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Bolshevik

The three C's of Information

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Rosalie Fox Rivenbark, to my knowledge, President of The Way International. AKA, Her Holy Q-Tip.

One time maybe ten years ago or more, during the noon meal, Rosie spoke at the lectern. Her topic was written, and she read her thoughts to us all.

I remember it because she spoke about a subject, a philosophical point I won't go in to. I remember looking for that topic in The Word. We were there to learn and do The Word, The President spoke about a topic, so I went to study and understand it for myself. To me, that was a logical, sensible, thing to do.

I never found that topic in The Word. I asked around a little, nobody else cared, I had to drop it. I probably would have asked Rosie herself, but that never happened, for one reason or another.

Recently, I heard the topic again. It didn't come from The Word. It came from Aristotle, I believe. I will never really know Rosie's source, she never told me.

My thoughts were, upon hearing this topic again, "OH . . . THAT'S where Rosie got this idea . . . so why didn't she just say that? It would have made things so much easier . . . oh . . . crap . . . . that F'king B'ch."

I thought about the time and energy I wasted searching for something that wasn't there. I thought about the recent Why Plagiarism Matters? and Wierwilleism's threads on GSC.

I think part of the point of those threads is that Wierwille wanted all sources of information to go through him. He would mention his sources later, but not until his followers identified that information with the name Wierwille and not someone else.

I will probably always think of Rosie when a certain topic, or word, is mentioned, because not only did I hear it from her first, but I put effort into trying to understand what SHE was talking about. A wasted endeavor, but an unintended lesson learned years later.

Victor Paul Wierwille was many folks' "Father in The Word" because he made sure information went through him. He made Himself the source. A lot of people associate a lot of information with Victor Paul Wierwille. I think a lot of those people guard the image of Victor Paul Wierwille because they associate so much of their thinking process with him. I imagine removing him from that pedestal comes at a great mental cost to those folks. That process is likely painful, if they choose to follow through with that.

Also, Rosie is a f'ching b'th. The internet needs to know.

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That's just what bullies do. They take credit for other peoples' accomplishments. Sometimes it's blatant, sometimes it's subliminal. People who haven't come to the realization you eventually came to might go to the grave thinking that topic originated with Rivenbark or, worse, that she was the recipient of divine inspiration.. Your effort to understand it was not at all wasted. It served to teach you a much more important lesson about yourself and about the importance of validating sources.

You learned from it. Those whose opinions remain the same, apparently, did not. Who's the winner?

Edited by waysider
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Wierwille invented the hook shot. :biglaugh:/>

"So there I was was, getting nowhere with my basketball career, while I watched far less talented players advance their careers by leaps and bounds. I said "God, give me something that will make me stand out and I promise to lead others to the greatness of The Hoop. Just like that, the ball jumped out of my hands and spun in a most unconventional manner. Through the hoop it went, as snow began to fill the arena. And that, keeds, is how the hook shot came to be."

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. . . thinking that topic originated with Rivenbark or, worse, that she was the recipient of divine inspiration.. Your effort to understand it was not at all wasted. . . .

Yes . . . there's potential for "fan fiction" of VPW's view of The Bible and life. Rivenbark provided a topic. Her position as President implied that the topic was important to note. In the effort to understand it, my source was The Word, which is what The Way International claims to be about. There's a temptation there to force the two, the topic and The Word, together. I believe I was conditioned to do that by having to listen to LCM every week for all of my teenage years.

Knowing the true source, helps prevent all sorts of horsecrap at it's source. :biglaugh:

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Phychological profiles of presidents' of twit all share a common underlying pathology: delusional paranoid narcissism. Birds of a feather........

I understand much more fully now, the kind of spiritual and psychoemotional abuse young people like you were being forced to accept by your own parents from their chosen religious "leaders". What terrorism against the human soul. I guess you were "mini-corpse" some where along the line, and then your folks must have been on staff at HQ or some place. The thing I am most grateful for about leaving twit is that my oldest child was only seven at the time, and the youngest was two. We refused to send them to childcare because of the wooden spoon discipline applied by non-parents to the children of others. NOPE! Not our's. That freedom to become what their own DNA and nurture allows them, and not be forced to live and love the mean-spirited, lifestyle of da mogs vicariously for THEM and not YOUR own uniqueness.

My kids grew up in a normal middle class neighborhood, with a diverse population of other kids in a great public school system in a progressive community. They were NOT forced to go to any church. They were not coerced into fundamentalist, fascist "Christian" Nationalism because they were mini-corpse, or forced to attend boring ill-tempered community meals, hitler youth "childrens' fellowship" indoctrination sessions almost daily, isolation from all the "unbelieving" kids in the area, programmed xenophobia to anything contrary to the mogs' revelation and guidance, embarrassment and shame because of their parents' outdated and spurious religious beliefs and practices, eventually becoming anxiety ridden and clinically depressed because of the imprisonment they feel drowned in. They even go out of their way to understand and really believe what they're "supposed to" only to slam into the reality that it is white, Aryan, fascist ideology along with Nietschean Nazi theology/philosophy that is causing the maddening cognitive dissonance in your head. Then, you start to worry that it's probably debbil spurt possession, or at the very least, "influence"! You're now in an untenable state of being with no escape. Does that somehow come close to describing your experience Bolshevik? Or, am I totally off base? It just seems you sharing that really gave me insight into all your posts previous, some of which I found difficult to fully understand, but now seem to understand much more fully.

Thanks for your posts, and please tell me if I'm totally off the mark in what I said above. Thanks Bolshevik, and..........peace.

Edited by DontWorryBeHappy
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(off topic)

. . . Does that somehow come close to describing your experience Bolshevik? . . .

In essence, I think so.

My folks were not corps. They are obedient lifers. They did often preach that "if it's good for the corps it's good for their kids". I don't know where that idea came from. To please your parents meant to do anything Way-related. The wooden spoon is symbolic of that unconcerned attitude, or whatever it is.

At one point I spoke with leadership about going corps. I decided I wanted to go to school, first. My ex-wife was also raised by VPW-worshippers.

When my first son was born, it finally dawned on me The Way was the source of a lot of problems, and a threat to my children's well-being.

Way-related arguments and schisms among family began before I was born.

A person's choice to be involved with The Way affects everyone.

Edited to add: I enjoy reading your posts, DWBH.

Edited by Bolshevik

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I've never thought much about how mini-Corps kids were affected in their thinking patterns. I know how my own barriers were broken down; but at least I had sound principles to (re)build on post Waybrain. But if you never had those boundaries before - if you were raised in TWI with TWI morals, values and boundaries - how hard that must be to adjust to out-of-Way thinking.

Hats off to you Bolshevik, and D@n@ F0rt, and other young people of your ilk.

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That's just what bullies do. They take credit for other peoples' accomplishments. Sometimes it's blatant, sometimes it's subliminal.

. . .

I'm trying to understand the subliminal part better. I would think it starts there. I don't think people immediately fall for outrageous ideas like "inventor of the hook shot", but are prepared to do so in small steps.

In the example with Rosie there were previously built habits and assumptions, like where to look, which I assumed was The Word. (The Word, The Word, Nothing but The Word.) Rosie becomes the "source" and is able to deny taking credit. I noticed similar items in the STS, after LCM was disposed of, where non-Word references were mentioned. Maybe to give TWI credibility as knowledgeable, or keep Wayfers thinking they don't need to look outside The Way for information.

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I'm trying to understand the subliminal part better. I would think it starts there. I don't think people immediately fall for outrageous ideas like "inventor of the hook shot", but are prepared to do so in small steps.

The Game of Incrementalism

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I've never thought much about how mini-Corps kids were affected in their thinking patterns. I know how my own barriers were broken down; but at least I had sound principles to (re)build on post Waybrain. But if you never had those boundaries before - if you were raised in TWI with TWI morals, values and boundaries - how hard that must be to adjust to out-of-Way thinking.

This. The hardest part of getting out is having to re-evaluate EVERYTHING you touch, interact with, and think. I find bits of baggage in every decision I made the first year out. Now, 2+ years out, it still isn't gone. Relationships, communication, morality, finances, etc. There's a few healthy quirks, but most had to be scrapped. I felt like and angsty teen all over as I rewrote my life.

Subliminal bullies.

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This. The hardest part of getting out is having to re-evaluate EVERYTHING you touch, interact with, and think. I find bits of baggage in every decision I made the first year out. Now, 2+ years out, it still isn't gone. Relationships, communication, morality, finances, etc. There's a few healthy quirks, but most had to be scrapped. I felt like and angsty teen all over as I rewrote my life.

Subliminal bullies.

WELCOME CD!

You are SOOOOOOOOOO right on the mark with that statement. Re-evaluate everything. It can be quite frustrating. And it can be depressing if you think in terms of the years you lost to twi.

BUT... life looking forward is rich and full of opportunity to share your experiences in order to help others. Yet, I fear I understate this side of things.

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WELCOME CD!

You are SOOOOOOOOOO right on the mark with that statement. Re-evaluate everything. It can be quite frustrating. And it can be depressing if you think in terms of the years you lost to twi.

BUT... life looking forward is rich and full of opportunity to share your experiences in order to help others. Yet, I fear I understate this side of things.

Thanks Rocky. I elaborated similar thoughts here. Life is better in color.

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I've never thought much about how mini-Corps kids were affected in their thinking patterns. I know how my own barriers were broken down; but at least I had sound principles to (re)build on post Waybrain. But if you never had those boundaries before - if you were raised in TWI with TWI morals, values and boundaries - how hard that must be to adjust to out-of-Way thinking.

Hats off to you Bolshevik, and D@n@ F0rt, and other young people of your ilk.

This. The hardest part of getting out is having to re-evaluate EVERYTHING you touch, interact with, and think. I find bits of baggage in every decision I made the first year out. Now, 2+ years out, it still isn't gone. Relationships, communication, morality, finances, etc. There's a few healthy quirks, but most had to be scrapped. I felt like and angsty teen all over as I rewrote my life.

Subliminal bullies.

Collateral D, I never thought of how challenging that must have been for you – to be in TWI from the get-go. Having never been in the "driver's seat" so to speak, it would be a very daunting task to strike out on your own.

The best I can do to relate to that is thinking about going on family vacations as a kid. Mom and dad did all the planning and prep. Dad did all the driving. I'd sit in the back with older brother and sister. If you interviewed me after we arrived at our vacation spot and asked me about the trip – the only things I could tell you would be the toys and games I played with, comic books I looked at, what I drew on my etch-a-sketch, how many times I got car sick, and how many good restaurants (the ones that had hot dogs) we stopped at. I would not be able to tell you how we got there.

We (now my wife and kids) have gone on numerous vacations – and as an adult I know of course how we're getting to our destination; funny thing though – if it's a road trip and it's not my turn to drive – I might be enjoying the scenery, napping…or playing with toys, looking at comics…so I may not be sure of how we navigated that leg of the trip.

Anyway – my point is folks that got into TWI on their own may have the advantage of dusting off old road maps and finding their trusty old compass when they decide to get off the crazy detour and resume life's journey.

To Collateral D and all the other way kids out there – I sincerely wish you a safe and prosperous journey wherever you may travel in life.

== == == ==

And in reference to the title of this thread I offer an antithesis for TWI lurkers: the three Vs of information are verify, verify, verify…may your thoughts and questions be like a hot knife through butter to prove what is true, accurate, and justified…whether here at Grease Spot or at TWI.

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. . .

The best I can do to relate to that is thinking about going on family vacations as a kid. Mom and dad did all the planning and prep. Dad did all the driving. I'd sit in the back with older brother and sister. If you interviewed me after we arrived at our vacation spot and asked me about the trip – the only things I could tell you would be the toys and games I played with, comic books I looked at, what I drew on my etch-a-sketch, how many times I got car sick, and how many good restaurants (the ones that had hot dogs) we stopped at. I would not be able to tell you how we got there.

We (now my wife and kids) have gone on numerous vacations – and as an adult I know of course how we're getting to our destination; funny thing though – if it's a road trip and it's not my turn to drive – I might be enjoying the scenery, napping…or playing with toys, looking at comics…so I may not be sure of how we navigated that leg of the trip.

. . .

Hi T-Bone,

This is a rather passive analogy. Don't know if you were around for the 90's. If Mom and Dad took a wrong turn, that could have been the children's unbelief. LCM wasn't going to allow children to run the ministry. After all, that was our plan from the get-go.

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Hi T-Bone,

This is a rather passive analogy. Don't know if you were around for the 90's. If Mom and Dad took a wrong turn, that could have been the children's unbelief. LCM wasn't going to allow children to run the ministry. After all, that was our plan from the get-go.

that's a GREAT analogy Bolshevik !

the family and i left in '86....

and you don't know how many times Tonto and i have apologized to the kids for taking a wrong turn.....geez, a detour lasting some 12 years....come to think of it - i remember seeing a road sign at the turn off "Detour to Crazy Town"...hmmmm then there was "speed limit: 90 mph the first 12 sessions; after that resume turtle speed to end of road"....when i finally got to the end of the road there was another a barricade with a sign posted "Beyond here be dragons" - it took a little gumption but throwing the family vehicle into 4 wheel drive we did a little off-roading to get out of there.

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I kept seeing a sign that said "Get Out Now!". I just ignored it, though, because I thought it said "Get Out House!" and, well, I've always had access to a functioning bathroom so I thought it was meant for someone else.

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Hi T-Bone,

This is a rather passive analogy. Don't know if you were around for the 90's. If Mom and Dad took a wrong turn, that could have been the children's unbelief. LCM wasn't going to allow children to run the ministry. After all, that was our plan from the get-go.

Truth. Although my parents weren't quite at that level, there was this paranoia and double-triple checking everything. Then, if (or when) something went wrong, the fire that descended was past down until the lowest level broke down and felt terrible. It fell on the weakest level (branch, fellowship, coordinator, assistant, etc. ) one that wasn't "spiritually sharp". MacCarthy levels of making sure you could pass it on to someone else. You did everything you could. When all of that failed, just blame the spiritual of thought-patterns that could not be proven. Rough.

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Really, I had no idea of how some kids growing up in TWI had it!  Some of the posters at GSC have 

written what it was like growing up in TWI.  I had a very, very harsh childhood myself, but I have learned here at the Spot stunned me!!  Some kids around every few years, some kids stated that everyone was allowed to use a wooden spoon on them.  Some kids left, but their parents stayed.  I'm sure that caused quite a few heartbreaks for both parties.  I could go on and on, but I know that I had no idea of what some of The Way kids went through.  TGS has been a real eye opener for me; a lot of it has been ugly.  I think for decades, I and other people on the field were lied to over, and over again.  I know if I had known about all the sheet that went down behind the scenes, I would have left, much sooner. That might be the reason why a lot of things concerning TWI were glossed over; if people had known 

what went on, they would have left sooner, and taken their money with them.  God, even with Godly people, at times it really is about the money.

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On 29/03/2016 at 4:01 PM, T-Bone said:

that's a GREAT analogy Bolshevik !

the family and i left in '86....

and you don't know how many times Tonto and i have apologized to the kids for taking a wrong turn.....geez, a detour lasting some 12 years....come to think of it - i remember seeing a road sign at the turn off "Detour to Crazy Town"...hmmmm then there was "speed limit: 90 mph the first 12 sessions; after that resume turtle speed to end of road"....when i finally got to the end of the road there was another a barricade with a sign posted "Beyond here be dragons" - it took a little gumption but throwing the family vehicle into 4 wheel drive we did a little off-roading to get out of there.

You're so funny, T-Bone :wave:

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Hi Twinky !!!!!! :wave:

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On 3/6/2016 at 11:02 AM, Bolshevik said:

Rosalie Fox Rivenbark, to my knowledge, President of The Way International. AKA, Her Holy Q-Tip.

One time maybe ten years ago or more, during the noon meal, Rosie spoke at the lectern. Her topic was written, and she read her thoughts to us all.

I remember it because she spoke about a subject, a philosophical point I won't go in to. I remember looking for that topic in The Word. We were there to learn and do The Word, The President spoke about a topic, so I went to study and understand it for myself. To me, that was a logical, sensible, thing to do.

I never found that topic in The Word. I asked around a little, nobody else cared, I had to drop it. I probably would have asked Rosie herself, but that never happened, for one reason or another.

Recently, I heard the topic again. It didn't come from The Word. It came from Aristotle, I believe. I will never really know Rosie's source, she never told me.

My thoughts were, upon hearing this topic again, "OH . . . THAT'S where Rosie got this idea . . . so why didn't she just say that? It would have made things so much easier . . . oh . . . crap . . . . that F'king B'ch."

I thought about the time and energy I wasted searching for something that wasn't there. I thought about the recent Why Plagiarism Matters? and Wierwilleism's threads on GSC.

I think part of the point of those threads is that Wierwille wanted all sources of information to go through him. He would mention his sources later, but not until his followers identified that information with the name Wierwille and not someone else.

I will probably always think of Rosie when a certain topic, or word, is mentioned, because not only did I hear it from her first, but I put effort into trying to understand what SHE was talking about. A wasted endeavor, but an unintended lesson learned years later.

Victor Paul Wierwille was many folks' "Father in The Word" because he made sure information went through him. He made Himself the source. A lot of people associate a lot of information with Victor Paul Wierwille. I think a lot of those people guard the image of Victor Paul Wierwille because they associate so much of their thinking process with him. I imagine removing him from that pedestal comes at a great mental cost to those folks. That process is likely painful, if they choose to follow through with that.

Also, Rosie is a f'ching b'th. The internet needs to know.

Hey Bol, as usual, it is good to read one of your posts. I have never met Rosie, nor have I ever heard her teach.  However, almost always when someone mentions, Rosie, they usually mention that she is a B---h.  Some people have good things to say about VPW, LCM, Chris G, and even Donna.  However, in all the years, I have been reading the GSC, I don't think I have read one nice thing said about Rosie, ever.  I often wonder how someone like that makes it to the top of Way World.  I have never run a company, or business.  However, if I had, I think it would be very important for me to hire honest people who can deal with others in a professional manner.   Especially if I was running a Christian organization; I would want people on the top tier to lead by example. Simply from reading the GSC, I get the impression that Rosie is dishonest, and hard to work for.  She seems to me to be an unhappy person, who enjoys making those around her miserable.  Again, these are my opinions based on my readings from the GSC about her.  If she didn't have the TWI, what would she do with herself??

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On 3/6/2016 at 1:30 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Phychological profiles of presidents' of twit all share a common underlying pathology: delusional paranoid narcissism. Birds of a feather........

I understand much more fully now, the kind of spiritual and psychoemotional abuse young people like you were being forced to accept by your own parents from their chosen religious "leaders". What terrorism against the human soul. I guess you were "mini-corpse" some where along the line, and then your folks must have been on staff at HQ or some place. The thing I am most grateful for about leaving twit is that my oldest child was only seven at the time, and the youngest was two. We refused to send them to childcare because of the wooden spoon discipline applied by non-parents to the children of others. NOPE! Not our's. That freedom to become what their own DNA and nurture allows them, and not be forced to live and love the mean-spirited, lifestyle of da mogs vicariously for THEM and not YOUR own uniqueness.

My kids grew up in a normal middle class neighborhood, with a diverse population of other kids in a great public school system in a progressive community. They were NOT forced to go to any church. They were not coerced into fundamentalist, fascist "Christian" Nationalism because they were mini-corpse, or forced to attend boring ill-tempered community meals, hitler youth "childrens' fellowship" indoctrination sessions almost daily, isolation from all the "unbelieving" kids in the area, programmed xenophobia to anything contrary to the mogs' revelation and guidance, embarrassment and shame because of their parents' outdated and spurious religious beliefs and practices, eventually becoming anxiety ridden and clinically depressed because of the imprisonment they feel drowned in. They even go out of their way to understand and really believe what they're "supposed to" only to slam into the reality that it is white, Aryan, fascist ideology along with Nietschean Nazi theology/philosophy that is causing the maddening cognitive dissonance in your head. Then, you start to worry that it's probably debbil spurt possession, or at the very least, "influence"! You're now in an untenable state of being with no escape. Does that somehow come close to describing your experience Bolshevik? Or, am I totally off base? It just seems you sharing that really gave me insight into all your posts previous, some of which I found difficult to fully understand, but now seem to understand much more fully.

Thanks for your posts, and please tell me if I'm totally off the mark in what I said above. Thanks Bolshevik, and..........peace.

DWBH, again thanks for another great post.  For years, and years, I thought kids growing up in Way World had an easy life. Then I started reading here at the 'Spot, how badly so many of them were treated by adults in Way World.  God, so many of them were neglected by their parents, because the parents were always working for TWI.   One woman in the FC, was told not to give her son medication for his ADD.  Another woman said that her parents were told to abandon her brother because he had problems.  Hell, I probably would of had problems if I had grown up in Way World.  I was shocked by the number of kids were were abused.  And then, so many of them were left without adult supervision for long periods of time; so I was but I lived on a farm and, and worked a lot.  God, how could I have been so wrong about so many kids at Way World.

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