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MRAP

It's the words

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I recently listned to a political talk show, one that I often dial into. The narrator mixed it up, he refused to say who made the quote and then asked the listening audiance if they agreed or disagreed with the statements. I was totally astounded by the folks who called into the show, they were as well when later in the "show" he revealed who said what and how the callers agreed with folks they opposed.

That's how I see this forum. Amazing, the instant attacks, not based on what has been said by the off shoots but on who said it. The attacks don't address the subject matter nearly as much as the attacks on the person who said it.

When I read that, I immediately see the poster came with an inherent bias and after that, it's hard to accept the critisism.

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To a degree, you do have to give weight to the speaker as well as what is spoken. That's how credibility works. It's why VPW's credibility on the holy spirit field (specifically devil spirits) went out the window when it was revealed that he himself died of cancer which, in the Advanced Class, he said was caused by devil possession.

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To a degree, you do have to give weight to the speaker as well as what is spoken. That's how credibility works. It's why VPW's credibility on the holy spirit field (specifically devil spirits) went out the window when it was revealed that he himself died of cancer which, in the Advanced Class, he said was caused by devil possession.

I understand your point waysider but I found it refressing just to take the concepts, statements and words at face value without a prior bias.

So much of what vpw taught was plagerized and stolen from good researchists, Biblical scholars, etc. Knowing that, I can not throw things out just cause I heard vpw teach it or off shoots teach it. I gotta do more homework. If it was vpw originated, then I will take into account the speaker but it is very difficult to know what, if any Biblical stuff was originated by him or his research folks. I came to understand that vpw did not always want to incorporate what some of his research staff discovered, isn't that why so many of them left twi?

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Of course, just taking isolated quotes is no guarantee that they are

FAIRLY represented. Cutting a quote from its context can be used to make

it say the opposite of what it was meant to say.

"There is no God" from "The fool says in his heart,'There is no God.'"

It's certainly common enough in politics, even though it's dishonest.

As for what vpw stole, I have no proof anything he stole was necessarily

sound just because he felt it was worth stealing. He plagiarized the Word-Faith

movement, with their "believe and deflect all bad events in your life" stuff-

and that whole movement's based on a Christian voodoo. vpw claimed that

"all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king" when Israel was a kingdom-

but that was never true except in his delusions. vpw often lifted things he

didn't even understand- which is why he sometimes made some remarkable mistakes

or contradicted himself. ("'All' is always either 'all without exception'

or 'all without distinction." "Now, was this 'all' 'all without exception', or

'all with a distinction'?") Just ASSUMING vpw's sources were sound and

relatively error-free is a bad bet.

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vpw often lifted things he

didn't even understand- which is why he sometimes made some remarkable mistakes

or contradicted himself. ("'All' is always either 'all without exception'

or 'all without distinction." "Now, was this 'all' 'all without exception', or

'all with a distinction'?") Just ASSUMING vpw's sources were sound and

relatively error-free is a bad bet.

To be fair, here, VP originally used Bullinger's "all without exception" and "all without distinction" verbatim. The problem is that "all without distinction" was within a particular class (or subset), and so, there is an inherent distinction between that subset and "everyone" or "everything." In later years, TWI used "all with distinction" for that reason.

George

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To be fair, here, VP originally used Bullinger's "all without exception" and "all without distinction" verbatim. The problem is that "all without distinction" was within a particular class (or subset), and so, there is an inherent distinction between that subset and "everyone" or "everything." In later years, TWI used "all with distinction" for that reason.

George

That's why I said he "lifted things he didn't understand."

When he taught it in pfal, he definitely didn't understand it,

because he taught the opposite later.

Naturally, this makes for an obvious error, since it can't be both true

as one thing and completely true as its opposite at the same time.

Not a problem for the sensible student-but for those who think that vpw

was close to Jesus in understanding, or getting it direct from

God Almighty, this is a problem and requires denial or enough fog to

hide it completely.

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MRAP, I couldn't have said it better than you did in your post, which perfectly described my first experience when I first signed on last week, and was within a few days kicked off the site for a day for vigorously defending myself against personal attacks disguised as comments/questions.

Even after the block was lifted, and I came back, the same thing happened again (attacks), until I took some action, and then the attacks seem to subsided.

Or perhaps they subsided because I made one very strong post "The Way of The Way".  Either way, the attacks have subsided, but if they come back, I will defend myself, although perhaps in way that does not feed the attacker's starving egos, which like feeding undomesticated animals, only brings them back again and again to see what is available for them to gorge themselves on, with little cost to themselves, but at great costs to others.

MRAP wrote:

"That's how I see this forum. Amazing, the instant attacks, not based on what has been said......*.....but on who said it. The attacks don't address the subject matter nearly as much as the attacks on the person who said it."

* "...the off shoots..." deleted as not germane to my point, with apologies to MRAP 

Edited by GoldStar

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On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:27 AM, GoldStar said:

perhaps in way that does not feed the attacker's starving egos, which like feeding undomesticated animals, only brings them back again and again to see what is available for them to gorge themselves on, with little cost to themselves, but at great costs to others.

not funny, actually (because it's all too close to the truth)... but dang... it did make me laugh.
(ego's lined up at the trough, waiting for more slop to come spilling out...)

you get a GoldStar for painting a picture with words!

 

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25 minutes ago, TLC said:

you get a GoldStar for painting a picture with words!

Thank you for the kudos TLC, glad I finally made someone laugh!

Most of the rest are not laughing, but crying... :(

The loud cries of wild hyenas as they wait for the slop trough to be filled in preparation of the next gorge...

(wait guys, previous comment made tongue-in-cheek, no offense intended, please don't be offended, just joking, really, honest)

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TWI hasn't changed since the founder.  The new leader just keeps up the status quo and then some.  It's a shame - I know several people still heavily involved and completely sold out to them, but they are such good people.  Just naive, to the point that they aren't even willing to consider that they are in the wrong place.

Fortunately, I am not sold out to any organization and, while I still attend fellowship sometimes, I typically don't participate in their activities, unless it sounds really interesting.  I guess I wasn't actually following anyone there, I was just learning, and have learned enough to know my relationship is with God, not a particular minister or teacher.  That's why I can listen to teachings at a Way fellowship, or by Joel Osteen on TV, or by a R&R person on the web, or from my friend here in the area.

I have had issues with some fellowship and branch coordinators, but when they taught the truth I was still able to listen and look at the verses to see if it lined up with the Word.  If we don't give importance to who is talking, but only to what they are saying, then we will be able to discern truth from error.  But to automatically assume someone is right or wrong based solely on who they are is an error in judgement bordering on foolishness.

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On 3/10/2018 at 10:00 AM, Taxidev said:

TWI hasn't changed since the founder.  The new leader just keeps up the status quo and then some.  It's a shame - I know several people still heavily involved and completely sold out to them, but they are such good people.  Just naive, to the point that they aren't even willing to consider that they are in the wrong place.

Fortunately, I am not sold out to any organization and, while I still attend fellowship sometimes, I typically don't participate in their activities, unless it sounds really interesting.  I guess I wasn't actually following anyone there, I was just learning, and have learned enough to know my relationship is with God, not a particular minister or teacher.  That's why I can listen to teachings at a Way fellowship, or by Joel Osteen on TV, or by a R&R person on the web, or from my friend here in the area.

I have had issues with some fellowship and branch coordinators, but when they taught the truth I was still able to listen and look at the verses to see if it lined up with the Word.  If we don't give importance to who is talking, but only to what they are saying, then we will be able to discern truth from error.  But to automatically assume someone is right or wrong based solely on who they are is an error in judgement bordering on foolishness.

Hey Taxidev,

Thanks for sharing.  Your post kind of brought up a rhetorical question to me internally.  "Can truth exist in an enclosed vacuum outside of external influence?"  The Way is an enclosed system that functions top-down originating from one person.  (e.g.  Rupp sharing "I'm not a yes man.  I'm a yes ma'am").    Other trained up Pharisees will continue on in the same fashion - scriptures guarantee it.   

So as an enclosed system, how is the Way any different than the surrounding Amish in the local community around the Indiana campus they bought from the Catholics ?  The campus was a  "Sisters of the Healing Waters"  retreat or something previously.    Like going down the road and seeing a horse drawn buggy and a carriage, perhaps the simpler non-thinking life is more appealing to some.  All of this modern stuff is too much, too overwhelming.  Let's seperate to simplify, and enclose ourselves.  Instead of an elected leader, one will assume power by coup.  Then rule like a dictator.   Wow.  Sounds like a novel I read in high school called "Lord of the Flies".  That is what selfish humans revert to by course and by "old man" nature.

Now RFR will deny this enclosed system up and down as one of her besties is one attorney named Columbo who kept her lilly white behind off the witness stand through most of the lawsuits.  She listens to him more than scripture, hence her dogged rejection of any modifications of the debt policy.  Is that an enclosed system?  Well, you kind of get an essence of that in Melody Carter's long diatribe - RFR appoints and removes BOD members exclusively.  Legally they have an odd number for voting, but basically RFR dominates and has for years - ref Rupp quote.  JY de Lisle is a more normal family man who has been raised under her tutelage longer than any other high level leadership member.  Little to no field experience, so his entire reality was crafted at the little white cult city of Utopia in po-dunc Ohio surrounded by a community locally that hates them.   As scriptures predict, the next generation of Pharisee will be 3x as bad.
 

Joel Olsteen is a bit cheesy but he's cool in some ways.  In others he is all "prosperity gospel", like so many in our generation.  Those are of the sort Jesus would probably be seen kicking over their moneychanger tables outside the temple if he was around.  But part of the body of Christ and endeavoring to teach and build.

Sometimes local Klingons to the shipwreck can be quite friendly.  And teach scriptures.  It's all good.  I am of the persuasion more according to that small story "Acres of Diamonds".  I believe God will open up to the seeking Christian great avenues for connecting to the body of Christ within the direct area they live.   And actually one good way to see things clearly is to follow the money.   Or actually in some cases look for the ego, as I think there are a fair number of shipwreck leaders that have their own money - that is no reason to pay them heed.

 The body of Christ is much much greater than our limited view in the Way.  The body of Christ is not an enclosed system with power residing with any one human being living on earth.

We don't have to cling to shipwreck pieces of wood and be afraid of drowning waiting for someone to come by and rescue us.   We are strong.  We are swimmers.  

 

 

Edited by chockfull
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2 hours ago, chockfull said:

"Can truth exist in an enclosed vacuum outside of external influence?"

chockfull,

This is an insightful question, and I believe at the root of the issues brought up by the R&R folks.  RFR so refuses to be meek to even consider someone else might be right and she is wrong, that it has caused tremendous schism within the ranks.  Her reaction?  Discard them, and anyone else who agrees with them.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

The body of Christ is much much greater than our limited view in the Way.

Absolutely.  I was just recently having a discussion about this with a former wayer, and I brought up the point that it isn't us VS them, it is us AND them.  As demonstrated in the bible, the body of Christ was all over the known world, and no one was making demands of them, trying to control everything they did.  Knowledgeable believers were just going out and teaching them the Truth!

And when Paul noticed a discrepancy, he went back to Jerusalem and had a big meeting with them to resolve it.  All those in Jerusalem gladly looked at scripture, gladly shared perspectives, gladly listened to each other, and gladly found the answer together.

That is the household working together, to do what the true head, Jesus Christ, wants.  Not some fake head with a title.

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Interesting topic, mrap. Not new but I'll give you my 'pinion. 

For the sake of this discussion I'm only including 2nd generation Off shoots, started by those directly taught by Dr. Wierwille. I'm not familiar with 3rd and further out although I'd say that for better or worse they seem to digress so far from his direct influence that it's no longer a viable comparison. There's a lot of that in the earlier generations too though, like John Lynn, who has deviated so far from the basics of PFAL that he's not a reasonable comparison (despite the fact he assures his followers that Dr. Wierwille would be "pleased" by his work, nothing would be further from the truth I'm sure)...so in reality he's a perfect example of the need to be cautious since he's a textbook example of someone directly taught by Dr. Wierwille who's reinvented both history and teaching to equal a new thing. I might say he's either a pathological liar or extremely mentally damaged. Perhaps he's just a well meaning do-gooder. Whatever the case a person would be advised to evaluate him as a person and by his actions when considering if what he says is true or not and even more importantly to know how to accept him as a member of the Church - I for one would give him all the love and forgiveness accorded me by God through Christ, but would never put him in the position of being a Teacher. It would be unfair to his well being and potentially others. But this isn't about him specifically although he comes to mind because he's currently recovering from illness and had had so many ups and downs and a range of experiences in his lifetime. 

To a great degree you have to consider the character and conduct of an individual when you evaluate their work. Some Christians over emphasize that, others under. I'd contend that behaviors and conduct and the resulting characterization of the individual drawn by their actions is important and should be factored in at this front end when considering whatever it is a person does or says. 

Mathew 7: 15-20 - Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Deut. 18:22 - When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Matthew infers intent - outwardly they act like sheep but their intentions are those of ferocious wolves. How do I find that out? By their actions. If we are comparing a fruit bearing tree then Jesus is saying that a bad tree won't yield good fruit. Ultimately they'll be cut down and removed. So he wants us to look at the tree, the person, and see what fruit it bears, what are the products of what it does, what it brings forth? Then judge by that - which you can do because the judgment is really already made and you only have to recognized it. 

Today Christian thinking accepts our lives of growth as manifestations of God's grace and mercy, without which we'd be condemned. So we see each other do good things, bad things, and we are compelled to forgive as we have been forgiven, and deal with grace and forgiveness with others. How much? Jesus said - a lot. 70 X 7. As many times as it takes. 


Does that then mean that when a person, a brother or sister in Christ teaches in God's name in error or in pride or for self serving reasons, that I am to forgive and accept them? The New Testament covers that too - all can be forgiven but not all are to be given freedom and access within the Church to speak for and on behalf of God. 

Deuteronomy speaks to that, the prophet who does not speak for God. The NT says to speak directly to each other, confront, include others, don't accept second hand information or rumors, don't promote gossip, require witnesses, multiple witnesses and proofs - why? To waste time? Be nice? No. To be sure you're right and that both they and those affected have the best opportunity to understand what's going on and how to correct it. 

Paul encouraged Timothy to watch out for Alexander the coppersmith because he did Paul "much harm". Paul also warned about those who would try to sneak in and defraud the church. Why, so they could defraud them? No, so they could collectively avoid being harmed. 

Paul also instructed Timothy what to look for in church leaders, the elders, deacons, over seers, "servants" of the Lord of God's people....he said look for honest people, men who are spoken well of, who have good reputations, who care for their families, work care for the needs of the church, who have some maturity in the faith. Basically he wants honest, reasonable people who are faithful to the church and who don't lie, cheat, steal or have ongoing problems with things like that. 

It's impossible to evaluate the teaching without evaluating the teachers. A person may be teaching something completely correct, biblically accurate, but not be living by the biblical teachings themselves. Worse yet, they can be lying about it, creating chaos in the church over it, hurting others without concern if they disagree with them and worse yet stuck, expecting to have their words honored over their actions - which is counter-Christianity. That's anti-Christian, it's the opposite of what Christ did or taught or what anyone who suggests their mature enough to teach "God's Word" on His behalf should be exemplifying. 

In order to do what the Bible teaches us to do there has to be discussion and communication between people. Will it all be right, good, even useful? Of course not. But if no one tries, no one talks, no one will know.

When the news is good, we speak it. When it's not - do we ignore it? Reinvent it, translate it into something that sounds better?

The Church isn't someone's personal organization that they run and manage as they see fit - its a newly minted reality where all are brought together in unity through Christ, and God fills us all through Christ. 

Notice how evil tries to segment and silence the individual, prevents inquiry, refuses to accept criticism, denies responsibility, blames others, prefers a vacuum. That's not the Body of Christ, the "Mystery" in living action, where each individual has God working and willing in them to both have the will and the desire to do as God wishes. 

Trash talk gets old and endless rounds of gossip damaging and hurtful. But if the Church doesn't make some effort to protect and warn itself and others - 

Who will? 

 

 

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