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Sorry about that, waysider. ;)/> It is what it is.

Well, then, how about a summation? You know, kinda like, "The point being stressed here is (fill in the blank)."

In other words, if you had to briefly give the essence in your own words, what would you say?

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Are you unable to speak for yourself Jon? A 202 year old quote....and a most pedantic and verbose one at that......somehow "sums up" all you have to admonish us with? It's only been 8 years since jallyroll Lynn showed up here and spoke for himself. What's taken him so long? Your Channing "longest quote ever" was finished 200 years ago. Is that how long it will take jally to come up with any answers of his own?

Do you have anything of your own to say? Or are you just a trained parrot for jallymog or Channing? Anything of your very own floating around between your ears that is in any way relevant to anything in any of the threads in this particular forum? It is ALL about JAL and all his various "ministries" he's splattered around the worldwide web and especially here at the GSC. He's been at this garbage since 1987. How long have you had your wagon hitched to his star? Bottley quit CFFM to become jally's puppet. Where did you get your ministerial Christian training and education? Was it at least a different CrackerJack box than Dan Gallagher? Schoenheit? Graesers? Did jally ordain you too, like Knopf, Wassung, and Bottley? What's that ordination "worth"? A free cup of pablum at the TLTF store? By what authority does lynn ordain you guys? Wierwille's? What ministerial association or Bible College signs your ordination certificate, Jon? Is it Bazooka Joe's Seminary and Bible College? The Way C of E? The Way College of Biblical Research, Indiana Campus? the Family Research Counsel? Schoenheit's STFI? Fred's BBQ and Bible Seminary?

What are your qualifications for sitting on the Board of Twustees of an International Community of Christian believers, in that penultimate "leadership" position? Master's of Divinity from where? ThD. from where? MBA from somewhere? Undergraduate degree in Biblical Studies somewhere? Moody's Bible Institute? Focus on the Family? Liberty University? Bob Jones University? Oral Roberts University? Oxford? Harvard? Princeton? Sam and Dave's Soul Man University? Dr.Ben Carson's Listening With A Purpose U? ANYTHING? Or are you as totally unqualified and non-credentialed as the rest of your Board of Twustees?

I'll tell Ya one thing.......you're more than qualified to post irrelevant, 200 year old "rants" from obscure, self-righteous nobodys. Your Director of Social Media, Ms. Higgins would term that 200 year old Channing nonsense as a "rant" would she not? How about some hint of a real human being instead of a horribly long section of Channing nothingness? Anything coursing through your grey matter that isn't a quote of someone else, Jon?

Edited by DontWorryBeHappy
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It would seem to me, waysider, that Jon Touchstone is not imputing "humility, mildness and candor" to Lynn or any other TWI/exTWI leaders, but rather encouraging US to humility, mildness and candor in our zeal for OUR truth! Thanks to you both!

Love,

Steve

I made this assessment of Jon Touchstone's attitude after noticing that the post was his first one on Greasespot... I've always been a sucker for giving a nube the benefit of the doubt. I was right in perceiving that Jon was admonishing US to "humility, mildness and candor," I just didn't realize why. The fact that a newcomer would choose to make his first post on THIS thread should have been a clue.

"I refer to the duty of candid, charitable judgment, especially towards those who differ in religious opinion." The problem with that is... this isn't just about a simple difference in religious opinion. This is about an abusive con man. I think Wierwille was a conscious, deliberate con man. I think Lynn is a clueless con man, but a con man none the less, one who also is abusive.

Why doesn't anyone from CES, STIFFY, TMNTF, or whatever the acronym for the next iteration is going to be, come on here and discuss the merits of their "package"? Why can't it ever be anything more than an appeal for us to pipe down about the error and the abuse in the name of "brotherly love"?

Does John Lynn still practice Momentus-style "iron sharpening iron"? There's NOTHING humble, mild or candid about THAT!

Love,

Steve

P.S. - After posting this I went to the TLTF website and found out who Jon Touchstone is...

Edited by Steve Lortz
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Yes, you have the sermon correct, Rocky, but I think you missed Channing's point. Please see below:

As has been stated/asked by others... what's your point?

Other than telling DWBH to STFU?

And what if those who aren't interested -- in any longer delegating our responsibility to critically analyze -- just continue to analyze and expound?

Pedantic indeed. And devoid of anything meaningful...

Bible verses don't make for valid arguments, generally. That's also not what I understood their purpose (of the bible verses) to be anyway.

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The more I think about it, the more I can't help but conclude that trying to get people to stop venting about spiritual abuse that the person has been subjected to -- by reciting either bible verses or a gentle preacher from two centuries ago -- completely glosses over the validation of the person. You know, the "believer" who has been expected to behave in a certain way by "leadership." That's simply a continuation of self-justifying rationalizations, the pattern for which was set in our minds by vpee. It was vpee who prolifically used bible verses to rationalize his lockbox theology, which empowered his lascivious lifestyle of alcoholism, sexual predation, conning money out of hardworking people who had to live with other people just to make ends meet, and oh, yes, expecting adulation whenever and wherever he went to teach da verd.

Jon Touchstone, that entire scheme repulses me and has for a long time.

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Are you unable to speak for yourself Jon? A 202 year old quote....and a most pedantic and verbose one at that......somehow "sums up" all you have to admonish us with? It's only been 8 years since jallyroll Lynn showed up here and spoke for himself. What's taken him so long? Your Channing "longest quote ever" was finished 200 years ago. Is that how long it will take jally to come up with any answers of his own?

Do you have anything of your own to say? Or are you just a trained parrot for jallymog or Channing? Anything of your very own floating around between your ears that is in any way relevant to anything in any of the threads in this particular forum? It is ALL about JAL and all his various "ministries" he's splattered around the worldwide web and especially here at the GSC. He's been at this garbage since 1987. How long have you had your wagon hitched to his star? Bottley quit CFFM to become jally's puppet. Where did you get your ministerial Christian training and education? Was it at least a different CrackerJack box than Dan Gallagher? Schoenheit? Graesers? Did jally ordain you too, like Knopf, Wassung, and Bottley? What's that ordination "worth"? A free cup of pablum at the TLTF store? By what authority does lynn ordain you guys? Wierwille's? What ministerial association or Bible College signs your ordination certificate, Jon? Is it Bazooka Joe's Seminary and Bible College? The Way C of E? The Way College of Biblical Research, Indiana Campus? the Family Research Counsel? Schoenheit's STFI? Fred's BBQ and Bible Seminary?

What are your qualifications for sitting on the Board of Twustees of an International Community of Christian believers, in that penultimate "leadership" position? Master's of Divinity from where? ThD. from where? MBA from somewhere? Undergraduate degree in Biblical Studies somewhere? Moody's Bible Institute? Focus on the Family? Liberty University? Bob Jones University? Oral Roberts University? Oxford? Harvard? Princeton? Sam and Dave's Soul Man University? Dr.Ben Carson's Listening With A Purpose U? ANYTHING? Or are you as totally unqualified and non-credentialed as the rest of your Board of Twustees?

I'll tell Ya one thing.......you're more than qualified to post irrelevant, 200 year old "rants" from obscure, self-righteous nobodys. Your Director of Social Media, Ms. Higgins would term that 200 year old Channing nonsense as a "rant" would she not? How about some hint of a real human being instead of a horribly long section of Channing nothingness? Anything coursing through your grey matter that isn't a quote of someone else, Jon?

Yes, you are absolutely correct. It is a 200-year-old paper. Irrelevant? Ummm, not so much, but I understand why you dismiss it as such.

Ralph, you once were one of the finest and brightest. As I noted to you in our previous exchange, I was a fan. What happened to you? Is this how you're following "the Boss" these days? Is this what you, walking out the Lord's business 30 years later, look like? When he tells you to make your calling and election sure, is this what you do - hang out in chat rooms, bullying and insulting people? Have you forgotten, or does it even matter to you any longer, that the Lord hates bullies? When the Lord tells you to walk as he did, with lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, I'm curious - what courses through your grey matter? Do these verses get a chance to bump around in your soul a little, or do you just summarily dismiss them as irrelevant so you can get back to railing on your brethren? Is venom and derision all you have left?

As for my qualifications, I suppose you're right. I have no theological qualifications ... outside of the holy spirit the Lord gave me and the Bible in my hand. It certainly is very humbling. The wonderful news, however, is that I'm among very good company, since these were precisely the qualifications of most of those biblical characters we know and love. I'm sure glad that the Paul didn't hold Peter to the same standards of authenticity that you seem to want to hold me to, brother. The funny thing is, I was under the impression that a person's true credentials come from Jesus, since the Bible teaches that "... it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends." As I recall, you used to teach this very thing, once upon a time. Do you now disagree with this, Ralph? If so, why?

Edited by Jon Touchstone
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"As for my qualifications, I suppose you're right. I have no theological qualifications ... outside of the holy spirit the Lord gave me and the Bible in my hand. It certainly is very humbling. The wonderful news, however, is that I'm among very good company, since these were precisely the qualifications of most of those biblical characters we know and love. I'm sure glad that the Paul didn't hold Peter to the same standards of authenticity that you seem to want to hold me to, brother. The funny thing is, I was under the impression that a person's true credentials come from Jesus, since the Bible teaches that "... it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends."

Oh, here we go again, comparing ourselves to Biblical figures.

Guess what. you're not David, you're not Paul or Peter or Jesus. You're just an everyday guy, living a delusional life in the 21st century, imagining yourself to be a key player in some noble "spiritual" movement. In reality, you're a simple pawn in the God-Game, just like the rest of us were long ago. You're the guy on the 11 o'clock news who got hoodwinked out of his life savings by some seemingly sincere shyster. You might be a perfectly nice guy in real life. I wouldn't know. I've never met you. Continuing to live the TWI/PFAL/VPW/JAL charade for your own sake is one thing. Promoting it to others as a panacea for their problems is entirely something else. And, when I say "something else" I don't mean something good.

When I was a kid I loved to read. I did a lot of book reports. You find out quickly that you can't simply regurgitate paragraphs or rephrase statements to make them appear original. Right or wrong, you had to give your own take on what you felt the book was saying. So, with that in mind, what is Channing saying? Do you draw any correlations? How is it relevant to this discussion?

What Channing may or not be saying is nowhere nearly as important as the idea of speaking your own thoughts, your own mind, rather than continually defaulting to a parroted encore of previous performances.

In a nutshell:

Think for yourself. You'd be surprised how far you can go beyond what you were taught, despite Wierwille's assertions to the contrary.

edit: spelling

Edited by waysider
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We've offered chances here for various people to speak for themselves

here in a more "neutral" venue- where they don't control the microphone.

That offer came shortly after they shut down THEIR OWN venue and silenced

their own rank-and-file, and has been open since. The closest we've ever

gotten was CANNED COMMERCIALS and people (john) pretending there was some

clever trick to referring to us without naming us, and addressing us

and PRETENDING he had no intention for his ADVERTISEMENTS to end up here

when they were WRITTEN FOR HERE.

Before that, I also so one of his people (as in, someone who answered to

him personally) go to Christian messageboards, pretend to be a Christian

unaffiliated with ces/stfi at the time, and say, in effect,

"Gee, fellow Christians, I just found this Christian website and I'm

finding it has some neat stuff on it, if unusual, what do you guys think?"

We've DECADES of experience with john (and others) making bland commercials

and refusing to communicate openly or as equals. (Not to mention lying-

John promised he would communicate PRIVATELY with anyone who contacted

him PRIVATELY and with their legal names- and some people did so over a

decade ago and still haven't gotten their responses.)

We're also familiar with how easy it is to both POSTURE and announce a

similarity to people in the Bible- they did that in the Bible, too!

It also demonstrates nothing to find a quote from someone else, recent or

old, and announce it is relevant and not bother to THINK FOR ONESELF rather

than a bland, canned response.

"A witty saying proves nothing."-Voltaire.

Except for the insiders who want to believe you, it fails. Outsiders can easily

see the LACK of personal attention and LACK of relevance- especially when asked

to explain the specifics and you are UNABLE or UNWILLING to do so.

====================

Other than wanting to silence the voices at the GSC, I don't see why you're here

so far, and you're no good at accomplishing that with your current efforts.

Perhaps you can make a real effort and are better than the bland attempts so far.

(Or perhaps not-perhaps you really DON'T think beyond repeating what your group's

said no matter how ridiculous it is.) We all have experience with that-

from twi and from the groups formed AFTER twi.

=======================

Meanwhile,

Steve brought up a good question.

Now that I think about it, Jon Touchstone, you're the perfect person to ask! IS the cruelty of Momentus-style "iron sharpening iron" still an instrument in John Lynn's managerial tool box? Lynn won't come here to answer our questions himself.

Love,

Steve

(snip)

"I refer to the duty of candid, charitable judgment, especially towards those who differ in religious opinion." The problem with that is... this isn't just about a simple difference in religious opinion. This is about an abusive con man. I think Wierwille was a conscious, deliberate con man. I think Lynn is a clueless con man, but a con man none the less, one who also is abusive.

Why doesn't anyone from CES, STIFFY, TMNTF, or whatever the acronym for the next iteration is going to be, come on here and discuss the merits of their "package"? Why can't it ever be anything more than an appeal for us to pipe down about the error and the abuse in the name of "brotherly love"?

Does John Lynn still practice Momentus-style "iron sharpening iron"? There's NOTHING humble, mild or candid about THAT!

Love,

Steve

(snip)

We get john doing everything but actually addressing questions

or addressing us, but it's an important question.

Momentus was very harmful to many Christians who participated it,

and used techniques that your quote would seem to condemn.

We've heard that it is no longer OFFICIALLY being used, but is

being recommended under-the-table, covertly, secretly,

despite the known harm,

and no apology for harming anyone was ever made.

Has the thing finally been discontinued, or is it still being

COVERTLY used by john when the microphones are off?

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We've offered chances here for various people to speak for themselves

here in a more "neutral" venue- where they don't control the microphone.

That offer came shortly after they shut down THEIR OWN venue and silenced

their own rank-and-file, and has been open since. The closest we've ever

gotten was CANNED COMMERCIALS and people (john) pretending there was some

clever trick to referring to us without naming us, and addressing us

and PRETENDING he had no intention for his ADVERTISEMENTS to end up here

when they were WRITTEN FOR HERE.

Before that, I also so one of his people (as in, someone who answered to

him personally) go to Christian messageboards, pretend to be a Christian

unaffiliated with ces/stfi at the time, and say, in effect,

"Gee, fellow Christians, I just found this Christian website and I'm

finding it has some neat stuff on it, if unusual, what do you guys think?"

We've DECADES of experience with john (and others) making bland commercials

and refusing to communicate openly or as equals. (Not to mention lying-

John promised he would communicate PRIVATELY with anyone who contacted

him PRIVATELY and with their legal names- and some people did so over a

decade ago and still haven't gotten their responses.)

We're also familiar with how easy it is to both POSTURE and announce a

similarity to people in the Bible- they did that in the Bible, too!

It also demonstrates nothing to find a quote from someone else, recent or

old, and announce it is relevant and not bother to THINK FOR ONESELF rather

than a bland, canned response.

"A witty saying proves nothing."-Voltaire.

Except for the insiders who want to believe you, it fails. Outsiders can easily

see the LACK of personal attention and LACK of relevance- especially when asked

to explain the specifics and you are UNABLE or UNWILLING to do so.

====================

Other than wanting to silence the voices at the GSC, I don't see why you're here

so far, and you're no good at accomplishing that with your current efforts.

Perhaps you can make a real effort and are better than the bland attempts so far.

(Or perhaps not-perhaps you really DON'T think beyond repeating what your group's

said no matter how ridiculous it is.) We all have experience with that-

from twi and from the groups formed AFTER twi.

=======================

Meanwhile,

Steve brought up a good question.

We get john doing everything but actually addressing questions

or addressing us, but it's an important question.

Momentus was very harmful to many Christians who participated it,

and used techniques that your quote would seem to condemn.

We've heard that it is no longer OFFICIALLY being used, but is

being recommended under-the-table, covertly, secretly,

despite the known harm,

and no apology for harming anyone was ever made.

Has the thing finally been discontinued, or is it still being

COVERTLY used by john when the microphones are off?

Hi, WordWolf. I honestly wasn't following everything of what you were going on about, but I did find something you said mildly amusing -- that is, that you quoted someone else -- i.e., "A witty saying proves nothing."-Voltaire -- to make the point that I shouldn't quote someone else. That's good stuff there. ;)

As for your's and Steve's question about Momentus, you'll need to ask someone else. I haven't got the slightest idea of what that's about.

Take care.

Edited by Jon Touchstone
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Hi, WordWolf. I honestly wasn't following much of what you were going on about, but I did find something you said mildly amusing -- that is, that you quoted someone else -- i.e., "A witty saying proves nothing."-Voltaire -- to make the point that I shouldn't quote someone else. That's good stuff there. ;)/>/>/>

As for your's and Steve's question about Momentus, you'll need to ask someone else. I haven't got the slightest idea of what that's about.

Take care.

I don't think anyone meant to imply you can't or shouldn't use quotes to make a point. To suggest they did is being a bit disingenuous. You seemed to have a point in mind that you wanted to stress when you quoted Channing. What was that point?

If you can't or don't want to address that point honestly, please don't drag this into a meta discussion.(ie: a discussion of the discussion, itself) Get back to the point at hand or start a new thread to address your concerns.

As for Momentus, if you truly have no knowledge of the Momentus fiasco, you probably have very little understanding of the history of the organization or individuals you have chosen to defend here. Perhaps educating yourself on that issue would be an enlightening experience for you. As someone in an old 1940's movie once said, (obligatory quote) "It couldn't hoit, bruddah."

edit: My Dad (may he R.I.P.) used to say "Poop or get off the potty chair."

How's about that for a useful quote?

Edited by waysider
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"Ralph, you once were one of the finest and brightest. As I noted to you in our previous exchange, I was a fan. What happened to you? Is this how you're following "the Boss" these days? Is this what you, walking out the Lord's business 30 years later, look like? When he tells you to make your calling and election sure, is this what you do - hang out in chat rooms, bullying and insulting people? Have you forgotten, or does it even matter to you any longer, that the Lord hates bullies? When the Lord tells you to walk as he did, with lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, I'm curious - what courses through yourgrey matter? Do these verses get a chance to bump around in your soul a little, or do you just summarily dismiss them as irrelevantso you can get back to railing on your brethren? Is venom and derision all you have left?"<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px;">"As for my qualifications, I suppose you're right. I have no theological qualifications ... outside of the holy spirit the Lord gave me and the Bible in my hand. It certainly is very humbling. The wonderful news, however, is that I'm among very good company, since these were precisely the qualifications of most of those biblical characters we know and love. I'm sure glad that the Paul didn't hold Peter to the same standards of authenticity that you seem to want to hold me to, brother. The funny thing is, I was under the impression that a person's true credentials come from Jesus, since the Bible teaches that "... it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends." As I recall, you used to teach this very thing, once upon a time. Do you now disagree with this, Ralph? If so, why? "

Jon.......".......the finest and the brightest" at what and among whom? You were "a fan"? Of what? I find it strange that you seem to have enough memories about me to declare you used to be a "fan", and yet, you claim to have no knowledge or recollection of Momentus and your TLTF connection to it and Dan Tocchini. You are a twustee of TLTF, and yet you have no idea what Momentus was and how it destroyed the lives of many of your "chief minister's" followers in CES and STFI? Really Jon??

Convenient memory loss? If you indeed have no knowledge about Momentus and it's connection to the International community of Christian believers you claim TLTF is, then i suggest you either refresh your memory or resign as a twustee of a "ministry" you don't seem to be very knowledgable of, or just plain misspeaking about. Ask your "chief minister" what Momentus was. Jally dumped them too when he couldn't freely plagiarize Tocchini's stuff any more due to "doctrinal differences" between them. Same thing with Schoenheit, Graeser, Gallagher, Patten, Theissens, and everybody else your mog has "tried to work with". Try disagreeing and you'll be next, unless you've still got stuff jally needs to use you for.

"hang out in chat rooms bullying and insulting people"? This is a forum for discussing twit and its various off shoots, of which TLTF is a part. I respond to your post and all of a sudden i'm "bullying and insulting people"? Name two please. As far as "how I walk out The Lord's business", whatever that means, your opinion of how i might be doing that is as meaningless to me as anything else your "chief minister" may have an opinion about. "venom and derision'? I'm not sure that your assessment of what goes on in my functional grey matter is worth any more than that of your "chief minister". He still has not answered any of my questions from 2007! Momentus have his tongue? OOppps! Sorry! You don't know anything about Momentus, yet somehow you and jallyroll "know" what's going on in my mind? I think not, Jon. Venom and derision? Examples please, since there must be so many!? For one who feigns profundity with pedantic, meaningless, quotes of 200 year old smarmy, self-righteous opinions which agree with your archaic understanding of the bible, your "insights" into my grey matter are remarkably shallow at best.

As far as what YOU "recall" me teaching 30 years ago or not, for someone who has no idea what Momentus was and how it directly relates to the "international community of christian believers" YOUR "ministry" purports to represent, and of which you are a moggy twustee right now, i trust your memory as much as i trust your "chief minister's'. He can"t recall me ever confronting him publicly either, and if you scroll down just a few threads right here in this same forum you're posting in, you'll find a thread addressed to him and his old pal, jeff blackburn, which did exactly that for 3 months daily! and, that was 8 years ago! Some "recall" you dudes have!......LOL! I suppose you have no clue about "personal prophecy" either, do you? Watch out for spiders crawling out of your pals' noses!! Happened to Lizzy Chavez and jally divorced her over it! Who's next? You? Not Bottley, because jally still needs stuff Franco has. He doesn't see the spiders until he's done using you, and, from what i can see here, you don't have much left for jally to use. Better take a memory class from jal's old pal davey bedard. That'll help! But, if jally divorces you, "rev" gerry wrenn will gladly suck you up. There's always a home for wierwille idolators.

and, if i disagree with anything i taught 30 years ago, it just might be because, unlike you and jallyroll lynn, i have refused to stay stuck on stupid. I have spent much time in study, critical thought, and self-reflection, regarding all things biblical, scriptural, and spiritual, and have grown far away from 30 year old alcoholic Nazi spiritualism, and the serial adultery and sexual predation that vic and jalvis were so good at and committed to "walking out on". I believe human growth and development are an ongoing part of human life. jalvis believes he got everything he needed to "run a ministry" from vic'n'twit and schoenheit and graesers. He has not repented nor moved on for 30 years now. He's running out of time. dictor paul wierwille, lynn's prayshuss faddah in da woid, ran out of time 30 years ago. jalvis still has a little left. You and he and Bottley need to do the right thing. Dump your charts and get a REAL life....................peace.

Edited by DontWorryBeHappy
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I'm curious about what people did before Darby proclaimed the existence of administrations (dispensations). How did they explain discrepancies and make everything fit like a hand in a sock puppet? Did they understand that the canonical sequence doesn't coincide with the chronology of the writings? Were they aware "there were only 3 kinds of people who ever lived. on. the. earth."? How did that impact their lives? Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited by waysider
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Hi, WordWolf. I honestly wasn't following everything of what you were going on about, but I did find something you said mildly amusing -- that is, that you quoted someone else -- i.e., "A witty saying proves nothing."-Voltaire -- to make the point that I shouldn't quote someone else. That's good stuff there. wink.gif

Take care.

Translated into English, "I wasn't interested in what you had to say, so I will condescendingly dismiss it out of hand rather than asking for clarification."

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I don't want to be the one to point out the obvious, but when an entity calls itself is named The Living Truth fellowship, there is a suggestion that whoever thought up that name believes they are in possession of THE truth, which then assumes that others are not. Some of us think that's arrogant. I suggested to JAL that naming the fellowship that was arrogant. When you start out there, it's pretty hard not to at least be perceived as confrontational. Anyway, some of us have worked through all of this and we find the whole JAL doing the same thing...again...humorous...or sad...or whatever.

I've known JAL for over 30 years; I know knew his parents; his child; his siblings; his wives. I worked with him, ate with him, and "fellowshipped" with him. He is a magnet for the weird. Momentus, personal prophecy, every crazy foot a.s.s thing that came along. He disdained the relative normal of his [privileged, Presbyterian] upbringing in favor of the crazy presented by VPW and then Graeser, Schoenheit, and lastly Gallagher. Ralph was one of a list of people who tried to knock some sense into Schoeinheit and especially JAL regarding the Graesers. When I asked what was up with Ralph and Sue and Robert, it was a dismissal of all of them being "deceived".

Not a one of them JAL, et al, have even considered that they just might be prone to being deceived and Ralph (et al) were just early observers of the beginnings of crazy part II and got out.

When we parted ways I felt nothing but relief as I had come to see that CES/STFI was nothing but a hotbed of ugliness wrapped up in the warm fuzziness of fake "Christian love". I had been in and out of the office since 1993, but for around 2 months I worked in the home office one day a week which happened to be during all the personal prophecy business. That's when I discovered personal prophecy was used to make relationship and business decisions - one of which resulted in JAL's second divorce and several business decisions that were - for want of a better word - stupid. I learned they were serious about this personal prophecy thing just as they were serious about Momentus - you know - the "Christian" retreat that came complete with a 4 page "hold harmless" agreement that JAL convinced about 800 of his closest friends was the fast track to spiritual nirvana. It was this continual attraction to the outlandish and the inevitable drama that finally got my attention and when I tried (probably as Ralph did) to have a rational conversation about the direction they were going and was met with exasperation that I would even question their infinite wisdom...well it was time to make my exit.

I talked to Ralph and he confirmed what I had figured out. People left because it was just a continuation of the old thinking with a few tweaks. If that's what you want - fine. It's not for me.

Edited by Tzaia
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Thanks Tzaia.

I always find your posts so informative and insightful. Your experiences corroborate the same experiences we had with Jalvis, which led to our resignation from the BID of the original CES the day after we incorporated it! I am posting the most recent diatribes from lynn himself to me as I attempted to pist on their Youtube Channel " justtruthitit" end Times Discussion thread. Everything I ever posted anywhere on any of their Facebook pages or YouTube sites has been deleted, including the posts below. Thus just happened this past week. I'm interested in hearing your opinions regarding the latest liefest of the TLTF "chief minister".

My latest response to "day four" of "open discussion" before it gets deleted.

"So.....here again, just like in wierwille's pfal, the "apex of all revelation to the church (of the body of Christ) is not Jesus Christ, but rather, the Epistle of PAUL to the Ephesians! Chapter and verse please?!

Where does it say that anywhere in Scripture? Bullinger says it in his book "the Church Epistles". wierwille says it in his pfal. jalvis says it in his interpretation of Bullinger and wierwille here. But, WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE? Nowhere to be found.

You exchange "the word made flesh" for the words of the Pauline Epistles, and you do so arbitrarily with no scripture to back it up. The centerpiece of YOUR version of Christian living is Paul, not Jesus Christ. After all, JC never knew the "sacred secret" did He?And, if he did, after his resurrection, he never got to say anything about it. Nope! It took Paul to tell everyone what Jesus didn't know and couldn't say! So, you arbitrarily relegate the "founder" of Christianity, to being only TO the Jews, and FOR our learning, but the real "founding president" of the Christian Church is Paul, not Jesus, because Jesus had NO CLUE what he was doing here on Earth, did he? Paul had to tell Him, and Peter, and John, and James, and everybody else including the Debbil! Jesus was just blindly saving mankind without knowing what he was really doing.

But, don C., it is US, the Christian believers who enable Jesus Christ to be where ever He wants or needs to be, not God or even Jesus Himself! He can only BE where there's a faithful believer who knows Paul's revelation "rightly-divided". "Thank god for time zones"???

How about thank god for Christ? Talk about taking the place of Christ?? There it is. Jesus Christ is "only a head" rolling around heaven somewhere. Jesus NEEDS US in order to carry out His Ministry and do His works because He's only a head rolling around aimlessly somewhere until WE allow Him to be wherever our alarm clocks are! And, you wonder why your "ministry" is called anti(against)-Christ?? I wonder why you wonder.

Then, for ALLOWING Jesus to be wherever YOU and your alarm clock are, and for doing all THE WORKS He can't because He's just a rolling head somewhere, YOU get rewards from Him for doing what He couldn't do on His own. And, you and Jesus would never know any of this if Paul hadn't told you ?? Gimme a break!

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, not Paul. Jesus Christ taught us how to love and live as Christians, not the Pauline Epistles. It was by Jesus Christ's stripes we were healed, not what Paul's back looked like! Jesus Christ is the apex of all revelation to the Church, not Ephesians. Jesus Christ was the full reflection of God's glory, Truth, and Righteousness, not Paul or his "sacred secret". Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith", not Paul and his epistles. And, it is apparent from your "chief minister's" never-ending classes and teachings, that TLTF has no concept of the position of authority and supremacy Jesus Christ holds in and over the Church that bears His name. We are not called to be Paulians! Paul did not save us. Paul is not going to gather us together. Paul is not the King of God's Kingdom. Paul is not the source of revelation or gifts of healing. Paul does not "take the place of the absent Christ", and Paul does not reward you for living like a Christian can.

That's all usurpation of the works and ministry of the Savior, not service to Him or His Body. You have exchanged the resurrected Christ for one of His apostles, and limited that risen Christ to YOUR ability to believe in Him. You accept Him not as The King that He is, but only as the means to making sure YOU get rewarded for doing His job! Which you cannot do, which you've never done, and which you will never accomplish until YOU repent of your evil deeds and false teachings done in His name.

You need to get God's Chart and accept "the fullness of the Godhead bodily" as your life. Your charts lead only to the abject and cruel darkness of idolatry and separation from the Only Way, Truth, and LIFE, the Lord Jesus Christ. Accept the Christ and Get His Life. All TLTF does is pimp for jalvis. You are a disgrace to Jesus Christ and Our Heavenly Father. Get right before The Boss."

Here's a post from jallyroll.

"Ralphie, I don't have time at the moment to dissect your misguided diatribe in detail, but it is clear to me that you have absolutely no real idea of what we are teaching, for if you did, you would see that ALL of it exalts JESUS (and light years beyond anything TWI ever did). It is JESUS who gave Paul all his revelation (Gal. 1:11), so Paul's words could also be in red letters, because they come from the heart of Christ. The question is TO WHOM (Israel or the Church) was Jesus speaking when, and we lay all that out most clearly. Every good thing you say about Jesus is contained in our teachings, in vivid detail. For 28+ years THOUSANDS of former PFAL grads have rejoiced because of how our work has pointed them to a vital, personal relationship with JESUS. Your comments are so far off the mark it is pitiful. Why don't you suspend your incessant vitriol and give our work an honest hearing? If you do, you will see the degree to which we honor our Lord--not only in what we teach but how we deal with those he loves. And, for the record, when did you change your mind about my heart and character, which you have known for years is honest and forthright (just as it was in 1987 when we teamed up for a while)? The way you are spewing lies about me is evidence of your own internal aberrance, and it breaks my heart. I still love you madly, and though you did not return my last phone call, I will call you again to see if we can have a civil discussion. In the meantime, the good news is that JESUS, not you, is determining whether or not we are magnifying him--and the fruit of our labor seems to indicate that he is backing us. So does THE WORD."

My reply:

Jalvis......

Have you ever read the thread addressed to you and Jeff Blackburn at the GSC? It was written in 2007. You have yet to answer any of those posts from 8 years ago. Do you not recall ever seeing any of those? I find it hard to believe that you really think I have somehow "change(d) (my)your mind about my character" or that you never read anything on that thread I mentioned from 8 years ago. I remember a phone call from a mutual psychiatrist friend who asked me why you would say I was "busting your chops" at the GSC 8 years ago. Do you remember complaining to him 8 years ago about that? Apparently NOT. I have NOT known your "character" to be "honest and forthright" since 1987.

I remember telling you how full of crap you were on Momentus and the Graeser's and Schoenheit coming to be on the Board of CES in 1988. Sue Peirce and Robert Belt told you the same thing in 1988, when we a resigned from CES' "founding Board of Directors" because you refused to listen then either. Schoenheit and Greasers worked out real well for you too, didn't they?

And, you never have said anything publicly about your whole personal prophecy fiasco, the dumping of your wife and public embarrassment and lying about the same, or your not-so-gracious split from Tocchini and Momentus. Where are all those folks today? Standing right by your side confirming your various phony versions of Vic's monstrosity called twi? As much as Sue, Robert, and I are and have been since 1988?........LOL!

What has NOT changed in all these years jal, is YOU, and your worship of wierwille and yourself. THAT's ALL THE SAME. You still cannot work with ANYONE who does not defer to you in all "things of the ministry" you claim to have given your life to for the last 45 years. The same happened to Bob Maffit and will to Bottley, Touchstone, Knopf, Chamberlain, Culver, Wassung, Lewis and Higgins when and if they ever question your version of Da Word. You're still the same you you've always been. You've hurt far more people than you have ever "blessed", and remain to this day your arrogant and self-obsessed self-appointed "hero" for Jesus and vic, who would both be so proud of what you're doing. But, what you ARE is far from what you are saying you're doing. You're so busy "doing" Christ's job for Him, that you do not realize what you're "being" is against that same Christ.

You remain as blind as you were when you hitchhiked along on that 37-page letter we wrote in 1987. As a matter of fact, you are more apologetic for and accepting of vic's teachings and "minus-tray" today than you were when you were still fulltime for twi at the writing of that letter. You still believe in the same basics vic did, and you never repented for ALL the behavioral peccadilloes you so readily adopted from him either. Why were you fired by CES/STFI? Why were you defrocked by the very guys you insisted on having in your BOD? What were you believing the word to say while you were publicly disgracing your new wife and CES/STFI over and over again all over the worldwide web? What in the hell was your "Prophetic Council" all about? Why did you listen to them? Why did you teach spiritualist garbage and never explain it to the world you dumped it on? What is your current relationship with Schoenheit, Graeser and Bob Maffit? What is your current relationship with Tocchini and Greg Pharis(sp?)? What's your current relationship with Sue Pierce and Robert Belt, and Pat, and Tom Reahard? Which of your "old, dear, friends and pals" are still your friends jal?

I "spew" no lies about you. Point out a couple so we all know what you're talking about, won't you? Don't bother waiting for me to answer a phone call from you JAL. YOU posted the same old crap again here as you were "spewing" in 1987, and refused to answer for in 2007. Post it all on YOUR own site of FB page. You've got enough of them now. You don't need the GSC, or the Way Corps FB page to do your dirty work for you. You don't need Touchstone and Bottley answering for you either. Do it right here, on your own site, in your own words. This is where you've dumped all your junk before. What do you have to hide?

Reply from jallymog:

"Sorry, Ralph, but I have more important things to do than type my life away answering b.s. allegations from you. You know nothing about most of the things you bring up, and neither do you have any genuine interest in my welfare, so God bless you. See you at the Bema. If you want to talk man-to-man, call me."

My last response:

"Typical cop out with the same as always ending,

"Call me". LOL! Like I said, YOU HAVE YET TO CHANGE YOU. Don't wait for a phone call from me. If 8 years is too long to get an answer from you, my return phone can wait too.

Get right with Jesus Christ, and get a life! Your charts aren't giving you much of anything other than aggita."

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Here's a note from Sue Pierce to jallyroll:

"Sorry, John, but I was there for a lot of your nonsense, and what Ralph has written here is not "b.s. allegations". If Ralph didn't have a genuine concern for your welfare, he wouldn't bother continuing to try to agitate you toward repentance and doctrinal correction. But you've clearly decided NOT to correct or repent. Your remark that Ralph knows "nothing about most of the things [he] brings up" is also not correct. I was there. I know.

As for me, I really don't care all that much about you. You are what you are--a selfish deceiver. After your recent prayer group's petition for God to turn me over to satan for my destruction, I'm done with you. How you can make that kind of prayer and, with the same mouth, claim to teach Truth from the Scripture confounds me. You're on the train to hell, jal, and I don't really care any more. Ralph does care. He is by far a better person than I am."

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Clash of the Titans.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I once admired both these men for the same reasons (JALvis and DWBH), and seeing them interact this way is fascinating. I pass judgment on neither, on DWBH because there is none to pass, or on JALvis because my opinion is both irrelevant and altered by my newfound, profound worldview disagreement.

Fascinating discussion and thread.

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Here's a post from jallyroll.

"...For 28+ years THOUSANDS of former PFAL grads have rejoiced because of how our work has pointed them to a vital, personal relationship with JESUS..."

"Thousands," huh? Really.

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Thousands.

You realize he HAS to be counting people who have fled from him, CES, STFI, TTYL, LOL and whatever other acronyms they've conjured up since then, right?

He's counting me. I'm an atheist now.

He's probably counting Steve L. He's probably counting Tzaia. He's counting the thanks, and ignoring what happened later. You know, the results.

In my view, the inability of TWI offshoots, all taught the same principles at the same time by the same people using the same source material, to cohere on doctrine after leaving TWI is evidence that the task itself is flawed. Either the principles are no good or the source material isn't. (Or both, as I see it). You can't cohere on doctrine after TWI anymore than hundreds of denominations had been able to before TWI.

At some point you have to realize there IS no baby in the bathwater.

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Thousands.

You realize he HAS to be counting people who have fled from him, CES, STFI, TTYL, LOL and whatever other acronyms they've conjured up since then, right?

He's counting me. I'm an atheist now.

He's probably counting Steve L. He's probably counting Tzaia. He's counting the thanks, and ignoring what happened later. You know, the results.

In my view, the inability of TWI offshoots, all taught the same principles at the same time by the same people using the same source material, to cohere on doctrine after leaving TWI is evidence that the task itself is flawed. Either the principles are no good or the source material isn't. (Or both, as I see it). You can't cohere on doctrine after TWI anymore than hundreds of denominations had been able to before TWI.

At some point you have to realize there IS no baby in the bathwater.

Thousands.

You realize he HAS to be counting people who have fled from him, CES, STFI, TTYL, LOL and whatever other acronyms they've conjured up since then, right?

He's counting me. I'm an atheist now.

He's probably counting Steve L. He's probably counting Tzaia. He's counting the thanks, and ignoring what happened later. You know, the results.

In my view, the inability of TWI offshoots, all taught the same principles at the same time by the same people using the same source material, to cohere on doctrine after leaving TWI is evidence that the task itself is flawed. Either the principles are no good or the source material isn't. (Or both, as I see it). You can't cohere on doctrine after TWI anymore than hundreds of denominations had been able to before TWI.

At some point you have to realize there IS no baby in the bathwater.

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