Hi Grace Valerie Claire. If we used commas in names, you’d be a Trinity! :)
I don’t think we’ve met, yet. But I do hear you, about negative experiences.
After looking into it for a while, I decided to believe that the difficulties that happened in TWI were due NOT to the books, but to the verbal tradition and other practices that grew up that were contrary to the books contents. It was due to not knowing the books well enough that the problems ended up prevailing. There were times and places in the ministry where things went well, and I seek those factors.
***
OldSkool and JayDee for years I went round and round on the two topics you brought up, plagiarism and PhD validity. Do you remember my responses? How about Research Geek’s response to the PhD issue? I can dig it up, but it would take time. I like calling him Dr Wiewille because he helped me out a lot and I thought he deserved that kind of respect. There are about two other people in my life whom I call “Doctor” and they don’t even have degrees from a mill. It’s a fun respect thing for me to call people "Doctor" or "Doc" and Dr is the written form.
And then the plagiarism issue was deftly handled by dMiller here. I think that’s his name. Do you remember how that put the fizzle on the plagiarism issue? We also deeply discussed the theology, philosophy, and neuroscience of original thought which, to me, was MUCH more interesting than stuffy academic market copyrighteous baloney. Do you remember any of that?
Not only are those tired old subjects to me, but they have nothing to do with my answer to this thread’s original question. My point was that there was no evil that John S. could point out in the books that I would be infusing into my life.
***
TLC, if you asked about how scientifically controlled my experiment with life these past ten years has been, I’d have to admit it was completely non-rigorous. As I compare it to the years prior there’s no comparison.
A few cool things happened. I became a Grateful Dead fan, for one, after systematically hating them and ignoring them for 45 years. I like listening to their old tapes, and I hang out with GD cover bands and a community of musicians.
Another thing was my mirror reversal “theory” has become a book. I got it started here on GreaseSpot in a thread titled “How does a mirror reverse left and right but not up and down?” Here I got my first practice answering that riddle in writing. I had played with it verbally for almost 40 years, but getting it into written form was a lot of fun.
Another lifelong project of mine came to maturity about 5 years ago. I had a 40 year hobby tinkering with toys that could dance. I started with a slinkie and later found other mechanisms that could do some quite impressive dancing. From by background as a Physics major and from the math involved in dance motion, I tinkered away, year after year, until all of a sudden I realized that I could do with my body what I was getting toys to do. At that same time I “discovered” that the Grateful Dead always fine tuned their music to a thousand dancers right in front of them. Add in 37 years of window cleaning where I disciplined my body for speed, accuracy, and endurance on a DAILY basis. End result is I kind of cracked the code on dance. This I know to be true because twenty-something women tell me as they come to me to dance. That makes it extra fun. Their boyfriends are always 20 feet away, but I have lots of fun and I don’t have to buy them drinks.
The third thing that happened was the biggest surprise. All my life I wondered how we could have free will in the face of micro determinism. This riddle I had no clue how to solve, but I tried many approaches, and for over 40 years.
Then the unexpected happened 3 years ago. After perfecting the solution to the mirror riddle for so may years, it finally evolved to a point where I could see it might help me with the free will riddle. What I saw was a strange similarity between the mirror riddle and the free will riddle. My hunch was that if the problems had a similar form, maybe the solutions would have similar form also. Worked on that hunch for a few months and it suddenly opened up. I’ve written a couple of papers on it and am circulating them among some neuroscientists and Philosophy professors I know and having lots of fun discussions.
As far as Dr’s books go, I’m enjoying the peacefulness of reading them and incorporating them into my life without any debate. When I was here posting I was urging grads to take a second look at the books… just the books. I am practicing what I was preaching and enjoying it.
For 12 years I thought the PFAL books worked – even though the results in my life and what I saw in the lives of those around me during my TWI involvement were negligible or non-existent – quite a disappointment from the supposed extraordinary benefits of the PFAL class/books that I was led to expect by the person who got me to signed up for the class.
I’m still amazed that I stuck with such a worthless-abusive-exploiting-moneygrubbing-predatory-parasitic-deceptive-manipulative organization for 12 years thinking it was doing me some good…must have been the placebo effect…confabulation…some form of disassociation…ministry doublespeak didn’t help any….and when all else fails you can always spiritualize yourself into oblivion: “my car is on the fritz, I can’t make rent again, can’t work overtime cuz I’ll miss Twigs and helping to run a class…my life sucks - - - no wait – there I am going by my five senses again – better renew my mind.”
T-Bone I hear you. Some of that happened to me, and lots of it happened to people close to me. I find it useful to carefully zone in on what went right.
Rocky, John S had told me I'd do well, and TLC asked according to who’s standard’s.
I assume he meant according to his standards and the context of our discussions, which was pretty standard Biblical traditions of non-nastiness. Bottom line: he meant Dr’s books wouldn’t corrupt me like TWI was corrupted.
BTW, did you work once for Western Union Company? I did 1970-72. Same time so did Ken Barden, 7th Corps.
Rocky, John S had told me I'd do well, and TLC asked according to who’s standard’s.
I assume he meant according to his standards and the context of our discussions, which was pretty standard Biblical traditions of non-nastiness. Bottom line: he meant Dr’s books wouldn’t corrupt me like TWI was corrupted.
BTW, did you work once for Western Union Company? I did 1970-72. Same time so did Ken Barden, 7th Corps.
T-Bone I hear you. Some of that happened to me, and lots of it happened to people close to me. I find it useful to carefully zone in on what went right.
oh yeah - that's another thing I forgot to mention on my list - tunnel vision
It can be a useful skill, to be able to turn "tunnel vision" on and off. It's when it gets stuck in the "on" position that it can get troublesome. Do you think it's possible for someone to succumb again to "stuck on" tunnel vision by hanging out at GreaseSpot too much?
I think most folks who frequent Grease Spot learn to develop critical thinking skills - and in that regard, are not prone to get stuck in one mode of thinking; a critical thinker is wise enough to figure out when to focus or zero in on a subject of interest and when to step back for an overview - toggling between the two provides context with detail.
T-Bone, I remember feeling the need to step back often in the 1970s TWI. I saw many who seemed to lack this skill. Sometimes I envied them as having more commitment than me. . That may have been the case at times.
But I was asking you about developing troubling tunnel vision here at GreaseSpot, not for occasional visitors, but for the people who LIVE here, and immerse their thought processes in the "get the bad guy" mentality that prevails here.
TLC, if you asked about how scientifically controlled my experiment with life these past ten years has been, I’d have to admit it was completely non-rigorous. As I compare it to the years prior there’s no comparison.
Didn't ask (or care) about "scientifically controlled" anything. Only what your perspective on "doing well" was or is. Which (thus far), you haven't actually said... as you've only indicated it's better than however you measured yourself and thought yourself to be doing in the years prior. Care to clarify (or specify) what you mean, exactly? (I'd rather not suggest anything that might inadvertently lead, push, pull or sway your mind in any particular direction.)
11 hours ago, Mike said:
After perfecting the solution to the mirror riddle for so may years...
So, there's a puzzle in how the brain processes and perceives the world around us, and you perfected the solution?
11 hours ago, Mike said:
...it finally evolved to a point where I could see it might help me with the free will riddle.
Two sides to every coin, it seems. How do you see it?
For brevity, I was being pretty sketchy there regarding detail in my life this past decade. If you are interested in any of the items I mentioned, I’d be happy to PM about them.
What I was trying to get across most is that my mind did not turn to mush.
Many people were genuinely concerned that my focus on the written works of VPW would do me harm. Didn’t happen. Just the opposite occurred in that my thought processes and activities blossomed out in some ways to a surprising degree. I find myself more thankful than ever before in my life, in spite of the difficulties of growing older and slower.
T-Bone, I remember feeling the need to step back often in the 1970s TWI. I saw many who seemed to lack this skill. Sometimes I envied them as having more commitment than me. . That may have been the case at times.
But I was asking you about developing troubling tunnel vision here at GreaseSpot, not for occasional visitors, but for the people who LIVE here, and immerse their thought processes in the "get the bad guy" mentality that prevails here.
I was referring to those who frequent Grease Spot - not the occasional visitor; but I do understand what you're saying - I tend to think there's some who get so immersed in defending the bad guys (vpw and company) they don't listen to all that's said here
Either way, Mike, your focus is on the PAST. Jerry's dead and so is vic. If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it. Honestly, your infatuation with The Grateful Dead is far healthier for your soul than the Wierwille schtick, IMO. A lot more phun too! I enjoy living in the present with presence. I look toward to the future with hope, enthusiasm, and excitement for what great NEW things I'll learn, wonderful people I'll meet, and what new marvels will be discovered and/or revealed. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. I like living on the top of the mountain, where the air is clear, and the view is endless. Floors are to be walked on. Ceilings are to be shattered. Unless one accepts that the floors are all self-made, static, rigid, and "under your feet", spreading your human wings and flying free will just remain a bittersweet dream. Lift up your eyes, Mike. Get off the 60 year old floor and climb the mountains, sail the seas, and feed your soul. It's more like the Grateful Dead than Branded or The Victors! LOL!..........peace.
OldSkool and JayDee for years I went round and round on the two topics you brought up, plagiarism and PhD validity. Do you remember my responses? How about Research Geek’s response to the PhD issue? I can dig it up, but it would take time. I like calling him Dr Wiewille because he helped me out a lot and I thought he deserved that kind of respect. There are about two other people in my life whom I call “Doctor” and they don’t even have degrees from a mill. It’s a fun respect thing for me to call people "Doctor" or "Doc" and Dr is the written form.
And then the plagiarism issue was deftly handled by dMiller here. I think that’s his name. Do you remember how that put the fizzle on the plagiarism issue? We also deeply discussed the theology, philosophy, and neuroscience of original thought which, to me, was MUCH more interesting than stuffy academic market copyrighteous baloney. Do you remember any of that?
Not only are those tired old subjects to me, but they have nothing to do with my answer to this thread’s original question. My point was that there was no evil that John S. could point out in the books that I would be infusing into my life.
I don't remember any of your responses and aren't sure that i've followed along on your threads. Be that as it may, Wierwille wasn't a Dr and was a plagiarist. The way international is very selective in what they allow / disallow when it comes to what is deemed acceptable in the lives of their followers. I think our Lord called it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. TWI picks out the tiniest minutia in their followers lives to hold them accountable and keep them on the hamster wheel. Never fast enough never good enough. Yet TWI knowingly turns a blind eye to all the BS that wierwille pulled, from his sexual exploitation of young females in his congregation , to his plagiarism in most all his works, to his crap doctorate degree from pikes peak, etc. Standards are standards and according to TWI they strive to exceed acceptable standards in any and all categories as representatives of Christ. But they only do so where it doesn't threaten their sham of a ministry by exposing VPW for the fraud he really was. Anywho, not my place to judge your walk and I really hope that your life is great while getting better everyday. Cheers!
For brevity, I was being pretty sketchy there regarding detail in my life this past decade. If you are interested in any of the items I mentioned, I’d be happy to PM about them.
Sure. It's not clear to me what your measuring stick was/is, so feel free to PM me if you're more comfortable with it.
Any written work can offer a springboard to whole host of other things. But how useful or helpful it is seems to depend on a summation such things as: how much truth it contains, how quickly and easily the effectiveness (and/or error in it) is recognized or perceived, and to what degree any of it is accepted, believed, or acted upon. After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth. Still, the real difficulty isn't in recognizing truth (or harder yet, applicable truth.) A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.
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Mike
Hi Ralph. Be gentle. :)
***
Hi Grace Valerie Claire. If we used commas in names, you’d be a Trinity! :)
I don’t think we’ve met, yet. But I do hear you, about negative experiences.
After looking into it for a while, I decided to believe that the difficulties that happened in TWI were due NOT to the books, but to the verbal tradition and other practices that grew up that were contrary to the books contents. It was due to not knowing the books well enough that the problems ended up prevailing. There were times and places in the ministry where things went well, and I seek those factors.
***
OldSkool and JayDee for years I went round and round on the two topics you brought up, plagiarism and PhD validity. Do you remember my responses? How about Research Geek’s response to the PhD issue? I can dig it up, but it would take time. I like calling him Dr Wiewille because he helped me out a lot and I thought he deserved that kind of respect. There are about two other people in my life whom I call “Doctor” and they don’t even have degrees from a mill. It’s a fun respect thing for me to call people "Doctor" or "Doc" and Dr is the written form.
And then the plagiarism issue was deftly handled by dMiller here. I think that’s his name. Do you remember how that put the fizzle on the plagiarism issue? We also deeply discussed the theology, philosophy, and neuroscience of original thought which, to me, was MUCH more interesting than stuffy academic market copyrighteous baloney. Do you remember any of that?
Not only are those tired old subjects to me, but they have nothing to do with my answer to this thread’s original question. My point was that there was no evil that John S. could point out in the books that I would be infusing into my life.
***
TLC, if you asked about how scientifically controlled my experiment with life these past ten years has been, I’d have to admit it was completely non-rigorous. As I compare it to the years prior there’s no comparison.
A few cool things happened. I became a Grateful Dead fan, for one, after systematically hating them and ignoring them for 45 years. I like listening to their old tapes, and I hang out with GD cover bands and a community of musicians.
Another thing was my mirror reversal “theory” has become a book. I got it started here on GreaseSpot in a thread titled “How does a mirror reverse left and right but not up and down?” Here I got my first practice answering that riddle in writing. I had played with it verbally for almost 40 years, but getting it into written form was a lot of fun.
Another lifelong project of mine came to maturity about 5 years ago. I had a 40 year hobby tinkering with toys that could dance. I started with a slinkie and later found other mechanisms that could do some quite impressive dancing. From by background as a Physics major and from the math involved in dance motion, I tinkered away, year after year, until all of a sudden I realized that I could do with my body what I was getting toys to do. At that same time I “discovered” that the Grateful Dead always fine tuned their music to a thousand dancers right in front of them. Add in 37 years of window cleaning where I disciplined my body for speed, accuracy, and endurance on a DAILY basis. End result is I kind of cracked the code on dance. This I know to be true because twenty-something women tell me as they come to me to dance. That makes it extra fun. Their boyfriends are always 20 feet away, but I have lots of fun and I don’t have to buy them drinks.
The third thing that happened was the biggest surprise. All my life I wondered how we could have free will in the face of micro determinism. This riddle I had no clue how to solve, but I tried many approaches, and for over 40 years.
Then the unexpected happened 3 years ago. After perfecting the solution to the mirror riddle for so may years, it finally evolved to a point where I could see it might help me with the free will riddle. What I saw was a strange similarity between the mirror riddle and the free will riddle. My hunch was that if the problems had a similar form, maybe the solutions would have similar form also. Worked on that hunch for a few months and it suddenly opened up. I’ve written a couple of papers on it and am circulating them among some neuroscientists and Philosophy professors I know and having lots of fun discussions.
As far as Dr’s books go, I’m enjoying the peacefulness of reading them and incorporating them into my life without any debate. When I was here posting I was urging grads to take a second look at the books… just the books. I am practicing what I was preaching and enjoying it.
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T-Bone
For 12 years I thought the PFAL books worked – even though the results in my life and what I saw in the lives of those around me during my TWI involvement were negligible or non-existent – quite a disappointment from the supposed extraordinary benefits of the PFAL class/books that I was led to expect by the person who got me to signed up for the class.
I’m still amazed that I stuck with such a worthless-abusive-exploiting-moneygrubbing-predatory-parasitic-deceptive-manipulative organization for 12 years thinking it was doing me some good…must have been the placebo effect…confabulation…some form of disassociation…ministry doublespeak didn’t help any….and when all else fails you can always spiritualize yourself into oblivion: “my car is on the fritz, I can’t make rent again, can’t work overtime cuz I’ll miss Twigs and helping to run a class…my life sucks - - - no wait – there I am going by my five senses again – better renew my mind.”
Placebo
confabulation
dissociation
doublespeak
spiritualize
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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Mike
stray post
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Mike
T-Bone I hear you. Some of that happened to me, and lots of it happened to people close to me. I find it useful to carefully zone in on what went right.
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Mike
Actually I was here 7 years ago doing light posting, but the Mike Wars ended 10 years ago... I think.
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Rocky
Great question. Thanks for posing it.
From where I sit (or stand), it doesn't make a hill of beans difference what one believes about God (or god or gods).
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Mike
Rocky, John S had told me I'd do well, and TLC asked according to who’s standard’s.
I assume he meant according to his standards and the context of our discussions, which was pretty standard Biblical traditions of non-nastiness. Bottom line: he meant Dr’s books wouldn’t corrupt me like TWI was corrupted.
BTW, did you work once for Western Union Company? I did 1970-72. Same time so did Ken Barden, 7th Corps.
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Rocky
Yes... late 1970s, then again in the early 1980s.
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Mike
Where? I was at 60 Hudson for a while, then 600 Third Ave, all in Manhattan NY. What a fun job that was!
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T-Bone
oh yeah - that's another thing I forgot to mention on my list - tunnel vision
tunnel vision
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Mike
It can be a useful skill, to be able to turn "tunnel vision" on and off. It's when it gets stuck in the "on" position that it can get troublesome. Do you think it's possible for someone to succumb again to "stuck on" tunnel vision by hanging out at GreaseSpot too much?
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T-Bone
I think most folks who frequent Grease Spot learn to develop critical thinking skills - and in that regard, are not prone to get stuck in one mode of thinking; a critical thinker is wise enough to figure out when to focus or zero in on a subject of interest and when to step back for an overview - toggling between the two provides context with detail.
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Mike
T-Bone, I remember feeling the need to step back often in the 1970s TWI. I saw many who seemed to lack this skill. Sometimes I envied them as having more commitment than me. . That may have been the case at times.
Edited by MikeBut I was asking you about developing troubling tunnel vision here at GreaseSpot, not for occasional visitors, but for the people who LIVE here, and immerse their thought processes in the "get the bad guy" mentality that prevails here.
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TLC
Didn't ask (or care) about "scientifically controlled" anything. Only what your perspective on "doing well" was or is. Which (thus far), you haven't actually said... as you've only indicated it's better than however you measured yourself and thought yourself to be doing in the years prior. Care to clarify (or specify) what you mean, exactly? (I'd rather not suggest anything that might inadvertently lead, push, pull or sway your mind in any particular direction.)
So, there's a puzzle in how the brain processes and perceives the world around us, and you perfected the solution?
Two sides to every coin, it seems. How do you see it?
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Mike
TLC,
For brevity, I was being pretty sketchy there regarding detail in my life this past decade. If you are interested in any of the items I mentioned, I’d be happy to PM about them.
What I was trying to get across most is that my mind did not turn to mush.
Many people were genuinely concerned that my focus on the written works of VPW would do me harm. Didn’t happen. Just the opposite occurred in that my thought processes and activities blossomed out in some ways to a surprising degree. I find myself more thankful than ever before in my life, in spite of the difficulties of growing older and slower.
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T-Bone
I was referring to those who frequent Grease Spot - not the occasional visitor; but I do understand what you're saying - I tend to think there's some who get so immersed in defending the bad guys (vpw and company) they don't listen to all that's said here
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Mike
OMG!~ This came across my FB Newsfeed just this morning :
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Mike
So, who's going to draw the conclusion: Dr's books cause you to like the Grateful Dead?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Either way, Mike, your focus is on the PAST. Jerry's dead and so is vic. If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it. Honestly, your infatuation with The Grateful Dead is far healthier for your soul than the Wierwille schtick, IMO. A lot more phun too! I enjoy living in the present with presence. I look toward to the future with hope, enthusiasm, and excitement for what great NEW things I'll learn, wonderful people I'll meet, and what new marvels will be discovered and/or revealed. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. I like living on the top of the mountain, where the air is clear, and the view is endless. Floors are to be walked on. Ceilings are to be shattered. Unless one accepts that the floors are all self-made, static, rigid, and "under your feet", spreading your human wings and flying free will just remain a bittersweet dream. Lift up your eyes, Mike. Get off the 60 year old floor and climb the mountains, sail the seas, and feed your soul. It's more like the Grateful Dead than Branded or The Victors! LOL!..........peace.
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Mike
Thanks, Ralph. I wish the best for you and yours as well. :)
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waysider
Welcome back, Mike.
I'll cut straight to the point.
1.After investing so many years into studying Wierwille's books, are you still of the opinion they are the product of divine revelation?
2. Do you still hold to the assertion that, when Christ returns, He''ll be brandishing a PFAL book in his right hand?
3. Are you still chasing after that elusive *golden pony*?
An extensive dissertation is not required, just a simple synopsis will suffice.
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OldSkool
I don't remember any of your responses and aren't sure that i've followed along on your threads. Be that as it may, Wierwille wasn't a Dr and was a plagiarist. The way international is very selective in what they allow / disallow when it comes to what is deemed acceptable in the lives of their followers. I think our Lord called it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. TWI picks out the tiniest minutia in their followers lives to hold them accountable and keep them on the hamster wheel. Never fast enough never good enough. Yet TWI knowingly turns a blind eye to all the BS that wierwille pulled, from his sexual exploitation of young females in his congregation , to his plagiarism in most all his works, to his crap doctorate degree from pikes peak, etc. Standards are standards and according to TWI they strive to exceed acceptable standards in any and all categories as representatives of Christ. But they only do so where it doesn't threaten their sham of a ministry by exposing VPW for the fraud he really was. Anywho, not my place to judge your walk and I really hope that your life is great while getting better everyday. Cheers!
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TLC
Sure. It's not clear to me what your measuring stick was/is, so feel free to PM me if you're more comfortable with it.
Any written work can offer a springboard to whole host of other things. But how useful or helpful it is seems to depend on a summation such things as: how much truth it contains, how quickly and easily the effectiveness (and/or error in it) is recognized or perceived, and to what degree any of it is accepted, believed, or acted upon. After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth. Still, the real difficulty isn't in recognizing truth (or harder yet, applicable truth.) A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.
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TLC
Nah... seriously ?
This is the guy that said that ?
Surely he must have been just trying to push somebody's button...
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