Well, it's been over five years...... and it seems appropriate to ask a few questions.
Anything happening with all those cloistered-clergy efforts at Revival and Restoration?
Are they gaining any momentum or has their bluster faded away?
Are their teachings reaching any one besides the choir?
Any one here privy to their status?
############
I can't help but think what I said a few years ago has come to pass......i.e.
"First of all, this RnR group will SOON REALIZE.......once people break away from the fear-based twit-cult, they will NOT automatically follow another "designated leader." Once the stranglehold is broken......and IF any venture on over to GSC......they will find whole new vistas of thought and freedom. Their critical thought processes will engage......AND......many will STOP GOING TO AN RnR-SPLINTER GROUP, as well.
Many who went to CES..........don't anymore.
Many who went to CFF..........don't anymore.
Once people break free from the chains of fear, manipulation and exploitation........they ain't going to regularly attend RnR "fellowships" and give a hunk of their hard-earned money to ANOTHER group that preaches wierwille-adulation. Plus, add in some corps grad egos who want salaried........and, bang, off to the races they go with more in-fighting, back-biting, and splintering.
Once people exit a cult..........it's a new world out there."
seem to be working together somehwhat from what I can tell. RnR is Ed Horney taking the lead and Oikeos is Rico Magnelli. Thats all I really know though. I did goto two RnR fellowships in Indy in 2018 I guess....basically functioned like a TWI fellowship to the letter with a less rigid vibe to it. Wasn't for me then or now.
Well, it's been over five years...... and it seems appropriate to ask a few questions.
Anything happening with all those cloistered-clergy efforts at Revival and Restoration?
Are they gaining any momentum or has their bluster faded away?
Are their teachings reaching any one besides the choir?
Any one here privy to their status?
############
I can't help but think what I said a few years ago has come to pass......i.e.
"First of all, this RnR group will SOON REALIZE.......once people break away from the fear-based twit-cult, they will NOT automatically follow another "designated leader." Once the stranglehold is broken......and IF any venture on over to GSC......they will find whole new vistas of thought and freedom. Their critical thought processes will engage......AND......many will STOP GOING TO AN RnR-SPLINTER GROUP, as well.
Many who went to CES..........don't anymore.
Many who went to CFF..........don't anymore.
Once people break free from the chains of fear, manipulation and exploitation........they ain't going to regularly attend RnR "fellowships" and give a hunk of their hard-earned money to ANOTHER group that preaches wierwille-adulation. Plus, add in some corps grad egos who want salaried........and, bang, off to the races they go with more in-fighting, back-biting, and splintering.
Once people exit a cult..........it's a new world out there."
sky I looked over rnr and oikeos. I can't discount either of these groups from being part of the body of Christ obviously.
Rnr seems not governed with just a teaching series. Oikeos seems like Rico invented another class based ministry fixing what was perceived wrong with way structure. Both groups are permeated with old way acquaintances and no mixing in with any other Christian groups at all. Oikeos did acknowledge they were not the only group spreading the gospel so at least they are a step up from the Way there.
Is this a shipwreck of the family faith? With Gilligans Island castaways? Or is it a Living Word example with people doing the best they can with their past and limits?
I can't honestly answer that.
I can't do splinters personally. To me they just form large balls of puss under the skin. But Jesus Christ does get to a person where they live, and God works with what He has. Let them heal and recover. Let the Savior move freely with his recovery and restoration.
I don't think they are living the verses in Corinthians they teach. I think they have blinders on to the rest of the body of Christ.
Once people exit a cult..........it's a new world out there."
Yeah, a whole new world.
I can't help but say AMEN (and AWOMEN) to the behavioral insights of your initial reflections and predictions.
In a way... or put differently... RandR was a reactionary "movement." They grew fed up with aspects of the Wierwille cult and how it had malformed over the decades... and only wanted to go back to what they believed were the righteous aspects of the movement they "grew up" in.
They aren't and weren't a visionary group with new ideas or new ways of looking at what they understood from their biblical studies or religious practices.
What is it Victor used to teach? A person can't go farther (or was it further) than he is taught?
At times like these I think back to a book Gail Sheehy wrote decades ago, Pathfinders. Originally published in 1982, I remember reading it in the 1990s. The late journalist (she succumbed to Covid, before there was a vaccine, IIRC) was a true visionary and had plenty of insight that the R and R bots could have (or could still) use(d) to get out of the Wierwille mold. (two separate legit usages of "mold" intended here).
Anyway, Skyrider, I again appreciate your insight...
... and Chockfull's insight too.
21 minutes ago, chockfull said:
Is this a shipwreck of the family faith? With Gilligans Island castaways? Or is it a Living Word example with people doing the best they can with their past and limits?
I can't honestly answer that.
For individuals involved, I can't honestly answer it either. However, as a group, or as a movement hoping to actually revitalize groups of followers of Wierwille, it seems obvious to me that they lack necessary the ability to "think" or envision outside of the box they've been trapped in (of their own choosing) for decades.
For individuals involved, I can't honestly answer it either. However, as a group, or as a movement hoping to actually revitalize groups of followers of Wierwille, it seems obvious to me that they lack necessary the ability to "think" or envision outside of the box they've been trapped in (of their own choosing) for decades.
Great posts Chockfull and Rocky! Rocky, this last sentence sure resonted for me. One of my former best friends went headlong into RnR after being way corps and leaving TWI for RnR. He stated over and over again to me, which I disagreed, that there was nothing wrong with the package wierwille put together - the problem was with rosalies leadership. Again, I disagree - obviously, but can relate. It wasn't until I began to truly investigate the way international's doctrines that the shades began to come off. But...like you and Chock...I have nothing bad to say about either group really. just don't know too much about them and don't wanna be involved. I simply CANNOT do a splinter group...and I tried four different groups including RnR between 2008 and 2018.
What is it Victor used to teach? A person can't go farther (or was it further) than he is taught?
I have thought a lot about this claim. It's pure bullsh¡t in the Frankfurtian sense. It may be a lie, also.
The factual truth is one most definitely can go beyond what one is taught. It happens all the time. In the case of victor's teaching, one MUST go beyond what one is taught.
In the case of victor's teaching, one MUST go beyond what one is taught.
Anything VPW put together himself and "taught" - definitely.
I wouldn't discount the original sources of the material he plagiarised. Some of those are probably very good. But the twist put on the copies taints the copies badly.
In any event: 1 Th 5:21 (NASB) but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good
which means, really check it out, think about it in detail, and how it fits with the rest of what you know about the subject and about the Bible in general.
The reverse of "holding firmly to that which is good" is "abandon, discard, throw away that which is false or faulty." I think we do a lot of that, here at GSC.
I have thought a lot about this claim. It's pure bullsh¡t in the Frankfurtian sense. It may be a lie, also.
The factual truth is one most definitely can go beyond what one is taught. It happens all the time. In the case of victor's teaching, one MUST go beyond what one is taught.
Unless one goes beyond what vpw taught, one can't go beyond his insistence that one can't go beyond what one is taught!
I really think that Rnr is more a matter of the golden parachutes and paychecks of a few twi higher-ups who realized twi was planning on leaving them high and dry. If they had been given a bigger slice of the pie, they would have stayed in twi longer yet. These were leaders who stayed when all the previous exoduses (exodi?) saw everyone with sense jump ship. Other than realizing they were getting older, there was no reason to finally leave.
Unless one goes beyond what vpw taught, one can't go beyond his insistence that one can't go beyond what one is taught!
Perhaps true, yet he may have had a valid point about self-limiting lack of vision. That's why I cited Sheehy's Pathfinders, which book inspired me to go beyond what Wierwille taught. And to "think outside the box."
Ironically, it appears on the surface that twi has/is doing their best to revitalize themselves by going back to pfal and noe living victoriously today as theme for anniversary weekend, Way ambassadors and young adult rock?
I have thought a lot about this claim. It's pure bullsh¡t in the Frankfurtian sense. It may be a lie, also.
The factual truth is one most definitely can go beyond what one is taught. It happens all the time. In the case of victor's teaching, one MUST go beyond what one is taught.
I would agree that most advancements humans make in any field basically consists of a group of people going beyond what they were taught.
But one condescending platitude from VP in a class and now you have new layers of bondage
Ironically, it appears on the surface that twi has/is doing their best to revitalize themselves by going back to pfal and noe living victoriously today as theme for anniversary weekend, Way ambassadors and young adult rock?
Yeah...they are reaching hard back into what used to work back when ole vic co-opted the hippies to come to the rock. So much so that they are actively reaching out to ex-way corps asking if they want to come back.
Yeah...they are reaching hard back into what used to work back when ole vic co-opted the hippies to come to the rock. So much so that they are actively reaching out to ex-way corps asking if they want to come back.
This all has to be a subtle plot by B1ll Gr33n3 to influence society to bring back the leisure suit.
Yeah...they are reaching hard back into what used to work back when ole vic co-opted the hippies to come to the rock. So much so that they are actively reaching out to ex-way corps asking if they want to come back.
Yep....they are reaching back when the deception worked in vic's day.
Back when..... there was NO INTERNET
Back when..... twi could CONTROL the messaging and revised history
Back when..... vic praised his Ohio-frumpy adult enablers with crazy hyperbole
Back when..... wierwille and howard could sexually abuse any girl "in the kingdom"
Back when..... youth "leaders" idolized the cult leader and drank his kool-aide
Back when..... elena whites!de wrote a fabricated utopia of "The Way: Living in Love"
Yep....they are reaching back when the deception worked in vic's day.
Back when..... there was NO INTERNET
Back when..... twi could CONTROL the messaging and revised history
Back when..... vic praised his Ohio-frumpy adult enablers with crazy hyperbole
Back when..... wierwille and howard could sexually abuse any girl "in the kingdom"
Back when..... youth "leaders" idolized the cult leader and drank his kool-aide
Back when..... elena whites!de wrote a fabricated utopia of "The Way: Living in Love"
Those were the days, my friend. LOL
The current BOD have moved beyond the technophobic 3rd prez. They are buying websites to put up more whitewash.
I guess when the cult in America is unsustainable they can always fall back on their cultural appropriation Christianity to fill the gaps in their amazing leadership.
I really think that Rnr is more a matter of the golden parachutes and paychecks of a few twi higher-ups who realized twi was planning on leaving them high and dry. If they had been given a bigger slice of the pie, they would have stayed in twi longer yet. These were leaders who stayed when all the previous exoduses (exodi?) saw everyone with sense jump ship. Other than realizing they were getting older, there was no reason to finally leave.
I agree with this assessment...........ie, *a few of these twi higher-ups (ex-corps coordinators and clergy)* would have stayed with twi if the bod had dished out TO THEM a bigger slice of the pie. Heck, if they're going to continue to preach and teach pfal according to wierwille, then why instigate division? BECAUSE..... Rosalie and Donna were making them jump thru hoops with NO JUSTIFIABLE COMPENSATION.
So.....they take their marbles and move the game across the street.
Big whoop.
Here at GSC, we've gone back and documented the flawed research. We've shown clearly the doctrinal errors and how it led to practical errors in judgment and service. We've lifted the burdens of fear, guilt and shame and set twi-captives free. We've documented the plagiarism and how the wierwille-mystique gave way to idolizing a man who was NOT fit for the office of a church elder. Here at GSC......it is my contention that we've done far greater service for the ex-cult community than these guys from RnR and Oideos will ever do.
How can it possibly be *honorable* before God...... when modern-day Pharisees [twi and splinter leaders alike] uphold "the law of wierwille-doctrine" above the scriptures? How can they cling to wierwille's teaching on "the absent Christ" when we see plainly that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [I Timothy 2:5] and he is the mediator of the new testament [Hebrews 9:14]?
If these splinter guys simply regurgitate pfal to their ex-twi groups..... then they are omitting "the weightier matters" of God's law, judgment, mercy and faith.
And, some of us here at GSC believe that wierwille skewed the teachings of the nine manifestations of holy spirit. He tweaked them in a way that assigned them as rote [routine] acceptance....ie. speaking in tongues with interpretation in a believer's meeting. Oftentimes, calling on someone in the audience that was neither ready nor inspired by God with such utterances.
I believe that our service, here at GSC, is far greater than the well-worn path of modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites. The splinter guys are also lording over God's heritage......not setting free those who are held captive to pfal's cult-indoctrination.
Matthew 23 details this clarity:
Woe unto you........hypocrites[shut up the kingdom of heaven against men] (verse 13)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[ye devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayer] (verse 14)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[make disciples twofold more the child of hell than yourselves] (verse 15)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith] (verse 23)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[make clean the outside of the cup...within is full of extortion and excess] (verse 25)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[whited sepulchers.....full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness] (verse 27)
Woe unto you........hypocrites[you build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchers] (verse 29)
How can it possibly be *honorable* before God...... when modern-day Pharisees [twi and splinter leaders alike] uphold "the law of wierwille-doctrine" above the scriptures?
They don't know better. Seems like EVERY religious institution (twi is obviously a very minor "institution") is only concerned about what is good for the organization. Not unlike the clergy-penitent privilege that protects child abusers in many states from being discovered. A huge factor for both the Mormon/LDS and Catholic Churches to PROTECT THEMSELVES. Not interested in what's best for the people they're supposed to serve.
In the case of TWI and/or splinter groups, THEY can't go past what they know because they have no vision and nobody they want to trust has told them they CAN go further.
They don't know better. Seems like EVERY religious institution (twi is obviously a very minor "institution") is only concerned about what is good for the organization. Not unlike the clergy-penitent privilege that protects child abusers in many states from being discovered. A huge factor for both the Mormon/LDS and Catholic Churches to PROTECT THEMSELVES. Not interested in what's best for the people they're supposed to serve.
In the case of TWI and/or splinter groups, THEY can't go past what they know because they have no vision and nobody they want to trust has told them they CAN go further.
Private corporations protected by a tax code ostensibly bolstered by the First Amendment. Why are human rights offenses perpetrated by these religious corporations tolerated, even permitted, even sanctioned by an enlightened society? It's regressive and vulgar.
Let them be treated as they are - for-profit corporations. If they endeavor charitable, altruistic actions, let them deduct those, as can I.
The atrocities one is allowed in this country, if only he can get himself called reverend!
Once people exit a cult..........it's a new world out there."
.
A very scary new world for me. Being M&A’ed, my only human relationships were cut off immediately. I had not build any relationships outside of TWI at the direction of TWI. I did not want to have any influences outside of the household keeping me from building my relation with God. I blocked all relationships outside of TWI.
A very scary new world for me. Being M&A’ed, my only human relationships were cut off immediately. I had not build any relationships outside of TWI at the direction of TWI. I did not want to have any influences outside of the household keeping me from building my relation with God. I blocked all relationships outside of TWI.
Abject wickedness... and sadness. This is how one KNOWS one is/was in a cult or in a narcissistic relationship. Insularity never has been and never will be an aspect of coming into awareness of that which is eternal, that which cannot be named.
Only the lie requires belief. Only the liar needs someone to BELIEVE him for his lie to work. Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. Watch. Listen.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
Watered Garden
I'm not even going to bother listening/watching to the R&R presentations you all are talking about. I remember when we got the boot writing a four-page letter explaining our situation to the Rever
penguin2
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I
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OldSkool
https://revivalandrestoration.org/
and
https://oikeos.org/
seem to be working together somehwhat from what I can tell. RnR is Ed Horney taking the lead and Oikeos is Rico Magnelli. Thats all I really know though. I did goto two RnR fellowships in Indy in 2018 I guess....basically functioned like a TWI fellowship to the letter with a less rigid vibe to it. Wasn't for me then or now.
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chockfull
sky I looked over rnr and oikeos. I can't discount either of these groups from being part of the body of Christ obviously.
Rnr seems not governed with just a teaching series. Oikeos seems like Rico invented another class based ministry fixing what was perceived wrong with way structure. Both groups are permeated with old way acquaintances and no mixing in with any other Christian groups at all. Oikeos did acknowledge they were not the only group spreading the gospel so at least they are a step up from the Way there.
Is this a shipwreck of the family faith? With Gilligans Island castaways? Or is it a Living Word example with people doing the best they can with their past and limits?
I can't honestly answer that.
I can't do splinters personally. To me they just form large balls of puss under the skin. But Jesus Christ does get to a person where they live, and God works with what He has. Let them heal and recover. Let the Savior move freely with his recovery and restoration.
I don't think they are living the verses in Corinthians they teach. I think they have blinders on to the rest of the body of Christ.
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Rocky
Yeah, a whole new world.
I can't help but say AMEN (and AWOMEN) to the behavioral insights of your initial reflections and predictions.
In a way... or put differently... RandR was a reactionary "movement." They grew fed up with aspects of the Wierwille cult and how it had malformed over the decades... and only wanted to go back to what they believed were the righteous aspects of the movement they "grew up" in.
They aren't and weren't a visionary group with new ideas or new ways of looking at what they understood from their biblical studies or religious practices.
What is it Victor used to teach? A person can't go farther (or was it further) than he is taught?
At times like these I think back to a book Gail Sheehy wrote decades ago, Pathfinders. Originally published in 1982, I remember reading it in the 1990s. The late journalist (she succumbed to Covid, before there was a vaccine, IIRC) was a true visionary and had plenty of insight that the R and R bots could have (or could still) use(d) to get out of the Wierwille mold. (two separate legit usages of "mold" intended here).
Anyway, Skyrider, I again appreciate your insight...
... and Chockfull's insight too.
For individuals involved, I can't honestly answer it either. However, as a group, or as a movement hoping to actually revitalize groups of followers of Wierwille, it seems obvious to me that they lack necessary the ability to "think" or envision outside of the box they've been trapped in (of their own choosing) for decades.
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OldSkool
Great posts Chockfull and Rocky! Rocky, this last sentence sure resonted for me. One of my former best friends went headlong into RnR after being way corps and leaving TWI for RnR. He stated over and over again to me, which I disagreed, that there was nothing wrong with the package wierwille put together - the problem was with rosalies leadership. Again, I disagree - obviously, but can relate. It wasn't until I began to truly investigate the way international's doctrines that the shades began to come off. But...like you and Chock...I have nothing bad to say about either group really. just don't know too much about them and don't wanna be involved. I simply CANNOT do a splinter group...and I tried four different groups including RnR between 2008 and 2018.
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Nathan_Jr
I have thought a lot about this claim. It's pure bullsh¡t in the Frankfurtian sense. It may be a lie, also.
The factual truth is one most definitely can go beyond what one is taught. It happens all the time. In the case of victor's teaching, one MUST go beyond what one is taught.
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Twinky
Anything VPW put together himself and "taught" - definitely.
I wouldn't discount the original sources of the material he plagiarised. Some of those are probably very good. But the twist put on the copies taints the copies badly.
In any event: 1 Th 5:21 (NASB) but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good
which means, really check it out, think about it in detail, and how it fits with the rest of what you know about the subject and about the Bible in general.
The reverse of "holding firmly to that which is good" is "abandon, discard, throw away that which is false or faulty." I think we do a lot of that, here at GSC.
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Twinky
And the twist on the copies of TWI in splinter fellowships is definitely tainted.
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WordWolf
Unless one goes beyond what vpw taught, one can't go beyond his insistence that one can't go beyond what one is taught!
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WordWolf
I really think that Rnr is more a matter of the golden parachutes and paychecks of a few twi higher-ups who realized twi was planning on leaving them high and dry. If they had been given a bigger slice of the pie, they would have stayed in twi longer yet. These were leaders who stayed when all the previous exoduses (exodi?) saw everyone with sense jump ship. Other than realizing they were getting older, there was no reason to finally leave.
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Rocky
Perhaps true, yet he may have had a valid point about self-limiting lack of vision. That's why I cited Sheehy's Pathfinders, which book inspired me to go beyond what Wierwille taught. And to "think outside the box."
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penguin2
Ironically, it appears on the surface that twi has/is doing their best to revitalize themselves by going back to pfal and noe living victoriously today as theme for anniversary weekend, Way ambassadors and young adult rock?
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chockfull
I would agree that most advancements humans make in any field basically consists of a group of people going beyond what they were taught.
But one condescending platitude from VP in a class and now you have new layers of bondage
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OldSkool
Yeah...they are reaching hard back into what used to work back when ole vic co-opted the hippies to come to the rock. So much so that they are actively reaching out to ex-way corps asking if they want to come back.
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chockfull
This all has to be a subtle plot by B1ll Gr33n3 to influence society to bring back the leisure suit.
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skyrider
Yep....they are reaching back when the deception worked in vic's day.
Those were the days, my friend. LOL
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OldSkool
Thanks skyrider...I was just getting all warm fuzy and nostalgic over here...not!
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chockfull
The current BOD have moved beyond the technophobic 3rd prez. They are buying websites to put up more whitewash.
I guess when the cult in America is unsustainable they can always fall back on their cultural appropriation Christianity to fill the gaps in their amazing leadership.
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skyrider
I agree with this assessment...........ie, *a few of these twi higher-ups (ex-corps coordinators and clergy)* would have stayed with twi if the bod had dished out TO THEM a bigger slice of the pie. Heck, if they're going to continue to preach and teach pfal according to wierwille, then why instigate division? BECAUSE..... Rosalie and Donna were making them jump thru hoops with NO JUSTIFIABLE COMPENSATION.
So.....they take their marbles and move the game across the street.
Big whoop.
Here at GSC, we've gone back and documented the flawed research. We've shown clearly the doctrinal errors and how it led to practical errors in judgment and service. We've lifted the burdens of fear, guilt and shame and set twi-captives free. We've documented the plagiarism and how the wierwille-mystique gave way to idolizing a man who was NOT fit for the office of a church elder. Here at GSC......it is my contention that we've done far greater service for the ex-cult community than these guys from RnR and Oideos will ever do.
Edited by skyridertypo
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Rocky
Word!
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skyrider
How can it possibly be *honorable* before God...... when modern-day Pharisees [twi and splinter leaders alike] uphold "the law of wierwille-doctrine" above the scriptures? How can they cling to wierwille's teaching on "the absent Christ" when we see plainly that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [I Timothy 2:5] and he is the mediator of the new testament [Hebrews 9:14]?
If these splinter guys simply regurgitate pfal to their ex-twi groups..... then they are omitting "the weightier matters" of God's law, judgment, mercy and faith.
And, some of us here at GSC believe that wierwille skewed the teachings of the nine manifestations of holy spirit. He tweaked them in a way that assigned them as rote [routine] acceptance....ie. speaking in tongues with interpretation in a believer's meeting. Oftentimes, calling on someone in the audience that was neither ready nor inspired by God with such utterances.
I believe that our service, here at GSC, is far greater than the well-worn path of modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites. The splinter guys are also lording over God's heritage......not setting free those who are held captive to pfal's cult-indoctrination.
Matthew 23 details this clarity:
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Rocky
They don't know better. Seems like EVERY religious institution (twi is obviously a very minor "institution") is only concerned about what is good for the organization. Not unlike the clergy-penitent privilege that protects child abusers in many states from being discovered. A huge factor for both the Mormon/LDS and Catholic Churches to PROTECT THEMSELVES. Not interested in what's best for the people they're supposed to serve.
In the case of TWI and/or splinter groups, THEY can't go past what they know because they have no vision and nobody they want to trust has told them they CAN go further.
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Nathan_Jr
Private corporations protected by a tax code ostensibly bolstered by the First Amendment. Why are human rights offenses perpetrated by these religious corporations tolerated, even permitted, even sanctioned by an enlightened society? It's regressive and vulgar.
Let them be treated as they are - for-profit corporations. If they endeavor charitable, altruistic actions, let them deduct those, as can I.
The atrocities one is allowed in this country, if only he can get himself called reverend!
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Stayed Too Long
A very scary new world for me. Being M&A’ed, my only human relationships were cut off immediately. I had not build any relationships outside of TWI at the direction of TWI. I did not want to have any influences outside of the household keeping me from building my relation with God. I blocked all relationships outside of TWI.
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Nathan_Jr
Abject wickedness... and sadness. This is how one KNOWS one is/was in a cult or in a narcissistic relationship. Insularity never has been and never will be an aspect of coming into awareness of that which is eternal, that which cannot be named.
Only the lie requires belief. Only the liar needs someone to BELIEVE him for his lie to work. Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. Watch. Listen.
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