“But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.”
I contacted Boob and Doody MoneyHands the day of their Emancipation Proclamation last May. I wrote them a fairly lengthy letter. MoneyHands officiated at my wedding in July, 1973, just before we all entered the corpse. I’ve known them since 1971.
I asked in that letter, if Boob and Doody were going to look up the families of the people they drove to suicide with their fake “counseling”, and ask their forgiveness. I asked if they were going to look up all the scores of Corpse and WOW girls they told to get abortions so they could remain in the Corpse or on the WOW “field”. I asked them if they wanted to apologize to my family and me for the lies, libel, and slander they spread worldwide about us when we left in 1986. I asked if they were going to go to Toledo and confront da forehead for the 48 years of their lives devoted to anti-Christ doctrine and practice which he and dictor paul ordered them to carry out to the destruction, ruination, and even death of hundreds of innocent Christians. I asked a couple more questions. I got a response about 5 days later. It read, in its totality, “Hi Ralph.” That’s it. Nothing else in response.
You bet they understand “...the evil works they were a part of”! THEY COMMITTED THEM repeatedly for almost 50 years! I’ve contacted them directly MANY TIMES through the years since 12/86 when I left. They NEVER once asked me to “contact them directly” so they could apologize and ask my forgiveness! Never once! Even as recently as May, 2017, the last time I contacted them “directly”, you saw their snide, 2-Word reply. Yet YOU say they “seemed pretty repentant to me.” Really! Please read Matt 18, and I&II Timothy again and see if you’d like to re-phrase that. LOL!
I’m not trying to be “snarky” here Taxidev. I’m simply saying that, imho, your opinion of them is NOT based on fact. Quite the contrary, it is the result of self-serving, CYA, propaganda which they’ve been sloshing around liberally since dictor paul died in 1985, to make themselves TWIt “legends”, and to mask their cruelty and guilt. Same with the Forts and the Horney’s. I was the Corpse Director when The Horney’s were at HQ for their final in-Rez year. I KNOW their crimes against the Church. I was Fort’s Region and Trunk Coordinator. He was a condescending, insulting , unproductive, blabbermouth, prick back then, and most likely remains one today. Point being, I KNOW these creeps far better and far more deeply than you do. That’s not bragging, it’s just fact. They have fooled you just like Vic’n’TWIt did in ‘95. The only thing they’re sorry about is not having their Golden TWIt parachute to retire with. Guess they’ll be using family “savings” or begging their relatives and followers to “give as God directs their hearts”, TO THEM! Same old same old.
So, before you go singing the praises of a bunch of cruel, religious despots and liars, see if you can find out from them, some more of the REAL facts behind their sell-out to Satan and filthy lucre. And, NO! I carry no residual anger, nor do I live in the “gall of bitterness”. I am a seeker of Justice, like Jesus taught us to be. Try it. You’ll like it!.............peace.
DWBH, how sad that the people you mentioned, didn't change their hearts, when confronted with The Word. All those years of treating the Gospels like Dung, and hurting God's Children in the process. It makes me so sad, and sick. Someday, God will deal with them, as He will with all of us. I know that I am a sinner, but I have tried to live a good Christian life. Somedays I have succeeded, but others days I have failed miserably. But, I have never tried to Bullsheet God, or others. For that, I am thankful.
If it weren't for that word "micromanagement," I'd be inclined to disagree. In other words, I do think there was... well, what should I call it... direction (I'll avoid using the word "control") from the council (aka, the 12) at Jerusalem. Moreover, it was different (and poignant) enough from the guidance from Paul, that it resulted in the confrontation recorded in Acts 15. And frankly, although they plainly shook hands and came to a certain agreement between them, it appears to me that by then there were already two remarkably different "paths" in place - one of which continued with the centralized authority in Jerusalem, and one which... in so many words, should not have. (I think I'll leave it at that.)
TWI may have (somewhat) modeled itself after the centralized authoritarianism of the church at Jerusalem. Which, even as it did (under the best leadership and conditions imaginable) in the first century, failed. Why? (Well, not to mention or take into account the dismal difference in leadership... lol.) Simply put, because it didn't exactly match or fit with the new and more appropriate guidance that was given (by the risen and glorified Christ) to Paul.
Which is precisely why Paul was told to get out (and pretty much stay out) of Jerusalem.
TLC, I think TWI failed because it lead by a Con Man, VPW. He was never truly interested in spreading The Word. He was interested in money, power, and sex. In the end, he died a bitter, lonely man. I think he got what he deserved.
These were not of the ones that apologized. And I have no experience with them at all, not even teachings. When I started attending fellowship they were either in England or were preparing to go, and that was all I ever heard about them.
8 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:
I’m simply saying that, imho, your opinion of them is NOT based on fact.
The fact is what I heard from them. That's all I have to base my perspective on. If they are genuine about it, then it shouldn't matter what they did while in the throws of the mental prison. Look what Paul had done to Christians. He just changed his way and moved ahead with the new truth he understood. While I haven't seen anything in the bible indicating that he asked forgiveness of the families he had destroyed, I would be hard pressed to think he never addressed it.
8 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:
Guess they’ll be using family “savings” or begging their relatives and followers to “give as God directs their hearts”, TO THEM!
The R&R group has made it clear they want money from no one. They want us - those who have listened to their story of departure and to their teachings - to give to any other cause as we see fit, much like the believers did in Acts. They gave to those in need, individuals not organizations.
8 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:
Yet YOU say they “seemed pretty repentant to me.”
Yes, and I still say that.
But I also say, just as I wasn't sold out to TWI, I am not sold out to them. I am not even sold out to the local group that I have association with. All I care about, and have always cared about since I was 22 years old, is the truth of God's Word, and how to live it better every day. That's probably why I hold no grudges against those who have acted crappy toward me. I understand the grip a cult can have on people, and how they pretty much lose control of themselves.
I hope my perspective of them today is correct, and yours is incorrect. But if you are correct, it probably won't phase me at all - I'll just stop associating with them too.
BTW, I really appreciate all that background history. I knew things were bad back then, but I didn't know the half of it.
that it resulted in the confrontation recorded in Acts 15.
Which, even as it did (under the best leadership and conditions imaginable) in the first century, failed.
What I understand about this is:
When Paul started making an impact with the Gentiles, he didn't get direction from the council in Jerusalem. He went around doing his own thing, and they were glad about it.
By Acts 15, when he went there to handle the law being forced on the Gentiles, the entire group of believers there were in agreement on the final outcome of sending a letter with Paul to correct that situation. It seems by then there was some outside influence pushing on them, but still they used the Word to come to a full agreement.
Then, by the time Paul made his way back to Jerusalem, there was so much poison that had infiltrated, it wasn't the same organization Paul had originally met early on. And that's when the poisonous influence went out to the places where Paul had taught, and turned people against him. That's where I see the micromanagement coming into play, but not in the beginning.
The R&R fiasco was just a group effort to "redeploy" (another ploy, if you prefer) and present themselves in a "leadership" position to (hopefully) gain some kind of alternate financial (and maybe some emotional) support
They have made it very clear they do not want any money from anyone. But I'm sure they could use the emotional support.
Yes, they seem to be conducting themselves as in a leadership role which, in my view, is not the correct thing to do. Jesus Christ is the head, and we are all the body, including them. Maybe doing this is feeding their egos, some of them, because they believed they should have had more authority at TWI. I can only speculate, but I won't judge them. They, as well as all of you here, have been through a lot more than I have.
As long as they don't try to control what I, and those of us who are listening to their teachings, do then I have no issue with it. I'm thinking they may realize, as they work through the process and engage in conversations, that they have just put themselves in a "board of directors" capacity, exactly the thing they had issue with.
The fact is what I heard from them. That's all I have to base my perspective on. If they are genuine about it, then it shouldn't matter what they did while in the throws of the mental prison. Look what Paul had done to Christians.
...(Snip)
I think you may be comparing apples to oranges. Paul persecuted the church BEFORE his conversion. That’s totally different from the hypocrisy, spiritual abuse and exploitation perpetrated by supposedly Christian ministers - like in II Peter 2
“Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormented never the tormenter.” Ellie Wiesel, Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor.
By Acts 15, when he went there to handle the law being forced on the Gentiles, the entire group of believers there were in agreement on the final outcome of sending a letter with Paul to correct that situation. It seems by then there was some outside influence pushing on them, but still they used the Word to come to a full agreement.
What “Word” did they use? There were no Gospels or Epistles yet. Which part of Genesis through Malachi did they use at the Council in Acts 15?? Smells like “private interpretation” to me. Or, perhaps more accurately, “private speculation”.
“Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormented never the tormenter.” Ellie Wiesel, Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor.
No, they had the Torah and what Jesus Christ had taught them, and what they had already experienced. No private interpretation nor private speculation. I read the record. They referenced the prophets, but I'm not sure from where:
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Agreed. But mental prison is mental prison. As I had indicated earlier, I don't know most of these people, and I have no experience being entrenched in a cult. But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.
Being born again is no guarantee of doing the right thing. It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine, then what can be expected? That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.
As I also have indicated before, I am in no way defending anything they may have done or said. But I believe it is equally incorrect to not give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind, and are actually working to break themselves free of those mental prisons.
Well, it’s been 2 years thus far. 40 years before that. How long do they need? Matt 18 teaches you what, exactly? How about I&II Timothy? I find quite a bit of space between what you’re preaching and what Jesus taught, and what Paul expressed to Timothy. Would you kindly take a look at these scriptures and then share your interpretation of them with us? Thank you.
Would you kindly take a look at these scriptures and then share your interpretation of them with us?
Instead, how about you tell me which aspects of these scriptures relate to the point you are making? Matt 18 is pretty short, but the two Timothys are extensive, and I doubt I will be able to discern the point you are trying to make through all of it.
If you tell me the points, then I can look at those in relation to what you have said.
44 minutes ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:
I find quite a bit of space between what you’re preaching and what Jesus taught
I'm sorry, I don't have any idea what you mean by this. I know Jesus taught forgiveness, but I'm guessing you are thinking about something else.
Agreed. But mental prison is mental prison. As I had indicated earlier, I don't know most of these people, and I have no experience being entrenched in a cult. But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.
Being born again is no guarantee of doing the right thing. It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine, then what can be expected? That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.
As I also have indicated before, I am in no way defending anything they may have done or said. But I believe it is equally incorrect to not give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind, and are actually working to break themselves free of those mental prisons.
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group:
1. There is the Christian lifestyle where one professes a belief in Jesus Christ and follows a religion based on His life and teachings.
2. A destructive cult (please refer to the subcategory of “destructive cult” on Wikipedia) follows a certain agenda to the benefit of the cult leaders and to the detriment of the followers. The destructive cult is also parasitic when paired with a religion. It uses and feeds off the life and energy of the religion...the religion is a means to an end and not the end itself.
This symbiotic arrangement is invisible, of course - and often it depends on the individual as far as which one of the two lifestyles…eclipses…dominates…overrides the other.
== == == ==
Folks are usually not attracted to a destructive cult. In my case with TWI, I was attracted to what they said I could learn about Jesus Christ and increasing the power of God in my life – so I enrolled in the PFAL class.
If you stick around for a while and aspire to achieve any personal goals or some level of service – I believe you will come to many crossroads in your journey. These crossroads are like an intersection – where the Christian lifestyle and the destructive cult “meet” - where a crucial decision has to be made. Do you take the direction of a Christ-centered-faith or do you follow TWI’s direction which only furthers their agenda?
== == == ==
There are always moral dilemmas in life – and I think the decisions we make and the actions we take reveals so much about our character…and keep in mind how this all plays out on an individual basis and in different ways. I could be torn between wanting to give $100 to someone I know who really needs it – or give that to The Way International who reminds me that is part of my abundant sharing and putting God first.
I knew lots of good honest folks when I was in TWI. But I also came across some real a$$holes too. And I don’t mean folks with an irksome personality. I mean folks who were really into lording it over others, of using “for the sake of God’s ministry” as a cloak for excusing their dishonesty in business practices (I was burned a time or two) - where "doing the right thing" to resolve an offense or right a wrong really just amounts to sweeping it under the carpet so as not to give the ministry a bad name.. ...it's applying a fresh coat of white paint to the sepulcher of hypocrisy.
== == == ==
You said “But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.” Yeah, I think that’s the voices of the good honest folks who left TWI. The type of so called Christians who rip others off, who are self-serving as in Matthew 18 and in II Peter 2 do NOT post at Grease Spot…
I don’t think it’s a matter of “It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine” as you have stated – I believe it is simpler and deeper than that. It’s really about the type of person you are to begin with. Do you have the moral fiber to do what is right no matter the circumstances, or what your shrinking pocketbook or “evil overlord” is telling you to do?
You said: “That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.” I think Paul was an honest man – even before his conversion – he once said before a religious council he had lived his whole life in good conscience see Acts 23 though he was "before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" I Timothy 1:13 With religious zeal to spare Philippians 3:6 ...after his conversion he then made decisions based on his Christ-centered-faith. Paul of course did not have the New Testament documents to give him explicit directions on how to live the Christian life; but he did have the living Christ in his heart to first help him re-interpret the Old Testament documents in light of Jesus Christ being its fulfillment...and later inspiring him to write some of the New Testament documents as well.
Perhaps if we go by a simple idea – that actions speak louder than words (even the words of the Bible, that some folks like to use to obfuscate the issues) – then what folks actually do reveals a whole lot more about their character – you said: “give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind” – they’ve had their chance for a long time now - I think the proof is in the pudding.
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group:
1. There is the Christian lifestyle where one professes a belief in Jesus Christ and follows a religion based on His life and teachings.
2. A destructive cult (please refer to the subcategory of “destructive cult” on Wikipedia) follows a certain agenda to the benefit of the cult leaders and to the detriment of the followers. The destructive cult is also parasitic when paired with a religion. It uses and feeds off the life and energy of the religion...the religion is a means to an end and not the end itself.
This symbiotic arrangement is invisible, of course - and often it depends on the individual as far as which one of the two lifestyles…eclipses…dominates…overrides the other.
== == == ==
Folks are usually not attracted to a destructive cult. In my case with TWI, I was attracted to what they said I could learn about Jesus Christ and increasing the power of God in my life – so I enrolled in the PFAL class.
If you stick around for a while and aspire to achieve any personal goals or some level of service – I believe you will come to many crossroads in your journey. These crossroads are like an intersection – where the Christian lifestyle and the destructive cult “meet” - where a crucial decision has to be made. Do you take the direction of a Christ-centered-faith or do you follow TWI’s direction which only furthers their agenda?
There are always moral dilemmas in life – and I think the decisions we make and the actions we take reveals so much about our character…and keep in mind how this all plays out on an individual basis and in different ways. I could be torn between wanting to give $100 to someone I know who really needs it – or give that to The Way International who reminds me that is part of my abundant sharing and putting God first.
I knew lots of good honest folks when I was in TWI. But I also came across some real a$$holes too. And I don’t mean folks with an irksome personality. I mean folks who were really into lording it over others, of using “for the sake of God’s ministry” as a cloak for excusing their dishonesty in business practices (I was burned a time or two) - where "doing the right thing" to resolve an offense or right a wrong really just amounts to sweeping it under the carpet so as not to give the ministry a bad name.. ...it's applying a fresh coat of white paint to the sepulcher of hypocrisy.
You said “But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.” Yeah, I think that’s the voices of the good honest folks who left TWI. The type of so called Christians who rip others off, who are self-serving as in Matthew 18 and in II Peter 2 do NOT post at Grease Spot…
I don’t think it’s a matter of “It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine” – I believe it is simpler and deeper than that. It’s really about the type of person you are to begin with. Do you have the moral fiber to do what is right no matter the circumstances, or what your shrinking pocketbook or “evil overlord” is telling you to do?
You said: “That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.” I think Paul was an honest man – even before his conversion – he once said before a religious council he had lived his whole life in good conscience see Acts 23 though he was "before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" I Timothy 1:13 With religious zeal to spare Philippians 3:6
Perhaps if we go by a simple idea – that actions speak louder than words (even the words of the Bible, that some folks like to use to obfuscate the issues) – then what folks actually do reveals a whole lot more about their character – you said: “give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind” – they’ve had their chance for a long time now - I think the proof is in the pudding.
T-Bone, wow! Great post! I wish someone would send a copy to the R&R Group. It might tick them off, but I think your post expresses many of the views, some of us have here at the GSC.
When Paul started making an impact with the Gentiles, he didn't get direction from the council in Jerusalem. He went around doing his own thing, and they were glad about it.
Frankly, I think it's quite presumptuous to say "they were glad about it." Because if that were really true, then why would "certain men" (note that they are not reference by name) come down from Judea to... what shall we say... "make sure" that these new converts (that were turning to Christ) were actually going to be saved? They obviously had heard something of Paul's work... and evidently, enough to suppose it wasn't quite right. Clearly they weren't so "glad" that they were willing to leave Paul alone to "do his own thing." (So, I'm forced to question how much you honestly "understand" about what was actually going on or happening back then.)
20 hours ago, Taxidev said:
By Acts 15, when he went there to handle the law being forced on the Gentiles, the entire group of believers there were in agreement on the final outcome of sending a letter with Paul to correct that situation. It seems by then there was some outside influence pushing on them, but still they used the Word to come to a full agreement.
When do you see and/or think the 12 apostles moved away from a rather disciplined obedience to the law? Or why do you think such a push came from "some outside influence" rather than it being a directive straight from the heart of leadership in Jerusalem? Furthermore, I'm not one bit convinced that they were all in "full agreement" on much else other than - Paul, you go to the Gentiles, and we will (continue) going to all of Israel (wherever they are, throughout all the world.) Maybe not even that, as it never seems to stop or prevent Paul from going into the local synagogues on his itineraries and (first) preaching to the Jews that there. And they surely DID NOT agree on the gospel message, from what I can see. Which is probably why Paul subsequently referred to his message of the gospel of grace as "my gospel." The leadership in Jerusalem, as far as I can tell, continued attending services in the Temple, and in preaching "the gospel of the Kingdom" to Israelites... but you know... seems Paul never much was really left alone to preach his gospel. (see Acts 17:13; 21:28; 22:21-22.)
20 hours ago, Taxidev said:
Then, by the time Paul made his way back to Jerusalem, there was so much poison that had infiltrated, it wasn't the same organization Paul had originally met early on.
Well, I vehemently disagree. Fact is, I think it was exactly the same organization that Paul met with early on... which is the real root of the problem evidenced later in Acts. They never honestly changed. Which, to repeat something that I've already made mention of, I see as the reason why God originally told Paul to get of and (for the most part) stay out of Jerusalem. Israel had the opportunity to accept Christ. Twice, as a matter of fact. Before his death, when he ministered to the circumcision, and then again after his ascension, with the testimony of Stephen in Acts 7. Had Israel, as a nation, believed Stephen and accepted Jesus as their Messiah (this is what their salvation was contingent upon), I believe he would have returned and set up his kingdom here on earth. However, they (as a nation) did not believe, and flat out rejected the Christ. So, something new was introduced, starting with Saul's conversion, in Acts 9. Simply put, it was so stunning a "game changer" that the church at Jerusalem never did really accept or get comfortable with it (as plainly attested to in 2 Peter 3:16.) They continued with the law of Moses right up to the bitter end (i.e., the destruction of the temple.)
20 hours ago, Taxidev said:
That's where I see the micromanagement coming into play, but not in the beginning.
I'm inclined to think that micromanagement can be (probably is) more of an excuse for failure, that merely distracts us from or covers over the real reason for its failure.
They have made it very clear they do not want any money from anyone. But I'm sure they could use the emotional support.
Easy to say it's not the money (it's a good sales technique - and trust me, I know.) Doesn't mean that it isn't. Maybe try thinking about it another way.
It's the power they're addicted to. And, money is a relatively tangible proof of power.
('cause money can gets chit done... lol.)
This symbiotic arrangement is invisible, of course
This whole description is fabulous! So well put, T, thank you.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
I could be torn between wanting to give $100 to someone I know who really needs it
This distinction is what some of us - me and some folks local to me - have realized is what "abundant sharing" is truly about. The first century believers didn't send money to Jerusalem to support the new church, they helped people locally, whoever had need. Only once does the Word say they sent money to Jerusalem, and that was to help those in need during the - famine? I think that's what it was.
So, according to what I have recently learned, giving the money directly to the person is need is the way to go.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
they’ve had their chance for a long time now - I think the proof is in the pudding.
You may be 100% correct. I don't know many of these people, I have had direct dealings with only a few, and I know they haven't acted despicably toward me. So maybe, like Paul, the ones I know personally are good people to begin with.
You have fed me quite a bit with this entire post, and I really appreciate it.
That's a very good point, and a great explanation as to why there is an obvious inner circle that calls the shots about what happens in the R&R group. But they did say our giving should go anywhere other than to them.
Your prior comment to some points I made is a bit deeper, and at first read I think I may not have been clear on the timing of things. I'm going to look at that and get back to you on it.
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skyrider
How presumptuous of "them." "Our days are too precious to squander on the negatives." "Thank God, Paul did not spend time engaging in word battles about concerns that were decades old."
T-Bone
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group: 1. There is the Chri
Twinky
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some i
Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, how sad that the people you mentioned, didn't change their hearts, when confronted with The Word. All those years of treating the Gospels like Dung, and hurting God's Children in the process. It makes me so sad, and sick. Someday, God will deal with them, as He will with all of us. I know that I am a sinner, but I have tried to live a good Christian life. Somedays I have succeeded, but others days I have failed miserably. But, I have never tried to Bullsheet God, or others. For that, I am thankful.
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Grace Valerie Claire
TLC, I think TWI failed because it lead by a Con Man, VPW. He was never truly interested in spreading The Word. He was interested in money, power, and sex. In the end, he died a bitter, lonely man. I think he got what he deserved.
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Taxidev
Actually, you can use zoom to remote in and join the meetings. If interested, just message me for the details.
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Taxidev
These were not of the ones that apologized. And I have no experience with them at all, not even teachings. When I started attending fellowship they were either in England or were preparing to go, and that was all I ever heard about them.
The fact is what I heard from them. That's all I have to base my perspective on. If they are genuine about it, then it shouldn't matter what they did while in the throws of the mental prison. Look what Paul had done to Christians. He just changed his way and moved ahead with the new truth he understood. While I haven't seen anything in the bible indicating that he asked forgiveness of the families he had destroyed, I would be hard pressed to think he never addressed it.
The R&R group has made it clear they want money from no one. They want us - those who have listened to their story of departure and to their teachings - to give to any other cause as we see fit, much like the believers did in Acts. They gave to those in need, individuals not organizations.
Yes, and I still say that.
But I also say, just as I wasn't sold out to TWI, I am not sold out to them. I am not even sold out to the local group that I have association with. All I care about, and have always cared about since I was 22 years old, is the truth of God's Word, and how to live it better every day. That's probably why I hold no grudges against those who have acted crappy toward me. I understand the grip a cult can have on people, and how they pretty much lose control of themselves.
I hope my perspective of them today is correct, and yours is incorrect. But if you are correct, it probably won't phase me at all - I'll just stop associating with them too.
BTW, I really appreciate all that background history. I knew things were bad back then, but I didn't know the half of it.
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Taxidev
What I understand about this is:
When Paul started making an impact with the Gentiles, he didn't get direction from the council in Jerusalem. He went around doing his own thing, and they were glad about it.
By Acts 15, when he went there to handle the law being forced on the Gentiles, the entire group of believers there were in agreement on the final outcome of sending a letter with Paul to correct that situation. It seems by then there was some outside influence pushing on them, but still they used the Word to come to a full agreement.
Then, by the time Paul made his way back to Jerusalem, there was so much poison that had infiltrated, it wasn't the same organization Paul had originally met early on. And that's when the poisonous influence went out to the places where Paul had taught, and turned people against him. That's where I see the micromanagement coming into play, but not in the beginning.
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Taxidev
They have made it very clear they do not want any money from anyone. But I'm sure they could use the emotional support.
Yes, they seem to be conducting themselves as in a leadership role which, in my view, is not the correct thing to do. Jesus Christ is the head, and we are all the body, including them. Maybe doing this is feeding their egos, some of them, because they believed they should have had more authority at TWI. I can only speculate, but I won't judge them. They, as well as all of you here, have been through a lot more than I have.
As long as they don't try to control what I, and those of us who are listening to their teachings, do then I have no issue with it. I'm thinking they may realize, as they work through the process and engage in conversations, that they have just put themselves in a "board of directors" capacity, exactly the thing they had issue with.
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T-Bone
I think you may be comparing apples to oranges. Paul persecuted the church BEFORE his conversion. That’s totally different from the hypocrisy, spiritual abuse and exploitation perpetrated by supposedly Christian ministers - like in II Peter 2
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DontWorryBeHappy
“Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormented never the tormenter.” Ellie Wiesel, Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor.
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DontWorryBeHappy
What “Word” did they use? There were no Gospels or Epistles yet. Which part of Genesis through Malachi did they use at the Council in Acts 15?? Smells like “private interpretation” to me. Or, perhaps more accurately, “private speculation”.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, great quote! I loved Ellie Wiesel"s books.
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Taxidev
No, they had the Torah and what Jesus Christ had taught them, and what they had already experienced. No private interpretation nor private speculation. I read the record. They referenced the prophets, but I'm not sure from where:
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Edited by TaxidevAct 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
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Taxidev
Agreed. But mental prison is mental prison. As I had indicated earlier, I don't know most of these people, and I have no experience being entrenched in a cult. But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.
Being born again is no guarantee of doing the right thing. It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine, then what can be expected? That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.
As I also have indicated before, I am in no way defending anything they may have done or said. But I believe it is equally incorrect to not give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind, and are actually working to break themselves free of those mental prisons.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Well, it’s been 2 years thus far. 40 years before that. How long do they need? Matt 18 teaches you what, exactly? How about I&II Timothy? I find quite a bit of space between what you’re preaching and what Jesus taught, and what Paul expressed to Timothy. Would you kindly take a look at these scriptures and then share your interpretation of them with us? Thank you.
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Taxidev
Instead, how about you tell me which aspects of these scriptures relate to the point you are making? Matt 18 is pretty short, but the two Timothys are extensive, and I doubt I will be able to discern the point you are trying to make through all of it.
If you tell me the points, then I can look at those in relation to what you have said.
I'm sorry, I don't have any idea what you mean by this. I know Jesus taught forgiveness, but I'm guessing you are thinking about something else.
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Taxidev
I don't know. How long did you need?
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T-Bone
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group:
1. There is the Christian lifestyle where one professes a belief in Jesus Christ and follows a religion based on His life and teachings.
2. A destructive cult (please refer to the subcategory of “destructive cult” on Wikipedia) follows a certain agenda to the benefit of the cult leaders and to the detriment of the followers. The destructive cult is also parasitic when paired with a religion. It uses and feeds off the life and energy of the religion...the religion is a means to an end and not the end itself.
This symbiotic arrangement is invisible, of course - and often it depends on the individual as far as which one of the two lifestyles…eclipses…dominates…overrides the other.
== == == ==
Folks are usually not attracted to a destructive cult. In my case with TWI, I was attracted to what they said I could learn about Jesus Christ and increasing the power of God in my life – so I enrolled in the PFAL class.
If you stick around for a while and aspire to achieve any personal goals or some level of service – I believe you will come to many crossroads in your journey. These crossroads are like an intersection – where the Christian lifestyle and the destructive cult “meet” - where a crucial decision has to be made. Do you take the direction of a Christ-centered-faith or do you follow TWI’s direction which only furthers their agenda?
== == == ==
There are always moral dilemmas in life – and I think the decisions we make and the actions we take reveals so much about our character…and keep in mind how this all plays out on an individual basis and in different ways. I could be torn between wanting to give $100 to someone I know who really needs it – or give that to The Way International who reminds me that is part of my abundant sharing and putting God first.
I knew lots of good honest folks when I was in TWI. But I also came across some real a$$holes too. And I don’t mean folks with an irksome personality. I mean folks who were really into lording it over others, of using “for the sake of God’s ministry” as a cloak for excusing their dishonesty in business practices (I was burned a time or two) - where "doing the right thing" to resolve an offense or right a wrong really just amounts to sweeping it under the carpet so as not to give the ministry a bad name.. ...it's applying a fresh coat of white paint to the sepulcher of hypocrisy.
== == == ==
You said “But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.” Yeah, I think that’s the voices of the good honest folks who left TWI. The type of so called Christians who rip others off, who are self-serving as in Matthew 18 and in II Peter 2 do NOT post at Grease Spot…
I don’t think it’s a matter of “It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine” as you have stated – I believe it is simpler and deeper than that. It’s really about the type of person you are to begin with. Do you have the moral fiber to do what is right no matter the circumstances, or what your shrinking pocketbook or “evil overlord” is telling you to do?
You said: “That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.” I think Paul was an honest man – even before his conversion – he once said before a religious council he had lived his whole life in good conscience see Acts 23 though he was "before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" I Timothy 1:13 With religious zeal to spare Philippians 3:6 ...after his conversion he then made decisions based on his Christ-centered-faith. Paul of course did not have the New Testament documents to give him explicit directions on how to live the Christian life; but he did have the living Christ in his heart to first help him re-interpret the Old Testament documents in light of Jesus Christ being its fulfillment...and later inspiring him to write some of the New Testament documents as well.
Perhaps if we go by a simple idea – that actions speak louder than words (even the words of the Bible, that some folks like to use to obfuscate the issues) – then what folks actually do reveals a whole lot more about their character – you said: “give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind” – they’ve had their chance for a long time now - I think the proof is in the pudding.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and clarity
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, wow! Great post! I wish someone would send a copy to the R&R Group. It might tick them off, but I think your post expresses many of the views, some of us have here at the GSC.
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TLC
Frankly, I think it's quite presumptuous to say "they were glad about it." Because if that were really true, then why would "certain men" (note that they are not reference by name) come down from Judea to... what shall we say... "make sure" that these new converts (that were turning to Christ) were actually going to be saved? They obviously had heard something of Paul's work... and evidently, enough to suppose it wasn't quite right. Clearly they weren't so "glad" that they were willing to leave Paul alone to "do his own thing." (So, I'm forced to question how much you honestly "understand" about what was actually going on or happening back then.)
When do you see and/or think the 12 apostles moved away from a rather disciplined obedience to the law? Or why do you think such a push came from "some outside influence" rather than it being a directive straight from the heart of leadership in Jerusalem? Furthermore, I'm not one bit convinced that they were all in "full agreement" on much else other than - Paul, you go to the Gentiles, and we will (continue) going to all of Israel (wherever they are, throughout all the world.) Maybe not even that, as it never seems to stop or prevent Paul from going into the local synagogues on his itineraries and (first) preaching to the Jews that there. And they surely DID NOT agree on the gospel message, from what I can see. Which is probably why Paul subsequently referred to his message of the gospel of grace as "my gospel." The leadership in Jerusalem, as far as I can tell, continued attending services in the Temple, and in preaching "the gospel of the Kingdom" to Israelites... but you know... seems Paul never much was really left alone to preach his gospel. (see Acts 17:13; 21:28; 22:21-22.)
Well, I vehemently disagree. Fact is, I think it was exactly the same organization that Paul met with early on... which is the real root of the problem evidenced later in Acts. They never honestly changed. Which, to repeat something that I've already made mention of, I see as the reason why God originally told Paul to get of and (for the most part) stay out of Jerusalem. Israel had the opportunity to accept Christ. Twice, as a matter of fact. Before his death, when he ministered to the circumcision, and then again after his ascension, with the testimony of Stephen in Acts 7. Had Israel, as a nation, believed Stephen and accepted Jesus as their Messiah (this is what their salvation was contingent upon), I believe he would have returned and set up his kingdom here on earth. However, they (as a nation) did not believe, and flat out rejected the Christ. So, something new was introduced, starting with Saul's conversion, in Acts 9. Simply put, it was so stunning a "game changer" that the church at Jerusalem never did really accept or get comfortable with it (as plainly attested to in 2 Peter 3:16.) They continued with the law of Moses right up to the bitter end (i.e., the destruction of the temple.)
I'm inclined to think that micromanagement can be (probably is) more of an excuse for failure, that merely distracts us from or covers over the real reason for its failure.
Edited by TLCspelling
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TLC
Easy to say it's not the money (it's a good sales technique - and trust me, I know.) Doesn't mean that it isn't. Maybe try thinking about it another way.
It's the power they're addicted to. And, money is a relatively tangible proof of power.
('cause money can gets chit done... lol.)
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Taxidev
This whole description is fabulous! So well put, T, thank you.
This distinction is what some of us - me and some folks local to me - have realized is what "abundant sharing" is truly about. The first century believers didn't send money to Jerusalem to support the new church, they helped people locally, whoever had need. Only once does the Word say they sent money to Jerusalem, and that was to help those in need during the - famine? I think that's what it was.
So, according to what I have recently learned, giving the money directly to the person is need is the way to go.
You may be 100% correct. I don't know many of these people, I have had direct dealings with only a few, and I know they haven't acted despicably toward me. So maybe, like Paul, the ones I know personally are good people to begin with.
You have fed me quite a bit with this entire post, and I really appreciate it.
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Taxidev
I can do that, if you like.
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Taxidev
That's a very good point, and a great explanation as to why there is an obvious inner circle that calls the shots about what happens in the R&R group. But they did say our giving should go anywhere other than to them.
Your prior comment to some points I made is a bit deeper, and at first read I think I may not have been clear on the timing of things. I'm going to look at that and get back to you on it.
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chockfull
As should our attention as they have currently absolutely nothing to offer. Except to each other in a private Facebook group and website.
There within the confines of those walls, let the blind lead the blind with all sorts of made up titles.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, please do! Thanks!
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