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Priest says Hell is an invention of the church to control people with fear


year2027
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I think it's hard to get around hell Biblically. The only thing you can do is argue whether it's literal or metaphorical. I think the case for a metaphorical hell is Biblically stronger than a literal one, but that's just my opinion.

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Mark, this is a discussion forum.

While there's nothing wrong with pointing people to your content off-site, it would be really nice if, on-site, you actually added to the discussion.

If I have to leave GSC to find out what you think about a subject, you're doing it wrong.

I say this as a fellow poster, not as a moderator.

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Mark, do you think the literalist concept of hell is an honest mistake or a deliberate attempt to control people through fear? Your article does not address that question, and that question (it appears to me) lies at the heart of this thread.

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Raf, this is under doctrinal. Therefore adding of scriptural information is part of this. People or spiritual beings add deliberate deception all the time. And yes, part of this can be to control people with fear.

As an example of deliberate deception, the first biblical deception in chapter 3 of Genesis is the statement, "You will not surely die". Do people at least see that with the life of our physical bodies there is also decay resulting in death? And not decay resulting in a new life?

Since this deception is done through missed information from the bible, In order to remedy this deception, people need more accurate and truthful educational information from the bible. Otherwise, a person that believes in the bible, unlike yourself, could believe in errant deceptive information.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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I know adding scripture is part of this. But pasting a scriptural analysis that fails to address the question being asked is out of place, whether in doctrinal or any other forum.

"Hey, look! Here's an article that doesn't address the question you asked!" does not advance the discussion in this discussion forum.

So thank you for the article you posted, but even more, for answering the question.

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I don't know what my belief or unbelief has to do with the topic, but ok.

Do you (or anyone else) think that people who believe in a literal hell are not sincere in their belief that a literal hell is what the Bible teaches?

Or do you think that a literal hell is a deliberate attempt by church powers to deceive Christians to make them easier to control? (I'm not talking about spiritual powers because if we're talking about spiritual powers, the attempt to deceive is not deliberate on the part of the people. They're just deceived and wrong. I'm talking about people who KNOW there is no literal hell but teach it anyway).

I suppose a separate question about whether some of the writers of the New Testament deliberately invented a literal hell would be better placed in the Questioning Faith forum, but I don't see that as the issue being raised in this thread, so let's not entertain that question, since this thread has nothing to do with my atheism or anyone else's.

Who invented a literal hell? God, through the inspiration of the Bible? Demonic forces sowing confusion in the church about what the Bible really teaches? Or church leaders inventing a method to control people?

Like I said above (post 2), it's hard to get around the fact that the Bible does teach hell as a place of eternal punishment. But was it supposed to be taken literally? Mark's article would suggest not, but honest Christians disagree (I'm not saying Mark's not honest. I'm saying that there are honest people on both sides of this question).

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Because of a busy as a bee work schedule, I don't have time to answer questions and make a lot of statements. However, regarding the question of eternal punishment. I have written an article showing this is NOT a true statement as it relates to biblical content while studying the word "Age", which is the New Testament word for a long period of time. Yes, reading my article will take time, but not as long of time that I spent writing this article with link below.

Age and the Greek Words Aion, Aionas and Aionios

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Apparently there is at least one reference to eternal punishment:

Matthew 25:44-46

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Maybe, but what about the preceding verses?

Matthew 25:32-41

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This last verse usually is viewed as meaning that the lake of fire is only for the devil and his angels, but reading the whole context, it doesn't really say that

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Matthew 25:42-46

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aiōnios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aiōnios].

KJV

Matthew 25:46 can be used to promote the pagan concept of eternal torment for a lifetime of sin. However, the context is the more simplified doing good works of feeding and clothing the poor or people who need it the most. As we know eternal torment for simply not feeding or clothing the poor does not follow the love of God and a number of other verses and godly concepts. Or as Mark 8:4, states in a question to Jesus, "Where can we get enough bread to feed them?" Here feeding all the people involved a miracle of God carried out by Jesus Christ. Should we be punished eternally for not praying and believing for a miracle of God? Or for not spending all of our own money to help feed the poor?

Torment in Matthew 25:46 is the Greek word (using my very good biblical software) kolasis, which is Strong's number 2851. According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon this means correction, punishment, penalty. Yes, punishment and penalty is involved in this. However, correction is also involved with God through his Son Jesus Christ having the goal of correcting mankind from its sin nature or in this case lack of ability to help our fellow man. The only other usage of kolasis, translated punishment in the entire New Testament is read in I John 4:18. This verse reads as follows:

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment (kolasis). But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

Here punishment, also called torment, involves fear. Fear is the Greek word fobos, Strong's #5401 and according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, fear means dread and terror or it can mean reverence and respect. With 46 usages of fobos (fear) in the New Testament, we can see both usages. When using actual reason and logic, we should see the goal of correcting or improving mankind so that we all will help our fellow man.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Matthew 25:46 can be used to promote the pagan concept of eternal torment for a lifetime of sin. However, the context is the more simplified doing good works of feeding and clothing the poor or people who need it the most. As we know eternal torment for simply not feeding or clothing the poor does not follow the love of God and a number of other verses and godly concepts. Or as Mark 8:4, states in a question to Jesus, "Where can we get enough bread to feed them?" Here feeding all the people involved a miracle of God carried out by Jesus Christ. Should we be punished eternally for not praying and believing for a miracle of God? Or for not spending all of our own money to help feed the poor?

One would hope not, yet it says just that; specifically fire in v. 41
When using actual reason and logic, we should see the goal of correcting or improving mankind so that we all will help our fellow man.

What I see is that you have ignored the use of a place of eternal firey punishment becauase it does not square with what you see somewhere else in the bible
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Oakspear, you are misunderstanding the word fire and the many biblical usages. Here you are only looking at the usage in verse 41 as it relates to the devil and the devil spirits. You are also misunderstanding the word age, which is often written in biblical usages of a limited time period.

Usages of the word Age with a time limit

So are you one of the people that believes in eternal torment for a lifetime of sin? :confused:

So how can we have a God of justice with that belief?

This present evil age has a time limit. Life is eternal only as it relates to God who is eternal.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Oakspear, you are misunderstanding the word fire and the many biblical usages. Here you are only looking at the usage in verse 41 as it relates to the devil and the devil spirits.

Correct, I am only looking at verse 41. Please enlighten me on how fire doesn't mean fire in this verse. I would concede that it is probably talking about fire figuratively and not literally. But it is surely not only referring to the "devil and his angels" ("devil spirits" is not a term that you will find in the bible) - Jesus refers to "all nations" (surely not including the devil and his angels) and separates them into sheep and goats. Whoever the goats are, they are told by Jesus to depart "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". A plain reading would indicate that the goats go to the same place that the devil and his angels end up
You are also misunderstanding the word age, which is often written in biblical usages of a limited time period.

Usages of the word Age with a time limit

Is "eternal life" limited too? Because in Verse 46 eternal punishment and eternal life are paired; it would seem illogical to assume that the word "eternal" means different things there
So are you one of the people that believes in eternal torment for a lifetime of sin? :confused:/>
My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion
So how can we have a God of justice with that belief?
Not strictly the subject of the thread, but I'm not the one who wrote the book :evilshades:
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The word translated everlasting in Matthew 25:41 and 25:46 is the Greek word aiōnios. This is Strong's number 166. This is related to the word translated a number of times in the noun form as age, which is aion in the Greek. Did you click my link above and see the many usages of this word with a time limit. The descriptive adjective used word is aionios. A definition of aionios is of or belonging to the age or ages. Since aion or age is often seen with a time limit then aionios can also mean enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. This related word could also simply refer to that which comes from God and relate to His purposes over a period of time or a number of periods of times or even eternal. It is important to understand that this word could refer to eternal or a period of time that has an ending. Click the link above and clearly see this.

If you want information on this then read my article, which also cover 1 Corinthians 15. This chapter was written by Paul who had more knowledge than other biblical writers.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Just for fun I looked up Strong's Concordance online

While the noun form is sometimes translated "age", here's Strong's definition:

αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

The adjective form is not translated in a way that limits it's scope, here's its definition:

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

I'm understanding just fine by the way, however I do not agree with your conclusions

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So then Oakspear you sound like one of the people that believes in eternal torment for a lifetime of sin. This belief originated in pagan religions. Egyptian had some of this and then Greek philosophy added to this. So apparently you also believe in ancient Greek philosophy. Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Here is a link to some historical information on the origin of the belief of hell.

The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching

Here is another link with some historical information as to the origin of the belief of the hell myth

These articles are not biblical studies. Instead they offer some historical information.

Here is some more actual biblical information. Oakspear very likely won't believe this. Perhaps in part because I wrote the commentary following the verses. However, other people that have read it have liked it and agreed with it.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

NIV

God has delegated all things pertaining to the church for the salvation of mankind under Jesus Christ his Son. We see in the above verses in Adam all die and in Christ all will be made alive. Since we have death for all of humanity, even Jesus Christ, we have in or through Christ all in the future made alive. This order of life after death is Christ first being raised from the dead. Then when He comes those who belong to him or the followers of Jesus Christ being raised from the dead. For an explanation of this see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Next we see all dominion, authority and power destroyed with Jesus Christ reigning as King or ruler until He has put all, and this includes even his enemies, under his feet or rulership. Then the last enemy to be destroyed is death. In the original Greek the word for destroyed (katargeoo) means "to render idle, unemployed, inoperative, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish". Death cannot be destroyed by there only being no further death. Death can only be destroyed and put to an end with the addition of a general resurrection. When death is finally destroyed this means no more death for humanity with all being made alive. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of all or everything under His lordship or rulership, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God will or "may be all in all". This means all of humanity under God's commandments and with God's character, the foundation of which according to Jesus Christ as seen in Matthew 22:36-40 is to love God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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So then Oakspear you sound like one of the people that believes in eternal torment for a lifetime of sin. This belief originated in pagan religions. Egyptian had some of this and then Greek philosophy added to this. So apparently you also believe in ancient Greek philosophy. Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Mark, this is a doctrinal discussion forum. My personal beliefs are irrelevant to the discussion and I will not be discussing them with you. I am asking you nicely to discontinue your attempts to make this about me and my beliefs, or what you believe are my beliefs.

Once again I read what you wrote, but disagree with your conclusions, which do not really address what the author of Mathew is saying that Jesus is calling eternal punishment.

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Just for fun I looked up Strong's Concordance online

While the noun form is sometimes translated "age", here's Strong's definition:

αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

The adjective form is not translated in a way that limits it's scope, here's its definition:

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

I'm understanding just fine by the way, however I do not agree with your conclusions

Are you saying that-

ACCORDING TO STRONG'S-

it might be equally accurate to render the same Greek expression either

"forever and ever"

OR

"to the ages of the ages"?

Last time I worked on it, I rendered it the latter, since it seems the most direct translation.

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So, a man dies and goes to Hell. Upon arriving, he is greeted by the Devil. The Devil proceeds to tell him his punishment is to read GreaseSpot Cafe, 24/7/365. "Oh, that's not so bad", he says to himself. Then he clicks on the site and finds there is only one forum.....Doctrinal.

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Are you saying that-

ACCORDING TO STRONG'S-

it might be equally accurate to render the same Greek expression either

"forever and ever"

OR

"to the ages of the ages"?

Last time I worked on it, I rendered it the latter, since it seems the most direct translation.

WW, I haven't dug that deep. My purpose was to show that the word translated "eternal" refers both to eternal life and eternal punishment (specified as "fire") and that one couldn't logically define aionios as both limited in time and eternal in the same verse
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