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13 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now)

Not sure if this will fly, but how about the Shrew Crew?

 

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On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:55 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Remember, all the women I mentioned were single, unmarried, and therefore, in dictor’s perverted mind, “property of the King” as dictor said they were in the Old T., referring to Saul, David, Solomon and then the long line of the Kings of Judah and Benjamin in the south and the Kings of the 10 northern tribes, united under the name Israel. Which, when critically examined put EVERY king of Israel in the immediate and untenable position of breaking 3 or 4 of the 10 Commandments (most notably, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”, and, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) including, in most cases, Thou shalt not lie, and Thou shalt not commit murder! That meant if dic’s “rightly-dividing” was indeed right, every king of Israel should have been put to death!

Which I guess explains why this male, on my only private invitation into the coach (at Emporia) got only a pastry to eat. (He invited me when he observed me working alone as coffe crew king). But didn't "the king" apply to any "man of God"?  Evidently we "Men of God" (corps men) were supposed to "loosen up" sexually so we could claim our rightful...well, our "rights" to get our "needs met". Thus my sexual assault at HQ during my last residence year. And I overheard that term "loosen up" used specifically about me right after the "event". I can only speculate if prolific abuser Victor Barnard was  treated that way, but probably "cooperated".

 

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15 hours ago, WordWolf said:

(SNIP)

B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now)  . ..(SNIP)

Bi tch  Perfect 3

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On 5/15/2018 at 8:26 PM, WordWolf said:

Are you kidding?

A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.

B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now)  painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything.  He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.

C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best",  he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.

D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them.  vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!) 

E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.

F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did.  So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table.  He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed.  So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.

 

So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with.  So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.

Hmmm. no. I'm not kidding. Was I not clear enough? Let me try again, more seriously. 

"So is that correct - did LCM's legacy amount to "0" for EVERYone, whether they continue to maintain some, all or any part of what they were taught by The Way....?"

I'm going to put your answer as a "Yes", my question/statement is true. So far everyone appears to agree. 

Thank you for your response, it's appreciated. If anyone reading disagrees or has other thoughts or perspectives please feel free to respond! Thanks!

Edited by socks
Grammar. More, better, faster.

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23 hours ago, Lifted Up said:

Which I guess explains why this male, on my only private invitation into the coach (at Emporia) got only a pastry to eat. (He invited me when he observed me working alone as coffe crew king). But didn't "the king" apply to any "man of God"?  Evidently we "Men of God" (corps men) were supposed to "loosen up" sexually so we could claim our rightful...well, our "rights" to get our "needs met". Thus my sexual assault at HQ during my last residence year. And I overheard that term "loosen up" used specifically about me right after the "event". I can only speculate if prolific abuser Victor Barnard was  treated that way, but probably "cooperated".

Wow - if I am to understand this correctly, here is some background information to what LCM experienced and taught others too during his "VP and Me" gag inducing teachings.

So dictor tries to accost a young woman on coffee crew, invites her up to the motor coach, then gets rebuffed.   After this he teaches the top Way leadership that they need to "loosen up" in the sexual category and specifically references the victim who rebuffed him.   

To be quite clear, what dictor meant by "loosen up" was adultery and sexual assault, sometimes drugged.    In modern terms, a white Fundamentalist Bill Cosby.

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On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:44 PM, chockfull said:

Wow - if I am to understand this correctly, here is some background information to what LCM experienced and taught others too during his "VP and Me" gag inducing teachings.

So dictor tries to accost a young woman on coffee crew, invites her up to the motor coach, then gets rebuffed.   After this he teaches the top Way leadership that they need to "loosen up" in the sexual category and specifically references the victim who rebuffed him.   

To be quite clear, what dictor meant by "loosen up" was adultery and sexual assault, sometimes drugged.    In modern terms, a white Fundamentalist Bill Cosby.

My sexual assault, at the hands of two women, was followed by me retreating across to my side of the trailer, and burying myself in my top bunk, but awake. Meanwhile, the two women involved told one or two of the corps guys on my side about the "event". For some reason, no doubt partly because they came in after "lights out", they had no idea I was already there, still, silent, and awake. they started talking to the others about it, and somebody said that it was good for me to be loosened up. So quite right about the meaning. No. VPW didn't do anything on that coach invite, just worked away while I snacked on the pastry. I never heard that he went for males like he did for the women.

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Some random thoughts...I remember one time at Indiana campus, LCM visiting and sharing stuff. he was speaking and then paused to pull his sleeve up a bit and reveal a type of jade or sapphire bracelet ( as if showing it off ) I felt nauseous to the point of nearly passing out. I believe it was spiritual, his air of pride and arrogance. I spoke to rev. WGC about it years later and he had had the same experience. Concerning R&R, if it EVER took off seriously, it would go the same way as twi. Not in size but in abuse and sexual deviance. How do I know ? because I know of past actions of some of it's 'leaders'. As Dr. Phil says, past history is a pointer of a persons future behaviour.

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13 hours ago, Allan said:

Some random thoughts...I remember one time at Indiana campus, LCM visiting and sharing stuff. he was speaking and then paused to pull his sleeve up a bit and reveal a type of jade or sapphire bracelet ( as if showing it off ) I felt nauseous to the point of nearly passing out. I believe it was spiritual, his air of pride and arrogance. I spoke to rev. WGC about it years later and he had had the same experience. Concerning R&R, if it EVER took off seriously, it would go the same way as twi. Not in size but in abuse and sexual deviance. How do I know ? because I know of past actions of some of it's 'leaders'. As Dr. Phil says, past history is a pointer of a persons future behaviour.

Past is prologue

There is no new thing under the sun

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Well, the Horneys learned their trade under the "leadership" of LCM; they were Corps Coords at more than one campus.  As did the Stricklands - learned their trade - not ever "leadership."   Why should R&R be different, where the leaders were all modelled on "f--k up leadership"?  (In all senses of f- up.)

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16 hours ago, Allan said:

Concerning R&R, if it EVER took off seriously, it would go the same way as twi. Not in size but in abuse and sexual deviance. How do I know ? because I know of past actions of some of it's 'leaders'.

By that thinking I should still be out stealing bikes and selling drugs.  How incredibly closed-minded and critical! 

Have you even taken a look at what they are doing and how they are doing it?  They do teachings on Sunday nights, and they post those teachings on their web site.  Those that formed the group are scattered around the country.  They keep in touch by an app.

I know very well that many here have had some horrible experiences at the hands of some of them, but do you really insist that they just can't change?  I changed.  I'm one of the most honest people in my state.  But would you condemn me to be a life-long drug dealer?

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1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

By that thinking I should still be out stealing bikes and selling drugs.  How incredibly closed-minded and critical! 

Have you even taken a look at what they are doing and how they are doing it?  They do teachings on Sunday nights, and they post those teachings on their web site.  Those that formed the group are scattered around the country.  They keep in touch by an app.

I know very well that many here have had some horrible experiences at the hands of some of them, but do you really insist that they just can't change?  I changed.  I'm one of the most honest people in my state.  But would you condemn me to be a life-long drug dealer?

How is this not another Way splinter?

Are they working with, or outside of the Christian body around the local areas where they live?  The last I looked their website was still protected by a password.  And they keep in touch by "an app"?????  Is the name of the app secret too?

IMO it really has nothing to do with Ed or Jacque H0rney b1tching me out in the past 30 years ago or anything similar.  Although I interacted with most of the leadership I have not spoken directly with them in many years.  

It's not that they can't change.

It's that there is zero evidence of them evidencing any fruit of change.  The first chapter of I John pretty much sums up what is going on there.  They refuse to dialog with anyone regarding their past, certainly haven't come here and apologize for any they've wronged, and there have been many egregious wrongs.  Their response to us questioning them about past corruption and what they are doing to change it is either "Hi Ralph" or some other such one sentence nonsense talking about whether or not Paul worried about things 30 years old.  

They are moving ahead in exactly the same fashion that they did when they were in the Way.  They just got kicked out of the Way.  And they still don't change.  A group of elites teaching and being in charge and not even answering the questions of the peons that a year ago they were trying to drum up support to have other Coirpse sign their stupid letter.  They still have the same nose-in-the-air elitist attitude that they have had for the past 30 plus years.  I can smell it from third hand accounts of their responses.  I don't even need to talk to them.

Go back and read their soliloquy about how the Corpse needs to be run by a democracy.  Then look at how they are running their splinter.  Not by a democracy.

You are drawing a parallel with your life "going back to stealing bikes and selling drugs".   What you don't see is this group of splinter Pharisees never left their supposed Christian lifestyle of "stealing bikes and selling drugs".  Oh, except they were enjoying a secret swingers club that nobody else could know about or participate in.  After they were born again, ran fellowships, witnessed to people, ran classes, went in the Way Corpse, were leaders, were ordained.   This is not a genuine movement of God.  And if there is some good-hearted honest person in the midst of that cr@pola, then they are getting fooled.  Just like I got fooled by VPW, LCM, RFR not seeing their true colors until much much later.

Nobody is condemning you to living a life as a drug dealer.  But we're not saying you should start a YouTube channel, file a 501c, and splinter off of Jesus body one more time either.  Behind locked doors because you're afraid of criticism.

Cult logic leaves you boxed in between two choices neither of which involves God.

Edited by chockfull
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I think if ALL they did was steal bikes and sell drugs they'd be a lot more redeemable than their sexually charged , adulterous, predatory, deviant lifestyle they succumbed to. It's a well known fact it is virtually impossible for paedophiles and sexual predators to ever change, certainly without chemical or spiritual castration.  

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4 hours ago, Taxidev said:

By that thinking I should still be out stealing bikes and selling drugs.  How incredibly closed-minded and critical! 

Have you even taken a look at what they are doing and how they are doing it?  They do teachings on Sunday nights, and they post those teachings on their web site.  Those that formed the group are scattered around the country.  They keep in touch by an app.

I know very well that many here have had some horrible experiences at the hands of some of them, but do you really insist that they just can't change?  I changed.  I'm one of the most honest people in my state.  But would you condemn me to be a life-long drug dealer?

I think if ALL they did was steal bikes and sell drugs they'd be a lot more redeemable than their sexually charged , adulterous, predatory, deviant lifestyle they succumbed to. It's a well known fact it is virtually impossible for paedophiles and sexual predators to ever change, certainly without chemical or spiritual castration.  

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7 hours ago, Taxidev said:

By that thinking I should still be out stealing bikes and selling drugs.  How incredibly closed-minded and critical! 

Have you even taken a look at what they are doing and how they are doing it?  They do teachings on Sunday nights, and they post those teachings on their web site.  Those that formed the group are scattered around the country.  They keep in touch by an app.

I know very well that many here have had some horrible experiences at the hands of some of them, but do you really insist that they just can't change?  I changed.  I'm one of the most honest people in my state.  But would you condemn me to be a life-long drug dealer?

Two entirely different issues. You are a person, theoretically (and hopefully in a practical way also) endowed with free will and a sense of right and wrong. You choose the direction of your life to a certain degree (you choose how you respond to what life throws at you).

The R and R RailRoad purports to believe it can build something different without changing the underlying concepts it broke away from.

What's that definition of insanity the great physicist (and philosopher) Albert Einstein (may have) articulated? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Though I'm in my 60s, I'm still as curious as I was as a younger man. It's just that now, instead of falling prey to a religious demagogue, I like to study history. If I had a lick of sense when I was actually going to college (graduated with a BS degree in accounting at age 31) I would have pursued a graduate degree in history to develop a broader understanding of humankind.

Well that last paragraph may be rambling but that's how I think and look at the R and R folks. Taxi, I have no doubt on what you describe about the RR folks doing things differently. But the results ultimately (key word, ultimately) will be the same. History repeats itself.

The curious try to understand why things happen the way they do.

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9 hours ago, chockfull said:

Are they working with, or outside of the Christian body around the local areas where they live?

That's a very good question.  And raises a disheartening answer.  From what I understand, they are doing outreach, much like TWI promotes, and inviting people to their own local fellowship.  Hmmm.....

5 hours ago, Allan said:

It's a well known fact it is virtually impossible for paedophiles and sexual predators to ever change

With God all things are possible.  But I can only assume they are being right with God - and we all know what happens when one assumes.

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

History repeats itself.

It does tend to do that, when people ignore what caused it in the first place.  I am hopeful that they won't do that, not for me, but for themselves and new people they meet.  As I have shared elsewhere, I'm not sold out to them, I have none of them on a pedestal, but I am willing to give them a chance to show they have changed.  But, like I have also shared before, they never did me wrong, so it's much easier for me to wait patiently.

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A lot of this behavior reminds me of the "Cargo Cults" that sprung up among the Pacific Islanders in WWII.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm

They have a spiritual story as to why goods were airdropped on the islands during WWII.  If they just keep repeating their behavior, maybe the airdrops will return.

Their savior's name is John Fromm.

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17 hours ago, Taxidev said:

I changed.  I'm one of the most honest people in my state. 

any chance of also being one of the most egotistical?

(which may very well be one of the most - if not the most - difficult vestiges of TWI to either eradicate or cover over...)  

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9 hours ago, Taxidev said:

With God all things are possible.  But I can only assume they are being right with God - and we all know what happens when one assumes.

It does tend to do that, when people ignore what caused it in the first place.  I am hopeful that they won't do that, not for me, but for themselves and new people they meet.  As I have shared elsewhere, I'm not sold out to them, I have none of them on a pedestal, but I am willing to give them a chance to show they have changed.  But, like I have also shared before, they never did me wrong, so it's much easier for me to wait patiently.

Taxi, have you considered that "I can only assume" might really be that you only want to believe

Being human, and pursuant to your acknowledgement that they haven't done you any harm, to what extent have you critically examined sociological factors that might reveal (ahead of the curve, as it were) how long it might take for them to actually repeat the history of the members' four (plus) decades worth of involvement with TWI? 

Just sayin'

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3 hours ago, TLC said:

any chance of also being one of the most egotistical?

Not at all, but thanks for your concern.

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Taxi, have you considered that "I can only assume" might really be that you only want to believe?

Yes I have, and that is definitely it.  I want to so much that I am not passing judgement on them, until they show they are deserving of it now.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

to what extent have you critically examined sociological factors that might reveal (ahead of the curve, as it were) how long it might take for them to actually repeat the history of the members' four (plus) decades worth of involvement with TWI

None whatsoever.

While I understand statistics very well, I also understand that there are the outliers that may or may not be included in those statistics.  Yes, I would like to see them be those outliers.  Time will tell, and I will allow them that time.

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1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

Yes I have, and that is definitely it.  I want to so much that I am not passing judgement on them, until they show they are deserving of it now.

None whatsoever.

While I understand statistics very well, I also understand that there are the outliers that may or may not be included in those statistics.  Yes, I would like to see them be those outliers.  Time will tell, and I will allow them that time.

I appreciate the candor. :knuddel:

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2 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Yes I have, and that is definitely it.  I want to so much that I am not passing judgement on them, until they show they are deserving of it now.

None whatsoever.

While I understand statistics very well, I also understand that there are the outliers that may or may not be included in those statistics.  Yes, I would like to see them be those outliers.  Time will tell, and I will allow them that time.

Taxi, I would not want to get involved in the R&R group.  But, if you do, I hope you enjoy your involvement with it. But, please remember that Lincoln freed the slaves; you can drop-out anytime.

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11 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

But, please remember that Lincoln freed the slaves; you can drop-out anytime.

I appreciate your concern, Grace.  But as I told Rocky, I am not sold out to anyone, and I have none of them on a pedestal. 

God is Who I seek after, His Word is what I have held high, and I will happily walk away from anyone, as I have already done, who demonstrates evil.  For now I listen to their teachings which, so far, is based on the Word.  There has been no manipulation and no subtle messages, both so prevalent in TWI fellowships.

FWI - it took me 18 months to decide to leave TWI completely, which I started considering a good 7 months before being introduced to R&R.  They were just one contributing factor to my decision, as well as GSC, Bullinger, a couple of my friends on FB that were in TWI and had already left on their own, Ernest Martin, Joel Osteen, Ravi Zacharias, and a few local friends who had been involved with TWI also.  I'm not sold out to any of them either.  But I do enjoy reading/listening to what they have to say, and I am thankful for all of them for what they have all shared so willingly.

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21 hours ago, Taxidev said:

I appreciate your concern, Grace.  But as I told Rocky, I am not sold out to anyone, and I have none of them on a pedestal. 

God is Who I seek after, His Word is what I have held high, and I will happily walk away from anyone, as I have already done, who demonstrates evil.  For now I listen to their teachings which, so far, is based on the Word.  There has been no manipulation and no subtle messages, both so prevalent in TWI fellowships.

FWI - it took me 18 months to decide to leave TWI completely, which I started considering a good 7 months before being introduced to R&R.  They were just one contributing factor to my decision, as well as GSC, Bullinger, a couple of my friends on FB that were in TWI and had already left on their own, Ernest Martin, Joel Osteen, Ravi Zacharias, and a few local friends who had been involved with TWI also.  I'm not sold out to any of them either.  But I do enjoy reading/listening to what they have to say, and I am thankful for all of them for what they have all shared so willingly.

It's all good - we all work out our own salvation by obeying God with respect and reverence.  Phil. 2:12

I looked at some of the pictures of the 75th anniversary with people who used to be my friends.  I was never more thankful to not have any attachments to any of them.  I can work out my own salvation without worrying about TWIS, democratic BOD elections, fair assignments, or staying in the BOD's "good graces".  F them.  They are a bunch of incompetent idiots anyway, giving their whole lives to preserve Ralph Waldo Emerson's "foolish consistency".

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