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A couple of questions


citygirl99
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On 2/12/2018 at 4:59 PM, Rocky said:

"All men are liars."  from Psalms 116:11
 

I agree. Rocky, you nailed it in an earlier post also, saying it is human nature.

This thread is fascinating to me. Before my involvement with the ministry I was on fire with researching the phenomenon of lying. I mean even to the point of making crude lie detectors at home. I was in touch with scientists who were top polygraph experts.

Later in life I hung around with brain scientists who often dealt with what they call "confabulation" where various varieties of brain damage can cause a victim to lie profusely and way beyond credulity.

In pursuing my interest in writing and language I noticed that lying is woven into our use of language (English at least) in a strange way. There are FAR more words in our vocabulary that describe the spectrum of lying than anyone would  ever guess.  We are literally entrenched in it.

I am trying to anticipate how Artificial Intelligence will deal with lying.

Meanwhile I appreciate all the perspectives offered here so far.

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On 2/13/2018 at 8:37 AM, chockfull said:

My feeling is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about the Board of Directors antics, cover-ups, control, ruining of lives through slander and lies, that's the minute they whitewash over the fence I was painting and move on.  The whole nature of this forum is to point out the other side of the story of the Way, not to accept that it is the nature of things for individuals and groups, thus excusing the evil behavior and equating it to other normal or semi-normal human behavior in society.

 

And my feeling and assessment is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about TWI's corporate governance and all it entails is the minute I stop letting them have any control over my life. I no longer need to accept that corporate governance as somehow necessary in my life.

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2 hours ago, Rocky said:

And my feeling and assessment is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about TWI's corporate governance and all it entails is the minute I stop letting them have any control over my life. I no longer need to accept that corporate governance as somehow necessary in my life.

I'm not sure I understand this, but I can continue to be indignant, alarmed, and telling the truth about the Way without them having any control over my life.

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1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I'm not sure I understand this...

Thanks for asking for clarification.

Again, nobody (well, me that is) was asking or suggesting you should stop telling the truth about them. However, you rightly don't have to let them have control over your life. Obviously, that process can take time to make the changes in one's brain.

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18 hours ago, So_crates said:

Shouldn't the translation be "Most humans are liars"?

The "humans" part of the translation is there to include women.

But why the "most"?

Well, Jesus Christ was a man, did he lie?

Soc, what a good question!!  No where in The Word, have I ever read that JC lied.  Yet, he was a man.  JC was kind, and compassionate, yet also truthful when he needed to be.  I personally think your question is one for a Biblical Scholar, which I am not.  What a great question Soc; does anyone know the answer?

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2 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Soc, what a good question!!  No where in The Word, have I ever read that JC lied.  Yet, he was a man.  JC was kind, and compassionate, yet also truthful when he needed to be.  I personally think your question is one for a Biblical Scholar, which I am not.  What a great question Soc; does anyone know the answer?

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline.

He was not "of Adam" or "of the man."

I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies."  

This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline.

He was not "of Adam" or "of the man."

I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies."  

This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

Mike, I think VPW was perhaps the greatest liar who ever lived.  He pretended to love God, then lived like the Devil himself.

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3 hours ago, Mike said:

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline.

He was not "of Adam" or "of the man."

I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies."  

This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

Straight out of PFAL.

(It must be true.)

  

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17 hours ago, Rocky said:

Thanks for asking for clarification.

Again, nobody (well, me that is) was asking or suggesting you should stop telling the truth about them. However, you rightly don't have to let them have control over your life. Obviously, that process can take time to make the changes in one's brain.

Sounds like we are saying the same thing.  Sorry for talking past you there for a bit.

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:59 PM, Rocky said:

"All men are liars."  from Psalms 116:11

Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender.

We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations).

Academics have pondered the issue, probably for eons. Interpersonal Deception Theory (IDT) explores the interrelation between the sender's communicative meaning and the receiver's thoughts and behavior in deceptive exchanges. Then there's looking at deception solely from the perspective on the deceived person.

When does one first recognize and realize that team sports often rely heavily on deception? Baseball -- the hidden ball trick; stealing signs (either baserunning signs or catchers calling for certain pitches). There's more of them just in baseball. In basketball, there's the head fake (then passing the "rock" to a different offensive player or taking the shot). In football, if the quarterback doesn't become masterful at looking at one receiver and throwing to others, he gets intercepted too frequently to be successful.

 

good post Rocky !

The ESV renders Psalm 119: 11 as follows:

I said in my alarm, All mankind are liars…Psalm 116: 11 ESV

Reading the context, it appears to me that the psalmist said this out of great distress – and I think he may have succumbed to a cognitive distortion  

– which may simply be one of the “ways that our mind convinces us of something that isn’t really true. These inaccurate thoughts are usually used to reinforce negative thinking or emotions — telling ourselves things that sound rational and accurate, but really only serve to keep us feeling bad about ourselves.” (from above link)

Do people lie sometimes? Sure. And some folks have a tendency to lie more than others. Like wierwille – he sure went on and on about his concern for the integrity and accuracy of “The Word” in PFAL…yeah, for someone who was an unabashed plagiarist I guess personal integrity or accuracy over where he got his ideas from wasn’t that big a deal.

 

I think the mindset reinforced by The Way International was prone to a lot of cognitive distortions – which was one of the ways they exercised a lot of control over folks…lies of entrapment!

 

Edited by T-Bone
clarity
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8 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Soc, what a good question!!  No where in The Word, have I ever read that JC lied.  Yet, he was a man.  JC was kind, and compassionate, yet also truthful when he needed to be.  I personally think your question is one for a Biblical Scholar, which I am not.  What a great question Soc; does anyone know the answer?

Occam's razor would suggest that regardless of whether JC ever lied, "All people are liars" retains it's veracity. It's a generalization that is accurate. IF JC never lied, it could rightfully be said that he would be the exception that proves the rule.

Further, I think Mike's

 

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline.

He was not "of Adam" or "of the man."

I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies."  

This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

Gobbledygook is just a lame attempt to translate his PFLAP belief into something that addresses the questions of modern Christians. I don't buy it.

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6 hours ago, Mike said:

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline.

He was not "of Adam" or "of the man."

I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies."  

This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

Do you have some early Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic text that rightfully translates it that way or are you just deciding that's how it must be according to your private interpretation of PFLAP?

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1 hour ago, RottieGrrrl said:

Well for what it's worth I thought Mike gave a decent answer. Works for me, anyway. 

Thank you, RottieGirl. 

What I answered was pretty much straight from Paul's epistles. Some of the terminology I used is PFAL, but the verses line up very nicely. I'll bet thousands of churches answer it the same way I did.

Addendum - the same word is used for "man" and for "Adam."

Edited by Mike
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