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The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors?


Raf
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O.K., So many folks wanna talk about twi in general and avoid the origninal question/s?

This thread is getting old and those of you, and you know who you are, will not post in answer to the question/s.

Well, if I decide to continue reading stuff on GSC, I will do so with a renewed mind and with an understanding that there is nothing to be learned, at least doctrinally from the so called experts.

Yep, you corp folk took thousands of $ from folks and did nothing with it.

And you dis me for my bad opinion of corp folk.

Just answer the frik'n questions and stop hopping around the thing.

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O.K., So many folks wanna talk about twi in general and avoid the origninal question/s?

This thread is getting old and those of you, and you know who you are, will not post in answer to the question/s.

Well, if I decide to continue reading stuff on GSC, I will do so with a renewed mind and with an understanding that there is nothing to be learned, at least doctrinally from the so called experts.

Yep, you corp folk took thousands of $ from folks and did nothing with it.

And you dis me for my bad opinion of corp folk.

Just answer the frik'n questions and stop hopping around the thing.

Your demands are getting old.

If you wonder about any given person and which corpse they were in, why aren't you asking them that question?

Like I and others have said before, people have already answered that question repeatedly on other threads.

You may also want to explain why it matters to you which corpse any given person was in?

Have you obtained any of Daniel Goleman's books yet?

No one has asked to see your DD214, MRAP. That's not how this place works.

Exactly.

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O.K., So many folks wanna talk about twi in general and avoid the origninal question/s?

This thread is getting old and those of you, and you know who you are, will not post in answer to the question/s.

Well, if I decide to continue reading stuff on GSC, I will do so with a renewed mind and with an understanding that there is nothing to be learned, at least doctrinally from the so called experts.

Yep, you corp folk took thousands of $ from folks and did nothing with it.

And you dis me for my bad opinion of corp folk.

Just answer the frik'n questions and stop hopping around the thing.

MRAP.....there you go again: 1)lump assumptions and 2)low reading comprehension.

My response to Raf's question.......Post #2

"After some 7,000 posts on Waydale and GSC to expose the wierwille mystique,

I would have to cast my lot that the corps were victims."

The reason I answered "corps were VICTIMS"........was because Raf put QUALIFIERS

in his two choices: 1)Corps as the epitome of TWI's victims or 2)the epitome of what

made TWI oppressive in the first place. To me, the QUALIFIERS made all the difference

in my answer.

I guess it might depend on how one viewed Raf's qualifier "in the first place."

To me, wierwille was THE FIRST PLACE where oppressive measures were derived.......

wierwille was the oppressor and the corps, like others programs and measures, were

victims in this cult. As twi grew, the victims could, in turn, oppress others in this

dark caste system.

.

Edited by skyrider
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I've said it before on this thread...in any category or "rung on the ladder" it depended on the individual the degree to which they could be a victim or oppressor or somewhere in between. Surely there was enough variety to demonstrate that there is no one-size-fits all description. The degree to which a person who was inclined to be an "oppressor" actually was able tp act oppressively depended on the degree of authority that they had within the TWI structure. As a WOW, we could all be jackasses to one another, but it was only the WOW coordinator who could do it "officially". In a twig setting anyone could be judgemental and nosy about the details of others' lives, but only the limb coordinator could mark and avoid you...etc, etc.

I think that's a good point.

I've generally thought of a Twig/HHF as self-destructive in nature. With leadership or with no leadership, it doesn't matter. To practice the teachings of VPW is to eventually attack each other.

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Hey, RAF, by way, what's your affiliation with twi? I have come to question your authenticity. Please don't refer me to past threads. Realy, where and when?

MRAP, I don't care for your tone. You don't get to boss me around like a trained seal. You question my authenticity? Yuck foo. Do you have any idea how many times I have worked behind the scenes to get people I LIKE to stop questioning YOUR authenticity because it was disrespectful and in violation of our rules? And how many times did you ask for my assistance? Not once. Because you didn't have to. I stood up for you because it was right, not because you asked.

And you have the unmitigated GALL to question my authenticity and boss me around like the Corps trainers you claim to despise? Seriously, fornicate yourself with a pine cone, you g-d ingrate.

Edited by Raf
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MRAP,

I get better results around here when I´m polite and ask nicely.

When I ask nicely, I am not guaranteed to get the results I want.

That happens with adults.

If you can´t handle that, leave and go somewhere you like.

Notice how you´ve been given a lot of latitude and been disagreed with and

found rude and yet nobody´s banned you yet,

just said to act like an adult.

That´s the GSC way but it´s not the twi way- they would have just kicked you

ans smeared your name.

Keep it up at this pace, however, and don´t be surprised if a tantrum is met

with some anti-tantrum measure.

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O.K., So many folks wanna talk about twi in general and avoid the origninal question/s?

This thread is getting old and those of you, and you know who you are, will not post in answer to the question/s.

So you're mad because not everyone here opts to hang laundry out on a clothesline like you do, and now you'd choose to cattleprod them (if you could) into submission to your low life ways? Some neighborhoods don't take all that kindly to folk next door hangin' clothes out on a line for all the world passing by to see. Not so much here, though. A whole lot of laundry gets hung out 'round here (say nothing of how much of it is dirty or stinkin'), but there's also a whole lot that isn't.

Why play the victim card if its already been tossed in the discard pile and something you no longer hold in hand? I wasn't so young, stupid, naïve, or unspiritual (or whatever other adjective you want to throw in there) that it allows me to shuck the fact that in spite of anything (or everything) that I did or didn't know, I am the one that made the choices I did back then - and no one made them for me. This isn't intended to discredit anyone that was (or views themselves as having been) victimized, but rather, to make the simple point that even though there are times when certain things in life arose to hurt me, they don't own me.

...I will do so with a renewed mind and with an understanding that there is nothing to be learned...

Now there's an oxymoron.

Yep, you corp folk took thousands of $ from folks and did nothing with it.

You're a real jokester, aren't you?

(not to mention being as clueless to the truth as a rock...)

And you dis me for my bad opinion of corp folk.

When you lump them all together like that? I'd say the dissin's been rather mild.

Edited by TLC
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It's not either/or, in my view

It depends on what the Corps person did and with what attitude they did it

It depends on what individuals did with the power and authority that they had over other people

From what I read here, some of you Corps grads were on the receiving end of mental abuse that I can't even imagine...but I also observed Corps grads dishing it out and who were (apparently) willing participants in the top-down abuse that originated with Wierwille, and I was lucky enough to know Corps grads who were good people who did nothing but "bless" the lives of those they came in contact with

But you didn't have to be a Corps grad to be a victimizer, to be an abuser of power

I did not go through the Corps (I signed up, participated in Apprentice Corps meetings etc, didn't get my money together and never tried again) but I am not proud to say that I was party to and complicit in abuses as were other non-Corps people. A couple of people who I categorize as those whom I would most like to hit in the face with a hammer were not Corps...you just can't make a blanket statement about a whole class of people

I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team, too.

From my experience in the cult, and from knowing a variety of people in it over the years, I'd say victim/perpetrator is pretty black and white, but probably those are useful words to apply as we attempt to clarify who bears responsibility for the darkness perpetrated by the system known as TWI.

But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions.

That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

Edited by penworks
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Actually TLC, ain't mad about anything, I am rather entertained by the gnashing of teeth. Everyone looking for a target, that I so willingly supplied and totally avoiding (except a few) to the #1 posting on this forum thread. My, my, what a fire storm, Katie bar the door and circle the wagons and yet, where's the response to post #1? Show of hands, who read post #1?

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Actually TLC, ain't mad about anything, I am rather entertained by the gnashing of teeth. Everyone looking for a target, that I so willingly supplied and totally avoiding (except a few) to the #1 posting on this forum thread. My, my, what a fire storm, Katie bar the door and circle the wagons and yet, where's the response to post #1? Show of hands, who read post #1?

Show of hands... who cares?

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MRAP, your posts are antagonistic and you are ignoring numerous direct answers to the original thread question, including one directly above your latest post. You appear to be here to attract attention to yourself and not to the topics we are discussing. You are reveling in the responses you are receiving, not because they address the topic, but because they address you.

I question your authenticity.

Knock it off.

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On second thought...

This is old news to most of you, but my time in TWI was blissfully brief and harmless. I'm probably as close to an outsider as an insider could get: attended twigs in 1988 and 1989 in the Bronx. A year of looking into it before attending my first twig (read some of the books, listened to a truckload of tapes). Took the class in Oct-Nov 88, Intermediate in January 89. And by Aug. 89, I was out, along with most of NY state.

I remained affiliated with an offshoot (Finnegan's wake, I call it now) until about 1997. Taught and ran a fellowship fir a few years.

Recognizing some hypocrisy in my personal life, I stepped away as fellowship coordinator and just hung around for a bit. Connected with what was then CES and bought their foundational class and some other stuff. Became a "CES partner" for a year or more. Then stopped. Started attending a mainstream church. And finally chucked it all a few years ago.

I recite this history not in answer to a rudely posed question, but to explain that despite my academic approach to TWI and it's doctrine, I consider myself neither an oppressor within the organization nor a victim of it. I have seen victims offer their testimony here, and I can only try to empathize with the hurt. You manifest it in different ways, and that needs to be recognized. Some people, once victimized, reveal themselves to be broken and in need of love and assistance.

Other people, once victimized, come off as entitled jerks with a pine cone fetish, also in need of love and assistance.

To be continued

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But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions.

That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

Time and time again, this topic of responsibility and one's intentions resurfaces. Another thread,

Social Pressures in Twi delved into experiencing subliminal pressure by twig coordinators

to follow the leader. Yes, it's complicated.

Personally, I do NOT feel any measure of guilt......some embarrassment maybe, but not guilt. I was young

and naïve and, seemingly, this "movement to love God and help others" morphed into a quasi-legalistic

juggernaut of psychological complexities. To me, my initial involvement was to learn more scripture and.

in-between college classes and bar hopping with my roommates, spent some time with these wow ambassadors.

Quite frankly, I thought pfal was a decent class, but didn't put wierwille on some high pedestal.

With incremental steps of involvement, I was slowly closing doors of my former life......college classes,

roommates, and educational goals. Several things happened....answers to prayer, etc.....and my heart was

dedicated to help others. No biggie, just small measures of giving.

Once entitled with authority [big whoop, right? lol].......did that change one's character and heart

to serve or be served? Each person, no matter their title, stood at the crossroads of exhibiting

their character and motive before God.......or before twi's hierarchy of "elders."

To me, THAT is crux of the matter that defines whether there should be any guilt associated in this.

Sure, hindsight is 20/20......and we all would change past twi-involvement if we could, but I believe the

scriptures that the Lord looks on the heart. And, with that, I can live with my past involvement.

I was a victim of a scam. I fell prey to perpetrating a scam.

Was this scam oppressive? Yes, it was.

.

Edited by skyrider
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There is a fine line between accepting responsibility for your actions and assigning guilt to yourself because of them. I don't know what to say to someone like penworks or skyrider. To the very very limited extent to which I was in your shoes, I see my past actions as something I'm ashamed of. "I was only following orders," implementing the rigid rules that I wrongly believed to be reflective of godliness. You're two minutes late to a PFAL class? Sorry. I can't let you in. You'll have to take it next time it's offered (there was no official next time). And no, you don't get your money back, but you don't have to pay again either!

How loving.

The best answers to this thread's question reflect the fact that it's far more complicated than the question allows. Corps grads were indeed victims, victims of a systematic scheme to turn them into oppressors. TWI exploited your hunger and thirst for righteousness, using it to serve TWI's own less noble goals.

It is brutally unfair to absolve you of personal responsibility for what you did, buy it is equally unfair to lay all the blame at your feet, as though those who exploited you were not at all responsible for the results they fully intended.

You're human. You made mistakes, as I did without ever experiencing WOW or Corps.

TBC

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The best answers to this thread's question reflect the fact that it's far more complicated than the question allows. Corps grads were indeed victims, victims of a systematic scheme to turn them into oppressors. TWI exploited your hunger and thirst for righteousness, using it to serve TWI's own less noble goals.

It is brutally unfair to absolve you of personal responsibility for what you did, buy it is equally unfair to lay all the blame at your feet, as though those who exploited you were not at all responsible for the results they fully intended.

You're human. You made mistakes, as I did without ever experiencing WOW or Corps.

TBC

Yes....."it's far more complicated than the question allows."

The opening premise of this thread details corps as victims/oppressors......

but, in my opinion, falls far short of detailing "the epitome of twi's oppression"

in your two choices [opening post].

Some Examples:

1) I've seen obnoxious twig coordinators, advanced class grads, staffers.....who were NOT corps.

2) Some interim corps got tired or disgusted with twi leadership and left to pursue other things.

3) After corps graduation, a percentage of corps grads EXITED TWI.....never to return.

4) Twi had built a system of "follow the leader to please God" at every level.

5) In October 2000, I ran across an advanced class grad who was a loyal, obnoxious, sell-out

to Rosalie's "kinder/gentler" twi......and he was "standing for God" because corps were quitting.

At every level.....the scam was perpetuated.

At every level.....the scam was oppressive.

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To be fair, the opening post also asked whether the question was framed properly and openly invited responses that re-framed the question.

From the original post: Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point to we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it? Or is that the wrong question to ask? Am I using the wrong words? Can you phrase it better?

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I know, as a child even, I was shunned or attacked or held at a certain distance at times for being what I am: FROM A CULT.

I know outsiders do not care about your history or if you were victimized. They don't care VPW and others had agendas. They don't care about what choices you did or didn't make.

You're from a cult. That means you're a yucky person. Don't allow your cult-nonsense on them.

If the view or goal is to fix problems, stop cycles, understand and end the nonsense . . . maybe enabler, facilitator, perpetrator is the best view?

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From the original post: Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point do we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it? Or is that the wrong question to ask? Am I using the wrong words? Can you phrase it better?

Well, perhaps I'll risk mentioning that from a particular perspective, all (mankind) are a mark or a victim, and the point where we start to see any man or woman as the enabler, facilitator or perpetrator of it is when its analyzed from a fleshly point of view. So, in a certain sense, it might be fair to say that even vpw was the victim of a spiritual abuser. And likewise, it might be just as fair to say that all of us were (and still are) enablers, facilitators or perpetrators of some number of spiritual abusive things if (or whenever) we fail to walk in the spirit.

So yes, it's a complicated question, as no one escapes the certain (spiritual) dichotomy of it. But let's not forget that the struggle that we faced (and continue to face) is not merely one of flesh and blood. Just as none of us were "all good," none of us were "all bad" in what we did or how we lived. So, rather than looking at individual lives as either victims or perpetrators, perhaps it is easier (or more sensible) to stick with analyzing which specific actions or doctrines were wrong or abusive.

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. . .So, rather than looking at individual lives as either victims or perpetrators, perhaps it is easier (or more sensible) to stick with analyzing which specific actions or doctrines were wrong or abusive.

This is a great idea.

The doctrines, and actions and practice following those doctrines though, they have to be seen via the intent, frame of mind, POV, of the user?

Knowing VPW intended harm and viewed material for his own self-centered purposes makes the doctrines and practices less muddy in hindsight. View the doctrines as a perpetrator would view them and you will find answers about why they were even taught.

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