stood at the door of cultural inroads around 1980-81....but went retro recluse back to the commune.
Sure, one could argue about twi's founding and agendas.....but IF the "believers" were allowed to venture out into avenues of culture WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED? The writers, musicians, medical personnel, military, psychiatry, construction, business, etc.......and backing and support from hq.
Wierwille could have retired and basked in THEIR accomplishments, THEIR exploits. He could have touted his ministry as a springboard for all that followed in THEIR lives.....corps AND advanced class grads. He could have gone down as a true bridge-builder and mentor.
THAT did not happen.
Twi stopped and abruptly changed course. Verbal assaults and heavy-handed policies were instituted to stifle the growing culture independence. What?!? They wanted the corps to remain in lockstep as class instructors and NOTHING MORE???? How can THAT be right, or godly? To just be a numb-nuts peon and live under their rule.
When twi reverted course [1981].....it was the beginning of the end.
So, this "abundant life" gig [pfal] was all towards twi servitude and NOTHING MORE?
Forget about Stepford Wives.....this thing became more like The Hills Have Eyes.
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Steve Lortz
Today, I just finished reading Of Dice and Men:The Story of Dungeons & Dragons and the People Who Play It by David M. Ewalt (New York: Scribner 2013). Fantasy role-playing was invented by Dave Arneson, who was a grad of PFAL. He co-authored the game Dungeons & Dragons with E. Gary Gygax, who was not a believer. Gygax tried to screw Arneson out of his royalties. Arneson prayed, sued and won. Five different times!
Arneson earned in the 5 or 6 figures annually from D&D, and he faithfully tithed off of it. The Trustees, including VP, sucked up to Arnesion when they were face to face, but they bad-mouthed him behind his back. Arneson went to the Word In Business & Professions conference every year, where he participated in the "inventors" breakouts, and he had a booth in the Arts and Crafts tent at the ROA every year, promoting games he published based on the Word. I know. I was there. I designed some of those games.
Arneson was a moderate, self-effacing man, but he has had a tremendously more powerful impact on our culture than Wierwille or TWI EVER did!
And more GODLY, to boot!
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
More about the late Dave Arneson, for those curious cats who want more,
can be found here:
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skyrider
Any inroads towards culture......have fizzled.
There was a time when, even wierwille, set in motion an awareness for moving into culture. Remember the New Breman Cultural Center? Yeah, I know it was little more than an old church that twi bought and, later, revamped into a makeshift recording studio for way productions.....but, notice the label. Cultural Center. Not something stupid like Uncle Harry's Hangout. This "cultural" center was used for many things thru the years [see below quote]....along with rehearsals and a few in-house performances of High Country Caravan [a thirteen-part series of made-for-tv productions to promote twi and cultural interests].
Also, twi made an investment towards the Fine Arts and Historical Center in Sidney, Ohio. A gutsy endeavor....to showcase twi's historical significance and cultural impact. This mansion was utilized for meetings, outreach, weddings and tours. During major events, twi would organize bus tours to this Historical Center.
Like so many things with twi, this too faded away. The mansion was sold and is known today as the Whitby Mansion.
Whitby Mansion
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skyrider
The arc of cultural awareness and impact in twi was like a meteor streaking across the night sky......in the blink of an eye, it was gone. Few saw it and fewer acknowledge that it even existed at all.
What changed?
The heavy-handedness of twi hierarchy on believers' deeply-springing powers ---
just like the corps poem infers what NOT to do.
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waysider
We only thought it was a meteor. It was probably more like a firefly.
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WordWolf
For those arriving late,
"the corps poem" was plagiarized (big surprise-not!) from a 191o poem by Henry Van Dyke
called "Spirit of the Everlasting Boy."
It was written in 1910 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Lawrenceville School's founding.
The school is still in regular operations, more than 200 years after it was founded.
I made a separate thread for the poem, here:
I wonder if anyone or anything will still be talking about twi 100 years after they were founded
in the 1950s, or even in their supposed founding date of 1942 (which commemorates no organization
of any kind, just a supposed date of an event vpw claimed happened but was obviously completely
made-up.)
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waysider
You have to wonder, though, a hundred years from now, will people still speak of the colon cleanse with fond remembrance?
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skyrider
Thanks WordWolf.
Not only did wierwille plagiarize heavily.....he twisted
the poem's content into a pretzel.
Replacing "life's highest aim" with "life's highest game."
Even during those indoctrination-days, it was puzzling to think
of devoting myself to "life's highest game." Game??? Life's a game???
What Is The Way Corps?
Not ancient walls and ivy-mantled towers
Where dull denominational traditions
Rule with heavy hand
Believer’s deeply springing powers.
Not spacious pleasure courts
Or lofty temples of athletic fame
Where devotees of sports mistake a pastime
For life’s highest game.
Not fashion or renown
Or wealthy patronage and rich estate;
No, none of these can crown The Way Corps with light
And make it truly great.
But equipped believers, ambassadors strong and wise
Who teach because they love the teacher’s task
And find their richest prize
In eyes that open, and in minds that ask
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johniam
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waysider
skyrider:
Even New Knoxville....2 miles away....has little respect for them.
johniam:
(a prophet is not without honor except where?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
They're not prophets. They're an abusive cult, not worthy of honor.
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WordWolf
A) Comparing prophets of God Almighty with abusive cults or their sociopathic founders?
B) Even IF it was right to compare prophets of God Almighty with abusive cults or their
sociopathic founders,
the comparison falls down right there.
"A prophet is NOT WITHOUT HONOR EXCEPT"
If this comparison actually worked, that would mean that twi would not be respected in
New Knoxville but would be respected, say, in Lawrenceville, KS, Otumwa, IA,
Schaumburg, IL, Tuxedo, NY, Athens, GA, and so on. Legitimate movements of God
earn respect in places and get esteem among plenty of people.
C) Lack of respect does not equal "prophet of the Lord God Almighty."
Fools, morons, boors and society's bottom-feeders all lack respect, and they're
not prophets of the Lord God Almighty, either.
It's like being scoffed at because your ideas are nonsense.
"Go ahead and laugh. They laughed at Da Vinci, they laughed at Columbus,
they laughed at Galileo," some say. "I'm just another misunderstood genius."
No, they also laughed at Bozo. Being scoffed at can mean you're just another
clown and not another genius- even supposing all those guys were actually
laughed at (which they weren't.)
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hiway29
I hesitate to bring this up again, as I don't wish to be perceived as fishing for a compliment (I'm not ) , or think this is any big deal(it's not)-but the point I was trying to make is that while living in St Marys, I painted a mural for the New Knoxville gym, that stands to this day. I did this job, them knowing full well I was a 'member', of the way. I thought and still think this was contributing to the community in a way we should have seen more of. If you want to call it 'word in culture' it's as good a local example as I can think of. Perhaps had I been in the corps it would have seemed more important. I never felt more invisible or worthless to the way than when I was closest to hq.
I also suspect the years I've been an artist at Disney would have been perceived as something they would have exploited somehow, had I been still involved. Of course I had to remove myself from the way yoke to do the work required to achieve any of the goals that somehow got put on the shelf for 12 years while I was in.
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chockfull
And yet if you look a little closer, the ones being robots for whoever is in authority are people in TWI, not the ones outside of it. The ones outside have started to exercise their "challenge authority" muscles.
I don't believe that the local Christian denominational churches in New Knoxville are those authorities, nor do I believe they would censor Bibles. Commentaries that are masked with flawed logic like "how the Word interprets itself", I could see a reason not to include those. However, usually what is stocked in libraries anywhere near modern times with the internet like today are usually simply due to interest. No interest in an author, don't see him in a library.
and the reason they didn't want involvement was this was a cult, not a Bible college. Now there are no more faux Bible colleges, only a farm and a ranch.
Let me see - it seems you are having some difficulty here with comparisons, so I 'll help you out. The reason that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country is that he is speaking truths from God that are unpopular. Not that the prophet is diddling a large sample size of the young twenty-somethings in his church he started and plagiarizing everything he wrote or class he taught. See the difference yet?
the fact that the words "wayfers" and "townies" even exist is a testimony to how universally disliked these people are. But no, the people who really have an impact are those that function according to God's design, not the wolves in sheep's clothing or the town hunting the wolves. You really don't see that kind of animosity of a community towards a church like you see with TWI. I mean even churches where the head pastor snorts crank with a gay escort he's sneaking off with while being married doesn't seem to generate that kind of animosity. TWI has a particular talent there.
the only cultural stir I noticed was Joel on "The Soup" watching some of the dancing and talking in a voice like God saying "never do that again...."
Regarding the teachings, when Ambien can't sleep it goes to the STS.... That is 180 degrees opposite of how Jesus taught.
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waysider
Hey, kids! I've got a great idea!
Let's see how far we can drive this one off topic again before anybody notices.
hahahahahaha!
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