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11 minutes ago, Raf said:

My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed.

The isolationism changed to exclusivity.  Either you're part of the club, or you're not.  And if you're not, then you aren't welcome at anything they do.

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Is that your observation of the New York splinter? Because I see them opening their minds to people who left TWI before, people who left after, and people who have never been associated with New Knoxville.

Conceivable we're both right in part, but I won't pretend to know what the totality of the circumstances would show.

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2 hours ago, Taxidev said:

The isolationism changed to exclusivity.  Either you're part of the club, or you're not.  And if you're not, then you aren't welcome at anything they do.

Taxi, wow!  Are you sure this is a "Christian" group?  Sounds like a group I would do my best to avoid.

 

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5 hours ago, Raf said:

Is that your observation of the New York splinter?

Weren't you referring to TWI?  I thought you were, and that's what my response was about.

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9 hours ago, Raf said:

When we left in 1989, the majority of NYers had a simple position:

Changing the presidency of TWI would no longer be considered a solution because anyone who replaced LCM from within at that point would have been someone who bent the knee -- someone who chose LCM over JC.

It's an interesting take that allowed us to exclude from serious consideration anyone who did not leave at the same time we did (Dubofsky, Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and others all left too soon. Everyone else, too late.

My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed. But at the time, it was an interesting dynamic

Well, anyone who said anything other than "I'm following you blindly, Craig" would have been kicked out at the time- as Lifted Up discovered when he spoke to lcm on the phone and asked him if he was demanding "an oath to follow him blindly," since that's what he sounded like. lcm said flatly that that's what Lifted Up was already doing.  LU corrected his factual error by telling him to kiss his posterior and hanging up immediately.       So, yes,  any "leader" (Way Corps or person in any position)  was, at the time, demanded to swear an oath of loyalty to lcm.  So, any successor after that WOULD have sworn to follow lcm, while those who refused to choose any man were kicked out, along with anyone who gave any answer other than "I swear allegiance to the craig..."  

The other part was interesting.  Having been kept out of the loop of those who left earlier and WHY they did (Ralph, JAL, etc), we had previously thought they had no legitimate reason to jump ship when they did.  After all, if they HAD left for a good reason, we would have been told. After all, we were all interested in the truth, so why would leaders lie to us, or withhold information from us?   (20/20 hindsight)

 

And yes, it softened in different ways for different people over time.  Some just softened it for ex-twi and ONLY for ex-twi.  Others eventually included other Christians, and so on.  I think more of those who became in charge of the splinters tended to be more "ex-twi only" and rank-and-file became more inclusionary of other Christians.   Then again, a few erstwhile leaders made an odd exception to their "ex-twi only" rule- which led directly to the MOMENTUS debacle-  for which JAL never apologized and he still seems to be selling it under-the-table.

 

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3 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Weren't you referring to TWI?  I thought you were, and that's what my response was about.

Rad said he was referring to NY'ers who left. He was referring SPECIFICALLY to NY'ers who left twi in 1988-1989 when lcm drew his line in the sand.  He demanded an oath of loyalty from all the Corps and leaders at every level.  Anyone who gave any other answer (I swear allegiance to Jesus Christ, we ought to follow God rather than men....)  were kicked out of twi and their reputations were attacked.   Since they were kicked out as a unit, it was easy for them to stay in touch and form a group of ex-twi--  especially when most of the state left with them when lcm announce what happened.   About 80% of twi left in that year, more in some areas than others. In NY, AFAIK, it was more than 80%.

 

I'm not checking up on what VF is doing lately, so I don't know who he's associating with or looking into other than ex-twi or twi-approved authors.   If he's really opened his doors, that's probably a good thing. (Unless he ends up starting another "Momentus" debacle or "personal prophecy" or something.)

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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:40 PM, Taxidev said:

Exactly.  And that is what I meant by bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.

 

Absolutely.  Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord.  It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic.  But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.

Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss.  That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.

I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why?  Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that?  Not to give greater honor because of a title?  They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God. 

This is precisely what I saw TWI had become.  It was boring.  And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format.  The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.

Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.

If you lived in a limb home with clergy did you have to stand up every time he/she walked in whatever room you might be in?

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1 hour ago, outandabout said:

If you lived in a limb home with clergy did you have to stand up every time he/she walked in whatever room you might be in?

I never lived with way corps, never wanted to.  I saw early on that they would have been stifling, and I wasn't interested in a restricted lifestyle living by others' rules.

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Alright everyone, I have an update on the progress of the R&R group.

After becoming aware of them in May of 2017, and following their progress from a disorganized group to a somewhat organized group, I have reached the conclusion that what several of you have said is correct along these points:

There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group.  And they are tightly knit.

There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle.

They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception.

There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all.

While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction.  My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching.

I had stated clearly before that I was keeping them at arm's length, and now I see they have nothing to offer me.  Going forward I will have nothing to add because I am no longer following them at all.

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17 minutes ago, Taxidev said:

Alright everyone, I have an update on the progress of the R&R group.

After becoming aware of them in May of 2017, and following their progress from a disorganized group to a somewhat organized group, I have reached the conclusion that what several of you have said is correct along these points:

There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group.  And they are tightly knit.

There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle.

They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception.

There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all.

While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction.  My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching.

I had stated clearly before that I was keeping them at arm's length, and now I see they have nothing to offer me.  Going forward I will have nothing to add because I am no longer following them at all.

Ok, let's see.  These people have said a lot of things that sound like sound teaching. Then again, so did vpw, and he was plagiarizing and considered the twi budget to be his own piggy bank. (And made merchandise of the people, and so on...)    They set up the name and website for the ex-twi group while announcing they wanted to try to reform twi, and set up the new group while in twi. (Which is what vpw did- he had his twi original group going for years while he was on the church payroll before he resigned his pastorage.)   What else do we have here, among all of the "talking a good game?"

"There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group.  And they are tightly knit."

Welcome back to the us-and-them. The cadre runs the show, everyone else is second-tier or lower, and has neither voice nor vote on anything.

"There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle. "

There's a token presence of others, otherwise there's a tier of teachers and that's that.If that was all, it wouldn't be that bad. But it is NOT all...

"They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception. "

All hail the plagiarizing rapist!  He claimed to hear from God while ripping all his material off other Christians- but surely he actually got it all from God.  He claimed to have had a Special Connection to God, and he would never have lied about that- we have his assurances he was legit!  Let's pretend he really heard from God in 1942 as he claimed almost 30 years later!

" There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all. "

There are the insiders, and there's all you jerks. All you jerks need to listen, support the group, buy their stuff, and pay 10% of your income. In return, be thankful they are teaching and selling and keep your fool mouth shut! You have a subject you want to hear taught? Tough! They teach what they want and are not accountable to you as a whole.

"While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction.  My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching."

Like tens of thousands of Christians in the US, they can do some good teachings.  In the process, they're more concerned about showing off than someone getting something when they listen. Edification? No, self-aggrandizement.

Congratulations!  You had the nerve to look behind the curtain, and didn't ignore the man you saw there. You gave them a close look, and saw that they talked a good game, but have nothing to offer you but nostalgia for "the good old days" of twi- which weren't as "good" as we were led to believe.  There's plenty of other Christians out there. Many are far better and healthier to associate with.  The insular "ex-twi only" system is self-limiting, and can't go much beyond the best performances in old twi days.  That's pretty much something they used to criticize churches for at the time- limiting Christians by locking the doctrine.

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28 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Ok, let's see.  These people have said a lot of things that sound like sound teaching. Then again, so did vpw, and he was plagiarizing and considered the twi budget to be his own piggy bank. (And made merchandise of the people, and so on...)    They set up the name and website for the ex-twi group while announcing they wanted to try to reform twi, and set up the new group while in twi. (Which is what vpw did- he had his twi original group going for years while he was on the church payroll before he resigned his pastorage.)   What else do we have here, among all of the "talking a good game?"

"There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group.  And they are tightly knit."

Welcome back to the us-and-them. The cadre runs the show, everyone else is second-tier or lower, and has neither voice nor vote on anything.

"There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle. "

There's a token presence of others, otherwise there's a tier of teachers and that's that.If that was all, it wouldn't be that bad. But it is NOT all...

"They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception. "

All hail the plagiarizing rapist!  He claimed to hear from God while ripping all his material off other Christians- but surely he actually got it all from God.  He claimed to have had a Special Connection to God, and he would never have lied about that- we have his assurances he was legit!  Let's pretend he really heard from God in 1942 as he claimed almost 30 years later!

" There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all. "

There are the insiders, and there's all you jerks. All you jerks need to listen, support the group, buy their stuff, and pay 10% of your income. In return, be thankful they are teaching and selling and keep your fool mouth shut! You have a subject you want to hear taught? Tough! They teach what they want and are not accountable to you as a whole.

"While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction.  My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching."

Like tens of thousands of Christians in the US, they can do some good teachings.  In the process, they're more concerned about showing off than someone getting something when they listen. Edification? No, self-aggrandizement.

Congratulations!  You had the nerve to look behind the curtain, and didn't ignore the man you saw there. You gave them a close look, and saw that they talked a good game, but have nothing to offer you but nostalgia for "the good old days" of twi- which weren't as "good" as we were led to believe.  There's plenty of other Christians out there. Many are far better and healthier to associate with.  The insular "ex-twi only" system is self-limiting, and can't go much beyond the best performances in old twi days.  That's pretty much something they used to criticize churches for at the time- limiting Christians by locking the doctrine.

Kudos for the reflections both by Taxidev and Wordwolf.

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5 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Alright everyone, I have an update on the progress of the R&R group.

After becoming aware of them in May of 2017, and following their progress from a disorganized group to a somewhat organized group, I have reached the conclusion that what several of you have said is correct along these points:

There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group.  And they are tightly knit.

There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle.

They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception.

There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all.

While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction.  My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching.

I had stated clearly before that I was keeping them at arm's length, and now I see they have nothing to offer me.  Going forward I will have nothing to add because I am no longer following them at all.

Taxi, good for you!!

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Well done, TaxiDev.  You took a thorough look and found it was just another flavor of Kool-Aid.

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On 10/11/2018 at 3:12 PM, Taxidev said:

The isolationism changed to exclusivity.  Either you're part of the club, or you're not.  And if you're not, then you aren't welcome at anything they do.

Taxi, I understand what you said, but that seems rather unchristian to me.  I know when I used to attend Church in Bethesda, I always felt that I was an important part of the congregation.  People were encouraged to bring their friends, and families to services, and get togethers.  But, I am not a member of the R&R group, nor will I be.  Perhaps I am more missing something, but it sounds to me, as if the group isn't interested in outsiders.  They want to do their thing, and not be bothered by outside influences.

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23 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Taxi, I understand what you said, but that seems rather unchristian to me.  I know when I used to attend Church in Bethesda, I always felt that I was an important part of the congregation.  People were encouraged to bring their friends, and families to services, and get togethers.  But, I am not a member of the R&R group, nor will I be.  Perhaps I am more missing something, but it sounds to me, as if the group isn't interested in outsiders.  They want to do their thing, and not be bothered by outside influences.

If they recruit outsiders, they introduce outside ideas. If they introduce outside ideas, they can't control what people think.  If they can't control what people think, they can't convince them to consistently hand over 10% of their income.

In other words, yes, they want to do their thing- and that includes the money- and remain free of variables they can't control.

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23 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

If they recruit outsiders, they introduce outside ideas. If they introduce outside ideas, they can't control what people think.  If they can't control what people think, they can't convince them to consistently hand over 10% of their income.

In other words, yes, they want to do their thing- and that includes the money- and remain free of variables they can't control.

WW, bingo!!  

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Control is at stake. On that topic, check out an excellent video on the topic of "undue influence." It's the second "story" on the home page of the International Cultic Studies Association. "Undue influence" is a term that describes the overreaching control that cultic groups exert over members. Description on website: "This talk will explain how the legal concept of undue influence, which has existed for centuries, can be helpful to former members of cultic groups today. Judges have hesitated or refused to hear testimony about brainwashing, mind control, and thought reform on the grounds, that, in their opinion, these concepts lack scientific validity. How can expert witnesses be more persuasive in court? What will help bring clever influencers to justice? The discussion will focus on how the undue influence concept can be updated and applied to cultic relationships, human trafficking, domestic violence, and other influence situations."
https://www.icsahome.com/

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9 hours ago, penworks said:

Control is at stake. On that topic, check out an excellent video on the topic of "undue influence." It's the second "story" on the home page of the International Cultic Studies Association. "Undue influence" is a term that describes the overreaching control that cultic groups exert over members. Description on website: "This talk will explain how the legal concept of undue influence, which has existed for centuries, can be helpful to former members of cultic groups today. Judges have hesitated or refused to hear testimony about brainwashing, mind control, and thought reform on the grounds, that, in their opinion, these concepts lack scientific validity. How can expert witnesses be more persuasive in court? What will help bring clever influencers to justice? The discussion will focus on how the undue influence concept can be updated and applied to cultic relationships, human trafficking, domestic violence, and other influence situations."
https://www.icsahome.com/

If you're in a hurry, you might want to check back later.  The video is 38 minutes and 14 seconds long.

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On 3/20/2019 at 4:58 PM, penworks said:

Control is at stake. On that topic, check out an excellent video on the topic of "undue influence." It's the second "story" on the home page of the International Cultic Studies Association. "Undue influence" is a term that describes the overreaching control that cultic groups exert over members. Description on website: "This talk will explain how the legal concept of undue influence, which has existed for centuries, can be helpful to former members of cultic groups today. Judges have hesitated or refused to hear testimony about brainwashing, mind control, and thought reform on the grounds, that, in their opinion, these concepts lack scientific validity. How can expert witnesses be more persuasive in court? What will help bring clever influencers to justice? The discussion will focus on how the undue influence concept can be updated and applied to cultic relationships, human trafficking, domestic violence, and other influence situations."
https://www.icsahome.com/

Very good information here Penworks. Abuses within these special relationships appear to be rampant these days.

If a family member didn't have 27 years of medical experience, several mistakes by PCPs and Hospitalists that were caught by this family member would have killed my mother. It seems once one hits 90 in our modern system , a common phrases starts popping up: "her body is shutting down" and "you should consider Hospice"...although her blood work and vitals suggest otherwise. 

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On 3/19/2019 at 2:15 AM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Perhaps I am more missing something, but it sounds to me, as if the group isn't interested in outsiders.  They want to do their thing, and not be bothered by outside influences.

Grace, it seems you think I'm referring to the R&R group, but my statement was in reference to TWI.

On 3/20/2019 at 1:54 AM, WordWolf said:

If they recruit outsiders, they introduce outside ideas. If they introduce outside ideas, they can't control what people think.  If they can't control what people think, they can't convince them to consistently hand over 10% of their income.

In other words, yes, they want to do their thing- and that includes the money- and remain free of variables they can't control.

WW, even though I'm not truly following the R&R group, they still haven't asked anyone for any money.  However, just this evening I took a look at their web site to see what's been happening over the last few months.  And, surprisingly, it no longer requires a password.  I'm pretty sure my browsers aren't storing the password - I tried Firefox and Chrome - but just to make sure, maybe someone here would like to test it.  Here's the link:

https://revivalandrestoration.org/teachings

 

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1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

Grace, it seems you think I'm referring to the R&R group, but my statement was in reference to TWI.

WW, even though I'm not truly following the R&R group, they still haven't asked anyone for any money.  However, just this evening I took a look at their web site to see what's been happening over the last few months.  And, surprisingly, it no longer requires a password.  I'm pretty sure my browsers aren't storing the password - I tried Firefox and Chrome - but just to make sure, maybe someone here would like to test it.  Here's the link:

https://revivalandrestoration.org/teachings

 

Taxidev,

Right. You can get access to the posted teachings without a password. 

But if you think they're not asking for money, you're not paying attention.

Some of the teachings have audio right on the page. However, for Rico, it gives a phone number and access code. Did you listen to his teaching on Obedience to the Household of Faith?

WTF do you think that might be about? 

The issue of money and the R&R group has been discussed since you last posted that they weren't asking for any.

Didn't someone find something about charging for classes?

Edited by Rocky

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I just tried to listen to Rico's teaching on obedience to the household. The computerized voice told me it was an invalid access code.

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I then tried to dial in to Rico's teaching on "God and His Word are Right." Also got "invalid access code."

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