I really don't like to knock JAL too much, because CES at the time was a good, temporary halfway house for me to de-waybrain me, years ago, but I remember him saying to me, "There is power to be had." And that struck me as rather odd. That somebody would want to follow God because of His power. Ya know? God aint no fool. He knows our hearts. And he isn't going to reward us if our motives are wrong.
(snip)
Finally figured out what I was reminded of.
Acts 8:9-23
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Oh yeah exie take your time, it's not that long, the entire thing is less than half an hour, but you have to be in the right frame of mind to see it. It's quite brutal, I think, and painful to watch. I believe she may be healed, but I'm sure she still carries scars. PS. I love it when you say you can't read the whole post but you acknowledge it. lol. That tickles me, lol. Cause I know what you mean. I get lazy brain when things get wordy. I always had trouble reading Stephen King novels. Mr. Diarrhea of the word processor. :yawn1:/>
WW: Interesting scripture you brought up. I had forgotten about Simon the sorcerer. I am assuming he was born again because he believed, but yet I'm confused as to why the people were not saved yet after being baptized in the name of Jesus, I guess that's different than believing he is the Savior? I guess that's more of doctrine question though.
Since you brought that scripture up though, it made me think of another one in Acts. Where some Jewish exorcist wanted the power of casting out demons, like he saw the apostles doing, and got the crap beat out of him.
In fact, that scripture in Mathew that says "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
That scripture scares a lot of people, like salvation isn't a sure thing. But I think maybe it's talking about unbelievers using his name.
I've seen these ghost chaser shows where they are having seances and actually use the name of Jesus or the "white light" to protect them before they call up the dead. So I'm kind of hoping Jesus is talking about stuff like that. And not like idiot believers like me.
Anyway, people like the power, as you pointed out, it's right in scripture. Damn. I just want to get through this life with a peaceful exit, like I'm sure MOST of us do.
WW: Interesting scripture you brought up. I had forgotten about Simon the sorcerer. I am assuming he was born again because he believed, but yet I'm confused as to why the people were not saved yet after being baptized in the name of Jesus, I guess that's different than believing he is the Savior? I guess that's more of doctrine question though.
In this instance, I think what we were taught was correct. They believed and were saved.
What they didn't do was demonstrate any kind of sign-until someone else stepped in.
And yes, if someone's a degraded dirt-bag then is saved, but never changes his thinking
and conduct, he's still a degraded dirt-bag. Like Simon.
Since you brought that scripture up though, it made me think of another one in Acts. Where some Jewish exorcist wanted the power of casting out demons, like he saw the apostles doing, and got the crap beat out of him.
Acts 19:11-16
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
===============================================
In fact, that scripture in Mathew that says "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
That scripture scares a lot of people, like salvation isn't a sure thing. But I think maybe it's talking about unbelievers using his name.
I've seen these ghost chaser shows where they are having seances and actually use the name of Jesus or the "white light" to protect them before they call up the dead. So I'm kind of hoping Jesus is talking about stuff like that. And not like idiot believers like me.
Anyway, people like the power, as you pointed out, it's right in scripture. Damn. I just want to get through this life with a peaceful exit, like I'm sure MOST of us do.
Matthew 7:15-23.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
======================
Seems it's rather specifically about FALSE prophets, about those who made many
CLAIMS about doing the things of God, but were really workers of iniquity who
did not do what they claimed. (Sounds familiar, too.)
It has nothing to do with anyone attempting to be a Christian and trying to
Oh gosh WW: Thank you for clearing both things up. I can understand the Simon thing a lot better.
That one verse that is so terribly confusing about Jesus saying that not everybody who call's me Lord,etc...Well in context that sure makes a lot more sense. The thing is WHY don't the mainstream preachers get this? This is a verse that terribly frightens a lot of Christians, and whenever I hear this question being brought up via TV or radio, you hear a lot of mumbling and hmming and hawing from these "experts" but they pretty much just reinforce the belief that it's meant towards Christians. I don't know why I did not see this clearer just by reading it in context, I feel kind of stupid, but then again, I have to point to the "experts" who obviously can't answer a simple question either without confusing people.
In Luke 6:46 Jesus said, "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
The force of this saying came home to me during the Momentus debacle. Leaders (one of whom has already been named on this thread) were treating people in some of the vilest ways possible, all in the name of the "Lord." They said it was okay if five percent of the people were harmed (my estimate was more like 20%) because it did so very much good for everybody else. Yet Jesus said the good shepherd goes out of his way to find the ONE sheep who has strayed from the other 99.
Jesus said "What you do to the least of these, you do to me."
People who put their selves into leadership positions are taking on responsibility. That means they have to RESPOND for what they've done...
I have tried to rid myself of as much TWI leadership baggage as I can. There will be that much less to be "tried as by fire" when the time comes.
Back in 2000, I knew a guy that "took" Momentus, and ended up in the hospital. It really broke him psychologically. When I was dabbling in my very brief...well...dabble, in CES at that time, JL recommended Momentus to me. I couldn't believe he was doing that, when he KNEW this guy was hospitalized, and when I mentioned it to this guy, he just shook his head and remarked, "So he's still pushing Momentus, sheesh."
I just tried looking up Momentus therapy, and the only link to it is dead. There are websites that talk about it, (all negative) but I can't find a live link where anyone is actually still in business selling or practicing this.
That one verse that is so terribly confusing about Jesus saying that not everybody who call's me Lord,etc...Well in context that sure makes a lot more sense. The thing is WHY don't the mainstream preachers get this? This is a verse that terribly frightens a lot of Christians, and whenever I hear this question being brought up via TV or radio, you hear a lot of mumbling and hmming and hawing from these "experts" but they pretty much just reinforce the belief that it's meant towards Christians. I don't know why I did not see this clearer just by reading it in context, I feel kind of stupid, but then again, I have to point to the "experts" who obviously can't answer a simple question either without confusing people.
Two possible answers.
A) The "experts" are experts at their organization's THEOLOGY, and ASSUME the Bible
matches up to it, so actually reading it is an afterthought. Their theology and their
understanding is based on preconceived notions they were taught, not the Bible.
(Hey, it's affected me, too. One day, I felt a lightbulb go off when I realized I was
thinking that the 2 resurrections spoken of in the future will be mirrors of each other
and identical in almost every way- whether or not the descriptions of them actually
mirror each other. Once I realized the word "damnation" in one verse is commonly
translated "judgement" most other places-and probably should be translated "judgement"
everywhere- I realized I was looking at them through preconceived notions based on
what I was taught.)
So, they are faced with verses they THINK they understand, but actually don't. and can't
answer them because their answers are based on what someone said and not the actual verse.
Ever hear someone use Psalm 2:8 as a missionary verse? vpw claimed they did- and one day,
I heard someone do it!
Psalm 2:8
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
I got the other people with me, who were visiting that church, giggling when I showed
them the verse that was cited- along with the verse that followed.
Psalm 2:8-9
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Those aren't missionary verses.
The other possibility is that some of them KNOW it's wrong, but WANT to read them that way,
because it's in their own best interests to scare the congregation, and frighten them into
"circling the wagons." They WANT to frighten Christians because it doesn't help gain new
Christians, but scared Christians are too scared to leave the congregation.
(We saw that in twi, who still uses it. Others used it long before vpw ever did.)
Perhaps different preachers do it for different things- some with good intentions but
clumsy execution, and others intending to scare the flock into flocking together.
Back in 2000, I knew a guy that "took" Momentus, and ended up in the hospital. It really broke him psychologically. When I was dabbling in my very brief...well...dabble, in CES at that time, JL recommended Momentus to me. I couldn't believe he was doing that, when he KNEW this guy was hospitalized, and when I mentioned it to this guy, he just shook his head and remarked, "So he's still pushing Momentus, sheesh."
I just tried looking up Momentus therapy, and the only link to it is dead. There are websites that talk about it, (all negative) but I can't find a live link where anyone is actually still in business selling or practicing this.
How well can you trust a group that's always changing their name-
as if they don't WANT people to learn about them?
Momentus has also been known as "Breakthrough" and "Lifespring."
What their current name is, I don't know, since they went through both
"One Lifespring follower, Sue Hawkes, started a similar program, called Vistar, but it was unsuccessful. Lifespring training, once offered under a unified corporate umbrella, now appears in several guises world-wide delivered by differently-named companies. Some of these companies offering the training programs once offered by or based on Lifespring include Momentus; Insight Seminars; Resource Realizations; The Great Life Foundation, Visionworks; The Impact Trainings; Harmony Institute; Spectrum Trainings; Phoenix2000, Vistar/Serendipidity; Summit Education; Personal Dynamics; Choicenter; Millennium 3; Asia Works; Argentina Works; Essential Education; Rising Star Communications; Humanus Institute; and Wings Seminars
All sorts of different names, all to stay under the radar.
Oh, that mine enemy had stuck to one name at a time!
In Luke 6:46 Jesus said, "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
The force of this saying came home to me during the Momentus debacle. Leaders (one of whom has already been named on this thread) were treating people in some of the vilest ways possible, all in the name of the "Lord." They said it was okay if five percent of the people were harmed (my estimate was more like 20%) because it did so very much good for everybody else. Yet Jesus said the good shepherd goes out of his way to find the ONE sheep who has strayed from the other 99.
Jesus said "What you do to the least of these, you do to me."
People who put their selves into leadership positions are taking on responsibility. That means they have to RESPOND for what they've done...
I have tried to rid myself of as much TWI leadership baggage as I can. There will be that much less to be "tried as by fire" when the time comes.
Love,
Steve
Matthew 18:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Luke 17:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
17 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Oh my word wolf. I love you and I find you annoying because you actually get my brain a thinking. I need to think about this, I agree with your points, well taken my friend. But still...well, like I said, I'll respond to this a bit later lol. Okay, I think some guys are just LAZY. They are taken off guard and think they are like "the answer man" of the moment. So they have to come up with something...So without taking a breather, and saying, let me look at this scripture..they just come up off the cuff with some answer. I think that's part of it too.. Like I said, I need to digest some of this and think. Intelligence doesn't come naturally to me. lolololololol.
Oh my word wolf. I love you and I find you annoying because you actually get my brain a thinking. I need to think about this, I agree with your points, well taken my friend. But still...well, like I said, I'll respond to this a bit later lol. Okay, I think some guys are just LAZY. They are taken off guard and think they are like "the answer man" of the moment. So they have to come up with something...So without taking a breather, and saying, let me look at this scripture..they just come up off the cuff with some answer. I think that's part of it too.. Like I said, I need to digest some of this and think. Intelligence doesn't come naturally to me. lolololololol.
I think you've brought up a very good point.
I once had someone like that insult me because I refused to just rattle off an answer
to something I didn't know- instead, I said I was going to take it home and look some
things up. He, on the other hand, was convinced his no-pause, memorized answer-in-a-can
that was handed to him by his organization was correct. BTW, he wasn't correct, and a
much slower read actually would have shown that.
I've often found that coming back to something later means I'm more likely to have a
more intelligent response, and have to eat my words less. In fact, if given sufficient
time, I can come up with some rather neat, correct answers if I already have all the
Yeah, well, I'll tell you Mr. WW. I'm still going through your stuff, and LIKE I TOLD YOU, I hate it because you are making my brain work, lol. But your words are not in vain, it's just taking awhile, just so you know. :)
Once when I was a twig coordinator, one of my old grads was chewing me out because he had some kind of hare up his... behind. He wanted me to snap back at him, and I wasn't, so he started baiting me, "Where's all your knowledge of the Word? Where's all your spiritual wisdom now?"
I simply responded, "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer..."
That stopped him cold... It's Proverbs 15:28...
What a trip this thread has been! What memories have been evoked! What cans of worms have been opened up by explaining what "stringing chairs" meant!
The force of this saying came home to me during the Momentus debacle. Leaders (one of whom has already been named on this thread) were treating people in some of the vilest ways possible, all in the name of the "Lord." They said it was okay if five percent of the people were harmed (my estimate was more like 20%) because it did so very much good for everybody else. Yet Jesus said the good shepherd goes out of his way to find the ONE sheep who has strayed from the other 99.
Jesus said "What you do to the least of these, you do to me
that's so beautiful
--
let's knock the f'ing chair over and i don't know have sword fights with the butter knives
I once had someone like that insult me because I refused to just rattle off an answer
to something I didn't know- instead, I said I was going to take it home and look some
things up. He, on the other hand, was convinced his no-pause, memorized answer-in-a-can
that was handed to him by his organization was correct. BTW, he wasn't correct, and a
much slower read actually would have shown that.
I've often found that coming back to something later means I'm more likely to have a
more intelligent response, and have to eat my words less. In fact, if given sufficient
time, I can come up with some rather neat, correct answers if I already have all the
information I need.
[/quote
I remember when I was told that one of the beauties of "The Way Tree" was that if my Twig Leader didn't know, he'd ask the Branch Leader; if he didn't know, he'd ask the Limb Leader, etc. If the Trunk Leader had the answer, he'd tell the Limb Leader, who would tell the Branch Leader, who would tell the Twig Leader, who would tell me. And then we'd ALL know. A good idea, as long as the one who HAS the answer actually gets it from the Word. Of course, that wasn't always the case.
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Broken Arrow
I just thought of something. Do you think that during the 1st century, when the believers in Rome had to meet in the catacombs, that there was some elite group who went ahead of everyone and did set-u
Broken Arrow
You think they sang that to Craig?
waysider
This one might have been a good choice:
WordWolf
Finally figured out what I was reminded of.
Acts 8:9-23
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
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skyrider
Yep.....one of the first strident Mogs noted in the NT.
This man....this man.....this man
Same in twi regarding wierwille
Simon the mog-sorcerer
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excathedra
thanks my friend rottie, i will try to see what joyce has to offer and i appreciate your latest post
--
to my friends wolf and sky, if you would be kind enough and let me take a pass on reading all that, please give me the bottom line in your words
if not that is ok
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WordWolf
Since you asked nicely,
I compared JAL's comment where he was focusing on getting power from God with Simon the Sorcerer
and how he focused on getting acclaim from people by demonstrating power,
including real power from God.
sky then pointed out Simon's ego trip reminded him of vpw as well.
vpw's invention of the whole "The Man of God" title and majesty was actually
pretty similar to Simon's constructed reputation.
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RottieGrrrl
Oh yeah exie take your time, it's not that long, the entire thing is less than half an hour, but you have to be in the right frame of mind to see it. It's quite brutal, I think, and painful to watch. I believe she may be healed, but I'm sure she still carries scars. PS. I love it when you say you can't read the whole post but you acknowledge it. lol. That tickles me, lol. Cause I know what you mean. I get lazy brain when things get wordy. I always had trouble reading Stephen King novels. Mr. Diarrhea of the word processor. :yawn1:/>
WW: Interesting scripture you brought up. I had forgotten about Simon the sorcerer. I am assuming he was born again because he believed, but yet I'm confused as to why the people were not saved yet after being baptized in the name of Jesus, I guess that's different than believing he is the Savior? I guess that's more of doctrine question though.
Since you brought that scripture up though, it made me think of another one in Acts. Where some Jewish exorcist wanted the power of casting out demons, like he saw the apostles doing, and got the crap beat out of him.
In fact, that scripture in Mathew that says "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
That scripture scares a lot of people, like salvation isn't a sure thing. But I think maybe it's talking about unbelievers using his name.
I've seen these ghost chaser shows where they are having seances and actually use the name of Jesus or the "white light" to protect them before they call up the dead. So I'm kind of hoping Jesus is talking about stuff like that. And not like idiot believers like me.
Anyway, people like the power, as you pointed out, it's right in scripture. Damn. I just want to get through this life with a peaceful exit, like I'm sure MOST of us do.
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WordWolf
In this instance, I think what we were taught was correct. They believed and were saved.
What they didn't do was demonstrate any kind of sign-until someone else stepped in.
And yes, if someone's a degraded dirt-bag then is saved, but never changes his thinking
and conduct, he's still a degraded dirt-bag. Like Simon.
Acts 19:11-16
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
===============================================
Matthew 7:15-23.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
======================
Seems it's rather specifically about FALSE prophets, about those who made many
CLAIMS about doing the things of God, but were really workers of iniquity who
did not do what they claimed. (Sounds familiar, too.)
It has nothing to do with anyone attempting to be a Christian and trying to
walk as Christ walked.
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RottieGrrrl
Oh gosh WW: Thank you for clearing both things up. I can understand the Simon thing a lot better.
That one verse that is so terribly confusing about Jesus saying that not everybody who call's me Lord,etc...Well in context that sure makes a lot more sense. The thing is WHY don't the mainstream preachers get this? This is a verse that terribly frightens a lot of Christians, and whenever I hear this question being brought up via TV or radio, you hear a lot of mumbling and hmming and hawing from these "experts" but they pretty much just reinforce the belief that it's meant towards Christians. I don't know why I did not see this clearer just by reading it in context, I feel kind of stupid, but then again, I have to point to the "experts" who obviously can't answer a simple question either without confusing people.
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Steve Lortz
In Luke 6:46 Jesus said, "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
The force of this saying came home to me during the Momentus debacle. Leaders (one of whom has already been named on this thread) were treating people in some of the vilest ways possible, all in the name of the "Lord." They said it was okay if five percent of the people were harmed (my estimate was more like 20%) because it did so very much good for everybody else. Yet Jesus said the good shepherd goes out of his way to find the ONE sheep who has strayed from the other 99.
Jesus said "What you do to the least of these, you do to me."
People who put their selves into leadership positions are taking on responsibility. That means they have to RESPOND for what they've done...
I have tried to rid myself of as much TWI leadership baggage as I can. There will be that much less to be "tried as by fire" when the time comes.
Love,
Steve
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RottieGrrrl
Back in 2000, I knew a guy that "took" Momentus, and ended up in the hospital. It really broke him psychologically. When I was dabbling in my very brief...well...dabble, in CES at that time, JL recommended Momentus to me. I couldn't believe he was doing that, when he KNEW this guy was hospitalized, and when I mentioned it to this guy, he just shook his head and remarked, "So he's still pushing Momentus, sheesh."
I just tried looking up Momentus therapy, and the only link to it is dead. There are websites that talk about it, (all negative) but I can't find a live link where anyone is actually still in business selling or practicing this.
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WordWolf
Two possible answers.
A) The "experts" are experts at their organization's THEOLOGY, and ASSUME the Bible
matches up to it, so actually reading it is an afterthought. Their theology and their
understanding is based on preconceived notions they were taught, not the Bible.
(Hey, it's affected me, too. One day, I felt a lightbulb go off when I realized I was
thinking that the 2 resurrections spoken of in the future will be mirrors of each other
and identical in almost every way- whether or not the descriptions of them actually
mirror each other. Once I realized the word "damnation" in one verse is commonly
translated "judgement" most other places-and probably should be translated "judgement"
everywhere- I realized I was looking at them through preconceived notions based on
what I was taught.)
So, they are faced with verses they THINK they understand, but actually don't. and can't
answer them because their answers are based on what someone said and not the actual verse.
Ever hear someone use Psalm 2:8 as a missionary verse? vpw claimed they did- and one day,
I heard someone do it!
Psalm 2:8
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
I got the other people with me, who were visiting that church, giggling when I showed
them the verse that was cited- along with the verse that followed.
Psalm 2:8-9
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Those aren't missionary verses.
The other possibility is that some of them KNOW it's wrong, but WANT to read them that way,
because it's in their own best interests to scare the congregation, and frighten them into
"circling the wagons." They WANT to frighten Christians because it doesn't help gain new
Christians, but scared Christians are too scared to leave the congregation.
(We saw that in twi, who still uses it. Others used it long before vpw ever did.)
Perhaps different preachers do it for different things- some with good intentions but
clumsy execution, and others intending to scare the flock into flocking together.
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WordWolf
How well can you trust a group that's always changing their name-
as if they don't WANT people to learn about them?
Momentus has also been known as "Breakthrough" and "Lifespring."
What their current name is, I don't know, since they went through both
of those already and are using something else.
http://www.equip.org/articles/breakthroughmomentus/
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespring
"One Lifespring follower, Sue Hawkes, started a similar program, called Vistar, but it was unsuccessful. Lifespring training, once offered under a unified corporate umbrella, now appears in several guises world-wide delivered by differently-named companies. Some of these companies offering the training programs once offered by or based on Lifespring include Momentus; Insight Seminars; Resource Realizations; The Great Life Foundation, Visionworks; The Impact Trainings; Harmony Institute; Spectrum Trainings; Phoenix2000, Vistar/Serendipidity; Summit Education; Personal Dynamics; Choicenter; Millennium 3; Asia Works; Argentina Works; Essential Education; Rising Star Communications; Humanus Institute; and Wings Seminars
All sorts of different names, all to stay under the radar.
Oh, that mine enemy had stuck to one name at a time!
Matthew 18:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Luke 17:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
17 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
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RottieGrrrl
Oh my word wolf. I love you and I find you annoying because you actually get my brain a thinking. I need to think about this, I agree with your points, well taken my friend. But still...well, like I said, I'll respond to this a bit later lol. Okay, I think some guys are just LAZY. They are taken off guard and think they are like "the answer man" of the moment. So they have to come up with something...So without taking a breather, and saying, let me look at this scripture..they just come up off the cuff with some answer. I think that's part of it too.. Like I said, I need to digest some of this and think. Intelligence doesn't come naturally to me. lolololololol.
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Ham
If there is "power to be had".. I wonder why *mr* lynn currently needs fervent prayer, of others..
power that somehow is not so easy, to have..
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krys
Once you have seen and felt and are really familiar with the Original, it's not too difficult to spot the fake.
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Ham
The Original is not fake. The original is You.. well. Unless "you" is not true. You may ignore me. I'm into weird dang..stringing chairs..
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WordWolf
I think you've brought up a very good point.
I once had someone like that insult me because I refused to just rattle off an answer
to something I didn't know- instead, I said I was going to take it home and look some
things up. He, on the other hand, was convinced his no-pause, memorized answer-in-a-can
that was handed to him by his organization was correct. BTW, he wasn't correct, and a
much slower read actually would have shown that.
I've often found that coming back to something later means I'm more likely to have a
more intelligent response, and have to eat my words less. In fact, if given sufficient
time, I can come up with some rather neat, correct answers if I already have all the
information I need.
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah, well, I'll tell you Mr. WW. I'm still going through your stuff, and LIKE I TOLD YOU, I hate it because you are making my brain work, lol. But your words are not in vain, it's just taking awhile, just so you know. :)
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Steve Lortz
Once when I was a twig coordinator, one of my old grads was chewing me out because he had some kind of hare up his... behind. He wanted me to snap back at him, and I wasn't, so he started baiting me, "Where's all your knowledge of the Word? Where's all your spiritual wisdom now?"
I simply responded, "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer..."
That stopped him cold... It's Proverbs 15:28...
What a trip this thread has been! What memories have been evoked! What cans of worms have been opened up by explaining what "stringing chairs" meant!
Thank you, all!
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
that's so beautiful
--
let's knock the f'ing chair over and i don't know have sword fights with the butter knives
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GeorgeStGeorge
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