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ABS (yea or nay)


johniam
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Giving out of obligation - is just extortion.

Giving out of a thankful heart - is freeing.

And, though I have no Biblical evidence to support this, I feel that money given in love, from a thankful heart, achieves more than money given merely from obligation.

I know this thread is in context of tithing (money) but what about tithing YOUR TIME? Genuinely getting involved in people's lives in a helpful way - at Foodbank, hospices, hospitals, worthy charities? Involved in your church's outreach program (and I don't mean door knocking)?

What about giving your surplus THINGS - we have so much in material terms! How many coats, sweaters, pairs of shoes, etc do you have, and how many do you really need?

(I challenge myself...I reckon I could give away a tenth of my clothes and household clutter, and still have too much)

(Yep, I'm going to do some of that right now!)

Good point! Money isn't the only thing we can share or give.

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After over a decade of using the GSC, you know how to correctly use the "quote" system by now,

but it's obvious you refuse to do so CORRECTLY.

You melded your comments into mine, which makes it hard for people to see what it is I said,

and what comments you're interspersing.

That isn't fair to the person you're quoting, and it's not fair to those who try to read later what

you OR they wrote. Laziness, or intent to confuse the issues?

It's one or the other. I show you AND them more courtesy by making the effort to distinguish

between what I wrote and what you wrote.

Still doing it even after being called on it- in this case, by melding your comments with

Raf's comments.

Raf:

"Anyone who gives out of free will, whether it's one percent or 50 percent or more or less, is Biblically justified in doing so. The standard for giving in the New Testament for Christians is not a percentage, but a personal consideration based on faith, speech, knowledge, diligence and love. (Read ii Corinthians 8 for the build up to and follow through on this instruction)."

John:

"*Agreed! VP said in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that there are 3 things which justify one person giving money to another person. 1) for merchandise, 2) for service, and 3) out of love, which can only be opened from the inside, as I said in my first post, not out of coercion."

And we are all personally aware, by experience, that he often said ONE THING on paper in one place

that looked pious,

and ANOTHER THING in person or on tape that was self-serving.

All of us who were in twi were all fully aware that the Tenth/Tithe/ABS

was a REQUIRED 10%, required BY vpw, and "his" book that was used

to enforce this was REQUIRED reading at pfal, often required as homework

between Session 1 and 2 of pfal. vpw made it clear, and that was consistently

carried through the rank and file, that it was mandatory.

So, then, are you now REPUDIATING THAT TWI PRACTICE INSTITUTED BY VPW?

Are you now saying that the MANDATORY Tenth/Tithe/ABS vpw REQUIRED while

saying we should give out of love (but demanding we give no matter what)

was ERROR? It's a simple yes-no question as to whether you're saying that.

If you're NOT saying that, then it's hypocritical to claim this is all voluntary

while signing off on vpw's "it's voluntary on paper but in practice it's mandatory"

thing. But you're sending mixed signals and being unclear- possibly deliberately

to fog the issues, possibly accidentally because you refuse to admit what we

all knew THEN-that it was MANDATORY in twi and still is to this day no matter

what rhetoric says it is not.

Raf:

"Using someone's level of giving as a basis for criticizing him or her for not believing enough or not loving enough is an intrusion on that person's privacy. The Bible never instructs Christians to evaluate someone else's practice of giving. Only your own."

John:

"*I'll dispute you a bit on this one. Jesus told his disciples that a poor woman who gave 2 mites gave more than the pharissees, because she gave all her living while they only gave of their abundance. Maybe he wasn't "criticizing" their giving, but he definitely made a distinction."

*checks the account* He made a distinction, but that was hardly the institution of a doctrine.

He did not "use her level of giving" or "use the rich's level of giving" "as a basis for criticizing"

either her or the rich. There was no comment about how the rich didn't give enough, none about

how the rich weren't believing enough which is why they gave less, no CONFRONTATION nor

CRITICISM of ANY of the rich about what they didn't do.

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

There was no intrusion into their privacy. There was no instruction by Jesus of

"And you shall examine the rich and how much they give", no instruction of a procedure

to evaluate the giving of the widow OR the rich.

So, this account has nothing to do with what was said-and therefore is irrelevant

when trying to dispute it.

==================================

John:

"ABS is between individuals and God. I never heard VP blur this."

We did! vpw told the insiders-and thus, taped recordings of meetings for the Corps

and so on mentioned it- and vpw set the policy which his rank-and-file were required

to follow. Coordinators were instructed to address if ABS was absent or under 10%

with the locals-and they did. Doing it that way insulated vpw from being the obvious

face passing the orders. This made it a little less obvious- but most people were smart

enough to know that orders were INSTITUTED by vpw so those policies were HIS.

Under vpw, ABS was between individuals and twi.

John:

"LCM didn't just threaten people with catastrophe about ABS, he once ranted about people not renewing their way mag subscriptions after the free one year subscription after taking pfal. He says you have money for HBO and Cinemax, but not for the way mag. He was mad, too. It's almost comical to think about now. The only bad consequences I, personally, have ever heard about coming to people regarding ABS are leaders spending ABS money on personal stuff. Makes me wonder about the current state of twi."

lcm took bad practices HE WAS TAUGHT BY VPW and made them more overt,

more obvious, more obnoxious. vpw knew when to whisper something because he

didn't want to get caught saying or doing it. vpw knew when he was doing something

he should be embarrassed about, or would get criticism if caught doing- but lcm

thought vpw's doctrines were Divine, so he had no problems with making ANY of

them overt- which, in this case, made him TWICE the money-grubber vpw was.

And hearing that anyone in twi was caught embezzling money really should come

as no surprise by now.

John:

"In the fellowship I now attend, we got some financial help in 2006, when much of St. Louis was without power for 8 days, to cover the cost of staying in motels. I'm sure we weren't the only ones, too. Also, in twi, I'm told that 85% of ABS went to HQ and 15% stayed in the limb. Other way around in the current fellowship. Nothing wrong with using ABS money to help people who have a need."

So, then,

you're saying your current system is much better than the system

whose use vpw MANDATED?

I just want to be clear. You've endorsed both systems in the past,

and by definition, both can't be "the best" since one must be

better than the other, and in this case, one practice is

VERY different than the other.

This is NOT a hard question.

John:

"I like that you say, "Maybe I'm blessed for that, and maybe I'm not." In other words you trust God and you trust the people and organizations you give to and that's all you need to know and that's all anyone else needs to know. "

There's something you might be on your own about.

We learned-the hard way- that placing trust in the people and

the organizations was a setup for abused trust.

So, trusting the people-and making that "ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW"

is a setup for making the same mistakes ad infinitum.

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The 9/10 will go farther isn't a doctrine, it's HORSE SENSE! If God is really involved, then 1/10 will go farther.

The "9/10 will go farther" was DEFINITELY a doctrine.

That's why we can all quote the thing decades later, and so can you.

"If God is really involved" is a very big IF- and switches

"this is what God Almighty said to do, so He will back it up" -

and He did NOT say to do this, therefore He will not back it up-

with

"If God is really involved", then He will back it up-

which is the same mistake you keep making.

God is REQUIRED to follow doctrines He never made but YOU

assigned to Him. YOUR will be done.

John:

"Faith as a grain of mustard seed, remember? If God is really involved, everything is better."

Luke 17:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

This has nothing to do with a doctrine of giving 1/10 of your income,

nor is this a promise that, if you do, the remaining 9/10 will prosper further

than if you used all 10/10ths.

That was a doctrine taught by vpw in twi, and nobody can find it in

the Bible because it isn't there.

But it was a required practice of twi, a mandatory practice

set out by the doctrine.

"This doesn't compute for you because you no longer believe in God."

This doesn't compute for the devout Christians either,

because A) this doesn't follow logically from the verses you mentioned-

which is probably why you keep mentioning them BUT NOT POSTING THEM

B) this was never mandated by God Almighty, but by vpw and enforced

all through twi accordingly

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Summing up: please refrain from getting me involved in something that has nothing to do with me. I rather like my reading-and-no-posting existence in this forum and I would like to continue it that way.

Moderator's note: Hated to cut this post, seeing as it appears to be Mrs. Wolf's first. But she made reference to posts that have since been deleted (one violated more rules than we can count, and the others addressed the deleted post). We didn't want to delete her post entirely. Welcome to the Cafe, Mrs. Wolf. We hope to hear from you again.

Edited by modcat5
Mostly referred to posts that have since been deleted.
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WW, back off a bit. Please.

I rarely agree with John but he is entitled to his viewpoint, just as you are. You don't have to attack him at every instance.

As Ralph would say ... Peace! :knuddel:/>

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WW, back off a bit. Please.

I rarely agree with John but he is entitled to his viewpoint, just as you are. You don't have to attack him at every instance.

As Ralph would say ... Peace! :knuddel:/>/>/>/>

In virtually every instance, I've been refuting his positions and pointing out error.

I have NOT been making it personal. John's going out of his way to make it personal.

You think I'M the one that needs to be nicer here, the one actually going on the attack?

I know he's entitled to his viewpoint. But if he's posting here with obvious pro-vpw error,

I WILL call him on it. He's got a right to be wrong- but I have a right to point out he's

wrong, as well.

Moderator's Note: WordWolf is correct in what he's pointed out. He is also referring to posts that have since been deleted.

Edited by modcat5
Cutting quotes of a deleted post
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So..if I post an opinion you consider to be wrong...this constitutes an "attack"??? [deleted content]

Hello, Maddywolf. 148 posts and I saw none of them before today. I stand corrected.

Moderator's Note: disagreeing with a poster is not an attack. The post that was deleted WAS an attack. Deleted portions of THIS post constitute an attack.

Edited by modcat5
Explained in note.
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Here's the long and the short of it:

There is nothing in the Bible that says "9/10th's will go farther than 10/10th's"

(Adjust the verbiage to make it more Biblical if needed.)

It's just not the there. It's a clever phrase, no doubt, and a good marketing ploy because it appeals to human nature. But, Biblical? Nope. It just isn't.

Now, does that mean you can't give to a cause because that's what you want to do? Of course not. Give until it hurts if it makes you happy but don't attribute it to a Biblical mandate..

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I think Malachi 3:8-12 provides some Biblical justification for the notion that 9/10 goes farther with God's blessing on it than 10/10 does without.

Whether it is correct for Christian believers to appropriate that particular Old Testament promise is a larger issue that we will not settle in a message board, but just because an idea is not phrased a certain way in the Bible doesn't mean there's nothing in the Bible to support the idea.

For what it's worth, my belief is that the verse in Malachi is not talking about money at all. But who cares what I think. :)

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Here's the long and the short of it:

There is nothing in the Bible that says "9/10th's will go farther than 10/10th's"

(Adjust the verbiage to make it more Biblical if needed.)

It's just not the there. It's a clever phrase, no doubt, and a good marketing ploy because it appeals to human nature. But, Biblical? Nope. It just isn't.

Now, does that mean you can't give to a cause because that's what you want to do? Of course not. Give until it hurts if it makes you happy but don't attribute it to a Biblical mandate..

It's amazing that it's that simple,

and there's people unable or unwilling to see it.

[Portion deleted]

Edited by modcat5
Felt like it.
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WW, back off a bit. Please.

I rarely agree with John but he is entitled to his viewpoint, just as you are. You don't have to attack him at every instance.

As Ralph would say ... Peace! :knuddel:/>/>/>

Thank you. I appreciate this.

I'm responding to his deliberate provocation. He sees that as a personal attack. [Remainder of post deleted].

Moderator's Note: If you believe you are being provoked, report it. That WordWolf saw your "response" as a personal attack is reasonable. That anyone would think it wasn't a personal attack is not reasonable.

Edited by modcat5
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It's amazing that it's that simple,

and there's people unable or unwilling to see it.

They see conspiracies, they hear voices advocating murdering dead people,

they insult freely, but they can't see that.

WordWolf......yes, it really is that simple.

I always appreciate your insight and posts. You bring fair, objective analysis

to the threads that I've visited. Thanks.

One of the reasons why I, finally, decided to quit responding to the "strawman stuff"

was because it only was a diversion and seemed to draw in personal jabs to take

emphasis away from the topic. As you well know.

Keep posting your insights. I appreciate it.

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Ok, guys, I just got in trouble with my fellow mods myself, so I'm really not in a position to get all preachy...

But come on! I'm not calling mod attention to this thread because no one has reported it. You guys want to settle it by yourselves, then settle it. That does not mean continuing it publicly until one or both of you get tired.

I'm suspending judgment on WordWolf because there have been no complaints. I see that he interacts with JohnIAm A LOT, and to be honest, I don't read all his posts to John in detail. It sometimes requires an interest in the subject matter I don't have.

I did read JohnIAm's comment to ME in this thread, so I see he is perfectly capable of expressing disagreement without getting out of line. Post 30 is so far out of line... you can't even SEE the line from post 30. I could have moderated it. I could have asked someone else to moderate it. I left it alone.

So John, if you think WordWolf is harassing you, report it. But don't step into the gutter. Post 30 practically invited rebuke. I respect your intelligence enough that I don't think I have to spell it out for you.

This is an interesting topic of discussion. Let's try to stick to it.

Edited by modcat5
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Here's the long and the short of it:

There is nothing in the Bible that says "9/10th's will go farther than 10/10th's"

(Adjust the verbiage to make it more Biblical if needed.)

It's just not the there. It's a clever phrase, no doubt, and a good marketing ploy because it appeals to human nature. But, Biblical? Nope. It just isn't.

Now, does that mean you can't give to a cause because that's what you want to do? Of course not. Give until it hurts if it makes you happy but don't attribute it to a Biblical mandate..

When I give to something I no longer sit in anticipation of a material blessing then feel ripped off if I don't get it. It's pretty freeing actually compared to the way I lived when I was in TWI.

I still think there's a biblical mandate to give to the poor. But that's just they way I've decided to live my life. Someday like everyone else I'm going to check out of here. I want at least a part of my life to be a benefit to others. Even if it's just giving a pair of shoes or something. Lord knows there have been times when I've needed a hand and someone was there to help.

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I just had a Homer Simpson moment, one of those where he smacks his forehead and says, Doh!". :doh:/>

All these years we've been calling it Abundant SHARING. It wasn't sharing at all, it was GIVING.

Sharing is a two way street. ABS was a one way street. Everything went to HQ and nothing ever came back, nothing got shared.

Edited by waysider
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I just had a Homer Simpson moment, one of those where he smacks his forehead and says, Doh!". :doh:/>/>

All these years we've been calling it Abundant SHARING. It wasn't sharing at all, it was GIVING.

Sharing is a two way street. ABS was a one way street. Everything went to HQ and nothing ever came back, nothing got shared.

It was called 'sharing' because we were supposed to give of our abundance, not of our livelihood. Nobody in twi said give till it hurts. Even VP made fun of that phrasing.

I have some other thoughts on ABS. In 'lifestyle of a believer' VP had scathing words about gambling, citing it as the opposite of giving. This led some people to call investing in the stock market 'gambling'. Not true. Part of VPs criticism of gambling was that "there is no increase of wealth". What is increase of wealth? Best example is agriculture. One kernel of corn can yield 3 whole ears. THAT is increase. You plant, you reap. This can be done with money also. Any company listed in the NY stock exchange has established a track record of increase of wealth. It's not like a slot machine, where you put money in and IMMEDIATELY expect an increase. LCM once said that he thought some people ABSed with a gambler's mentality. Perhaps he was right on that one.

As I said earlier, and some have concurred, there is no biblical or spiritual pressure to give till it hurts. We're supposed to give cheerfully. Even LCM said whatever you do, don't give out of guilt. Whoops, look at the time. Later.

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It was called 'sharing' because we were supposed to give of our abundance, not of our livelihood. Nobody in twi said give till it hurts. Even VP made fun of that phrasing.

I have some other thoughts on ABS. In 'lifestyle of a believer' VP had scathing words about gambling, citing it as the opposite of giving. This led some people to call investing in the stock market 'gambling'. Not true. Part of VPs criticism of gambling was that "there is no increase of wealth". What is increase of wealth? Best example is agriculture. One kernel of corn can yield 3 whole ears. THAT is increase. You plant, you reap. This can be done with money also. Any company listed in the NY stock exchange has established a track record of increase of wealth. It's not like a slot machine, where you put money in and IMMEDIATELY expect an increase. LCM once said that he thought some people ABSed with a gambler's mentality. Perhaps he was right on that one.

As I said earlier, and some have concurred, there is no biblical or spiritual pressure to give till it hurts. We're supposed to give cheerfully. Even LCM said whatever you do, don't give out of guilt. Whoops, look at the time. Later.

John

You have a wonderful knack for twisting what was said. I never said that giving 'til it hurts was non-Biblical, I said that ABS is non-Biblical. That is a position I still maintain.

As to investing, neither one of them had a clue about prudent investing. This is evidenced by the massive blunders they made in property acquirement. But, here again, that issue is really a straw-man as this thread isn't about investing, it's about the practice of giving money to the ministry, above and beyond the customary 10% tithe.

edit: grammar

Edited by waysider
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It was called 'sharing' because we were supposed to give of our abundance, not of our livelihood. Nobody in twi said give till it hurts. Even VP made fun of that phrasing.

It was called "sharing" because we were supposed to THINK we weren't just handing over

money to vpw and twi. The idea was, we handed over money to them, and God Almighty

(not financially accountable to twi) would reimburse us in financial ways and possibly

other ways. So, they took, and someone else was supposed to reimburse.

As for whether or not we were to give of "our livelihood", that's a matter of SEMANTICS.

The "ABS" was a tenth/tithe that was called something else but was exactly that

anyway. By not limiting the name to a "tenth", he set it up so that the tenth was

MANDATORY and EXPECTED in twi, and MORE THAN A TENTH was expected but not

ENFORCED the way the tenth was. "If you really are thankful to God, you'll give more."

Who wanted to see themselves as unthankful to God-yet remain in twi?

So, people were convinced to give more. lcm just codified a practice he'd seen vpw

do off-the-record when he bumped the ABS requirement to 15%, to 20%, then

"the revelation changed" and it was 15% again. (With social pressure to give more.)

However, twi asked something respectable religious groups don't ask- they asked for

everything that would go towards savings. Naturally, they made up a term for it.

Based on a single account of a single incident that had nothing to do with it

(of course), vpw coined "plurality giving." The concept was simple. Cover all your

current expenses. ALL the money left over at the end of the pay cycle?

HAND THAT OVER TO TWI. In a technical sense, that's not

"giving of your livelihood" nor "giving until it hurts." However, it is still hurtful

and harmful to the giver if done the way they did it (totally different from the

Biblical account). Why is it hurtful and harmful? For the benefit of those

unaccustomed to thinking about how vpw's policies were harmful, I'll spell out

SOME of it.

It allowed for NO SAVINGS. What's wrong with that?

1) EMERGENCIES. When there's an emergency, a normal person goes into

the money they save for emergencies, and they have something to cover

that. It can go for some medical expense, loss of work, damage to a car

or other needed item that needs immediate repair or replacement,

and so on. The faithful "plurality giver" has NOTHING where others have

SOMETHING for emergencies. That's poor stewardship of funds.

So, what did the faithful "plurality giver" do in an emergency? He was

told God was supposed to supply it, and sometimes local twi Christians

would voluntarily help.

Naturally, someone's going to twist what I say and claim I said we

aren't supposed to help each other nor trust God. So, I shall explain

why THAT was wrong.

twi was taking the money, and claiming it would be reimbursed if needed

by God Almighty. He's not accountable to them,is not required to match

THEIR promises (which weren't HIS promises), He never signed off on

their promise, and He can't be held accountable if the money doesn't

appear.

It is good to trust God, it is foolish to remove prudent precautions and

trust God for every type of protection. That's why we wear seat-belts

and drive carefully, for that matter. Financially, it's no different.

2) Investment.

Where's the money for retirement? twi veterans are SUPPOSED TO

"work until they die." That's a quote from one of the higher-ups.

Other people (smarter Christians, non-Christians) set aside some money

so they have something for later. Not the "plurality giver." When

he retires, the money to put aside, whether large or small, isn't

with him, it's in a big pile twi accumulated from him.

What did twi do with that money?

They invested it so that when there's less money coming in,

they still have money.

In other words, twi convinces its people to take the money for

retirement, send it in to twi, then refuse to retire because they

have no money to retire-

then twi made a Retirement Fund out of it and twi's living

off of that now-while telling older Christians to just trust God

for the money- or live off non-twi family they were told to

spurn for decades for not being twi.

3) Nice things.

EVER treat your family to something nice?

Yes?

Well, under vpw's system, that's a violation-

since that wasn't a "need", you were supposed to send

that money in as "plurality giving."

If you're saying you NEVER treated your family,

I'm calling shenanigans on that.

Never had a nice dinner, gave a present for a

birthday/graduation/Ho-Ho,

never took them to a movie, bought a DVD,

video game, never got cable TV,

bought a nice toy, a piece of jewelry?

If you're insisting that, you're not being honest.

Anyone who was faithful to vpw's "plurality giving"

was hurting themselves and their family in the ways

I just explained. So, they did indeed "give till it hurt."

vpw was fond of relabeling things so people did things

while criticizing others for doing it- and he got away

with it because people trusted him and didn't look

closely enough to see he made cosmetic changes

and otherwise left in practice what benefited him-

when he wasn't instituting more practices like

"plurality giving."

I have some other thoughts on ABS. In 'lifestyle of a believer' VP had scathing words about gambling, citing it as the opposite of giving. This led some people to call investing in the stock market 'gambling'. Not true. Part of VPs criticism of gambling was that "there is no increase of wealth". What is increase of wealth? Best example is agriculture. One kernel of corn can yield 3 whole ears. THAT is increase. You plant, you reap. This can be done with money also. Any company listed in the NY stock exchange has established a track record of increase of wealth. It's not like a slot machine, where you put money in and IMMEDIATELY expect an increase. LCM once said that he thought some people ABSed with a gambler's mentality. Perhaps he was right on that one.

It's interesting that vpw would say things against gambling,

but had no problem himself visiting the racetracks.

Perhaps we're supposed to believe he visited them because

he liked horses and the ambiance.

One standard for vpw, one standard for everyone else.

Although what he said, if you're reporting it truthfully,

was all technically correct.

As I said earlier, and some have concurred, there is no biblical or spiritual pressure to give till it hurts. We're supposed to give cheerfully. Even LCM said whatever you do, don't give out of guilt. Whoops, look at the time. Later.

There's no Biblical pressure to "give till it hurts" nor for giving "of necessity."

II Corinthians 9:7 (KJV)

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This says BECAUSE God wants us to give cheerfully,

we should neither give with reluctance NOR OUT OF REQUIREMENT.

Why only cite part of a verse and not post it?

The entire concept of a required giving, a required Tithe/Tenth/ABS for Christians

contradicts this verse-when the entire verse is read.

If lcm said once not to give with guilt, he certainly was a hypocrite,

because he SCREAMED AND YELLED about people who were not

choosing to give 15%, 20%, and berated them for not

"plurality giving." He absolutely required people to give.

John

You have a wonderful knack for twisting what was said. I never said that giving 'til it hurts was non-Biblical, I said that ABS is non-Biblical. That is a position I still maintain.

As to investing, neither one of them had a clue about prudent investing. This is evidenced by the massive blunders they made in property acquirement. But, here again, that issue is really a straw-man as this thread isn't about investing, it's about the practice of giving money to the ministry, above and beyond the customary 10% tithe.

edit: grammar

Since vpw had a required 10% in practice as well as the "above 10%",

I'd say both the Tithe/Tenth and the giving money to the ministry above that

are both direct subjects of this thread.

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This morning I deleted two more posts.

Johniam, you MIGHT be surprised if you checked your private messages (and the timestamps).

***

Now, again, if you feel you are being harassed, report it. If you feel the GS Moderators are treating you as a second class citizen, you have three choices: a. complain to the moderators, b. put up with it, or c. sayonara.

There is no option D. All option D's are requests to make option C involuntary.

Clear?

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I thought it was Howard Allen. (Maybe they both said it.)

Yeah, they probably both said it. It was a common sentiment back in the day, as was the idea that life insurance was unnecessary.

Of course, like a lot of these things, it only applied to us , not them.

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