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How was your identity changed?


penworks
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You may not have been altered much while immersed in TWI, but I know I was.

I remember sneaking off to St. Mary's library while I was working at TWI headquarters in 1986 and reading "The Mind Benders" by Jack N. Sparks. It was first published in 1977.

The book blew my mind. :-) I saw myself on some of the pages.

In Part III of the book, there's a chapter called "An Introduction to The Way, International." On page 214, there's a section called Behavior Modification. It reads in part: "Slowly the behavior of the devotee of The Way changes. He begins to act almost as he were becoming another personality. He isn't. It's just that another personality is dominating him."

Well, those of us here know who that personality was at that time: VPW himself.

If you'd like to read part of my story, here's a recent blog post.

http://charleneedge....identity-theft/

I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC.

What do you think happened to your identity?

Cheers,

Penworks

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I knew as it was happening that my identity was changing. But, one of the dangers of the process is that you are coached to IGNORE the changes or, at least, minimize their importance. Remember the PFAL session where we're taught to eschew careful consideration? I think that was session #7. The one where VPW talked about the consequences experienced by Eve when she gave consideration to the serpents queries. "Having done all, STAND! Don't budge." I'm paraphrasing somewhat. In fact we were even encouraged, in classes like Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary, to abandon our true selves in favor of a prescribed model. But, one day, I looked in the mirror and something profound happened. I began to question how I was looking at a completely different person than I had looked at only a few short years previously. Some people never bother to look too closely into that mirror. I can't tell you why. Maybe they're happy with the change they see. Maybe they don't see a change. Or, maybe it scares them to think they've lost themselves to a fantasy. I don't know.

It all started for me in the summer of 1972. Finally, a mere 43 years later, I feel like I'm back to being my old self. It feels good.

Edited by waysider
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How has my identity changed? That is hard to say. Obviously I am much older now.

Back then I was really searching for God. I still feel that God interacted in my life to show Himself to me, through people who were in The Way. Within 2 years of being active and taking various classes, God led me to my wife. [both of these are long drawn out stories, which I will save you the pain of having to digest at this moment].

Soon after finding my wife, was the first time that I met a Way Corpse 'leader' [steve Strezpec]. He had agreed to do marriage counseling for another couple [Harrol and Fran]. Which in turn it turned out to be he was trying to convince them to join the Way Corps, and avoid marriage. Supposedly God had told him, it was God's will for Harrol to desert from the US Navy and for them both to join the Way Corps. Harrol had just re-enlisted, he had orders in hand and needed a marriage license so Fran could go with him to their next duty station. I disrupted Steve's big plan by getting them married elsewhere. Steve's wrath fell on me, and in his rage he explained to all of us that he had lied to Harrol/Fran, and was only trying to recruit them into the Way Corps. He declared that I was born of adversary seed, and banned everyone in the branch from contact with me.

Over the years, I have been in many Twigs in different areas. I served as 'Country Coordinator' for a few years. With my early experience with Steve Strezpec, I have never trusted any Way Corps. We have known a lot of believers who have been wonderful people, loving and trying to walk in God's Will in their lives.

I have been 'thrown out' and not allowed to attend fellowships a few times. Each of the other times we were thrown out, it was over conflicts between the Bible and Way Ministry doctrine. I go to my next duty station, join that twig and all is good. We have known a lot of wonderful believers. A few people that I witnessed to, have later gone into the Way Corps.

I know that over the course of the past 30 years, our knowledge of the Bible has grown a great deal.

I learned early to be skeptical of appointed leadership, that has stuck with us, and it has served us well.

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Of course, Galen,

active service in the military thwarts twi preferred strategy in 3 different ways

A) you are locked into a career and can't be talked easily into just

moving when and where twi says

B) you have a support network in the military, so you can't just be isolated

from everyone and told that twi is all you have for people in your life

C) your physical mobility means their attempts to have you shunned are only

effective until your next tour of duty.

All of that makes it more difficult for twi to impose identity changes on you.

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Isolation was always a BIG part of how The Way instilled a dependence in its followers. Isolation can be mental, physical or both. For all practical purposes, you weren't really supposed to associate with outsiders unless it was for the purpose of bringing them into the fold. The "unequally yoked" scripture was invoked as a directive.

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You may not have been altered much while immersed in TWI, but I know I was.

I remember sneaking off to St. Mary's library while I was working at TWI headquarters in 1986 and reading "The Mind Benders" by Jack N. Sparks. It was first published in 1977.

The book blew my mind. :-) I saw myself on some of the pages.

In Part III of the book, there's a chapter called "An Introduction to The Way, International." On page 214, there's a section called Behavior Modification. It reads in part: "Slowly the behavior of the devotee of The Way changes. He begins to act almost as he were becoming another personality. He isn't. It's just that another personality is dominating him."

Well, those of us here know who that personality was at that time: VPW himself.

If you'd like to read part of my story, here's a recent blog post.

http://charleneedge....identity-theft/

I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC.

What do you think happened to your identity?

Cheers,

Penworks

I look back and realize that my identity really began to form in high school. The extracurricular activities I participated in (mainly drama and choir... expressive arts), and some (like athletics) I only tried to participate in, were a big part of who I would become.

One semester of college and I realized I wasn't really prepared for that experience, so I enlisted. While overseas, stuck on an island in the Atlantic, I first became involved with twi.

The military culture put limits on the development of my self, my identity and my personality. Yet, when it came time to decide whether to re-up, I knew I was too independent for that life.

Up to that point, twi wasn't a limiting factor for me. It was just good fellowship and going to a couple of ROAs... which were fun overall.

Then there was the way corpse. One year in residence, leaving during interim year, then a wow year in northern Ohio. It was only then, with an 11th corpse wow family coord, that I began to

realize how much bulls*it it was and that the organization was all about demanding obedience. Key word: began. I remained involved with twi after the wow year when I finally settled down to

get my bachelor's degree. Friends returned from that year's ROA and started talking about the poop paper. That was 1986. Continued fellowshipping with many of the same (also now former

twi people) in an independent fellowship... but it was the same format as twig. Eventually realizing that we were just doing the same thing over and over and over... for years. How freaking boring.

My degree is in accounting and during my senior year at ASU, I began to realize that accountability in twi was bass-ackward from how it was in Acts.

When I began reading books written by M Scott Peck, notably The Road Less Traveled, I was able to restart my own personal emotional development.

Accountability remains a key concept for me as I have been following and involved in politics, including three years in a journalistic organization, for the last two and a half decades.

Accountability in government and politics is a driving passion in my life. I've had some influence in some situations. I've learned that taking on the responsibilities of citizenship is both

work (in some instances, hard work) and yet, very fulfilling.

Btw, I struggled a lot with a condescending attitude for years, partly because I grew up with relatives telling me I was bright, partly because the culture in twi was that we were always right.

Truly, people you'd like to be friends with often can't stand it when you're being condescending. I try to be humble these days... don't always succeed.

Does that answer the question?

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I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC.

What do you think happened to your identity?

As the years quickly pass, and all the moving parts around me that constitute MY LIFE......I find it difficult

to conceptualize "how vpw/twi changed my identity" in any permanent way. Having transitioned into college life

a year before ever hearing of twi, nearly everything around me was challenging my identity of self. Sure, my

goals had *Business Management and Marketing* in sight......but that was about it. lol

But like many young adults, I wasn't locked into a precision-guided career path until I'd checked out some

options along the way. And, lo and behold.....some young, enthusiastic WOWs were bopping around with this

"research class" so I took it. In contemplating this episode [click]....Transition and Transference

So....how has my indentity been altered by twi?

1) Yes and no....more head-knowledge and experiences, but didn't change my heart

2) I thrive on independence....and, for awhile, thought twi advanced 'liberty in Christ'

3) By 1978, inrez corps mtgs...wierwille was fuming at what he called 'cop-outs' [RED FLAG]

4) Began to see a consistent dichotomy in what vpw taught and how he lived

5) Even as in-resident corps, I held fast to my integrity and would not let it go

6) Saw a major chasm between hq-staff living and those assigned to "the field"

7) Loved reading the gospels and how Jesus lived and walked among the people

8) Maybe, I should have never gone corps? [but I met this beautiful corps woman]

9) So, I guess....EVERYTHING was altered because she became my wife

10) Add, our two sons....and 'the road less taken made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN MY LIFE'

Yep, I took this side-detour into twi....and it altered EVERYTHING concerning me,

but it altered NOTHING about me. In my travels to find my true identity....I came

to realize that I already had established it deep-down inside all along. The bedrock

of who I am was established in those formidable days of farm life, small town, good-hearted

friends, neighbors and a blessed family. Like Dorothy [Wizard of Oz], what I thought

I was searching for was THERE all along. But unlike Dorothy, I didn't just "come back home"

.....I married someone who, also, was following 'the yellow brick road.'

In traveling life's journey, I'm not sure how one can traipse thru experience after

experience and not be altered in some way or fashion. Isn't that why autobiographies

are so interesting?

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Charlene.....

Wonderful piece, as usual, from your blog.

In response to your invitation for input, I submit the following for your consideration along with that of The Greasespot community. As you, I too am interested in opinions, comments, snide remarks about what I post. Thank you all for the same.

Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult, because it is an identity crisis. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I "supposed" to DO? The cult and it's totalitarian leader answered every one of those questions over and over and over again for us. Vic reproduced his perverted, pathological brand of christianity in as many as he could hoodwink and manipulate it into. He was skilled at selecting the hundreds of victims of his serial rapist lifestyle. His "teachings" were all designed to reproduce the pathological Aryan behavior and thinking that governed vic and therefore governed the way. That is what governed the indoctrination and success of the "training". It is also what governed and influenced the "volunteers" and the life-choices they made during that stage of identity formation.

The developmental stage immediately prior to identity formation is Adolescence. Age ranged described as typically age 12-20. The "art" of vic's sociopathic skills, and really those of all totalist systems, is to maintain the follower in the psychoemotional stage of adolescence in order to gain complete control over the entire stage of identity formation. A kind if "forced" or "imposed" adolescence so to speak. Look at the amount of influence such totalist control can bring to bear upon a human being stuck in adolescence for 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years?!!

One soon discovers that one's entire identity has been formed by group think and acceptance of the perverted, pathological lifestyle of a drunken Nazi. Now THAT can be disturbing!

But, more disturbing is the difficulty many cult refugees face in summoning up the personal and/moral courage required for identity re-formation. It can be a daunting task, and many often find themselves unable to honestly deal with it. It can and often does become dysfunctional.

So, that's my input Charlene and fellow Greasespotters. Whaddya think?

Edited by DontWorryBeHappy
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Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult...

DWBH......yeah, disentangling oneself from a cult is very difficult, indeed!

Here at The Café....we've been endeavoring to disentangle ourselves, thread after thread.

Just a sampling of threads [below] capsulate how vpw/twi fostered aspects of this emerging identity crisis.

Dependency: Twi's Sinister Plan

Manipulation of One's Consent

An Illusion of Leadership

Hold the Microphone....Hold the Power

Re-Education Camp at HQ

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Charlene.....

Wonderful piece, as usual, from your blog.

In response to your invitation for input, I submit the following for your consideration along with that of The Greasespot community. As you, I too am interested in opinions, comments, snide remarks about what I post. Thank you all for the same.

Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult, because it is an identity crisis. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I "supposed" to DO? The cult and it's totalitarian leader answered every one of those questions over and over and over again for us. Vic reproduced his perverted, pathological brand of christianity in as many as he could hoodwink and manipulate it into. He was skilled at selecting the hundreds of victims of his serial rapist lifestyle. His "teachings" were all designed to reproduce the pathological Aryan behavior and thinking that governed vic and therefore governed the way. That is what governed the indoctrination and success of the "training". It is also what governed and influenced the "volunteers" and the life-choices they made during that stage of identity formation.

The developmental stage immediately prior to identity formation is Adolescence. Age ranged described as typically age 12-20. The "art" of vic's sociopathic skills, and really those of all totalist systems, is to maintain the follower in the psychoemotional stage of adolescence in order to gain complete control over the entire stage of identity formation. A kind if "forced" or "imposed" adolescence so to speak. Look at the amount of influence such totalist control can bring to bear upon a human being stuck in adolescence for 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years?!!

One soon discovers that one's entire identity has been formed by group think and acceptance of the perverted, pathological lifestyle of a drunken Nazi. Now THAT can be disturbing!

But, more disturbing is the difficulty many cult refugees face in summoning up the personal and/moral courage required for identity re-formation. It can be a daunting task, and many often find themselves unable to honestly deal with it. It can and often does become dysfunctional.

So, that's my input Charlene and fellow Greasespotters. Whaddya think?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond like this and include the valuable info on developmental stages. Bingo. That tender age window is what made many of us so vulnerable to VPW and his indoctrination.

I think those of us in The Corps were probably changed more and in worse ways than anyone associated with TWI. Ever.

Last thought for now: I have heard that counselors these days evidently shy away from using the term "arrested development" to describe what you described above so well, but I think that term is very useful. Grow up and think for yourself, was my mantra after leaving TWI. It pushed me to examine, think, and think about what I was thinking. That's one reason I like it here. People try to think about what they are thinking and decide whether it's good or not, bigoted or not, loving or not, true or not.

Cheers and thanks for all the insights. You guys are wonderful,

Penworks

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Very often, people who have been either heavily dependent on drugs, or in prison (let's just say, captured, for both) go through a sort of arrested development. When they come out of prison, or get free of their drugs - there their old self is, but delayed by the period they've been captured. So if someone goes to prison at age 18 for 7 or 8 years, in many ways they're still only 18 when released. And for druggies, the same.

And that's despite a lot of experiences, mostly unpleasant, that were enjoyed or endured whilst captured.

That's because the normal emotional growing up that they would do with their peer group has been suspended.

Now think : TWI as imprisonment, drugged-up, etc.

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Charlene.....enjoyed reading your blog and thanks for starting this thread.

This whole subject of self-identity, and the onslaughts via twi to subvert one's identity.....

is one that has arrested my attention for nearly 37 years. In October/November 1978 as I sat in a

corps meeting in Emporia, I will never forget the churning confusion that I experienced when

wierwille was publically castigating corps grads that were dissenting and exiting twi. As I sat

there, I refused to accept wierwille's outrage over this.

With DontWorry's fine post, I have looked a little deeper into identity formation and the subcategories

that comprise the whole of identity......namely, cultural, ethnic, national, religious (collective),

and gender identity. And, with involvement in twi it's got to have a hyper-collective (cult) category

for those of us in this forum. lol

Your comment..."I think those of us in The Corps were probably changed more and in worse ways

than anyone associated with TWI. Ever. ....has a lot of merit to it. One of the ways in which

wierwille was able to deceive and seduce the unsuspecting followers and corps was that he rode in

on the coattails of fundamental Christianity and tweaked it, ever-so-slightly. By simply skewing

biblical definitions like "meekness" or "spiritual maturity" or "apostle" or "man of God"......we

were led astray by this incremental deception. Wierwille's teachings were NO guarantee for truth!!

And....wierwille's entourage of bodyguards and private coach hyped his mystique. When he descended

on the Emporia campus, he was treated with Rock Star status.

The corps indoctrination....er, program had all the markings of seduction [ie isolation, peer

pressure, collective belonging/mindset, buzzspeak, elite training, lord over others, etc.]. And, anyone

who was paying attention realized that wierwille was promoting his corps program as the pinnacle of all

spiritual achievement that twi had to offer. At headquarters, the corps graduates were replacing the

"old guard" as department coordinators....and, on the field, corps were replacing branch coordinators

and soon, twig coordinators. The message? If you want to be INvolved.....you've got to go corps.

Individuality was quickly squashed the minute you arrived at the corps campus and got your room assignment.

In Owens Hall at Emporia, we were assigned to 18-men per room....a bunk, small closet and a couple of dresser

drawers to put your stuff in. All music instruments were stored away at Kenyan Hall storage for 3 months.

The message was immediately clear......you are insignificant, group identity is supreme!

Having been in college recently with all kinds of freedoms, and having grown up in rural America.....I

nearly left the corps after the first month. Uugh. This is it? But I wasn't a quitter and decided to stay

until Christmas. Slowly and ever-so-incremental.....I began to accept the corps-slog. Clearly, the young

women outnumbered us men.....and it probably played into my decision to stay. lol

But from a clear, logical standpoint.....I detested the smugness, the spiritual "protocol" and all the pampering

that was given wierwille from day one. It reeked of hypocrisy. And further, as the years passed....I couldn't

help but notice vpw's "good words and fair speeches" and zilch, NO power.

Self-identity, in twi, only exists at the upper mog/mogette levels.

Group identity is for the "little people."

.

Edited by skyrider
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This is a great discussion. One of the things I've been reflecting on related to this is identity for a young person 20 - 30 is largely set by modeling.

VPW, LCM, and RFR all modeled and do model cult behavior. They all have / had secret lives as opposed to living out in the open.

The secrecy of their sin led to them building upon a false foundation. Each has or had absolute power and answered to nobody in the org. The lie each of them live as I John says prevents any genuine ministry. The lives each have ruined either directly or through the culture of sin, lies and secrecy they built will testify against them at the return. Examples of this abound.

My identity was set primarily as a cult Christian. It has needed to be reset to that of a normal Christian. One who views all churches as the body, not one small group of bigoted idiots. One who doesn't look down the nose at other Christians due to their supposed lack of knowledge. One who wouldnt start an argument with Raf over SIT at this date because it just matters so little compared to love and rescue. One who doesn't care if a church splashes someone because it supposedly went out with an administration but tithing didnt.

I've changed a lot over the last year.

Leave the Way in your rear view mirror. After a bit you'll feel normal again

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Charlene.....

Wonderful piece, as usual, from your blog.

In response to your invitation for input, I submit the following for your consideration along with that of The Greasespot community. As you, I too am interested in opinions, comments, snide remarks about what I post. Thank you all for the same.

Identity theft in terms of "how did vic affect my identity formation"? Very interesting question. It requires intense self-reflection and introspection, neither highly objective when dealing with such fundamentally crucial issues of being human. The process of identity formation is a lifelong process. It has been studied, analyzed, digitalized, and described often, by various scientific, sociologic, and psychiatric disciplines. One well-known Behavioral Psycholgist has described a lifelong process of Human Developmental Stages by identifying 8 different stages spanning a typical human lifespan of 76-80 years in the populations of "developed" nations. The critical stage we're specifically addressing here is called "Identity Formation", and the thesis identifies the typical age range or time period of this stage as taking place during the ages of 20-32.

If one looks back at the common experience many of those of us involved deeply with vic's way, it is not surprising that many of us devoted those years of critical identity formation to activities like fellowship, WOW, and most deadly, the way corpse "training". Here in the Uniied States, the average person between the ages of 20-32 is doing what? Attending and graduating from college or trade school, leaving home and striking out on their own, developing a sexual , social, and intellectual identity, experience profound relationships with males and females inside and outside the nuclear family. Decisions like career/profession, marriage or not, children or not, more education or different education or not, travel.......all those things, kind of bubble, bubble, toil and trouble around for 10-12 years and badda-bing, there we are approaching middle age before we even know it.......LOL!

Now, throw all that onto the "WOW field" or into "The Way Corps", under the totaltalitarian control of a paranoid narcissistic sociopath, serial sexual abuser and rapist, alcoholic Nazi, and ask yourself, "might that have had any influence on any of those identity formation activities and choices we made during that critical stage of human development? What was the answer? Obvious I suppose. It was for me.

That is why the process of actually disentangling oneself from a cult, (talk about quantum entanglement!), can be very difficult, because it is an identity crisis. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I "supposed" to DO? The cult and it's totalitarian leader answered every one of those questions over and over and over again for us. Vic reproduced his perverted, pathological brand of christianity in as many as he could hoodwink and manipulate it into. He was skilled at selecting the hundreds of victims of his serial rapist lifestyle. His "teachings" were all designed to reproduce the pathological Aryan behavior and thinking that governed vic and therefore governed the way. That is what governed the indoctrination and success of the "training". It is also what governed and influenced the "volunteers" and the life-choices they made during that stage of identity formation.

The developmental stage immediately prior to identity formation is Adolescence. Age ranged described as typically age 12-20. The "art" of vic's sociopathic skills, and really those of all totalist systems, is to maintain the follower in the psychoemotional stage of adolescence in order to gain complete control over the entire stage of identity formation. A kind if "forced" or "imposed" adolescence so to speak. Look at the amount of influence such totalist control can bring to bear upon a human being stuck in adolescence for 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years?!!

One soon discovers that one's entire identity has been formed by group think and acceptance of the perverted, pathological lifestyle of a drunken Nazi. Now THAT can be disturbing!

But, more disturbing is the difficulty many cult refugees face in summoning up the personal and/moral courage required for identity re-formation. It can be a daunting task, and many often find themselves unable to honestly deal with it. It can and often does become dysfunctional.

So, that's my input Charlene and fellow Greasespotters. Whaddya think?

My involvement with our cult began a month before I turned 20 and ended the year I graduated from college (age 31). Two years military wow, one year actual wow, one year in residence corpse. I can identify that my emotional development had been arrested and through a difficult marriage and personal study, I learned a lot of what I should probably have learned and accomplished ten years earlier. Though I survived a year in rez, I never did fully relinquish my independence. Then after a year as a wow in northern Ohio, peer pressure to conform to the whim of the minimog seemed totally unacceptable to me. Perhaps that's why when the poop paper popped, I was ready to jump ship.

I went through recognizable stages during my thirties... had a wife and a kid, then just a half time kid.

These days, I'm much more comfortable with my independence. I spend most (not all) of my time alone,reading and writing. My identity being a writer and a grandfather. No effing way I see myself becoming subject to anything like twi again.

However, interpersonal communication skills developed during that time are coming in handy in political endeavors these days. :)

So, too, I say thanks Charlene for the discussion and contributions like DWBH to provoke self-reflection and evaluation. <3 you both.

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How was your identity "changed"; that's the premise of this thread and I only assume that it's in reference as to how twi changed or formulated our personal identity. That's a very deep question and depends on how long we were in or affected by twi and how old and long we were outa twi before we began to question as to "who we are".

It quite commonly comes down to how we ID ourselves at this point in our lives. How we ID ourselves to other folks may be quite differenct then how we ID ourselves to ourselves. People are looking for career paths and titles to simplify the process of pigeon holing you into a catagory - that's totally wrong. We should ID ourselves as that we are most proud of regarding ourselves, not what out parents list us as.

In answer to the question of the thread, I don't have a clue as to my ID, none of the things in the past matter: I only state to folks that "these" are the things I like to do.

TWI affected my current ID but I did not stick long enough with twi to define it.

God sees me in the person of His son, Jesus Christ, I expect, that is who I am.

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"It quite commonly comes down to how we ID ourselves at this point in our lives. How we ID ourselves to other folks may be quite differenct then how we ID ourselves to ourselves. People are looking for career paths and titles to simplify the process of pigeon holing you into a catagory - that's totally wrong. We should ID ourselves as that we are most proud of regarding ourselves, not what out parents list us as.

In answer to the question of the thread, I don't have a clue as to my ID, none of the things in the past matter: I only state to folks that "these" are the things I like to do.

TWI affected my current ID but I did not stick long enough with twi to define it.

God sees me in the person of His son, Jesus Christ, I expect, that is who I am."

The major benefit of becoming "well self-identified" is that we are able to openly, honestly, and transparently avoid "How we ID ourselves to other folks may be quite different then[than] how we ID ourselves to ourselves." I apologize, but that sentence expressed the fact that you have no identity other than that which you invent depending on who you're talking to, including yourself. That's no identity at all, and, perhaps that might be why you "don't have a clue as to my[your ] ID"? Another point of becoming well self-identified, is so that you are able to carry out the greatest commandment The Boss ever gave; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind, and thy strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." If you have no authentic, REAL, concept of "self" you certainly would not be considered well self-identified, and none of the benefits of becoming so will you enjoy.

"God sees me in the person of His son, Jesus Christ, I expect, that is who I am." Sounds real nice, kinda spiritual, and even humble.

But what it really is, imo, is an admission of the abject personal laziness necessary in order to complacently "expect" how someone or something else "sees you" to identify you. Shallow Hal ring a bell, MRAP?

Edited by DontWorryBeHappy
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The major benefit of becoming "well self-identified" is that we are able to openly, honestly, and transparently avoid "How we ID ourselves to other folks may be quite different then[than] how we ID ourselves to ourselves." I apologize, but that sentence expressed the fact that you have no identity other than that which you invent depending on who you're talking to, including yourself. That's no identity at all, and, perhaps that might be why you "don't have a clue as to my[your ] ID"? Another point of becoming well self-identified, is so that you are able to carry out the greatest commandment The Boss ever gave; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind, and thy strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." If you have no authentic, REAL, concept of "self" you certainly would not be considered well self-identified, and none of the benefits of becoming so will you enjoy.

"God sees me in the person of His son, Jesus Christ, I expect, that is who I am." Sounds real nice, kinda spiritual, and even humble.

But what it really is, imo, is an admission of the abject personal laziness necessary in order to complacently "expect" how someone or something else "sees you" to identify you. Shallow Hal ring a bell, MRAP?

I see it.

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We women were subjected to the same things discussed here on this thread, and, in other places in the Cafe. If you were married, you had something else added making it a double whammy. It was the S- word.........submit!

It's not supposed to be some terrible thing. I think you all know about this, we were taught it fairly often. Basically, it means that the wife gives deference to the husband in all things. They will discuss things, and if there is no agreement between the 2, the husband has the final say. We were also taught that whatever the husband said was to be taken as if it was law. He was the head over the woman just as Christ was the head of the church. That makes a lot of sense to me. The problem occurs when the husband really takes to this “submit” policy. For a time, I was in this situation and so my identity was that I was no better than a slave.

Old habits sometimes die hard. That was the situation with this. It took several years after we left until it began to resolve itself into a more normal husband-wife relationship.

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We women were subjected to the same things discussed here on this thread, and, in other places in the Cafe. If you were married, you had something else added making it a double whammy. It was the S- word.........submit!

It's not supposed to be some terrible thing. I think you all know about this, we were taught it fairly often. Basically, it means that the wife gives deference to the husband in all things. They will discuss things, and if there is no agreement between the 2, the husband has the final say. We were also taught that whatever the husband said was to be taken as if it was law. He was the head over the woman just as Christ was the head of the church. That makes a lot of sense to me. The problem occurs when the husband really takes to this “submit” policy. For a time, I was in this situation and so my identity was that I was no better than a slave.

Old habits sometimes die hard. That was the situation with this. It took several years after we left until it began to resolve itself into a more normal husband-wife relationship.

Yeah....and let me give you a corps-man's perspective on this.

We, too, were under that dastardly whammy to submit......every week, every corps meeting

[corps phone hook-ups] nearly half of the 3-hour "teaching" was ordering us around, what to do,

what not to do, study this, report back, etc. The "man of gawd" was the one LEADING.....and to

us corps husbands, it didn't matter one whit in the marriage relationship. The chain of

command.....hq, region, limb --- we had enough on our plate without hardly a decision to make

ourselves.

Week after week, I was on the phone with a region coordinator telling me what I needed to do

to better run things. He wanted me to always report back. He kept wanting to insert himself

into my limb responsibilities. Faxes and more faxes. Quite often I would tell my wife....

be thankful that you don't have to deal with this crap every week.

And, for us too......it took some time to get a NORMAL husband-wife relationship after exiting twi

than being lorded over by the cult command.

.

Edited by skyrider
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We women were subjected to the same things discussed here on this thread, and, in other places in the Cafe. If you were married, you had something else added making it a double whammy. It was the S- word.........submit!

It's not supposed to be some terrible thing. I think you all know about this, we were taught it fairly often. Basically, it means that the wife gives deference to the husband in all things. They will discuss things, and if there is no agreement between the 2, the husband has the final say. We were also taught that whatever the husband said was to be taken as if it was law. He was the head over the woman just as Christ was the head of the church. That makes a lot of sense to me. The problem occurs when the husband really takes to this "submit" policy. For a time, I was in this situation and so my identity was that I was no better than a slave.

Old habits sometimes die hard. That was the situation with this. It took several years after we left until it began to resolve itself into a more normal husband-wife relationship.

I was married in The Way, too. Married a fellow 2nd Corps, had a baby, and stayed in the marriage despite several separations over the years. Three or so years after we left TWI, we divorced. While in TWI, as a wife I took "stand by your man no matter what" to the limit. To do that, I was in denial about my own sense of what I wanted and needed most of the time. Denial, more than anything, ran my life. I had given up what some call "agency" which could have helped me steer my life onto a better path.

Married women were not the same as single women in the eyes of God, evidently. Wierwille used a diagram to show where the married woman stood with God. He used a 90-degree triangle to illustrate God at the top corner and the line that dropped below it led to the husband. The bottom line of the triangle, from the husband, led over to the right where the wife was designated. So the idea was that the wife was off to the side. She "went through" the husband to get to God. But the slanted line from her up and over to God was "direct" too, only not as direct as the husband's. At least that was my understanding. Does anyone else remember this ridiculous-ness?

Edited by penworks
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