Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life.
I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act.
They simply don't grasp the fullness of …
Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
And1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA."
Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance.
John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc...
...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things
...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time?
...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :(
(I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!".
... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)
Oh no....it's the same "Christ in me". He is present within me.
If it's the same Christ (the one and only) in you, then why think or suppose that you have (or would need) anything else (as in, "spirit") from him (or God)?
Sure, I know what was taught (and what is predominantly thought) in pfal and twi.
But what if something isn't quite right in how "body, soul & spirit" is taught from Genesis?
What do the scriptures actually say concerning this "gift of holy spirit" from God?
Gal. 4
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Where did (or do) we get the idea that once we have (the ascended) Christ (aka, "a quickening spirit") living within us that "it"(?) is now "my spirit"?
I'm still learning and working at understanding how these things fit together... even after 40 some years. And you don't even want to know my perspective on how many WC (and I'll include myself) back in the day "thought" they understood a lot more than they really did concerning this (and "the gift.")
Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life.
If you did that, then wouldn't you be endeavoring to live your life as a Jew (according to all the law), and your outreach message would be designed to and for the nation of Israel (as was his)? And what do you do with 2Cor.5:16? Cut it out of the Bible? Or, do you discard Paul's epistles whenever or where ever they disagree with you?
TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him.
The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to.
Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.
TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him.
Seriously? Did you miss what I wrote in the following post (on this thread) from a couple of weeks ago?
(snip)
Furthermore, the Aaronic priesthood was not to the world, but to the nation of Israel. The entire nation of Israel is actually spoken of in prophecy as (conditionally) becoming a kingdom of priests, which, by reason of priestly function, would have been to the all the rest of the world. This is also why the ascended Christ is spoken of as being a priest after the order of Melchisedec in Hebrews. Melchisedec was a priest to the whole world, Aaron was not.
And as for these comments:
Please don't be argumentative.
Why do you view my asking you to further explain what your thinking is concerning how "modeling your life" after how Jesus actually lived while on this earth (which I briefly stated, but have no problem substantiating with scripture), when it appears to contradict what Paul plainly wrote in 2 Cor.5:16? Because I then offer what appears to be the simplest or most obvious possibilities?
It appears that you're now merely trying to dodge the (logical and succinct) question.
(Though, if I were to be argumentative, I would call you out the rather condescending nature of your response to my post.)
TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread.
The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions.
BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.
TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be.
Because they've been mentioned 4 or 5 times already in this thread, 3 of which (including the first) were by your very highly respected pal, DWBH, in this post:
(snip)
5) Your comparison of Pauline Scripture with anything else, (I.e. Gospels, Old Testament) regarding understanding these "gift ministries" prior to the Ascension of Christ? What is available OUTSIDE PAUL regarding "Apostles, prophets, or teachers"? The Aaronic Priesthoid was to the world, and therefore I would include "pastors and evangelists" as functions of the Aaronic Priesthood to Israel and the world.
Which stirred this response from you:
DWBH, please don 't attack TLC; better if you just ignore him!
But since you encourage further discussion, this is what I asked you:
Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them.
And that could give some useful insight.
Thanks, Twinx
Discussions wander, as that's their nature, especially on such an elusive subject as this. If you object so vehemently to my post, you're certainly free to report them for removal. Fact is, given your early suggestion to ignore me, I probably wouldn't even be here posting to you in this thread right now if it weren't for the interest expressed by krys in discussing things further. Furthermore, I actually posted a rather succinct, very carefully phrased definition of an apostle that elicited no comments or responses thus far. Evidently, I must not have the right title, nametag, or position that what I said warranted any of your attention or honest consideration, aside from sparking the abundant criticism that you've thrown my direction. But, whatever. It's no skin off my nose.
Perhaps we could have a sensible discussion about those famous "gift ministries" – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
And let's not forget about these other "gift ministries" that got very little press in TWI:
From this whole chapter (sometimes headed Concerning Spiritual Gifts) we see again that there are Apostles, Prophets, Teachers – and also Workers of Miracles, Healers, Guides, and Speakers in Tongues. No mention of Pastors or Evangelists! But lots of mention of other "gift ministries."
For what it is worth, VP did teach that one of the qualifications of being an apostle is that the one must have "seen" Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is still "new light" to all who see him. And he WILL make himself known to any who want to know him.
PLEASE PUT ASIDE ALL TWI-TYPE DEFINITIONS and let's see how mainstream churches (if such a thing exists) defines in particular these ministries " – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Who are these people (if they are still existing today) and what is their role? Who decides this? How? What "qualifies" them for these roles? Are the people of both sexes or are only males considered suitable? Has any prophet spoken something that should/should not be done and it has observably come to pass yet? Or is a prophet simply someone of special wisdom?
Maybe you go to a church where it is believed that these roles don't exist/ died out with the first bunch in C1. Have you formulated an idea of what these people did?
Say what you want and if you want to define any role, please make it clear what role or roles you are discussing. I accept DWBH's point that there are no limitations or qualifications from God's point of view. However, there has to be some particular thing that makes these particularly gifted people different, or more outstanding, in that role, from the general congregation. Otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing, with the risk of there being uncertain sounds and us being clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13).
I TRULY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A TWI-BASHING THREAD – can we have a sensible unhistrionic discussion please?
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krys
Now this is going to be difficult to write: I absolutely believe these are gifts to the church. However...the individual uses or operates them for the benefit of the church.
Twinky
Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life.
I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act.
They simply don't grasp the fullness of …
Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
And 1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA."
Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance.
John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc...
...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things
...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time?
...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :(
(I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!".
... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)
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TLC
If it's the same Christ (the one and only) in you, then why think or suppose that you have (or would need) anything else (as in, "spirit") from him (or God)?
Sure, I know what was taught (and what is predominantly thought) in pfal and twi.
But what if something isn't quite right in how "body, soul & spirit" is taught from Genesis?
What do the scriptures actually say concerning this "gift of holy spirit" from God?
Gal. 4
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Where did (or do) we get the idea that once we have (the ascended) Christ (aka, "a quickening spirit") living within us that "it"(?) is now "my spirit"?
I'm still learning and working at understanding how these things fit together... even after 40 some years. And you don't even want to know my perspective on how many WC (and I'll include myself) back in the day "thought" they understood a lot more than they really did concerning this (and "the gift.")
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TLC
If you did that, then wouldn't you be endeavoring to live your life as a Jew (according to all the law), and your outreach message would be designed to and for the nation of Israel (as was his)? And what do you do with 2Cor.5:16? Cut it out of the Bible? Or, do you discard Paul's epistles whenever or where ever they disagree with you?
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Twinky
TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him.
The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to.
Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.
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TLC
Seriously? Did you miss what I wrote in the following post (on this thread) from a couple of weeks ago?
And as for these comments:
Why do you view my asking you to further explain what your thinking is concerning how "modeling your life" after how Jesus actually lived while on this earth (which I briefly stated, but have no problem substantiating with scripture), when it appears to contradict what Paul plainly wrote in 2 Cor.5:16? Because I then offer what appears to be the simplest or most obvious possibilities?
It appears that you're now merely trying to dodge the (logical and succinct) question.
(Though, if I were to be argumentative, I would call you out the rather condescending nature of your response to my post.)
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Twinky
TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread.
The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions.
BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.
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TLC
Because they've been mentioned 4 or 5 times already in this thread, 3 of which (including the first) were by your very highly respected pal, DWBH, in this post:
Which stirred this response from you:
Discussions wander, as that's their nature, especially on such an elusive subject as this. If you object so vehemently to my post, you're certainly free to report them for removal. Fact is, given your early suggestion to ignore me, I probably wouldn't even be here posting to you in this thread right now if it weren't for the interest expressed by krys in discussing things further. Furthermore, I actually posted a rather succinct, very carefully phrased definition of an apostle that elicited no comments or responses thus far. Evidently, I must not have the right title, nametag, or position that what I said warranted any of your attention or honest consideration, aside from sparking the abundant criticism that you've thrown my direction. But, whatever. It's no skin off my nose.
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Tom
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