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skyrider

The Gauntlet of Classes and Indoctrination

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. . .

Wierwille NEVER looked at the roa thru the prism of the way corps.

He only saw himself teaching the masses "the word of God."

. . .

Sounds like he belonged on television. Maybe he would have done less damage?

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So story I heard is Martindale is getting 65 grand a year.A house.Name still on Gunnison.Talk about a golden parachute.

Someone who deceives.tears down will get what is comin'.Your abundant sharing at work

Everything we did was to support this?Thank God I got out.God had to work overtime it seems but I ended up ok.....@@ me off as so many did not fare as well

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Oakspear......well, "the reason for corps [ushers] to suit up in the big top tent" was because

[drum roll.......] the word was being taught and wierwille was marketing a product.

He wasn't concerned about OUR comfort.....or the logic of an August sweltering tent. Wierwille

set the precedent of "being your best for God" and everyone fell in line.

Yeeeeeaaaaahhhh....that's the ticket!

I've lived in your home state for 35 years now (still haven't started rooting for the football team!) and have gotten used to people dressing "formally" by putting on clean blue jeans and a checked shirt! :evilshades:

Just to be clear.....

Most of the early roa had less structure.....and more time to just hang out.

Absolutely

I started going to ROAs in 1978 and I had fun. I enjoyed the fellowship, the hanging out, and didn't half mind the evening teaching.

I was not active between 1983 and 1990 and was surprised to find how structured everything had become

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I started going to ROAs in 1978 and I had fun. I enjoyed the fellowship, the hanging out, and didn't half mind the evening teaching.

I was not active between 1983 and 1990 and was surprised to find how structured everything had become

Yeah.....those early ROAs were fun and carefree throughout the day. You could grab breakfast

and sit for an hour with your former WOW-sister and talk about the exciting God-moments and

what had transpired in your lives since last year. Then, stop by a 'Family Table' and listen

to someone play a song that they'd just written, or a poem.....or a deliverance story.

Nothing was scripted.....and the dam-n corps weren't everywhere micromanaging everything!!!

Years later, even the flag raising and early morning prayer was wayspeak. It was all surreal

like "invasion of the waybot-snatchers" or something. The whole atmosphere was controlled by

the spiritually-correct policemen and warnings/mini-confrontations were issued. And then, in

1981....a 7th corps guy suggested that 11:00am twigs would be a neat idea for believers to

check-in with one another.......but these ROA TWIGS became full-scale ego-boosters for field

corps to teach for a dam-n 45 minutes. Uuuuuuuuugh.

Yeah....like we all want to sit and listen to ANOTHER REPETITIVE TEACHING.

Heck, after 10, 12, or 15 years in twi......most went to roa to see their friends and

loved ones, not to hear "the word" taught from main stage. But from the corps perspective,

it was two-weeks of work, confrontation, anxiety, and challenges to sleep in a tent and wear

a pressed suit that night. Good riddance to the roa.

Looking back.....I seriously doubt whether wierwille, martindale, geer, rivenbark and any other

narcissist figured out why we enjoyed the annual pilgrimage to the rock of ages.

Did they really think it was all about them? :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/>

.

Edited by skyrider

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Some random thoughts:

Corps go full-time staff. When I first heard that, I thought, If this ISN'T revelation, it's the dumbest thing I can think of. Turning one of your biggest revenue sources into a revenue sink, overnight, certainly flouted "worldly" wisdom. As WordWolf pointed out, there COULD have been some non-obvious benefit (increased classes, book sales, etc.); but, of course, none of that ever materialized.

Fun vs. rigid ROA. I took PFAL in 1982 and the Advanced Class in 1983, so I didn't attend a ROA until 1984. I had signed up for Bless Patrol and volunteered for the "Way Chorale." In order to make rehearsals and the "shows" (evening meetings) I traded most of my BP shifts for the late night ones. Still, I was happy to be there. I didn't mind sitting up all night in a drizzle, because I felt I was actually blessing other people. And there was still plenty of free time in the day to socialize. In later years, people from different branches were "assigned" duties (BP, kitchen, bookstore) without any say in it from the people involved. I still enjoyed hanging with friends, but the whole deal seemed to controlled. I have some good memories of ROA, but I'm not sad that it's gone.

George

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Fun vs. rigid ROA. I took PFAL in 1982 and the Advanced Class in 1983, so I didn't attend a ROA until 1984. I had signed up for Bless Patrol and volunteered for the "Way Chorale." In order to make rehearsals and the "shows" (evening meetings) I traded most of my BP shifts for the late night ones. Still, I was happy to be there. I didn't mind sitting up all night in a drizzle, because I felt I was actually blessing other people. And there was still plenty of free time in the day to socialize. In later years, people from different branches were "assigned" duties (BP, kitchen, bookstore) without any say in it from the people involved. I still enjoyed hanging with friends, but the whole deal seemed to controlled. I have some good memories of ROA, but I'm not sad that it's gone.

Yeah....when I say that, for me, the roa ceased being fun in 1981 my perspective is one of way corps

and having ALREADY been there for a week in the hot, humid, work-slog drudgery of corps week.

Oftentimes, corps....if seen just "hanging out during roa" were requested by those roa-overseers in those

golf carts to help work in an overburdened area [ie--food prep, chicken wagon, trash detail, put down plywood

for mud areas, etc]. See, the corps were ALWAYS on duty.....and it was THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to do whatever

was necessary to make the roa run smoothly [wierwille's orders].

And.....even though corps did the service with a smile, the dissent and contention was building. With each

passing year, corps grads were moving on with higher education, careers, and family and there was a major

divide growing between those corps who were ON TWI PAYROLL [and some riding around in golf carts] and those

who drove a thousand miles on their OWN EXPENSE and gave 15 days of time/labor to be in Ohio EACH YEAR.

Then, get back home, get to work, etc. etc. and have twig meetings, branch events, twig coordinator meetings

and corps meetings to attend. That's why....by the 1986 Corps Week and chris geer reading his pop paper,

there was a seismic shift in twi THAT HAD BEEN BUILDING FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

The 1984 roa was the largest on record......24,000 showed up. Those in the trunk office said that, with this

figure, they calculated about probably 30,000-32,000 were faithful twi followers in 1984. All that hooey of

100,000 taking the pfal class was irrelevant to the numbers guys.

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Some random thoughts:

Corps go full-time staff. When I first heard that, I thought, If this ISN'T revelation, it's the dumbest thing I can think of. Turning one of your biggest revenue sources into a revenue sink, overnight, certainly flouted "worldly" wisdom. As WordWolf pointed out, there COULD have been some non-obvious benefit (increased classes, book sales, etc.); but, of course, none of that ever materialized.

And the "paid" Corps on the field got a subsistence wage. I seem to recall my Branch Leader and his wife sharing an apartment with a couple of other guys. And if you wanted to bless them with a gift (especially cash), they couldn't accept it, because it was a "bribe." Of course, when LCM came into town, there were ALL SORTS of gifts for the MOG. :realmad:

George

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And the "paid" Corps on the field got a subsistence wage. I seem to recall my Branch Leader and his wife sharing an apartment with a couple of other guys. And if you wanted to bless them with a gift (especially cash), they couldn't accept it, because it was a "bribe." Of course, when LCM came into town, there were ALL SORTS of gifts for the MOG. :realmad:/>

George

Detailing some of this three-year slog-subsistence......Click Here -- 1995 full-time corps "revelation"

.....all the corps were inundated with reporting back to twi leadership. I tend to believe that the trunk office issued this paper blizzard to appease martinfail's screaming episodes and micromanaged leadership style. Quite obvious to me.....martinfail didn't trust the corps to do their ministerial duties.

The paperwork was multi-faceted. Branch guys reported to the limb, the limb to region, the region to trunk, the trunk to bot. The following are some of the reports that I recall:

--Time-Analysis Report....each week, this report was a projected schedule of the corps person's week detailing 6am - 11pm in 30-minute time slots. After about one year, lcm instructed region & limb guys to scrutinize these reports and strongly recommend changes (each week).

--Witnessing Report....each week, this report was a detailed analysis of how many in your area went witnessing, the number of contacts, the number of follow-ups, the number who attended fellowships as a result, the number who signed up for WAP, etc.

--Petty Cash Report....each branch, limb and region were allocated a level of petty cash. Branch corps, generally, consisted of two or three fellowships and didn't utilze petty cash reports except for times when lcm designated 8 consecutive public/formal branch meetings during the videotaping of WAP. All expenses over $100 had to be cleared by the region guy. The region guy could spend up to $300 before the trunk got involved.

--Yearly Budget Reports....this report had to be cleared through twi's personnel department. With some 600+ corps/families on payroll, this was a monumental task to sort thru the "needs" of every corps family, every situation. Some parents had a child in a musical instrument class, or a karate class, or a voice lessons class, etc. Martindale blasted the corps on a corps meeting for spending "excess money" on their children.

--[Note: Pet policies, gift-giving policies, pregnancy policies, traveling policies, cable tv policies, etc......these came into play as the mountain of corps expenses soared far beyond anything martindale had foreseen.]

--Monthly Progress Report....(whatever it was called??) detailed each branch's progress on class sign-ups (fnd, int, ac, etc). Month after month, it seemed like there were always goose eggs (zeros) in the blanks.

--Trunk Faxes.....reporting back on specific policies or corps meeting assignments was common. The corps were responsible to listen to lcm's sts tape on tuesday or early wednesday each week BEFORE the corps phone hookup. Trunk faxes were common and demanded a quick response. Sometimes, corps would be up until midnight to meet the fax deadline.

--Greetings Faxed to Trunk....as the paper-insantiy escalated, the corps seemed to be competing as to who could send in the most heartfelt greeting for twi's anniversary, for thanksgiving, for twi's holiday party, for the new year's, etc.

--Thank You Cards.....it became mandatory for each branch, each area to send a unique, handmade, personalized card to lcm after each WAP class. Every student was to sign the card and detail what blessed them specifically in the class.

Those who had bigger branches, bigger limbs, bigger regions had MORE paperwork to do. It wasn't any secret why MANY region couples had no kids. No time.

There were more reports, but I think you get the gist of it. I know lots of people criticize their corps leadership, but from one who was in the midst of this paper blizzard.....it was one he!! of a ride!

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Aparently, my thinking on the subject hasn't changed in ten years. :)/> From the link skyrider posted:

"I remember when I first heard that the Corps were all going to be salaried. I thought, "Either LCM is believing for a miracle, or he's an idiot." Turn all the cash-supplying Corps into cash sinks, all the while running off everyone else who was sending in ABS. I guess the miracle never appeared." :rolleyes:

George

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I posted this 10 years ago on that full time corps thread:

I distinctly remember Martindale saying regarding the full time decision that if it didn't work, and they had to go back to the Corps getting "secular" employment, the ministry will have failed.

Fast forward to the announcement that the Corps was going off full time employment with TWI: the spin was not that there was any failure involved, in fact, it was God's will! Now the "highly trained" and "spiritual" Way Corps would be able to move the Word even greater than before since they would be out in the job market; people would hear the Word who otherwise might not because The Corps would be working!

The biggest laugh was that Martindale was promoting that the Way Corps could easily move into middle management jobs due to their experiencve leading people. icon_confused.gif:confused:/>-->

Now I know that some of you Corps grads were pretty smart and started your own sucessful businesses, or were professionals in your field. (and you guys lost out when, after dropping your career or business, you had to start all over again a few years later because "revelation changed") but there were a lot of Corps grads out there who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag, and some of these fine specimens were angling for management jobs!

As someone who has been a manager for several companies in several different industries over the course of my life, I found it insulting that someone who lacked any skills other than mindlessly obeying orders and parroting the company line could even consider being a manager in any field

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As someone who has been a manager for several companies in several different industries over the course of my life, I found it insulting that someone who lacked any skills other than mindlessly obeying orders and parroting the company line could even consider being a manager in any field

Sadly, I've HAD managers like that. (Not all, but some.)

George

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It seems to me that, for a few years, the roa brochure promoted the event as "....great food,

fellowship and fun. I could be wrong on this. Maybe dreaming?

Well, if it was great food......then somebody doesn't get out much.

If it was great fellowship......then somebody doesn't have a lot of friends.

It it was great fun.............then somebody doesn't know about Disney Word or theme parks.

Take the juxtaposed position of wierwille/twi for the sake of discussion......what IF

vpee would have stated upfront, "Listen, I understand that we all love God and our heart

longs and thirsts for truth....BUT we also know that you come here to reunite with your

friends, family and loved ones. Have picnics in the way woods. Go to Lake St. Marys.

Enjoy yourselves. Each night, the main stage will feature heart-inspiring music and truth....

come join us. But throughout each day, relish in the joy of being with loved ones."

Rather than suffocate us with control.....love us into living life!

Rather than indoctrinate us into twi......let us go to love Him more.

Rather than micromanage every moment......believe that He leads the moments.

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You guys have me reminiscing about ROA stories now. What a walking cluster #!/&*

that was.

Reading through all this now I'm thinking "how the hell did they get me to put up with all this BS?"

I guess they moved the boundaries in my life an inch at a time a year at a time until they owned me mostly.

But you can never fully own a free heart.

But you can micromanage a ministry into non-existence all while being catered to hand and foot and living in a house Way Builders built that you own but didn't pay for the labor on. What kind of seared heart would do that all while forcing followers to live under the burden of a landlord?

Just one more 2 bit example of sin, ego, and mistreating the followers of Jesus who go to your church and trust you.

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When the power of God is present......the humble of heart will be there.

Roa main stage events would not have needed hype and coercion.....if men walked by the spirit.

The scriptures give us ample insight to the Pharisees and how they micromanaged the people

with guilt and fear. Yet, they would not follow that which they scripted for others.

I will never forget how my heart sank when wierwille stood at the microphone, at roa,

and requested that advanced class grads come forward to minister healing. Why was

"the man of god" and his inner-circle men not going down, off the stage, to the people

to minister? Really? This doesn't pass the power-in-action smell test!!

C'mon, let's SEE that "I've got the power" tonight. Right here. Right now.

That's it? Delegate and wait? Now, everyone back to their seats.

What a disappointment!!

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"I will never forget how my heart sank when wierwille stood at the microphone, at roa,

and requested that advanced class grads come forward to minister healing."

I was there. I didn't feel the least bit "moved" to participate....so I didn't. The people I was with looked at me with a look of confusion for my non-participation. I remember thinking about the line "God told me to tell you". It just didn't feel right. When it was over, I felt very guilty. Perhaps I had missed something? What if someone died because of my stubbornness. I carried that guilt for a very long time.

The reason I'm divulging this is because I got to see the event from a spectator's vantage point instead of a participant's. Wierwille was on stage, going on and on in a manner not unlike session 12. All around me, there were "ministering sessions" going on, much like you would see at a typical twig or branch meeting. There was nothing extraordinary happening. No one was leaping out of a wheelchair or proclaiming instantaneous relief from blindness. It was just the same old stuff you would expect to hear and see at the local level but on a larger scale. Instead of being wowed by something extreme I was overcome by the mundane nature of it.

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I was at one of Roa minister times.It was a guy in a wheelchair.Wierwille parading looking for a miracle.I prayed for the guy.

Heck he did not want to be in the wheelchair who would of course he had condemnation..

Were we ministers or magicians....

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I was at one of Roa minister times.It was a guy in a wheelchair.Wierwille parading looking for a miracle.I prayed for the guy.

Heck he did not want to be in the wheelchair who would of course he had condemnation..

Were we ministers or magicians....

We weren't magicians.

Magicians can at least create the illusion that what they're doing is affecting reality.

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There was nothing extraordinary happening. No one was leaping out of a wheelchair or proclaiming instantaneous relief from blindness. It was just the same old stuff you would expect to hear and see at the local level but on a larger scale. Instead of being wowed by something extreme I was overcome by the mundane nature of it.

Yeah.....one big SHRUG-fest.

Wierwille, martindale, t0wnsend, finneg@n, dunc@n, burt0n, cumm!ns, etc. etc....

all the "big name" people, even before the likes of ly-nn, geer, and others...

lots of roa personnel riding around everywhere in those golf carts....

AND WHEN IT CAME TO DEMONSTRATING GOD'S POWER?

Nope.

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I was at one of Roa minister times.It was a guy in a wheelchair.Wierwille parading looking for a miracle.I prayed for the guy.

Heck he did not want to be in the wheelchair who would of course he had condemnation..

Were we ministers or magicians....

The big problem with the "You're sick because of your lack of believing" doctrine is that it put people in condemnation. I'm reminded of John 9, where the Pharisees ask, "Who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" To which Jesus responded, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents (so quit trying to blame them)." Crap happens because we have an adversary, and it's always a great joy to see a miraculous healing. If the miracle doesn't happen, we know we still have the final victory.

I wonder if VPW ever condemned himself for his cancer.

George

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The big problem with the "You're sick because of your lack of believing" doctrine is that it put people in condemnation. I'm reminded of John 9, where the Pharisees ask, "Who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" To which Jesus responded, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents (so quit trying to blame them)."

Excellent point! :eusa_clap:

This same scripture could be used in a pfal thread,

any "law of believing" thread, or those where corps

leaders were trying to entrap with guilt and fear.

Thanks.

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Excellent point! eusa_clap.gif

This same scripture could be used in a pfal thread,

any "law of believing" thread, or those where corps

leaders were trying to entrap with guilt and fear.

Thanks.

And then there's the passage in John 16:33 where Jesus tells his disciples that regardless of anything else, s*it happens.

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” NIV

And wasn't there a retemory verse from Isa 26:3

"You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you."

Did Loy really trust God? My hunch is that this verse in Isaiah wasn't there for condemnation but perhaps as encouragement.

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See....THAT is the problem. You guys are reading and applying scriptures from the gospels,

not the epistles. Don't you know that those verses are NOT written to us. sarc/

When you become fully indoctrinated....er, instructed in the "lo shanta power" of the Lord,

you won't be wasting your time on that Christ administration stuff. Epistle-land is where you

earn your strips and get out there knocking on doors and the bureaucracy of overlords in outreach

have sway. That's twi, baby......thru and thru.

Edited by skyrider

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See....THAT is the problem. You guys are reading and applying scriptures from the gospels,

not the epistles. Don't you know that those verses are NOT written to us. sarc/

When you become fully indoctrinated....er, instructed in the "lo shanta power" of the Lord,

you won't be wasting your time on that Christ administration stuff. Epistle-land is where you

earn your strips and get out there knocking on doors and the bureaucracy of overlords in outreach

have sway. That's twi, baby......thru and thru.

Well, there's also 2 Tim 3:12: All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

And Stephen in Acts. Hard to say he was stoned to death for lack of believing, when he was in the midst of a full-blown vision of Christ in his glory. :)

George

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Well, there's also 2 Tim 3:12: All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

And Stephen in Acts. Hard to say he was stoned to death for lack of believing, when he was in the midst

of a full-blown vision of Christ in his glory. :)/>/>

Damn-it George.....those scriptures are NOT in your retemory pack.

You'd better shape up quickly....or you can kiss that adv class nametag good-bye.

.

Edited by skyrider

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Damn-it George.....those scriptures are NOT in your retemory pack.

You'd better shape up quickly....or you can kiss that adv class nametag good-bye.

.

Sorry. :redface:

Seriously, that reminds me of another tangent (though at least partly pertinent to the gauntlet theme): nametags.

Remember when there were a few tags: Way Corps, WOW, Advanced Class, maybe Way College? Then, there started to be a plethora of nametags. (Would you say I have a "plethora" of nametags, Jefe?) Something for every class, every state. "CFS, Illinois, 1987"; "10xPFAL Club"; "Heard the Word, 1990." OK, I made those up; but they're not too different from the ones which were actually circulating. I think people were just envious of the pinholes on the shirts of Corps and wanted to emulate them.

George

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