wheres your proof ! i never saw any such thing. i was in the way in jackson mississippi in 1980-1981 in a fellowship run by 2 beautiful women in their mid 20's , i was wow in clinton iowa 1981-1982 with another guy and 2 beautiful women , i went back to jackson in 1982-1983 and lived with a corps family , i was wow 1983-1984 in cheyanne wyoming with 2 guys , in 1984-1985 i was in virginia beach in a young corps womans fellowship , in 1985-1986 i was in atlanta in a corp guys fellowship , in 1986-1987 i was in houston in a corp families fellopwship , in 1987 i was in west hollywood in Dennis D. fellowship and lived in several places in los angeles , in 2003-2004 i was way disciple in hoover alabama , in 2004 i went back to los angeles and have ben in about 7 different fellowships in los angeles and over all those years did and do lots of witnessing with all kinds of different people and no one ever used sex or attraction or coercion or anything else to sign people up for the class. all we ever did and do is speak the WORD to people. this thing about using sex to sign people up for the class is a lie from whoever started it. i dont care if you want to bad mouth the ministry or air your anger at some leader that did you wrong like was done to me but i will not be silent about outright lies.
Waysider......I was wondering if you would tell a little more about the "Murders" on the WOW field which are documented. Just interested in how this could happen and what happened to make this an occurrence on the WOW field. (not asking for names) Some of these things I've heard are just beyond my understanding.
Waysider......I was wondering if you would tell a little more about the "Murders" on the WOW field which are documented. Just interested in how this could happen and what happened to make this an occurrence on the WOW field. (not asking for names) Some of these things I've heard are just beyond my understanding.
Thanks.........
He might have been referring to Corps student who were raped or killed as a result of
hitchhiking, which was required for the Corps. No, he was talking about the
I witnessed the "sex sells": When your WOW branch leader specifically wears a low cut and very tight dress at the Sunday night branch meetings, where more of her boobs are exposed as to being hidden - I would call that as being sexual marketing.
When the next year's WOW branch leader is hitting on the twig leaders, that's a bit sexual.
Both of these women were in their interim corp year - I did not bite, my friend, a younger twig leader, took the bait - it screwed up his marriage.
Was that twi induced, maybe the former but the later was just plain a horney girl, IMHO.
Either way: I lost confidence in corp folk, they were no more spiritual as I.
Strangely though, from two different corp, each of them used the same quote: "your bucking God!" when ever there was disagreement with them.
I read earlier, time an place (proof) of this sex crap, well: just send me a private note via the GSC email option. I have names, times and places but not so sure that would be wise for me to divulge in today's litigation environment. If each or either is ol'e corp and has now a need for $, I could see a suite coming my way.
"Was that twi induced, maybe the former but the later was just plain a horney girl, IMHO."
We were all young. I'm sure there was a lot of non-TWI initiated physical activity taking place, just like everywhere else in the world. I know for a fact, though, that many instances were TWI sanctioned and approved. When a young lady and her TWI leader fiancé hide their relationship from new recruits and conspire to get them to sign the green card by having the young lady lead the new recruits on romantically until the green card is signed (rinse and repeat), there isn't much doubt about what's going on. It went on a whole lot more than some people care to admit.
Yes, waysider, at least in my years on the field we had one day off a week. That's one way to minimize a lucid relationship with a non-twi person - if I follow the logic, 1 day vs 6 days, then sex within the fold is more available but I find that not only inappropriate but like screwing up the mission that you are on, also, a bit incesstial.
Hey, follow up that discorse after having watched the CF&S seminar - like a Saturday night porn video.
The big question, you put all these restrictions on all these young and viral WOW's - one of the first things I was told on the WOW field by my branch leader was that masterbation was acceptable - that was a bit strange since about two years earlier at a camp fire in NC vpw stated that the original sin by Adam was masterbation. I later was told that was true then but for us it was OK.
My branch leader (I was in here familly) told me it was OK to seek sex but that she could not tell everyone that since they would refer to their natural whoring ways. Hey, I wanted her to tell me who those girls were.
In all the hind sight I "believe" that twi wanted folks to fornicate within the fold and marry in order to increase the twi numbers: primarily that it would take both to agree to leave twi (one will always want to stay)or through offspring if both decide to stay.
Later on in my military career and also a civilian medical technologist career I witnessed numerous episodes where sexual relationships ruined the careers of folks and affected missions.
".....about two years earlier at a camp fire in NC vpw stated that the original sin by Adam was masturbation."
Finally, I've *met* someone who heard the same teaching I did. I heard it in CF&S in about 1974. There was a bit more added to it, as well, by that time.
"In all the hind sight I "believe" that twi wanted folks to fornicate within the fold and marry in order to increase the twi numbers: primarily that it would take both to agree to leave twi (one will always want to stay)or through offspring if both decide to stay."
In FellowLaborers, we were not allowed to date outside the program and needed special permission to leave the compound for anything personal. It was never written or stated directly but we were expected to marry Way believers, preferably at the same level of commitment.(ie: advanced class grad, leadership program grad, etc.)
".....about two years earlier at a camp fire in NC vpw stated that the original sin by Adam was masturbation."
Finally, I've *met* someone who heard the same teaching I did. I heard it in CF&S in about 1974. There was a bit more added to it, as well, by that time.
"In all the hind sight I "believe" that twi wanted folks to fornicate within the fold and marry in order to increase the twi numbers: primarily that it would take both to agree to leave twi (one will always want to stay)or through offspring if both decide to stay."
In FellowLaborers, we were not allowed to date outside the program and needed special permission to leave the compound for anything personal. It was never written or stated directly but we were expected to marry Way believers, preferably at the same level of commitment.(ie: advanced class grad, leadership program grad, etc.)
I heard that same teaching about the original sin but it was the revised '75 rendition. I didn't see how VP reached his conclusion but I was told that that was because I didn't have the scope of The Word that VP had.
I heard that same teaching about the original sin but it was the revised '75 rendition. I didn't see how VP reached his conclusion but I was told that that was because I didn't have the scope of The Word that VP had.
He prefaced that particular part of the class by saying "I can't give you a scripture reference, you'll just have to trust me." (paraphrased somewhat) Then, he implied heavily that he had gotten the information by revelation. <_<
He also said that "Eve partook of the *fruit*".
I know that's bound to get a few "ewwww!" responses but that's what he said.
I have no idea what this has to do with Way Corps numbers but it seemed like we were on a roll.
It was a camp fire, the night after pfal session 11 and I asked vpw a question: What was the original sin? VPW stated that it was masterbation (by Adam) - and then he/vpw looked right into my eyes and said: "Does that bother you", I said, "I don't know sir". He just started off with a song after that.
VPW taught sessions 10 and 11 in life and during session 10 a guy was reaching to his shirt pocket and VPW got irate, very irate, thinking the guy was reaching for a smoke and then VPW said to him: "Nobody smokes when I am teaching" he said he wasn't but vpw was never wrong. Some guys from the back came in and took the guy outa the back of the tent.
At that time I should have followed my instincts but did not. After the camp fire I should have followed my instincts but I did not.
A few years later I sat around a camp fire with vpw (he was on a fishing trip in Wisconsin), it reminded me of that camp fire in NC; I said nothing to him that evening that I recall. His mannerisms reminded me of the way he held himself years before - he was an actor. Then again, he was fishing in Wisconsin and most folk fishing the walleye run were half in the bag - I knew that.
Now, I follow my instincts. I should have done that soon after but did not.
My life and my mistakes are on me, I don't blame vpw or twi for any of them, I knew better and did not act appropriately.
Yeah, why don't we just let this one die. Sure, it's a cult. Always has been. No godly deliverance, just bondage. Whatever,
Amen
You can continue to disbelieve it if you choose. No one can force you to accept that it's true. Fact is, though, "date and switch" was actually quite commonplace, especially whenever and wherever there were quotas to be met. (It wasn't called "date and switch" at the time.) You need not look any farther than the pages of GSC to find firsthand testimony to that effect. I, myself, am a product of it. You say you never personally witnessed it being used. I have no reason to disbelieve your experience.
One thing you should take into consideration is that you only saw a very small part of what took place. Yes, I understand that three *tours of duty*, so to speak, may seem like a lot, but it only represents a tiny fraction of what went on.
In regard to the physical violence you experienced, I'm sorry you were treated that way . No one deserves to have that happen to them. Again, I understand you never personally saw it, but there was plenty of physical violence, along with psychological abuse in The Way. In fact, there are even documented cases of murder (yes, murder) that happened on the W.O.W. field. Additionally, there was a lot of domestic violence, child abuse and sexual abuse that, although not directly sanctioned by The Way, was an indirect product of some of the distorted doctrines and lifestyle promoted by the organization. Wierwille , himself, is known to have drugged and then raped many young women at HQ and other locations. Some have come forth to give their testimony here. One has even written a book that you can read about on the front page of this site.
You may not realize it, but VPW had thug-like bodyguards to insure his safety. One top leader even kept a gun in the teaching podium at HQ in case trouble should erupt during Sunday Night Service. You can read about these things on the front page of this site, also, from firsthand witnesses.
Like yourself, many people are overwhelmed, flabbergasted to learn of these things for the first time. Much of it has been swept under the rug for a very long time. It's a lot to take in all at once. The purpose of GSC is to expose these ugly truths to the light of day for all to see.
I saw on LinkedIn the other night that the current director of the Way Corps is Chandler Greene, son of Bill and Marcia Greene. He has a PharmD degree, enabling him to be a pharmacist, yet his current post is Way Corps Director. Just how many people are IN the Way Corps these days? How many were in the last graduating class?
It wasn't an accredited degree at any stage previously, so snowball's chance that it's accredited now.
If someone already has an accredited degree, then they get a "bachelor's degree" from TWI. If the candidate doesn't have a degree already, they get an "associate degree" or some such.
How does this character say he got his "degree" 2010-2012? It's supposed to be four years with an apprentice year (in the field, raising Corps sponsorship), and a practicum year (running classes) as well as two years in rez.
FWIW, we qualified for degrees in Manipulative Studies, with majors in Terror Tactics and other classes in Fear-mongering and in Sexual Abuse.
I saw on LinkedIn the other night that the current director of the Way Corps is Chandler Greene, son of Bill and Marcia Greene. He has a PharmD degree, enabling him to be a pharmacist, yet his current post is Way Corps Director. Just how many people are IN the Way Corps these days? How many were in the last graduating class?
as physically demanding as the way corps program is - it makes sense the director is a pharmacist - so he can prescribe performance enhancing drugs.
just bring your Rx right up to the counter next to the Kool-Aid display
Thanks for the number estimates. I had really just meant in-residence Corps because I had forgotten that the Corps Coordinator would be in charge of all the Corps still left, not just the ones in-residence. Pitiful numbers. Good thing people are getting smarter!
Yes, they are! Sometimes the Internet can be a good source of information. Nowadays, people can read about TWI, on the 'Net. 40 years ago, I had no idea of how evil it was, and probably still is. VPW would have hated the Internet; his evilness would have been exposed to the world. People would have left much sooner than they did if they had known about his lust, and greed.
Sure, in marketing sex sells. I doubt that in your fast-food scenario,however, you had the girls flirt specifically with, or go out with people to bring them in as customer.
But your assertion that sex and sex appeal as good marketing is well taken. It just shows that the mentality of TWI and you is to market supposed biblical teaching as a product, for the sole purpose of driving sales.
If you think that's okay, then you were in good company in TWI. Personally, it's not the way I would prefer to represent God. In the Bible, He is all about bringing people to repentance and having a relationship with them. He is also all about building moral character.
Promoting a ministry with an appeal to one's lusts sort of goes against all of that, but that's just my opinion. You go ahead and promote your religion, ideals or whatever anyway you wish.
Broken Arrow, you are so right!! I never realized how morally bankrupt so many of the leaders in TWI were, until I came to the GSC. I had no idea of how rampant the abuse of women was, nor did I have any idea of how many of us were being exploited. I can assure you, it was never talked about, or discussed in any of the Twigs I attended, and I attended a number of them. I had no inkling of how corrupt TWI was, until I came to the GSC. But in all honesty, I met some wonderful people in TWI, and had some great times. But, even when I was in, I had the sense that things were not right. I wish I had left sooner than I did, but I was young and dumb.
The affairs going on between differn't married couples at family campus was enough for us to check out of the 'hotel'
Allan, thank God you and your wife got out. From what I have read here at the GSC, many couples paid a huge price, in so many different ways, for staying in.
I saw on LinkedIn the other night that the current director of the Way Corps is Chandler Greene, son of Bill and Marcia Greene. He has a PharmD degree, enabling him to be a pharmacist, yet his current post is Way Corps Director. Just how many people are IN the Way Corps these days? How many were in the last graduating class?
Why would he want to work for TWI, if he has a degree in Pharmacy?
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Tzaia
Maybe only 2 at a time...when it came to LCM. There was a bit of denial on my part concerning the "date and switch" until I actually witnessed it first hand and spent a fair amount of time telling t
Twinky
It wasn't an accredited degree at any stage previously, so snowball's chance that it's accredited now. If someone already has an accredited degree, then they get a "bachelor's degree" from TWI.
WordWolf
Any narcissist who finds other people getting "his" spotlight- especially one who finds their skill in an area exceeds his. Like, say, he's an amateur musician who can't sing and they're professi
Allan
The affairs going on between differn't married couples at family campus was enough for us to check out of the 'hotel'
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johniam
Selective reasoning. That's all it is.
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WordWolf
I don't know if shiftthis' reasoning is "selective" as much as it is UNBIBLICAL
and UNSOUND.
This whole "I didn't see it so it didn't happen" thing is so obviously faulty
that no court in the US would accept it as evidence-
you don't "prove a negative." The affirmative has to make its case.
Several eyewitnesses is generally sufficient to prove a case of something
happening. Several came forward here and now, and far more came forth
over the decades, just counting the ones posting here.
Both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of accepting the word of 2-3 witnesses as
"established."
Matthew 18:16King James Version (KJV)
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1King James Version (KJV)
13 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I'm not sure what it says about a person who would discount both of those
to defend a religious leader or a religion, but I know it's not a good thing.
By shiftthis' silly illogic of "I didn't see it so it didn't happen," we can
equally say that shiftthis never went into the Corps. I didn't see him there,
so it didn't happen! But really, what can be done when someone's
being that silly? (Other than misrepresent me and take me out of context
to try to make me sound equally silly, that is-that's dishonorable and dishonest.)
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newlife
Waysider......I was wondering if you would tell a little more about the "Murders" on the WOW field which are documented. Just interested in how this could happen and what happened to make this an occurrence on the WOW field. (not asking for names) Some of these things I've heard are just beyond my understanding.
Thanks.........
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WordWolf
He might have been referring to Corps student who were raped or killed as a result of
hitchhiking, which was required for the Corps. No, he was talking about the
deaths on the WOW field?
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waysider
I'm not too good at doing searches but I did find THIS one. There are others if I remember correctly.
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MRAP
I witnessed the "sex sells": When your WOW branch leader specifically wears a low cut and very tight dress at the Sunday night branch meetings, where more of her boobs are exposed as to being hidden - I would call that as being sexual marketing.
When the next year's WOW branch leader is hitting on the twig leaders, that's a bit sexual.
Both of these women were in their interim corp year - I did not bite, my friend, a younger twig leader, took the bait - it screwed up his marriage.
Was that twi induced, maybe the former but the later was just plain a horney girl, IMHO.
Either way: I lost confidence in corp folk, they were no more spiritual as I.
Strangely though, from two different corp, each of them used the same quote: "your bucking God!" when ever there was disagreement with them.
I read earlier, time an place (proof) of this sex crap, well: just send me a private note via the GSC email option. I have names, times and places but not so sure that would be wise for me to divulge in today's litigation environment. If each or either is ol'e corp and has now a need for $, I could see a suite coming my way.
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waysider
"Was that twi induced, maybe the former but the later was just plain a horney girl, IMHO."
We were all young. I'm sure there was a lot of non-TWI initiated physical activity taking place, just like everywhere else in the world. I know for a fact, though, that many instances were TWI sanctioned and approved. When a young lady and her TWI leader fiancé hide their relationship from new recruits and conspire to get them to sign the green card by having the young lady lead the new recruits on romantically until the green card is signed (rinse and repeat), there isn't much doubt about what's going on. It went on a whole lot more than some people care to admit.
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MRAP
Yes, waysider, at least in my years on the field we had one day off a week. That's one way to minimize a lucid relationship with a non-twi person - if I follow the logic, 1 day vs 6 days, then sex within the fold is more available but I find that not only inappropriate but like screwing up the mission that you are on, also, a bit incesstial.
Hey, follow up that discorse after having watched the CF&S seminar - like a Saturday night porn video.
The big question, you put all these restrictions on all these young and viral WOW's - one of the first things I was told on the WOW field by my branch leader was that masterbation was acceptable - that was a bit strange since about two years earlier at a camp fire in NC vpw stated that the original sin by Adam was masterbation. I later was told that was true then but for us it was OK.
My branch leader (I was in here familly) told me it was OK to seek sex but that she could not tell everyone that since they would refer to their natural whoring ways. Hey, I wanted her to tell me who those girls were.
In all the hind sight I "believe" that twi wanted folks to fornicate within the fold and marry in order to increase the twi numbers: primarily that it would take both to agree to leave twi (one will always want to stay)or through offspring if both decide to stay.
Later on in my military career and also a civilian medical technologist career I witnessed numerous episodes where sexual relationships ruined the careers of folks and affected missions.
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waysider
".....about two years earlier at a camp fire in NC vpw stated that the original sin by Adam was masturbation."
Finally, I've *met* someone who heard the same teaching I did. I heard it in CF&S in about 1974. There was a bit more added to it, as well, by that time.
"In all the hind sight I "believe" that twi wanted folks to fornicate within the fold and marry in order to increase the twi numbers: primarily that it would take both to agree to leave twi (one will always want to stay)or through offspring if both decide to stay."
In FellowLaborers, we were not allowed to date outside the program and needed special permission to leave the compound for anything personal. It was never written or stated directly but we were expected to marry Way believers, preferably at the same level of commitment.(ie: advanced class grad, leadership program grad, etc.)
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Broken Arrow
I heard that same teaching about the original sin but it was the revised '75 rendition. I didn't see how VP reached his conclusion but I was told that that was because I didn't have the scope of The Word that VP had.
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waysider
He prefaced that particular part of the class by saying "I can't give you a scripture reference, you'll just have to trust me." (paraphrased somewhat) Then, he implied heavily that he had gotten the information by revelation. <_<
He also said that "Eve partook of the *fruit*".
I know that's bound to get a few "ewwww!" responses but that's what he said.
I have no idea what this has to do with Way Corps numbers but it seemed like we were on a roll.
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MRAP
It was a camp fire, the night after pfal session 11 and I asked vpw a question: What was the original sin? VPW stated that it was masterbation (by Adam) - and then he/vpw looked right into my eyes and said: "Does that bother you", I said, "I don't know sir". He just started off with a song after that.
VPW taught sessions 10 and 11 in life and during session 10 a guy was reaching to his shirt pocket and VPW got irate, very irate, thinking the guy was reaching for a smoke and then VPW said to him: "Nobody smokes when I am teaching" he said he wasn't but vpw was never wrong. Some guys from the back came in and took the guy outa the back of the tent.
At that time I should have followed my instincts but did not. After the camp fire I should have followed my instincts but I did not.
A few years later I sat around a camp fire with vpw (he was on a fishing trip in Wisconsin), it reminded me of that camp fire in NC; I said nothing to him that evening that I recall. His mannerisms reminded me of the way he held himself years before - he was an actor. Then again, he was fishing in Wisconsin and most folk fishing the walleye run were half in the bag - I knew that.
Now, I follow my instincts. I should have done that soon after but did not.
My life and my mistakes are on me, I don't blame vpw or twi for any of them, I knew better and did not act appropriately.
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citygirl99
Amen
Thank you for speaking the truth.
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citygirl99
What an incredible waste.
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citygirl99
Saw this on LinkedIn in Chandler Greene's account:
The Way International
Bachelor of Arts, Theology/Theological Studies
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Twinky
It wasn't an accredited degree at any stage previously, so snowball's chance that it's accredited now.
If someone already has an accredited degree, then they get a "bachelor's degree" from TWI. If the candidate doesn't have a degree already, they get an "associate degree" or some such.
How does this character say he got his "degree" 2010-2012? It's supposed to be four years with an apprentice year (in the field, raising Corps sponsorship), and a practicum year (running classes) as well as two years in rez.
FWIW, we qualified for degrees in Manipulative Studies, with majors in Terror Tactics and other classes in Fear-mongering and in Sexual Abuse.
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T-Bone
as physically demanding as the way corps program is - it makes sense the director is a pharmacist - so he can prescribe performance enhancing drugs.
just bring your Rx right up to the counter next to the Kool-Aid display
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OldSkool
Maybe this helps not sure how cureent my info is now, but should point you in the right direction.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes, they are! Sometimes the Internet can be a good source of information. Nowadays, people can read about TWI, on the 'Net. 40 years ago, I had no idea of how evil it was, and probably still is. VPW would have hated the Internet; his evilness would have been exposed to the world. People would have left much sooner than they did if they had known about his lust, and greed.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes, he is. Same S--t, just a different place.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Broken Arrow, you are so right!! I never realized how morally bankrupt so many of the leaders in TWI were, until I came to the GSC. I had no idea of how rampant the abuse of women was, nor did I have any idea of how many of us were being exploited. I can assure you, it was never talked about, or discussed in any of the Twigs I attended, and I attended a number of them. I had no inkling of how corrupt TWI was, until I came to the GSC. But in all honesty, I met some wonderful people in TWI, and had some great times. But, even when I was in, I had the sense that things were not right. I wish I had left sooner than I did, but I was young and dumb.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Allan, thank God you and your wife got out. From what I have read here at the GSC, many couples paid a huge price, in so many different ways, for staying in.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Why would he want to work for TWI, if he has a degree in Pharmacy?
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