okay okay so when i went to my department head or whatever at HQ and said vince finnegan had wiped the whole floor, and that big building where i worked, with me, she said it was because he was spiritually something or other. wtf was that? i've told it before
oh yeah he was under a lot of spiritual pressure. i told her he should get another f'ing job
Right if things are out of balance the wheel eventually falls off.
If someone does not feel fear, do they not feel other emotions, like love? (That leaves a void to be redefined by someone else?) Are their experiences, their perspectives, so different that you can't treat them as being part of the same(or similar) reality as yourself?
I've noticed, some of use leave The Way and remember certain events, can compare notes and agree about what happened. Others, still on the kool-aid, come up with altered stories. I'm not entirely meaning the interpretations, but the facts of the events themselves. Being able to rewrite history is quite a tool.
However, if they are so different, they're not really re-writing the past. Their minds altered the present as it happened?
I'd like to de-emphasize the anger aspect of this. The silent empty eyes are more unnerving, to me anyway.
Are they simply . . . unaware . . . unable . . . they're minds shot . . . due to the teachings and mental practices of The Way?
It's not a mathematical formula. Some of them are too far gone to get it, some are not.
I swear, there are some twi'ers and ex-twi'ers who would have interrupted vpw forcing himself sexually on their wives/girlfriends/mothers, and would have put a positive spin on it and congratulated the numb, confused woman afterwards for the special service she provided within the one body.
i don't have answers. i just know when i was young i was already dealing with past sexual abuse so i didn't have the right protection mentally for myself (as hard as i tried)
i did hold wierwille at bay (is that the term?) for a long time
drinking with him is what finally did me in
when he got me on that coach and i found myself laying there looking into dead eyes, i floated and watched from above
there's more, but one step at a time
but it's true about wayfers saying it was a privilege a great one to be that spiritual and bless the man of god that way
oh what else?
oh, i did buy into the spiritual thing of this for a while, but i was trying to make sense of it or make excuses?
i know when i was sexually assaulted before the way, the excuses for it from the perp and my mind seemed so similar
Are they simply . . . unaware . . . unable . . . they're minds shot . . . due to the teachings and mental practices of The Way?
yes and no i guess. i don't know. was my mind shot due to teachings and practices? i think a lot from past sexual assault from a relative. but i think wierwille played on this.
teachings and mental practices bad because they (my undershepherders)told me it was a privilege to be with the man of god. phhhhhhh. i'm confused myself lol
then you have the wanting a father your whole life. then you have this f'ing father in the word who you can really trust. you're 19 years old blah blah blah blah blah
"I'm not entirely meaning the interpretations, but the facts of the events themselves. Being able to rewrite history is quite a tool."
Not so long ago, I listened to a show about false memory implantation. I don't recall off hand where I heard the show but here is a link that references the study that was being cited:
I've had the same conversations with some wayfers over and over. Because the don't remember the content from the last dozen times. I've learned to expect that and not get frustrated. I know in the Way they deny having the experience of emotions. If information, by conversation or an event, stirs an emotion, do you think they block it out?
If information, by conversation or an event, stirs an emotion, do you think they block it out?
If the information in the study is transferable to humans, I think this is quite possible. This would be very different than rationalization in that they would literally believe the information to be false. I've heard of people would could, in detail, tell you about the wonderful experience they had at the high school class reunion they never attended but thought they had. This is one of the great things about GSC. You can finally see that after all these years of thinking it was maybe "only me" that experienced certain things, there were, in reality, many, many others who experienced the same.
edit: Now that I think about it, weren't we taught in Renewed Mind or one of those classes to ignore the emotions because they can be *false*? We were supposed to only trust "The Word". Problem with that is it was just another way of saying you should only trust emotional input if its in compliance with Way Theology.
Since this phenomena is repeatable, almost predictable, there's a strong temptation to accuse a Wayfer of lying. That seems like a lot of work on their part, and an awkward conversation. If there was some way to describe it . . . It be easier to explain to someone with no experience with it.
When I was young and first involved with "The Way" back in 79/80,there were a lot of things that were not hitting me right, but I was too young and stupid to really question anything. And knowing NOTHING about God, I really drank what they said up. I was convinced they knew EVERYTHING. Even though I left "The Way" and went my own little merry way all through the 80s, I still, believed in the back of my mind that they were the only ones with "the truth."
Fast forward to the very early 90s. I wanted to reconnect with a "fellowship" I had no idea what had gone on with "The Way" while I was gone. I was never more than just a lowly drop-out leaf, after all. After digging through my phone book, I found a local "fellowship." Boy was it different. That was the first thing I noticed. Dead. Gone were the young vibrant enthusiastic "believers" (I know, I hate that term too, but that's what I was used to calling them) And now we had a bunch of middle aged yups with kids, all cliquish and weird. Like they just were a part of some elite little group. But I STILL believed that these people were the only ones who knew "the truth"
Well, all I can tell you is that for the next 7 years, it was awful. I was a misfit among misfits. I look back now and I truly believe that Holy Spirit was grieving me terribly, telling me to GET OUT. I didn't belong there. I realize that now. But at the time, I thought I was the one with the problem. It wasn't until after I left the fog started to lift, and I realized THEY are the ones with the problem. Not that I don't have problems, but you know what I mean.
Its like that quote I read here on Greasespot before..""The most dangerous lie, is that which most closely resembles the Truth." Boy oh boy is that true!
If God hadn't wanted us to have emotions, he would have designed us differently.
He gave us emotions for a reason. Or reasons. Part of which is to enable us to be fully human and not machines or more simple life forms.
Emotions are fine tools, helpers, warnings. As long as we process the information but don't allow our emotions to rule our lives, to dictate the long-term course of our actions.
I am trying to think of occasions where Jesus had a hissy fit when people were "emotional." Even when someone had died, he didn't have a hissy fit - simply said, "Don't weep," and then did something about the cause - raised the dead, healed the sick. Didn't deny the emotion, just removed the reason for it.
If God hadn't wanted us to have emotions, he would have designed us differently.
He gave us emotions for a reason. Or reasons. Part of which is to enable us to be fully human and not machines or more simple life forms.
Emotions are fine tools, helpers, warnings. As long as we process the information but don't allow our emotions to rule our lives, to dictate the long-term course of our actions.
Twinksters I think you hit on a good point. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be RULED by emotions, but, heck yeah, we have them for a reason! They are an image of what God himself projects I would think. Joy, sadness, laughter, grief, etc. And we have fear for a good reason, to keep us from doing stupid things and to take precautions when we need to.
On the other hand, our emotions can get us in trouble when we let them rule us. Anger, jealously, etc. It is hard though. Especially when driving, lol. But yeah I get what you mean.
but, where do we go from here.. the Illusion of Control has melted..
we are really small beans compared to the cosmos..
what are we after reality melts. are we friends, comrades, enemies.. adversaries..
what are we..
patiently waiting for an honest response..
Ham
We are, whichever is closest,
1) Co participants in a support group, or
2) Co workers in sociological janitoring
Proverbs 3:5,6 - Trust in the lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Aren't our emotions part of "all thy ways"? What do you do if you're having an argument with your spouse and it gets emotional and, uh, LOUD? What do you do if you've tried to be the bigger person and not respond emotionally and it isn't working, they're still yelling at you? Are you a robot if you don't respond emotionally? Are you a robot if you do? I'm just saying.
dearest rottie, you are about the loveliest misfit i have ever met
i think a lot of us along with our most precious lord and savior jesus chrst are misfits
well until we're all together again
i love you
(((exie))) Thanks exie. I agree that a LOT of us feel like misfits. I think though that Jesus would probably single us out and make us feel one of the "in" crowd. In fact, he DID do that from what little scripture I know. Shared a meal with all the outcasts. Hmm,I have another story, for another time, I may share on this board.But thanks for the post!
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WordWolf
Certainly,
the frustrations felt in twi would lead to hostility, which could erupt at any time.
To have it ENCOURAGED would only reinforce it was good to blow up periodically.
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Bolshevik
n
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Bolshevik
I'd like to de-emphasize the anger aspect of this. The silent empty eyes are more unnerving, to me anyway.
Is it impossible to communicate with a Wayfer? Is it like showing paintings to a blind person and expecting some new perspective?
Are they simply . . . unaware . . . unable . . . they're minds shot . . . due to the teachings and mental practices of The Way?
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excathedra
okay okay so when i went to my department head or whatever at HQ and said vince finnegan had wiped the whole floor, and that big building where i worked, with me, she said it was because he was spiritually something or other. wtf was that? i've told it before
oh yeah he was under a lot of spiritual pressure. i told her he should get another f'ing job
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WordWolf
It's not a mathematical formula. Some of them are too far gone to get it, some are not.
I swear, there are some twi'ers and ex-twi'ers who would have interrupted vpw forcing himself
sexually on their wives/girlfriends/mothers, and would have put a positive spin on it
and congratulated the numb, confused woman afterwards for the special service she provided
within the one body.
Everyone, no matter what, has a "snapping point." If someone just keeps piling stuff on,
and on, and on, the person will suddenly EXPLODE without warning- with unpredictable
results. One story told here was about a kid whose father forced him to be non-violent
to an extreme, punishing him heavily for the slightest hint of violence. Eventually,
some other kids figured out he would NEVER, EVER respond with violence. So, naturally,
some bully decided to do anything and everything since there would be no consequences.
I'm sure the bully was quite surprised the moment the kid flattened him. Yes, the kid
needed years of therapy later.
On the other hand, we have people like poor T0m M1tch3ll. lcm was bedding his wife
while lcm was twi's grand poobah. T*m tried to just internalize the party line that
it was a privilege, but he couldn't do it. One day, he was heard arguing with his
wife, and yelled that he was unable to compete with Craig. Then T*m walked off,
found his gun, and blew his brains out. Me, I wish he'd blown lcm's brains out
FIRST if he was going to commit suicide. Not that I wished T*m would die.
He was a crude boor, but that's hardly enough to earn a death sentence.
Of course, there were also women who committed suicide after vpw (and others?)
used them as merchandise (raped, molested, etc), and savaged their reputations
so nobody would listen to them if they came forward and told what happened.
----------------------
Getting back to the original question...
I think they're so used to being told stuff they never think about that anything
new won't produce a "wait a minute" moment. Something would have to happen to
suddenly GET THEIR ATTENTION and get them to actually look at things. Nowadays,
whether in twi or out of it, it's pretty rare for people to look at their
preconceived notions and evaluate them. With twi, it's a LOT rarer because twi
makes it a punishable offense to do so. So, if something can stop them completely
and get their attention and get them to ask the hard questions, THEN they can
wake up and see what's been done to them.
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Bolshevik
Right if things are out of balance the wheel eventually falls off.
If someone does not feel fear, do they not feel other emotions, like love? (That leaves a void to be redefined by someone else?) Are their experiences, their perspectives, so different that you can't treat them as being part of the same(or similar) reality as yourself?
I've noticed, some of use leave The Way and remember certain events, can compare notes and agree about what happened. Others, still on the kool-aid, come up with altered stories. I'm not entirely meaning the interpretations, but the facts of the events themselves. Being able to rewrite history is quite a tool.
However, if they are so different, they're not really re-writing the past. Their minds altered the present as it happened?
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excathedra
i don't have answers. i just know when i was young i was already dealing with past sexual abuse so i didn't have the right protection mentally for myself (as hard as i tried)
i did hold wierwille at bay (is that the term?) for a long time
drinking with him is what finally did me in
when he got me on that coach and i found myself laying there looking into dead eyes, i floated and watched from above
there's more, but one step at a time
but it's true about wayfers saying it was a privilege a great one to be that spiritual and bless the man of god that way
oh what else?
oh, i did buy into the spiritual thing of this for a while, but i was trying to make sense of it or make excuses?
i know when i was sexually assaulted before the way, the excuses for it from the perp and my mind seemed so similar
i'm not making sense. i'm sorry
i think so
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excathedra
yes and no i guess. i don't know. was my mind shot due to teachings and practices? i think a lot from past sexual assault from a relative. but i think wierwille played on this.
teachings and mental practices bad because they (my undershepherders)told me it was a privilege to be with the man of god. phhhhhhh. i'm confused myself lol
then you have the wanting a father your whole life. then you have this f'ing father in the word who you can really trust. you're 19 years old blah blah blah blah blah
puke :)
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waysider
"I'm not entirely meaning the interpretations, but the facts of the events themselves. Being able to rewrite history is quite a tool."
Not so long ago, I listened to a show about false memory implantation. I don't recall off hand where I heard the show but here is a link that references the study that was being cited:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-23447600
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Bolshevik
Thanks Waysider. Interesting article.
I've had the same conversations with some wayfers over and over. Because the don't remember the content from the last dozen times. I've learned to expect that and not get frustrated. I know in the Way they deny having the experience of emotions. If information, by conversation or an event, stirs an emotion, do you think they block it out?
Hi Ex, thanks for your posts :)
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waysider
If the information in the study is transferable to humans, I think this is quite possible. This would be very different than rationalization in that they would literally believe the information to be false. I've heard of people would could, in detail, tell you about the wonderful experience they had at the high school class reunion they never attended but thought they had. This is one of the great things about GSC. You can finally see that after all these years of thinking it was maybe "only me" that experienced certain things, there were, in reality, many, many others who experienced the same.
edit: Now that I think about it, weren't we taught in Renewed Mind or one of those classes to ignore the emotions because they can be *false*? We were supposed to only trust "The Word". Problem with that is it was just another way of saying you should only trust emotional input if its in compliance with Way Theology.
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Bolshevik
Since this phenomena is repeatable, almost predictable, there's a strong temptation to accuse a Wayfer of lying. That seems like a lot of work on their part, and an awkward conversation. If there was some way to describe it . . . It be easier to explain to someone with no experience with it.
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skyrider
Bolshevik....thanks for starting this thread. In my opinion, this *suppressing of emotion*
has been cunningly MANIPULATED from the powers that be in twi. I am certainly no psychiatrist,
but I believe that the systematic manipulation of scoffing at those who show emotion
is an effective tool of control.
There is something about one's emotions that circumnavigate the indoctrination process. I don't
quite know how to explain it.......but emotions open one's soul to empathize with his fellow man
and "walk in his shoes and feel the sandburs pricking" that identify with trouble, hardship, hurt,
oppression, castigating, bullying, etc. I would go so far as to say that EMOTIONS ARE THE GATEWAY
to discernment and, often, motivate us to action.
How fitting that a cult-group browbeats its followers to shut down their emotions.
Does emotional control CLOSE THE LAST REFUGE to critical thought and processing reality?
Seems to me, that God Almighty had a very unique and significant purpose in bestowing us
with an ARSENAL OF EMOTIONS.....to alert us to danger, to help us survive and thrive,
and to give us the full range of life and living.
1) Behavioral control
2) Information control
3) Thought control
4) Emotional control
The innermost heart of one's life and soul resides in emotions that we garner throughout our vast
array of experiences. We safeguard them because they are, often so intimate and private. While
some may attribute the show of emotions as weakness, I find them to be treasured and unique and
a collaboration of what makes me....me.
Maybe...none of this makes sense. But it does to me. :)
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Ham
but, where do we go from here.. the Illusion of Control has melted..
we are really small beans compared to the cosmos..
what are we after reality melts. are we friends, comrades, enemies.. adversaries..
what are we..
patiently waiting for an honest response..
Ham
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RottieGrrrl
When I was young and first involved with "The Way" back in 79/80,there were a lot of things that were not hitting me right, but I was too young and stupid to really question anything. And knowing NOTHING about God, I really drank what they said up. I was convinced they knew EVERYTHING. Even though I left "The Way" and went my own little merry way all through the 80s, I still, believed in the back of my mind that they were the only ones with "the truth."
Fast forward to the very early 90s. I wanted to reconnect with a "fellowship" I had no idea what had gone on with "The Way" while I was gone. I was never more than just a lowly drop-out leaf, after all. After digging through my phone book, I found a local "fellowship." Boy was it different. That was the first thing I noticed. Dead. Gone were the young vibrant enthusiastic "believers" (I know, I hate that term too, but that's what I was used to calling them) And now we had a bunch of middle aged yups with kids, all cliquish and weird. Like they just were a part of some elite little group. But I STILL believed that these people were the only ones who knew "the truth"
Well, all I can tell you is that for the next 7 years, it was awful. I was a misfit among misfits. I look back now and I truly believe that Holy Spirit was grieving me terribly, telling me to GET OUT. I didn't belong there. I realize that now. But at the time, I thought I was the one with the problem. It wasn't until after I left the fog started to lift, and I realized THEY are the ones with the problem. Not that I don't have problems, but you know what I mean.
Its like that quote I read here on Greasespot before..""The most dangerous lie, is that which most closely resembles the Truth." Boy oh boy is that true!
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Twinky
If God hadn't wanted us to have emotions, he would have designed us differently.
He gave us emotions for a reason. Or reasons. Part of which is to enable us to be fully human and not machines or more simple life forms.
Emotions are fine tools, helpers, warnings. As long as we process the information but don't allow our emotions to rule our lives, to dictate the long-term course of our actions.
I am trying to think of occasions where Jesus had a hissy fit when people were "emotional." Even when someone had died, he didn't have a hissy fit - simply said, "Don't weep," and then did something about the cause - raised the dead, healed the sick. Didn't deny the emotion, just removed the reason for it.
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RottieGrrrl
Twinksters I think you hit on a good point. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be RULED by emotions, but, heck yeah, we have them for a reason! They are an image of what God himself projects I would think. Joy, sadness, laughter, grief, etc. And we have fear for a good reason, to keep us from doing stupid things and to take precautions when we need to.
On the other hand, our emotions can get us in trouble when we let them rule us. Anger, jealously, etc. It is hard though. Especially when driving, lol. But yeah I get what you mean.
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Ham
If God didn't want us to be spiritual, he wouldn't let us have weird visions either..
Just saying..
Maybe I'm saying the same thing that you are saying..
Emotions can be very visually oriented.
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excathedra
dearest rottie, you are about the loveliest misfit i have ever met
i think a lot of us along with our most precious lord and savior jesus chrst are misfits
well until we're all together again
i love you
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johniam
We are, whichever is closest,
1) Co participants in a support group, or
2) Co workers in sociological janitoring
Proverbs 3:5,6 - Trust in the lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Aren't our emotions part of "all thy ways"? What do you do if you're having an argument with your spouse and it gets emotional and, uh, LOUD? What do you do if you've tried to be the bigger person and not respond emotionally and it isn't working, they're still yelling at you? Are you a robot if you don't respond emotionally? Are you a robot if you do? I'm just saying.
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RottieGrrrl
(((exie))) Thanks exie. I agree that a LOT of us feel like misfits. I think though that Jesus would probably single us out and make us feel one of the "in" crowd. In fact, he DID do that from what little scripture I know. Shared a meal with all the outcasts. Hmm,I have another story, for another time, I may share on this board.But thanks for the post!
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WordWolf
Some outcasts are just outcasts.
However, God has worked with a LOT of outcasts, both in and out of Scripture.
The stone which the builders rejected became the cornerstone.
This was THE LORD's doing, and it was marvelous in our eyes.
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RottieGrrrl
Amen WW Amen.
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