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11 minutes ago, Raf said:

My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed.

The isolationism changed to exclusivity.  Either you're part of the club, or you're not.  And if you're not, then you aren't welcome at anything they do.

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Is that your observation of the New York splinter? Because I see them opening their minds to people who left TWI before, people who left after, and people who have never been associated with New Knoxville.

Conceivable we're both right in part, but I won't pretend to know what the totality of the circumstances would show.

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2 hours ago, Taxidev said:

The isolationism changed to exclusivity.  Either you're part of the club, or you're not.  And if you're not, then you aren't welcome at anything they do.

Taxi, wow!  Are you sure this is a "Christian" group?  Sounds like a group I would do my best to avoid.

 

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5 hours ago, Raf said:

Is that your observation of the New York splinter?

Weren't you referring to TWI?  I thought you were, and that's what my response was about.

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9 hours ago, Raf said:

When we left in 1989, the majority of NYers had a simple position:

Changing the presidency of TWI would no longer be considered a solution because anyone who replaced LCM from within at that point would have been someone who bent the knee -- someone who chose LCM over JC.

It's an interesting take that allowed us to exclude from serious consideration anyone who did not leave at the same time we did (Dubofsky, Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and others all left too soon. Everyone else, too late.

My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed. But at the time, it was an interesting dynamic

Well, anyone who said anything other than "I'm following you blindly, Craig" would have been kicked out at the time- as Lifted Up discovered when he spoke to lcm on the phone and asked him if he was demanding "an oath to follow him blindly," since that's what he sounded like. lcm said flatly that that's what Lifted Up was already doing.  LU corrected his factual error by telling him to kiss his posterior and hanging up immediately.       So, yes,  any "leader" (Way Corps or person in any position)  was, at the time, demanded to swear an oath of loyalty to lcm.  So, any successor after that WOULD have sworn to follow lcm, while those who refused to choose any man were kicked out, along with anyone who gave any answer other than "I swear allegiance to the craig..."  

The other part was interesting.  Having been kept out of the loop of those who left earlier and WHY they did (Ralph, JAL, etc), we had previously thought they had no legitimate reason to jump ship when they did.  After all, if they HAD left for a good reason, we would have been told. After all, we were all interested in the truth, so why would leaders lie to us, or withhold information from us?   (20/20 hindsight)

 

And yes, it softened in different ways for different people over time.  Some just softened it for ex-twi and ONLY for ex-twi.  Others eventually included other Christians, and so on.  I think more of those who became in charge of the splinters tended to be more "ex-twi only" and rank-and-file became more inclusionary of other Christians.   Then again, a few erstwhile leaders made an odd exception to their "ex-twi only" rule- which led directly to the MOMENTUS debacle-  for which JAL never apologized and he still seems to be selling it under-the-table.

 

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3 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Weren't you referring to TWI?  I thought you were, and that's what my response was about.

Rad said he was referring to NY'ers who left. He was referring SPECIFICALLY to NY'ers who left twi in 1988-1989 when lcm drew his line in the sand.  He demanded an oath of loyalty from all the Corps and leaders at every level.  Anyone who gave any other answer (I swear allegiance to Jesus Christ, we ought to follow God rather than men....)  were kicked out of twi and their reputations were attacked.   Since they were kicked out as a unit, it was easy for them to stay in touch and form a group of ex-twi--  especially when most of the state left with them when lcm announce what happened.   About 80% of twi left in that year, more in some areas than others. In NY, AFAIK, it was more than 80%.

 

I'm not checking up on what VF is doing lately, so I don't know who he's associating with or looking into other than ex-twi or twi-approved authors.   If he's really opened his doors, that's probably a good thing. (Unless he ends up starting another "Momentus" debacle or "personal prophecy" or something.)

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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:40 PM, Taxidev said:

Exactly.  And that is what I meant by bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.

 

Absolutely.  Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord.  It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic.  But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.

Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss.  That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.

I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why?  Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that?  Not to give greater honor because of a title?  They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God. 

This is precisely what I saw TWI had become.  It was boring.  And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format.  The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.

Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.

If you lived in a limb home with clergy did you have to stand up every time he/she walked in whatever room you might be in?

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1 hour ago, outandabout said:

If you lived in a limb home with clergy did you have to stand up every time he/she walked in whatever room you might be in?

I never lived with way corps, never wanted to.  I saw early on that they would have been stifling, and I wasn't interested in a restricted lifestyle living by others' rules.

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