I have a very different opinion than yours, and most here, as to what constitutes intellectual ownership.
Not long ago, my brother was always late. After waiting a couple of time for hime for a few hours, I told him: "Be as late as you want, but if your beyond 15 minutes, don't expect me to be waiting.
His response was like yours: "You don't understand. I don't percieve time the way you do."
My response: "Try driving down the wrong side of the road, then when the cop pulls you over, tell him you don't percieve driving the way he does."
Your opinion, my opinion, makes no difference. The law states who intellectual property belongs to.
Quote
Discuss a little.
I’ll wait.
Ok, now add to that angle, the tremendous complication of God being an owner of some intellectual property.Food for deep thought.
So your excuse is God owns all intellectual property. God also owns everything on earth, too. Does that give me the right to rob someone? To steal someones car?
If God owns everything, then why Thou shall not steal?
Sounds like a lot of rationalization to make Saint Vic's robbery legitimate.
Ok, now add to that angle, the tremendous complication of God being an owner of some intellectual property.Food for deep thought.
It's not food for deep thought, Mike. Anyone with a reasonable amount of education understands the essence of intellectual property and plagiarism. Choosing to ignore what you know to be factual does not make it any less true.
Let's boil the cabbage down, shall we? Wierwille plagiarized a whole bunch of materials that had been previously produced by other writers. That's not only illegal, it's unbiblical. You know, that whole thing about not stealing and such. Such a pesky little detail. It just seems to get in the way so often. But, wait, there's more. Then he lied about his sources, said God must have given the materials to him because he had already taken all his own copies to the dump. He said God promised to teach him information that hadn't been known for 2,000 years, even though most of it had, in fact, been known. See how that darned bible keeps getting in the way? All that nonsense about not lying. I mean, how inconvenient is that?
But that's O.K., Mike. Just change the subject and dance around with fanciful data that doesn't exist. Maybe nobody will notice the diversion.
Hey, I just happened to have an interesting thought. Maybe YOU could write the book . Be sure to copyrite it, though. Or, better yet, maybe you could put it straight into public domain. That would eliminate the problem of plagiarism and theft of intellectual property. Be sure to include some surveys and polls. That always spices things up.
I'm all in favor of the rule of law protecting both the marketplace and the academic institutions with patents and copyrights. I've posted much on this. In addition to this I also see a higher complication, also heavily posted, but worth repeating, when God is the owner of some piece of intellectual property. The devil owns all the rest.
If God gives a revelation to BG Leonard it's really a loan. God still owns it, even though BG gets a copyright on it.
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL and then sort through the material and use some of it, that's God's right. If you read the very short and very interesting "Introduction to the Appendixes" to RHST we were given some profound words on this topic there.
I realize it's pretty dicey when man's law comes in conflict with God's. This is what the classical notion of Civil Disobedience is all about.
If it's REALLY God's property, and VPW retrieves it for God's further uses from BGL, Bullinger, Keynon, Styles, then VPW can expect God to protect him from harsh consequences if man's law gets in the way. It seems that happened. I used this EXACT type of protection 30 years ago when I told Howard Allen that we in San Diego had a plenty of copies of the class here in 1988.
If I were to write the book, I'd not copyright it maybe, unless I needed to to protect it from being altered. Maybe I could write it on a discussion forum in public, and the web WayBack machine will keep my originals protected. Hmmm. I'll have to ponder that. That would save a lot of copyright paperwork. I hate filling out forms.
So your excuse is God owns all intellectual property. God also owns everything on earth, too.
No. I did not write that at all. You just didn't pick up on what I was saying. I explained it more just above, but God owns only His Word. If He gives a revelation to anyone , He still owns it. It belongs to Him. That's the only thing I'm talking about being God's property.
You need to re-think my posts with this correction in mind.
I'm all in favor of the rule of law protecting both the marketplace and the academic institutions with patents and copyrights. I've posted much on this. In addition to this I also see a higher complication, also heavily posted, but worth repeating, when God is the owner of some piece of intellectual property. The devil owns all the rest.
If God gives a revelation to BG Leonard it's really a loan. God still owns it, even though BG gets a copyright on it.
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL and then sort through the material and use some of it, that's God's right. If you read the very short and very interesting "Introduction to the Appendixes" to RHST we were given some profound words on this topic there.
I realize it's pretty dicey when man's law comes in conflict with God's. This is what the classical notion of Civil Disobedience is all about.
If it's REALLY God's property, and VPW retrieves it for God's further uses from BGL, Bullinger, Keynon, Styles, then VPW can expect God to protect him from harsh consequences if man's law gets in the way. It seems that happened. I used this EXACT type of protection 30 years ago when I told Howard Allen that we in San Diego had a plenty of copies of the class here in 1988.
If I were to write the book, I'd not copyright it maybe, unless I needed to to protect it from being altered. Maybe I could write it on a discussion forum in public, and the web WayBack machine will keep my originals protected. Hmmm. I'll have to ponder that. That would save a lot of copyright paperwork. I hate filling out forms.
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL........
wierwille steals from a variety of copyrighted material...through the wonders of incompetency he cobbles together a mishmash of teachings ...add a pinch of magic...one glass eye of a predator , several tons of egocentricity, season to taste and voila ! he’s got his “own” copyrighted material....wonder why wierwille got his books copyrighted....
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL........
I don't get it.
Don't get what's funny, and don't get what your partial quote means, except that I have a typo in it.
It should read:
"If God gives a revelation to VPW to study BGL..."
This is what VPW did actually claim in WLIL to Elena Whiteside. He said he did NOT originate most of the material. God did not give divine dictation for the collaterals. Maybe in a few places. But mostly VPW claimed that God taught him WHERE to get taught the truth. God taught him what use and what to not use. That's the major type of revelation VPW claimed he got, and not much actual text. It's interesting that God did give some text to Kenyon, BGL, Styles, etc. Or maybe He directed them most of it get it from their teachers. I see this thing as having grown for centuries before VPW, and so did he.
That God can and would give His revelations to sinful men should not be a new subject. God can overlook sin a lot better than we can. For us it's difficult because sin affects us and those we love, as well as our fellow man. We get caught up in the degree of pain attached to sin, and it clouds or stops our thinking in some other areas.
If God had His way we'd all be getting good inspirations of all types to help each other. That's all I ever wanted to do with this stuff, and I think that's all most of you wanted to do, originally.
..wonder why wierwille got his books copyrighted....
This is one of the Catch-22s of the copyright laws. They are man's laws and are not perfect.
If you write something and don't copyright it, but do try to publish it. Another publisher can copyright it for themselves, and legally steal it from you. I heard this is the reason they copyrighted the PFAL class videos. HOWEVER, I think they waited until about 15 years until 1982 to copyrigjht it. I think that's the year.
Another anomaly in TWI's copyright stance is the SNS tapes, or STS tapes from VPW's time.
None of them were copyrighted, and they have been copied by PFAL friendly grads 15 years ago on CD and sold as complete sets of all VPW's teachings. THEN, two other grads more recently have posted them all on two Internet websites. Internet Archive and "Eternally Blessed."
This is one more ADMITTEDLY ANECDOTAL item of proof that there are many thousands of PFAL friendly people out there.
At Internetarchive.org you can find all of VPW's SNS tapes, plus a ton of others like Bishop Pillai, and others.
Oh! All the Grateful Dead's shows are posted there too!
No. I did not write that at all. You just didn't pick up on what I was saying. I explained it more just above, but God owns only His Word. If He gives a revelation to anyone , He still owns it. It belongs to Him. That's the only thing I'm talking about being God's property.
You need to re-think my posts with this correction in mind.
Its too bad you depend on only the ministry to get your knowledge of God.
Psalms 24:01:
The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
Now, do you believe what the Bible says?
So we're back to my origional question: God owns the earth, too. Does that give me the right to rob someone? Does that give me the right to steal a car?
This is one of the Catch-22s of the copyright laws. They are man's laws and are not perfect.
If you write something and don't copyright it, but do try to publish it. Another publisher can copyright it for themselves, and legally steal it from you. I heard this is the reason they copyrighted the PFAL class videos. HOWEVER, I think they waited until about 15 years until 1982 to copyrigjht it. I think that's the year.
Its too bad you depend on only the ministry to get your knowledge of God.
Psalms 24:01:
The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
Now, do you believe what the Bible says?
So we're back to my origional question: God owns the earth, too. Does that give me the right to rob someone? Does that give me the right to steal a car?
Don't be ridiculous. Of course not.
God's ownership will ultimately prevail. Meanwhile we are stuck with the adversary as the god of this world, along with all the worldly trappings like deeds and titles. It's temporary.
God's ownership will ultimately prevail. Meanwhile we are stuck with the adversary as the god of this world, along with all the worldly trappings like deeds and titles. It's temporary.
Now extend that to the song and dance you've been giving us about Saint Vic's robbing others work. It's just as wrong
Mike, I don't think you understand what a copyright is. For lack of a better word, let me just say that a copyright is instantaneous. If you commit a book to a tangible form, it is copyrighted. Just like that. In order to protect yourself and your material, you subsequently file for a certificate of copyright. That is to provide a legal footing on which you can base any claim of originality.
I don't suppose that really matters, though, because what you have done is redefine the meaning of copyright. You can't simply redefine the meaning of terms in order to favor your own personal agenda. What Wierwille did was wrong. He stole the works of others and claimed them as his own.I'm not even talking about the content of those works. I'm simply talking about his actions.The fact that you personally choose to rationalize this does not alter reality by one iota.
I came on here today to try and answer Word Wolf's post, but again, I’ve failed. I had postponed and then neglected a few of his posts a few months ago, because they're always so long and detailed. I wanted to at least try to get to some of his points .
SOOOO, if I neglect the current posts for a while, please forgive me. I want to see if there are any other things I’ve missed in all this flurry. I’m older and a lot slower than I used to be, so things get missed.
So, while I’m reading and pondering WW’s posts, please be patient. If there’s any REALLY GOOD thing someone wants to talk about, as opposed to the usual attacks and deliberate misunderstandings, try to flag it with your heart. Maybe I’ll see it.
Oh, while I’m thinking of it, I wonder why Word Wolf always leaves out my comments on Mickey Mantle? Please ask him if he shows up while I’m gone.
Mike, I haven't seen anyone here attack you personally. What we are attacking is your outlandish claim that Wierwille wasn't a plagiarist. Clearly, he was. Deep in your heart, I think you know that.
Take any Mickey Mantle discussions off the table. This thread is not about Mickey Mantle.
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So_crates
Not long ago, my brother was always late. After waiting a couple of time for hime for a few hours, I told him: "Be as late as you want, but if your beyond 15 minutes, don't expect me to be waiting.
His response was like yours: "You don't understand. I don't percieve time the way you do."
My response: "Try driving down the wrong side of the road, then when the cop pulls you over, tell him you don't percieve driving the way he does."
Your opinion, my opinion, makes no difference. The law states who intellectual property belongs to.
So your excuse is God owns all intellectual property. God also owns everything on earth, too. Does that give me the right to rob someone? To steal someones car?
If God owns everything, then why Thou shall not steal?
Sounds like a lot of rationalization to make Saint Vic's robbery legitimate.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
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waysider
It's not food for deep thought, Mike. Anyone with a reasonable amount of education understands the essence of intellectual property and plagiarism. Choosing to ignore what you know to be factual does not make it any less true.
Let's boil the cabbage down, shall we? Wierwille plagiarized a whole bunch of materials that had been previously produced by other writers. That's not only illegal, it's unbiblical. You know, that whole thing about not stealing and such. Such a pesky little detail. It just seems to get in the way so often. But, wait, there's more. Then he lied about his sources, said God must have given the materials to him because he had already taken all his own copies to the dump. He said God promised to teach him information that hadn't been known for 2,000 years, even though most of it had, in fact, been known. See how that darned bible keeps getting in the way? All that nonsense about not lying. I mean, how inconvenient is that?
But that's O.K., Mike. Just change the subject and dance around with fanciful data that doesn't exist. Maybe nobody will notice the diversion.
Hey, I just happened to have an interesting thought. Maybe YOU could write the book . Be sure to copyrite it, though. Or, better yet, maybe you could put it straight into public domain. That would eliminate the problem of plagiarism and theft of intellectual property. Be sure to include some surveys and polls. That always spices things up.
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waysider
deleted...2x post
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Mike
I'm all in favor of the rule of law protecting both the marketplace and the academic institutions with patents and copyrights. I've posted much on this. In addition to this I also see a higher complication, also heavily posted, but worth repeating, when God is the owner of some piece of intellectual property. The devil owns all the rest.
If God gives a revelation to BG Leonard it's really a loan. God still owns it, even though BG gets a copyright on it.
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL and then sort through the material and use some of it, that's God's right. If you read the very short and very interesting "Introduction to the Appendixes" to RHST we were given some profound words on this topic there.
I realize it's pretty dicey when man's law comes in conflict with God's. This is what the classical notion of Civil Disobedience is all about.
If it's REALLY God's property, and VPW retrieves it for God's further uses from BGL, Bullinger, Keynon, Styles, then VPW can expect God to protect him from harsh consequences if man's law gets in the way. It seems that happened. I used this EXACT type of protection 30 years ago when I told Howard Allen that we in San Diego had a plenty of copies of the class here in 1988.
If I were to write the book, I'd not copyright it maybe, unless I needed to to protect it from being altered. Maybe I could write it on a discussion forum in public, and the web WayBack machine will keep my originals protected. Hmmm. I'll have to ponder that. That would save a lot of copyright paperwork. I hate filling out forms.
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Mike
No. I did not write that at all. You just didn't pick up on what I was saying. I explained it more just above, but God owns only His Word. If He gives a revelation to anyone , He still owns it. It belongs to Him. That's the only thing I'm talking about being God's property.
You need to re-think my posts with this correction in mind.
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skyrider
If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL........
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skyrider
YIKES.......... look out !!
Mike...........you just passed delusional boulevard and speeding toward insane highway.
.
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Bolshevik
It's not stealing it the name of God.
It's conquering in the name of God.
And we are more than conquers.
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T-Bone
wierwille steals from a variety of copyrighted material...through the wonders of incompetency he cobbles together a mishmash of teachings ...add a pinch of magic...one glass eye of a predator , several tons of egocentricity, season to taste and voila ! he’s got his “own” copyrighted material....wonder why wierwille got his books copyrighted....
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Mike
I don't get it.
Don't get what's funny, and don't get what your partial quote means, except that I have a typo in it.
It should read:
"If God gives a revelation to VPW to study BGL..."
This is what VPW did actually claim in WLIL to Elena Whiteside. He said he did NOT originate most of the material. God did not give divine dictation for the collaterals. Maybe in a few places. But mostly VPW claimed that God taught him WHERE to get taught the truth. God taught him what use and what to not use. That's the major type of revelation VPW claimed he got, and not much actual text. It's interesting that God did give some text to Kenyon, BGL, Styles, etc. Or maybe He directed them most of it get it from their teachers. I see this thing as having grown for centuries before VPW, and so did he.
That God can and would give His revelations to sinful men should not be a new subject. God can overlook sin a lot better than we can. For us it's difficult because sin affects us and those we love, as well as our fellow man. We get caught up in the degree of pain attached to sin, and it clouds or stops our thinking in some other areas.
If God had His way we'd all be getting good inspirations of all types to help each other. That's all I ever wanted to do with this stuff, and I think that's all most of you wanted to do, originally.
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Mike
This is one of the Catch-22s of the copyright laws. They are man's laws and are not perfect.
If you write something and don't copyright it, but do try to publish it. Another publisher can copyright it for themselves, and legally steal it from you. I heard this is the reason they copyrighted the PFAL class videos. HOWEVER, I think they waited until about 15 years until 1982 to copyrigjht it. I think that's the year.
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Mike
Another anomaly in TWI's copyright stance is the SNS tapes, or STS tapes from VPW's time.
None of them were copyrighted, and they have been copied by PFAL friendly grads 15 years ago on CD and sold as complete sets of all VPW's teachings. THEN, two other grads more recently have posted them all on two Internet websites. Internet Archive and "Eternally Blessed."
This is one more ADMITTEDLY ANECDOTAL item of proof that there are many thousands of PFAL friendly people out there.
At Internetarchive.org you can find all of VPW's SNS tapes, plus a ton of others like Bishop Pillai, and others.
Oh! All the Grateful Dead's shows are posted there too!
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So_crates
Its too bad you depend on only the ministry to get your knowledge of God.
Psalms 24:01:
The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
Now, do you believe what the Bible says?
So we're back to my origional question: God owns the earth, too. Does that give me the right to rob someone? Does that give me the right to steal a car?
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T-Bone
wierwille stole from copyrighted material
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Mike
Don't be ridiculous. Of course not.
God's ownership will ultimately prevail. Meanwhile we are stuck with the adversary as the god of this world, along with all the worldly trappings like deeds and titles. It's temporary.
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Mike
I guess you missed my posts on Arthur Koestler a few hours ago... or forgot them.
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So_crates
Now extend that to the song and dance you've been giving us about Saint Vic's robbing others work. It's just as wrong
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mike is drinking Drambuie and eggnog
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waysider
Mike, I don't think you understand what a copyright is. For lack of a better word, let me just say that a copyright is instantaneous. If you commit a book to a tangible form, it is copyrighted. Just like that. In order to protect yourself and your material, you subsequently file for a certificate of copyright. That is to provide a legal footing on which you can base any claim of originality.
I don't suppose that really matters, though, because what you have done is redefine the meaning of copyright. You can't simply redefine the meaning of terms in order to favor your own personal agenda. What Wierwille did was wrong. He stole the works of others and claimed them as his own.I'm not even talking about the content of those works. I'm simply talking about his actions.The fact that you personally choose to rationalize this does not alter reality by one iota.
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Mike
Not so, on several occasions he verbally claimed that they mostly were NOT his own,
and one time he put that in print via Elena Whiteside.
I've posted his written disclaimer here about ten or fifteen times, once just a few months ago.
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Mike
I came on here today to try and answer Word Wolf's post, but again, I’ve failed. I had postponed and then neglected a few of his posts a few months ago, because they're always so long and detailed. I wanted to at least try to get to some of his points .
SOOOO, if I neglect the current posts for a while, please forgive me. I want to see if there are any other things I’ve missed in all this flurry. I’m older and a lot slower than I used to be, so things get missed.
So, while I’m reading and pondering WW’s posts, please be patient. If there’s any REALLY GOOD thing someone wants to talk about, as opposed to the usual attacks and deliberate misunderstandings, try to flag it with your heart. Maybe I’ll see it.
Oh, while I’m thinking of it, I wonder why Word Wolf always leaves out my comments on Mickey Mantle? Please ask him if he shows up while I’m gone.
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waysider
Mike, I haven't seen anyone here attack you personally. What we are attacking is your outlandish claim that Wierwille wasn't a plagiarist. Clearly, he was. Deep in your heart, I think you know that.
Take any Mickey Mantle discussions off the table. This thread is not about Mickey Mantle.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Thomas, just like VPW??
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Mike
It's hard to get away from this place. It's like FaceBook!
In summary: if the PFAL collaterals are not God-breathed then all my bets are off, and all you folks are right about theft.
HOWEVER, if they ARE God-breathed, then there is a whole other perspective that none of you have ever thought through in any detail.
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