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Plagiarism on the road to success

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Stealing only has meaning in the marketplace and the academy. Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common.  Usually in our culture we don't allow this for many things, but for the teaching of the Word in rural farmland churches it was allowed. I don't believe it was stealing. This  was not the marketplace and not the academy.  How many times and ways do you want me to say that?

Edited by Mike

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3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Stealing only has meaning in the marketplace and the academy. Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common.  Usually in our culture we don't allow this for many things, but for the teaching of the Word in rural farmland churches it was allowed. I don't believe it was stealing. This  was not the marketplace and not the academy.  How many times and ways do you want me to say that?

Are you describing contrasting economic systems... perhaps socialism vs capitalism?

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Btw, Socrates, I think Mike is correct that you restated his "C" point in different words than he used, but it's the same concept.

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12 minutes ago, Mike said:

Stealing only has meaning in the marketplace and the academy. Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common.  Usually in our culture we don't allow this, but for the teaching of the Word in rural farmland churches it was allowed. I don't believe it was stealing. This  was not the marketplace and not the academy.  How many times and ways do you want me to say that?

'Fraid that's not how it works in the bible.

Jesus Christ said doing something in your heart is worst than doing it physically.

And where is your heart? 

Since you have to think about things in order for them to sink into your heart, the heart is in your mind, your intellect.

So theft of intellectual property is worst than theft of physical property

Edited by So_crates

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Well, ya see, guys, here's how it works...Stealing a car is illegal. If you get caught, ya got big problems. BUT (the obligatory big but) if you are stealing the car so you can get to the PFAL class, it's okay. Just ask any judge. They'll tell ya.

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9 hours ago, Mike said:

 Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common.

Once again your  falls flat.

Let him that steals, steal no more. (Eph 4:28)

Therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? (Rom 2:21)

That suggests its possible to steal within God's family. Why else would God make it a commandment and have Paul repeat it?

Quote

   I don't believe it was stealing.

Again, your not the standard. What God says is. 

Edited by So_crates

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9 hours ago, Mike said:

Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common. 

Ask anyone who was in FellowLaborers how that works out. I'll give you three guesses. The first two don't count.

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10 hours ago, Mike said:

Stealing only has meaning in the marketplace and the academy. Within God's family, it's share and share alike, all things common.  Usually in our culture we don't allow this for many things, but for the teaching of the Word in rural farmland churches it was allowed. I don't believe it was stealing. This  was not the marketplace and not the academy.  How many times and ways do you want me to say that?

Mike, I think you’re just talking through your hat...can you provide chapter and verse that shows the prohibition to steal (which by the way, is one of the 10 commandments- way back there in Exodus 20:15) being suspended if and when a thieving believer declares “share and share alike” ?

for that matter, can you provide chapter and verse that says in God’s Family it’s share and share alike?

I don’t buy your argument...makes no sense to me as I’m thinking of the community of believers in both the Old and New Testament times / cultures.

if you read the accounts in Acts (Acts 4 & 5) that touch on this - you’ll find that giving / sharing was not obligatory, that folks still had property rights - and even if they sold their property it was their own prerogative as to what to do with the money from the sale.... wealth was not redistributed as in communism or socialism - but funds collected were given to those IN NEED.

Edited by T-Bone

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Question:

Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?

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17 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

Question:

Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?

A couple of things:

1). Do you know if there are any document that show any the original authors granting Saint Vic permission to use the texts he stole?

2). Sometime back, on my way home I was mugged. The mugger only got $5, so I didn't bother filing a police report. Does that mean I wasn't mugged?

3). "Soup is soup, apple butter is apple butter" and stealing someone's work is stealing someone's work.

Edited by So_crates

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18 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

Question:

Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?

As I recall, B.G. Leonard was none too pleased with the copying of his work, though I don't think he pursued any formal, legal action aside from copyrighting his own works after that as a result.

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Thank you WaySider

Copyright Law is very complex, and copyright lawsuits complicated, I won't try to detail it here because it would consume too much forum electronic storage space, which costs money.  There is plenty of information already easily and freely available on the subject

But to summarize, if B.G. Leonard, or any of the other authors that the "Doctor" is accused of plagiarizing, did not formally or legally contest the plagiarism (some may not even have been aware of it), it does not necessarily mean that they gave permission for it to be plagiarized of course, and it does not make the plagiarism legal or lawful.

If anyone has any documents showing that plagiarized authors either gave permission or contested the plagiarism, I would appreciate very much information as to where to see them.

That anything stolen whether by plagiarism or mugging is stolen is an axiom, an obvious truth that does not have to be explained.

But if the original author does not contest plagiarism (documents, anyone?), or if the muggee does not contest a mugging, both the plagiarism and the mugging victims are making a statement.

In one case, the statement may be, it wasn't worth my time for $5.

In the other case, the statement may be "I don't want to waste time on that, I have more important things to do."

Or could it have been that the plagiarism increased the sales of publications by B.G. Leonard, and he was happy about it but told no one?  I do not know.

Or that B.G. Leonard was glad that his ideas were spread at someone else's expense.

Or that he was flattered, as in the axiom "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  I don't know.

The possibilities are endless.

Thus, in search of documented information, not in search of criticism of my question, I ask my valid question again, hopefully to receive proper replies:

"Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?"

I would appreciate any straight answers to my question as opposed to criticisms of my question.

I have never combined soup and apple butter together to see how they taste, but if I did, I would probably just call it soup and apple butter.

I did put a little ketchup on some chocolate ice cream once just out of curiousity as to how it might taste, and was actually pleasantly suprised at the tangy zing that the small amount of ketchup added to the chocoloate ice cream, which I called:

Chocolate ice cream with a little bit of ketchup.

Edited by GoldStar

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12 hours ago, Rocky said:

Are you describing contrasting economic systems... perhaps socialism vs capitalism?

No.  The I'm describing the two places where plagiarism matters.

First place is the big book publishers and bookstores and the authors. The US Constitution makes  special note of importance of intellectual ideas in this marketplace. Ditto with inventions. Here plagiarism means interfering with the market. It's like shoplifting or worse.

The second place is academia where degrees and grades matter. Plagiarism undercuts the whole process.

Our entire society rest on these two pillars, among others.

I think all of the GreaseSpot arguments are valid for matters within these two major institutions.

What VPW engaged in was never within these two institutions, though he had aspirations there. TWI never quite made it. In the early days it was VERY far from. It was a rural farmer country church family. Plagiarism doesn't matter there. What matters is the people get fed the Word.

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4 hours ago, waysider said:

Ask anyone who was in FellowLaborers how that works out. I'll give you three guesses. The first two don't count.

I agree. I found that hardly anyone took the "all things common" idea seriously.  I was a little shocked at how far some were from thinking that way. I totally agree with you.

But I was referring to 1940s and 1950s rural Ohio churchy people. I think they did it with books and pamphlets and things like that. That's my strong impression from all the history I've heard.

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4 hours ago, waysider said:

As I recall, B.G. Leonard was none too pleased with the copying of his work, though I don't think he pursued any formal, legal action aside from copyrighting his own works after that as a result.

I heard that BG came personally to the 1986 or 87 ROA and was very angry that TWI taught that SIT was not a gift.

This was pretty well known, but got lost in the POP and all.

Edited by Mike

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3 hours ago, GoldStar said:

would appreciate any straight answers to my question as opposed to criticisms of my question.

So, in all your travels you've never encountered the Socratic method of arriving at the truth?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

3 hours ago, GoldStar said:

I have never combined soup and apple butter together to see how they taste, but if I did, I would probably just call it soup and apple butter.

I did put a little ketchup on some chocolate ice cream once just out of curiousity as to how it might taste, and was actually pleasantly suprised at the tangy zing that the small amount of ketchup added to the chocoloate ice cream, which I called:

Chocolate ice cream with a little bit of ketchup.

And, naturally, getting straight answers is so important to you that you respond with a sarcastic answer like the one above.

 

3 hours ago, GoldStar said:

But if the original author does not contest plagiarism (documents, anyone?), or if the muggee does not contest a mugging, both the plagiarism and the mugging victims are making a statement.

Your error here has negated everything Christ came to do.

How?

God works in absolutes, you've absolutely obeyed the law or you didn't. You absolutely stole or you didn't.

Anything less and Christ could have used that loophole to get out of having to fulfill the Law.

Christ for example could have stolen all the silver from the tabernacle. "Well, all things belong to God and I'm the son of God, so its not really stealing..."

Or to use  your loophole, all Christ had to do was pick people who would not report his disobedience of the law to the authorities.

Edited by So_crates
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- Yes I am very familiar with the Socratic method

- And haven't you ever heard of Socratic Sarcasm ?

- Your claims of errors provide no proofs just allegations

- As your beloved Socrates said:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

- It is up to me if I wish to or not to spend time addressing every attack towards me

- I spend time addressing the most important things

- I choose my battles wisely

- You may or may choose to do so, and your mileage may vary

- If you care to engage me in mutually-profitable debate, you will need to do so carefully

- Not by sloppily slinging handfuls of mud in my direction or making ridiculous statements

- for example your statement that I have negated everything that Christ came to do

- if I had that kind of power (which I assure you that I do not, contrary to your implication that I do)

- I assure you that I would use that power for something much more beneficial than negating everything Christ came to do

- I would use that power to help improve your communication skills

 

Edited by GoldStar

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11 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- Yes I am very familiar with the Socratic method

- And haven't you ever heard of Socratic Sarcasm ?

Oh, you mean that bit you did that looked like sarcasm? You apparently need more practice.

Quote

- Your claims of errors provide no proofs just allegations

What pray tell do you think the quote above the claim of errors was for? Decoration?

Quote

- As your beloved Socrates said:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

You mean like the slander your attempting to dish out now? 

Quote

- It is up to me if I wish to or not to spend time addressing every attack towards me

- I spend time addressing the most important things

- I choose my battles wisely

Yah, I can see that. 

You mean when you don't have a response you divert and change the subject. Like now.

I notice you have no answer for the God works in absolutes argument.

Quote

- You may or may choose to do so, and your mileage may vary

- If you care to engage me in mutually-profitable debate, you will need to do so carefully

- Not by sloppily slinging handfuls of mud in my direction or making ridiculous arguments

Well, you want one at a time, don't present so many errors in your reasoning.

Your milage may vary.

Edited by So_crates

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2 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- My mileage most likely varies because I drive vehicles with internal combustion engines

- Not external combustion engines like yours

What was that you were saying about slander being the tool of the loser?

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1 minute ago, GoldStar said:

- Please go find someone else to harass

Your the one that started insulting. What was that about choosing battles wisely.

Perhaps you should find someone else to harass.

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- I am asking you very nicely to leave me alone

- I do not like your tone or comments or aggressive behavior and making false statements about me

- I do not wish to hold a conversation with you

- Just leave me alone

Edited by GoldStar

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44 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- Yes I am very familiar with the Socratic method

- And haven't you ever heard of Socratic Sarcasm ?

- Your claims of errors provide no proofs just allegations

- As your beloved Socrates said:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

- It is up to me if I wish to or not to spend time addressing every attack towards me

- I spend time addressing the most important things

- I choose my battles wisely

- You may or may choose to do so, and your mileage may vary

- If you care to engage me in mutually-profitable debate, you will need to do so carefully

- Not by sloppily slinging handfuls of mud in my direction or making ridiculous statements

- for example your statement that I have negated everything that Christ came to do

- if I had that kind of power (which I assure you that I do not, contrary to your implication that I do)

- I assure you that I would use that power for something much more beneficial than negating everything Christ came to do

- I would use that power to help improve your communication skills

 

Do you now? How special. :rolleyes:

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12 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- I am asking you very nicely to leave me alone

- I do not like your tone or comments or aggressive behavior and making false statements about me

- I do not wish to hold a conversation with you

- Just leave me alone

I'm pretty sure that's not how forums work. In fact, that sounds like bullying passive-aggressively framed as politeness.

What really is the way you can choose not to be a victim? Hint: it's not to try to control other people's behavior.

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