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Calling the REV a piece of propaganda developed by completely biased researchers with an agenda to promote a specific theology but insufficient academic credentials, who lacked to professional integrity to subject their proposed "translations" to disinterested, competent scholars in the field IS objective.

All of the above is true, indisputably. But interestingly, none of it discredits the REV. To discredit the REV, you need someone who knows a thing or two about translations and can explain if/why the REV is wrong about a translation (and "it disagrees with my theology" is not a sufficient reason to call it wrong).

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Calling the REV a piece of propaganda developed by completely biased researchers with an agenda to promote a specific theology but insufficient academic credentials, who lacked to professional integrity to subject their proposed "translations" to disinterested, competent scholars in the field IS objective.

All of the above is true, indisputably. But interestingly, none of it discredits the REV. To discredit the REV, you need someone who knows a thing or two about translations and can explain if/why the REV is wrong about a translation (and "it disagrees with my theology" is not a sufficient reason to call it wrong).

Question: Would inclusion of factual errors from other versions qualify or would that simply dilute its veracity?

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I now realize that my questions regarding STF and the REV will never be obectively answered on GSC. There are some of you who stick to biblical research that could have jumped in and pointed out problems on the REV but all I saw were a bunch of anti-twi and anti-twi off shoot folks dissing on the whole matter without any proof: did anyone post a specific problem with anything posted on the REV - if so, I missed it. All responses were just anti REV and all folks who work at STF. You have only spoken generalities and not specified anything in the REV you find fault with. You have not exhibited an ability to evaluate anything biblical on this forum thread, neither on the doctrinal forum when I asked questions. I had been told to be patient and take those questions to the correct forum and having done so, was met with the same antisms. I expected more from you knowledgable folks but all you provided were your crapping on folks and did not discuss the forum topic.

Your site provides nothing, I don't even think it provides a place for those folks leaving twi to express their views and receive comfort, in a years time: ain't seen it. Is not that the purpose of this site - HOW MANY NEW SUBSRCIBES HAVE YOU SEEN OF LATE?

As I have said before: this is an aging bunch of folks bitching about things 40 years in the past who are not capable of moving on in life. I don't think you all here at GSC care anymore about helping folks exiting twi, you just want to keep on bitching about stuff from your youth.

There are some great posts mostly by Steve Lotz but regretibley, one must wade through all the "anti" crap to get to it.

You can jack me off this site at any time, I really could care less. Mostly I only monitor this site to see what the doctrinal has to say: mostley, I learn but I can learn more by going elsewhere.

I have been here only a year and already I see less variety in posters: GSC, you are dying and after all your'e veteran posters die off, so will you.

GSC has a fantastic option to open its' doors to biblical discussions, you can't dis twi forever. Imagine, concepts from so many folks from differenct beliefs. NAH, GSC could care less about biblical truth or discusion of the topic, nor anymore about twi exiles (how many in the last year), it's a great site with alot of folks with decades of biblical knowledge - personally, I would hate to see it wasted.

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You may leave whenever you'd like. I bid you nothing but peace.

I don't beleive you RAF, I don't think you bid me peace; you hope to bid me farewell. In one year I have not seen GSC take into the fold or comfort a twi exit; the mission statement of GSC has become defunct. GSC has become a place for aging discontents to spew their diatrads. Do you really want to debate that observation?

GSC has a great opportunity to turn the corner (I have said this previously); I was met with some gnashing of teeth saying that. GSC is full of dishonesty, protecing its' own agenda; open thought on GSC is not acceptable if it opposes veteran beliefs.

Now, given that, why not add that to the new commer rule book? Actually, a good read of that says it all: stay in your place and walk on egg shells - don't p-off the vets.

RAF, read it; who on earth would want to stay on GSC after reading that "welcome" stuff. I will say: it's a very correct warning.

Edited by MRAP
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I'm sorry you feel that way though I understand why you might feel unwelcome. Personally, I hope you stay. Everyone's opinion is valued, though many times not agreed upon.

I think there is a certain type of stubbornness that comes with the whole TWI experience package. After all, that's what we were taught. Be stubborn. Resist any deviation from the program. Having done all, STAND! ("Get With The Program" probably resonates with your military background.)

This site is intended to expose the dark side of an organization we were all led to believe was "special". It wasn't/isn't. It's simply another cult, much like the thousands that have come to exist before it and the thousands that are likely to follow. We come from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences. Our opinions on any given matter are as varied as night is from day.

It's like trying to solve a giant jigsaw puzzle, only to discover someone has hidden some of the pieces. ("What happened to me?" "Why do I feel this way?" "Did I really see what I think I saw?" "Was I the only one this happened to?".... That kind of thing) Here, we try to find those pieces and put together a little bit more of the puzzle. We don't always succeed. Hopefully, the puzzle becomes just a little bit more discernible, though, as time moves on.

As it has been said, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." If that means you need to move on, then so be it. I've enjoyed our discourses.

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Let me be clear, pal.

You are only here because I made it available for new people to register after GSC's registration process became overrun with spambots.

You ASKED to join us. I did not quiz you on your views. I did not quiz you on your loyalty to Wierwille or your antagonism toward him. I did not quiz you on which offshoot you felt an affinity toward. I asked you one question and one question only: what's your interest in our forum?

And just like that, you were in.

I think the problem is, you thought you were doing us a favor. You were rude. You were condescending. And, shockingly, when one of our favorite posters got tired of you and behaved rudely toward you, we stood up to him on your behalf.

And for THAT you gave us grief.

You can whine and complain all you want about ticking off the regulars, but we stood up to the regulars on your behalf because we expect members of GSC to play nice.

Oh yeah, but we play favorites here.

You are welcome to stay.

You are welcome to post.

We deeply apologize for not offering you whatever it is you never asked us for. On behalf of the entire GSC, I aplogize for not presuming to know what you wanted or needed from us.

You asked us what we thought of the REV. Some of us gave our opinions. But you want an unbiased analysis. Why? An unbiased analysis of a Bible translation conceived in bias?

We are not trained seals, MRAP. If you don't get the answer you want on a subject, move onto another subject.

Or don't. We're not going to lose sleep either way.

But I do ask one favor: if you're going to make a gigantic holier-than-though spectacle of how you're just too open-minded snd spiritual for this place, or how we just don't deserve to have you around, kindly follow up on it my actually leaving.

No one's throwing you out, mind you. That's your call entirely.

It's just... well...

I'm not going to miss you.

And I really do bid you peace, but if you don't believe me, I can't honestly say I give a rat's foot. You're not the first "spiritual" "Christian" who was "too good" for the GSC, but if you're the last, I have to say it would be quite gratifying.

The decision to stay and be a part of this online community remains yours, as does the decision whether to be a twit about it.

Edited by Raf
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Nearly a year ago waysider provided good advice, move my questions regarding the REV to the doctrinal forum; I suppose that's why all the comments were just a negative spew against the REV/STF and did not identify anything specific/objective about the REV's translation, thus, nothing noting chapter and verse disagreements with the translations on the REV. I got it now, any further questions on the REV will be moved to the doctrinal forum and specifically identified as coming from the REV cause that's always been my concern, how accurate is the REV?

The 2d mistake was to have asked about the REV in a sub forum under the forum umbrella of twi; it took a bit of time to understand that when folks post within that forum, they are locked and cocked; objectivety is not part of the aiming process.

waysider, you did provide the correct advice and at the time I did not realize its' importance: belated thanks.

RAF, I thank you for your posts on this sub forum, for this reason: they motivated me to go back to the start of the sub forum and see what's the deal (actually, I wanted recourse)? It was only as an aside that I understood that since it was under the twi forum I was asking for the attacks and was also the reason I saw waysiders post/recommendation. RAF, I know that was not your intent but either way, it worked out cause I just could not understand why all the dumping on the REV without identification of the reasons why ((except for dislike for twi off shoots (STF) and JS)).

Trust me, it takes a bit of time to navigate GSC and to so many of you veterans, the whole thing seems obvious but to someone new, when you post something "incorrectly" in the wrong forum to begin with and anticipating responses that are relative to what you are expecting then the proverbial feces hits the swirling fan blades.

When I hear all the stay on thread "comments" it reminds me of the original Star Wars movie while attacking the battle star: "Stay on Target". Hopefully that correlation will help all posters - I have witnessed nearly all verterans here going off thread.

I will end since I am off thread.

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As one who 'bashes heads' with the 'mod squad' from time to time, my advice is to take a breather every now and then and enjoy a coffee and learn to agree to disagree !Again, something we were never able to do in twi. Also I am thankful I can semi-politely argue without having to be concerned about the phone ringing or the sound of jackboots walking up my driveway lol...enjoy the liberty and freedom :biglaugh:

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You get certain leeway when it's your own thread.

That's not my point: looking for a pass. I simply posted on the wrong forum and going through the following year, expected doctrinal type responses rather than bashing. Yes, the TWI forum is a bashing forum so go for it.

As David Bowie (real name Jones) said in the movie, "Labrynth", what's said is said.

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I see your point. What's say we lock this thread and if someone wants to post about the audacity of a group wanting to come up with its own Bible, they can start their own damn thread?

P.S. it's not about you getting a pass. It's about the difference between letting conversations flow freely v. letting them get out of hand.

Edited by Raf
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MRAP, you started this thread with comments about John 11. How's about you start a thread in Doctrinal or some other appropriate place, stating what your thoughts are, quoting the REV verses you want to discuss, and expounding with your own comments on the verse(s) you want to discuss?

Maybe that will engender a thread that stays more on topic and (as you seemed to want) to point out inconsistencies (or accuracies) on the REV version of that chapter.

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  • 1 year later...
On 3/11/2015 at 10:42 PM, MRAP said:

I would like some feedback from folks who have read the REV or who were even involved in the research. I realize that some folks on GSC have no (P) love for John.S but if you respond, I would appreciate it if you would keep it objective (I may be a newbie but have read past threads). If you want to get to a specific area, I would only suggest, chapter of 11 of the gospel of John regarding the raising of Lazarus.

MRAP, what is REV??  Is that a new Bible research paper??

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On 3/18/2015 at 4:19 AM, krys said:

MRAP: The persona with the frog avatar has a name. It is "Waysider". It wasbeyond rude for you to march in here and address him the way you did. "hey Kermit"...especially since you wanted something. You called him that several times. In future, please use your manners.

Thanks Krys; I thought Way's first name was Kermit.  I thought Way, and MRAP might have known each from TWI. 

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15 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

MRAP, what is REV??  Is that a new Bible research paper??

The REV.

"We have worked to keep the REV as a literal translation whenever appropriate, like the ASV or King James. It is not a “dynamic equivalent translation,” such as the NIV, although there are times when, to make good sense in English, we had to depart from a strictly literal translation. Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English."

The language they use to describe their translation screams Private Interpretation. "Whenever appropriate" according to whom?

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3 hours ago, Rocky said:

The REV.

"We have worked to keep the REV as a literal translation whenever appropriate, like the ASV or King James. It is not a “dynamic equivalent translation,” such as the NIV, although there are times when, to make good sense in English, we had to depart from a strictly literal translation. Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English."

The language they use to describe their translation screams Private Interpretation. "Whenever appropriate" according to whom?

Thanks Rocky!!

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On 2/21/2016 at 6:33 PM, MRAP said:

I now realize that my questions regarding STF and the REV will never be obectively answered on GSC. There are some of you who stick to biblical research that could have jumped in and pointed out problems on the REV but all I saw were a bunch of anti-twi and anti-twi off shoot folks dissing on the whole matter without any proof: did anyone post a specific problem with anything posted on the REV - if so, I missed it. All responses were just anti REV and all folks who work at STF. You have only spoken generalities and not specified anything in the REV you find fault with. You have not exhibited an ability to evaluate anything biblical on this forum thread, neither on the doctrinal forum when I asked questions. I had been told to be patient and take those questions to the correct forum and having done so, was met with the same antisms. I expected more from you knowledgable folks but all you provided were your crapping on folks and did not discuss the forum topic.

Your site provides nothing, I don't even think it provides a place for those folks leaving twi to express their views and receive comfort, in a years time: ain't seen it. Is not that the purpose of this site - HOW MANY NEW SUBSRCIBES HAVE YOU SEEN OF LATE?

As I have said before: this is an aging bunch of folks bitching about things 40 years in the past who are not capable of moving on in life. I don't think you all here at GSC care anymore about helping folks exiting twi, you just want to keep on bitching about stuff from your youth.

There are some great posts mostly by Steve Lotz but regretibley, one must wade through all the "anti" crap to get to it.

You can jack me off this site at any time, I really could care less. Mostly I only monitor this site to see what the doctrinal has to say: mostley, I learn but I can learn more by going elsewhere.

I have been here only a year and already I see less variety in posters: GSC, you are dying and after all your'e veteran posters die off, so will you.

GSC has a fantastic option to open its' doors to biblical discussions, you can't dis twi forever. Imagine, concepts from so many folks from differenct beliefs. NAH, GSC could care less about biblical truth or discusion of the topic, nor anymore about twi exiles (how many in the last year), it's a great site with alot of folks with decades of biblical knowledge - personally, I would hate to see it wasted.

MRAP, I usually try to stay out of arguments, because I find them to be non-productive.  However, I would like to respond to a few of your points.  I am fairly new here; I have been posting for around seven months.  Also, I think many of us are moving on with our lives; I know I am.  My life today is pretty good; I am a Disabled Navy Veteran, and I live in DC.  I had some great experiences in TWI, but I also had some terrible ones.  I love coming to the GSC, because it makes me think.  It helps me put my time in TWI in prospective(SP?).  Some of the people here at the GSC, had great times in TWI, and miss it.  Some of us had good, and bad experiences with TWI, and have learned to put them aside, as we move through life.  Some however, were used, abused, and exploited by VPW, and other leaders. I have read on various threads, how some of the women were raped by various "Men of God."  These women did not deserve this; the men took what they wanted, and left the women to fend for themselves. I cried when I read this; how could this happen to women who wanted to serve God??  As I continued to read various threads, I read about the serious problems some people had with LEAD.  Again, it made me cry; how could people who simply wanted to serve God be treated like this??  MRAP, in my view, the GSC is open to anyone who wants information about TWI.  Some of the information is positive; some of it isn't.  In my opinion, TWI is dangerous, an deceptive because they say one thing, and do something different. God forbid you get sick; they will kick your azz to the curb, no matter how long you worked there. The GSC warns people of the possible dangers of getting involved with any cult; it is easier to get in, than it is too get out.  I wish peace, and blessings to everyone involved with the GSC.

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On 2/21/2016 at 8:40 PM, waysider said:

I'm sorry you feel that way though I understand why you might feel unwelcome. Personally, I hope you stay. Everyone's opinion is valued, though many times not agreed upon.

I think there is a certain type of stubbornness that comes with the whole TWI experience package. After all, that's what we were taught. Be stubborn. Resist any deviation from the program. Having done all, STAND! ("Get With The Program" probably resonates with your military background.)

This site is intended to expose the dark side of an organization we were all led to believe was "special". It wasn't/isn't. It's simply another cult, much like the thousands that have come to exist before it and the thousands that are likely to follow. We come from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences. Our opinions on any given matter are as varied as night is from day.

It's like trying to solve a giant jigsaw puzzle, only to discover someone has hidden some of the pieces. ("What happened to me?" "Why do I feel this way?" "Did I really see what I think I saw?" "Was I the only one this happened to?".... That kind of thing) Here, we try to find those pieces and put together a little bit more of the puzzle. We don't always succeed. Hopefully, the puzzle becomes just a little bit more discernible, though, as time moves on.

As it has been said, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." If that means you need to move on, then so be it. I've enjoyed our discourses.

Way, the pieces are starting to fit, at least for me.  I wish the GSC had been around 40 years ago; perhaps I wouldn't have wasted 10 years of my life in TWI.

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