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10 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Yes, that's true.  Several of them have made that clear.  But I know quite a few people who have never been in any leadership position at all in TWI that feel the same way.

While I had no insight into any of those things that took place in the past, I did find early on some flaws in what VPW propounded, actual contradictions.  When I raised those points they were dismissed with just a repetition of what was in his books.  That should have been the red flag for me to walk away, but having never experienced a cult, and still appreciative of the teachings in my local twig, I kept on.  But it was already obvious to me that I did NOT want to go in the corps.

My grandmother used to call me thickheaded.  I cannot refute that.  I still have high hopes for them.  What may seem to be coming to their defense is only my expression of those high hopes.  I am more willing than most to give people time and space to change.

But I am convinced of everything you all have shared with me about these folks, and have personally seen only an inkling of it in action - the response to an email to them.  And that response was disappointing.  So, no, I have no dog in the fight, I will walk away from them when I am convinced they are false.

1) based on your own words, even in the same sentence, you indeed have experienced a cult.

2) Grandmothers (and grandfathers) can be very insightful. But if she didn't explain to you how that thickheadedness can cause intellectual dishonesty, she didn't take it far enough.

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On 6/3/2018 at 10:58 AM, Taxidev said:

This could very well be true about them.  But, weren't we all broken wineskins at one time?

While we have all been in denial at one point or another, only Moses as a baby actually floated down de Nile in a basket.

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On 6/3/2018 at 11:58 AM, Taxidev said:

This could very well be true about them.  But, weren't we all broken wineskins at one time?

I am also interested to see their progress, and I will.  Consider me naive, I understand, but I am willing to give them a chance.  Naive, maybe, but I'm not a fool - I have none of them on a pedestal, especially after all that DWBH shared about his personal experiences with them, for which I am incredibly grateful.  He understandably doesn't trust them one bit, and I believe his assessment of them is correct, but I also believe they have the ability to turn around completely.

It's been about a year already that I have been watching them.  Based on all the crap they have lived, I am willing to give them more time.

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...allow me to explain:

I think a lot of folks have figured out that you can’t fix stupid... and there’s no sense in repairing broken wineskins...when I say I moved on - it’s called a learning curve - folks develop skills (like critical thinking ) by learning from their mistakes...

...but those who left TWI and still have a wierwille-centric basis for doctrine and practice are stuck in a vicious circle...they may claim it’s improved - restored - revived - whatever ,like some supposedly learning curve process ...but follow the sequence - the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism...

...from what you’ve already shared about them I think it really illustrates Jesus’ words to a T: you should put NEW wine in NEW wineskins...in other words, start from scratch! New wine is still fermenting and so the expansion of “life” will burst an old hardened and stiff wine skin. I guess putting old wine into old wineskins wouldn’t pose as much a risk - you just keep patching up any leaks that may develop.

Folks might want to figure out for themselves the application of Jesus’ words...for me it was to stop following (or being influenced by) any wierwille-associated doctrine and practice - be it books, teachings, fellowships, and rooting out that subtle mindset too (and really that part is an ongoing process - like peeling an onion...you keep digging deeper and deeper to remove one layer and then discover another layer beneath that... your critical thinking skills do get better over time - like therapy for atrophied muscles)...for me, putting the NEW wine in a NEW wineskin means taking off the wierwille-colored glasses and reading the Bible with an open mind and trying to gather the natural sense of scripture.

 

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...

I am genuinely thrilled for you.  Consider yourself toasted to, with beer or wine, whichever you prefer.

 

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism...

As chockful pointed out in here , "They have accepted no learning centers outside of TWI based doctrine.  They interact with no other Biblical scholars.  They take input from no other Christians, except those that agree to go to their fellowships."  Seems you are both in agreement, and it makes perfect sense to me.

As I responded to him, I hadn't even considered that until moments ago.  The disappointments are beginning to accumulate.

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3 hours ago, Taxidev said:

 

...As chockful pointed out in here , "They have accepted no learning centers outside of TWI based doctrine.  They interact with no other Biblical scholars.  They take input from no other Christians, except those that agree to go to their fellowships."  Seems you are both in agreement, and it makes perfect sense to me.

As I responded to him, I hadn't even considered that until moments ago.  The disappointments are beginning to accumulate.

Hey Taxidev, the fact that disappointments are mounting up is a good sign - so give yourself a lot more credit in the critical thinking department ...after mulling over your post I quoted ( and I was really electrified by your reference to broken wineskins ) I was not addressing anyone in particular - just wanted to use your expression as a springboard for criticizing offshoots of wierwille. So carry on :beer:

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10 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...allow me to explain:

I think a lot of folks have figured out that you can’t fix stupid... and there’s no sense in repairing broken wineskins...when I say I moved on - it’s called a learning curve - folks develop skills (like critical thinking ) by learning from their mistakes...

...but those who left TWI and still have a wierwille-centric basis for doctrine and practice are stuck in a vicious circle...they may claim it’s improved - restored - revived - whatever ,like some supposedly learning curve process ...but follow the sequence - the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism...

...from what you’ve already shared about them I think it really illustrates Jesus’ words to a T: you should put NEW wine in NEW wineskins...in other words, start from scratch! New wine is still fermenting and so the expansion of “life” will burst an old hardened and stiff wine skin. I guess putting old wine into old wineskins wouldn’t pose as much a risk - you just keep patching up any leaks that may develop.

Folks might want to figure out for themselves the application of Jesus’ words...for me it was to stop following (or being influenced by) any wierwille-associated doctrine and practice - be it books, teachings, fellowships, and rooting out that subtle mindset too (and really that part is an ongoing process - like peeling an onion...you keep digging deeper and deeper to remove one layer and then discover another layer beneath that... your critical thinking skills do get better over time - like therapy for atrophied muscles)...for me, putting the NEW wine in a NEW wineskin means taking off the wierwille-colored glasses and reading the Bible with an open mind and trying to gather the natural sense of scripture.

 

T-Bone, :eusa_clap:

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9 hours ago, Taxidev said:

I am genuinely thrilled for you.  Consider yourself toasted to, with beer or wine, whichever you prefer.

 

As chockful pointed out in here , "They have accepted no learning centers outside of TWI based doctrine.  They interact with no other Biblical scholars.  They take input from no other Christians, except those that agree to go to their fellowships."  Seems you are both in agreement, and it makes perfect sense to me.

As I responded to him, I hadn't even considered that until moments ago.  The disappointments are beginning to accumulate.

Taxi, good for you!!  I think you are on "the right path."  Keep going, Honey!  I think you might be recovering from your TWI mindset.

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I watched the entire R&R video. A huge joke. Why were they laughing , I didnt hear anything that was funny. They were and are part of the problem. Just a bunch of ego heads wanting to be in charge and imo wanting to have direct access to ALL the Ways money. They are getting old(so I'm I ) and are probably looking for a huge nest egg. They can go spit and wallow in their crap. This verse describes them > 2nd Peter 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. <  And that is what they are.
 

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I cannot speak for the whole group, but I know at least one of the people in the panel, and I don't see greed/power or monetary gain being the motivation here.

I think it is more of a mid-life crisis type of situation, knowing they have invested the better part of their lives towards an organization that has given them nothing back. Yes, they may have been previously aware of issues, but you don't question leadership in the Way (and you certainly don't discuss them) you just follow orders.

I think we all can relate to knowing about sites like waydale in the 2000s when still with the Way, and and not wanting to know what was on there. It has always been an us vs. them mentality. 

I think they have just had enough of the BS. I agree they are holding their tongue on many things but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. If they had truly fresh thinking and research they would have a much higher chance of success than trying to go back to a baseline of VPW's plagerized material as their foundation. The rabbit hole just goes way too deep, and this is why I left years ago. 

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Welcome, Sugarrush.  When did you leave? 
I know all of them.  And so do others here.  They've had different experiences in TWI but they've all been in leadership positions.  And they all know enough to speak out and condemn the evil that there is in TWI. 

They don't need to "revive and restore" what has caused so much damage in so many lives.  What they do need is to involve themselves in the wider Christian church, that's out there doing and not merely talking about doing.  They need to acknowledge the genuine good work (and "believing") of others, and they need to acknowledge the evils and bad work of TWI, both from its beginning and to this day.

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I think there are a lot of great rank and file people in TWI and even some good leadership.  Let's be honest, we were all mislead.  Looking back on my childhood, you can easily see why LCM was accused of running a cult.  He was basically a dictator.  I listened to a few of the sound clip archives this morning and it literally gave me chills, taking me back to my childhood.  The sad part was, I remember revering him as a kid, much like you would the POTUS if in person.  I can't speak for VPW as that was before my time. 

This is about people not wanting to let go of power.  It is sad, because if things took a different turn, and young vibrant leaders were able to take the reign, things would have the strong possibility of a completely different ministry with a modern approach.  You cannot move forward until the old tainted individuals are removed.  This is the beginning of the end of TWI unless they change, but I know this has already been said a million times.

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15 minutes ago, Sugarrush said:

I think there are a lot of great rank and file people in TWI and even some good leadership.  Let's be honest, we were all mislead.  Looking back on my childhood, you can easily see why LCM was accused of running a cult.  He was basically a dictator.  I listened to a few of the sound clip archives this morning and it literally gave me chills, taking me back to my childhood.  The sad part was, I remember revering him as a kid, much like you would the POTUS if in person.  I can't speak for VPW as that was before my time. 

This is about people not wanting to let go of power.  It is sad, because if things took a different turn, and young vibrant leaders were able to take the reign, things would have the strong possibility of a completely different ministry with a modern approach.  You cannot move forward until the old tainted individuals are removed.  This is the beginning of the end of TWI unless they change, but I know this has already been said a million times.

Well... I can agree with part of what you said. "You cannot move forward until the old tainted individuals are removed..." must be followed by a complete re-examination of the writings upon which the organization was built and the social structure, mores and practices are overhauled.  Only then can positive change occur.

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1 hour ago, Sugarrush said:

I think there are a lot of great rank and file people in TWI and even some good leadership.  Let's be honest, we were all mislead.  Looking back on my childhood, you can easily see why LCM was accused of running a cult.  He was basically a dictator.  I listened to a few of the sound clip archives this morning and it literally gave me chills, taking me back to my childhood.  The sad part was, I remember revering him as a kid, much like you would the POTUS if in person.  I can't speak for VPW as that was before my time. 

This is about people not wanting to let go of power.  It is sad, because if things took a different turn, and young vibrant leaders were able to take the reign, things would have the strong possibility of a completely different ministry with a modern approach.  You cannot move forward until the old tainted individuals are removed.  This is the beginning of the end of TWI unless they change, but I know this has already been said a million times.

Sugar, intresting post.  I don't think the leaders of TWI want to change; why would they?  They have their cake, and they can eat it too.  They enjoy being in the top-tier of a corrupt organization; they sold their souls to reach the top.  In my view, once having reached the top, they will do what they need to do, to stay in power.  If they have to negrate God, they will.  I think TWI has been a corrupt organization since its founding, and will stay so, until it's dieing day. 

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On 9/1/2018 at 1:03 AM, Sugarrush said:

 

"I cannot speak for the whole group, but I know at least one of the people in the panel, and I don't see greed/power or monetary gain being the motivation here.

I think it is more of a mid-life crisis type of situation, knowing they have invested the better part of their lives towards an organization that has given them nothing back."

Hello, Sugarrush.  I don't think that those 2 reasons are exclusive. A mid-life crisis reminds you that you have no  nest egg, and that sends some people to make their own group and start soliciting donations.

"Yes, they may have been previously aware of issues, but you don't question leadership in the Way (and you certainly don't discuss them) you just follow orders."

Actually, most of the people in twi's history DID question leadership, didn't like the answers, and made tracks LONG ago. THOUSANDS of them have posted here, and countless others have lurked here without posting publickly.   The people you mentioned were ok with sticking around, drawing a paycheck, and glossing over problems. Other people spoke up and were escorted off-grounds, or had to leave because they knew they'd be kicked out as soon as they spoke up.  The people you mentioned stuck around through all the public exits, and only jumped ship now when it was financially advantageous to do so.  Those 2 things tell me a lot-their inaction when others acted or left, and the timing of their action NOW.

"I think we all can relate to knowing about sites like waydale in the 2000s when still with the Way, and and not wanting to know what was on there. It has always been an us vs. them mentality. "

And yet, so many people follow/ed the GSC down the decades. With twi keeping secrets from their own membership, the members turned here for news. In fact, twi once insisted that the GSC post a news item for them- since they knew that was the best way to get the news out to their rank-and-file!

"I think they have just had enough of the BS. I agree they are holding their tongue on many things but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. If they had truly fresh thinking and research they would have a much higher chance of success than trying to go back to a baseline of VPW's plagerized material as their foundation. The rabbit hole just goes way too deep, and this is why I left years ago. "

This makes it sound like you get it.

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11 hours ago, Sugarrush said:

I think there are a lot of great rank and file people in TWI and even some good leadership.  Let's be honest, we were all mislead.  Looking back on my childhood, you can easily see why LCM was accused of running a cult.  He was basically a dictator.  I listened to a few of the sound clip archives this morning and it literally gave me chills, taking me back to my childhood.  The sad part was, I remember revering him as a kid, much like you would the POTUS if in person.  I can't speak for VPW as that was before my time. 

This is about people not wanting to let go of power.  It is sad, because if things took a different turn, and young vibrant leaders were able to take the reign, things would have the strong possibility of a completely different ministry with a modern approach.  You cannot move forward until the old tainted individuals are removed.  This is the beginning of the end of TWI unless they change, but I know this has already been said a million times.

You missed living through A LOT.  twi was accused of being a cult mostly due to doctrine, but should fairly have been accused of it based on its practices- which were kept under wraps so outsiders never complained about them.  That was vpw's idea.  He even grandstanded to try to get media attention.   When he found out the main objections were backlash from their position on the Trinity, he attempted to manufacture a media event.  He signed copied of "Jesus Christ is Not God". He left each copy at a church doorstep along with a sign: "Jesus Christ. Not God. Never was, never will be!"  He told insiders that what he was going to leave was a list of the verses calling Jesus "the Son of God."

lcm ran twi like a cult because vpw instructed him to do so. lcm unwittingly documented that in "VP and Me", and we discussed that in the thread "vp and me in wonderland."

twi is corrupt through and through because vpw wanted it that way and designed it that way.  The current power brokers in twi want it that way also. They're just milking the cash cow as long as they can, getting kids educated, getting free labor, getting all expenses covered independent of salary, etc.  Even if someone removed the entire top, the system has no checks-and-balances, and is designed to support one dictator or another.  rivenbark knows this, held power directly as long as she could, and has the current leader under her thumb.  twi has been circling the drain for years, and its end is inevitable.  The powers that be are just "running the clock" and getting what they can.   Frankly, sensible Christians are all better off leaving twi. Lots of Christians attempted to reform it, none succeeded.  It's over-optimism to think that the NEXT group of Christians will fare any better.

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10 hours ago, WordWolf said:

twi is corrupt through and through because vpw wanted it that way and designed it that way. 

Yep.......twi is corrupt through and through because it was set up that way.

Wierwille set in motion a system of deception and unaccountability......even his "trustees" couldn't be trusted with oversight.  For ten years (1957-1967), wierwille *thought* he alone could teach and inspire a following as he taught class after class.  His unconventional style and confrontational tone drove many back to their church pews instead.  And, wierwille threw caution to the wind when he gambled on filming the '67 foundational class and stared into the glaring lights trying to finish his segments before his money ran out and the studio fees / furniture rentals became due.

The youth movement brought the surge of energy and zeal.

Wierwille needed young leaders to advance his agenda.....and Heefner, Doop, Wade and others didn't take a liking to what wierwille offered.  They would soon find the exit doors, having seen the man behind the mask.  Nevertheless, there were the Moneyhands, Lynns, Winegarn-rs, Standag-es, and others who would fall in line and help lead the systematizing of error for others to follow.  To this day, some are STILL staunch "believers of the wierwille-cult" who still have no clue that they were beguiled.

 Everything wierwille set in place was sleight-of-hand........as he utilized buzzwords that had double meanings. 

  • Note:  wierwille never set about to have disciples of Christ.
  • "The Way" was not about Jesus Christ.....it was about wierwille's self-appointment.
  • Double meanings.  Double standards.  Double-crossed.
  • "Word Over the World Ambassadors"......who's "word?"  Vpw's "word."
  • Way Corps..........disciples of wierwille and a corps trained to obey him.
  • Followers of The Way..............indeed, indeed.  Cult followers.
  • Today.......there is NO research department.  Not needed.
  • Today.......there is NO true teaching.  Just regurgitation.
  • Today.......there is NO joyful fellowship.  Only obedience.

Last year, there was another exodus of corps leadership........but the crazy part is that they will NOT denounce wierwille.  This R/R group has been outspoken of Rosalie Rivenbark, but they cannot admit to martindale's depravity and their misguided loyalty to him.  NOPE....because that would then be called into question as to why they stayed the course.  So, they have no interest in discussing the Martindale era.......let alone the Wierwille pyramid and the "slave-foundation."  This R/R group wants to ride on wierwille's coattails of "teaching the word" and having the little people tithe and abundantly share of their hard-earned money.  Same deal, different pew.

After some 18 years of GSC telling "the other side of twi's leaders, organization and agenda"........this last group of corps, who jumped to start their own splinter group, is the most loathsome and disgusting of the bunch.  There is already a charade parade of panderers to the wierhead-cult of complicity. 

 

 

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WordWolf brings up some very important things to keep in mind. From the get-go wierwille tried to distinguish his “ministry” as better than any church or ministry out there. In my humble opinion there was always an underlying double-pronged message in his teachings: that the churches got a lot of it wrong - but not to worry cuz wierwille would show us how to rightly divide “the word” and get us back to true Christianity...however this is perhaps the best trick that he ever pulled off.

I believe anything about Christ in PFAL was almost like window dressing - whether or not wierwille intended it to be that way; I see it as Christ being something like the bait on a hook - the old bait & switch routine. This is evident in practice once you graduated from the class - it was all about following what wierwille said was the true Christian way...the ebb and flow of followers of wierwille / TWI was the rhythmic pattern of old timers getting frustrated and burned out on wierwille’s twisted narcissistic theology and the influx of new suckers fresh out of PFAL.

 

I’ve heard some grads reference Philippians 1 (about some leaders having a different motivation for preaching Christ but at least Christ is preached) as if this somehow justified wierwille’s “ministry” - to which I disagree since it is debatable as to how much of what wierwille preached was even about Christ.

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4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I’ve heard some grads reference Philippians 1 (about some leaders having a different motivation for preaching Christ but at least Christ is preached) as if this somehow justified wierwille’s “ministry” - to which I disagree since it is debatable as to how much of what wierwille preached was even about Christ.

Why yes, of course.  I think we should bring in an expert witness on Biblical motivation to help us sort this out....

 

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As an afterthought there’s something I want to add to the last point of my previous post - of folks referencing Philippians 1 as if to say “don’t be too critical of wierwille’s ministry since Paul wasn’t that harsh on leaders preaching Christ with questionable motives” 

...Perhaps the type of preachers Paul had in mind (just going on the caliber of character that the Bible reveals about him ) were equivalent to some televangelists who want you to send your “seed money “ to them so they can buy a bigger and fancier jet for their ministry. Monetary ripoffs are one thing and when one wises up to the scam it might be easier to bounce back from that than sexual molestation which is probably one of the most  intimate and deeply personal attacks imaginable...

Hey guys, try to develop some empathy here for the women who were victimized...try to imagine how you would feel about all the stuff that wierwille taught you if one day while in the motor coach  he drugged you and then  he fvcked you up the a$$.

 

I could be way off base in saying this but I just can’t imagine a god who is supposed to be loving and benevolent would also be okay with a sexual predator like wierwille molesting select women just because he also preached the gospel. As if it were a numbers game - his sexual  sins / crimes against a small percentage of women was insignificant compared to how many were blessed by his teaching ministry...there’s something so fvcked up by that scale of values !

 

It’s just my opinion, but I get the idea from the parables of the ONE lost coin, the ONE lost sheep, and the ONE prodigal son in Luke 15 - that God is concerned about the INDIVIDUAL and NOT about how many people you get to take some stupid class or even to fill a stadium...if you don’t think each individual is that important to God then consider Mark 9:42  If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a very large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea... 

 

...I believe it’s such a myopic view to have of wierwille’s reprehensible behavior if one thinks that his victimization of women  was no big deal in the grand scheme of things or that (in light of Mark 9:42) there won’t be terrible consequences administered to him for all those he had caused to stumble.

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

As an afterthought there’s something I want to add to the last point of my previous post - of folks referencing Philippians 1 as if to say “don’t be too critical of wierwille’s ministry since Paul wasn’t that harsh on leaders preaching Christ with questionable motives” 

...Perhaps the type of preachers Paul had in mind (just going on the caliber of character that the Bible reveals about him ) were equivalent to some televangelists who want you to send your “seed money “ to them so they can buy a bigger and fancier jet for their ministry. Monetary ripoffs are one thing and when one wises up to the scam it might be easier to bounce back from that than sexual molestation which is probably one of the most  intimate and deeply personal attacks imaginable...

Hey guys, try to develop some empathy here for the women who were victimized...try to imagine how you would feel about all the stuff that wierwille taught you if one day while in the motor coach  he drugged you and then  he fvcked you up the a$$.

 

I could be way off base in saying this but I just can’t imagine a god who is supposed to be loving and benevolent would also be okay with a sexual predator like wierwille molesting select women just because he also preached the gospel. As if it were a numbers game - his sexual  sins / crimes against a small percentage of women was insignificant compared to how many were blessed by his teaching ministry...there’s something so fvcked up by that scale of values !

 

It’s just my opinion, but I get the idea from the parables of the ONE lost coin, the ONE lost sheep, and the ONE prodigal son in Luke 15 - that God is concerned about the INDIVIDUAL and NOT about how many people you get to take some stupid class or even to fill a stadium...if you don’t think each individual is that important to God then consider Mark 9:42  If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a very large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea... 

 

...I believe it’s such a myopic view to have of wierwille’s reprehensible behavior if one thinks that his victimization of women  was no big deal in the grand scheme of things or that (in light of Mark 9:42) there won’t be terrible consequences administered to him for all those he had caused to stumble.

T-Bone, OMG!!  Your post is so good; it reminds me why I am here at the GSC. TWI thinks that VPW was a great MOG; but many of us know he was a sick, sleazy Con-Man who was not a MOG; in fact he would be in Prison today, if he was still alive.  Thanks for your post T-Bone. 

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20 hours ago, WordWolf said:

A mid-life crisis reminds you that you have no  nest egg, and that sends some people to make their own group and start soliciting donations.

They still haven't done this.

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On 9/3/2018 at 10:01 PM, Taxidev said:

They still haven't done this.

Just a thought.  Anyone who has been in twi for any length of time is so programmed that they need to ABS that no one would really need to solicit donations, they would automatically give. 

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9 hours ago, penguin2 said:

they would automatically give

You are correct.  And that is exactly what happened - people wanted to give.  But the R&R group responded, in no uncertain terms, that people were NOT to give to them.  I know, unexpected.  The people had to find other places to give, and other people to serve.  I've been watching them since May 2017 and they haven't modified this position.

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