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Mark Sanguinetti

The Myth of Hell

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Yes, I have asked you questions. Unless I've missed it, you seem to have -- for the most part -- not answered them.

Also, in light of Raf's comments today, I'm wondering how relevant to the topic of this thread your last sentence (highlighted above) is.

Rocky, again you have many questions that you have asked me in this doctrinal forum.  I have answered at least some of them, yet you have ignored the answers to your questions. Since you have highlighted the above text that I posted. I am going to ask you the following question. Do you read the bible now? Obviously, if you have actual biblical questions this would involve reading the bible. And the asking of questions on any subject should involve the desire to learn from others.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

...(snipped)...Do you read the bible now? Obviously, if you have actual biblical questions this would involve reading the bible. And the asking of questions on any subject should involve the desire to learn from others.

Currently reading the Bible is not a prerequisite to participating here, nor for asking questions about it. Also, there are many reasons for asking questions other than desiring to learn from others.

my mother always asked questions of her contacts, not so much to learn from them, but to help them better define or develop their own positions.

 Rocky or others may or may not ever answer Mark’s question, but anyone can ask, comment, or discuss doctrine here provided they do not make personal attacks.

the topic title defined the thread as “The myth of hell”.  It is not limited to discussing Mark’s personal biblical doctrine. That is not how this place works.

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I asked a couple of rhetorical questions, that's all. Doesn't matter anyway.

I don't do surveys. If an answer comes out in a post, that is okay, but I could change my mind.

Edited by cman
correcting grammar

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9 minutes ago, Modgellan said:

Currently reading the Bible is not a prerequisite to participating here, nor for asking questions about it. Also, there are many reasons for asking questions other than desiring to learn from others.

my mother always asked questions of her contacts, not so much to learn from them, but to help them better define or develop their own positions.

 Rocky or others may or may not ever answer Mark’s question, but anyone can ask, comment, or discuss doctrine here provided they do not make personal attacks.

the topic title defined the thread as “The myth of hell”.  It is not limited to discussing Mark’s personal biblical doctrine. That is not how this place works.

Yes, personal attacks are bad. However, one of the main reasons why Grease Spot Cafe has had less posters today than in previous years. Asking questions with no goal to learn. Why should a person answer a question when the person asking it will not even consider the answer explained to them? It is the practical equivalent of talking to a brick wall.

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4 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Rocky, again you have many questions that you have asked me in this doctrinal forum.  I have answered at least some of them, yet you have ignored the answers to your questions. Since you have highlighted the above text that I posted. I am going to ask you the following question. Do you read the bible now? Obviously, if you have actual biblical questions this would involve reading the bible. And the asking of questions on any subject should involve the desire to learn from others.

The reason I highlighted by strikethrough, that part of your comment is because I fail to see the relevance of that question to the topic of this thread.

Perhaps if you were to start another thread that focused the topic on the biblical basis for understanding of hell, that might be relevant.

But I digress.

Modgellan's correct about multiple reasons for asking questions.

It's also important in discussions like this one to recognize that just because something pops into one's head (or thinking, or consciousness) doesn't mean it's necessarily true, logical or "spiritual."

Empiricism 

"Empiricism is the philosophy of knowledge by observation. It holds that the best way to gain knowledge is to see, hear, touch, or otherwise sense things directly. In stronger versions, it holds that this is the only kind of knowledge that really counts. Empiricism has been extremely important to the history of science, as various thinkers over the centuries have proposed that all knowledge should be tested empirically rather than just through thought-experiments or rational calculation."

Epistemology

 

Epistemology (pronounced eh-PIH-stem-AH-luh-jee) is the study of knowledge. It raises questions like

What is truth?
Do we really know what we think we know?
How can knowledge be made more reliable?

-----

I am willing to tell you, Mark, that I do read the Bible but NOT the way (fundamentalism) we learned to do from Wierwille, twi or the PFLAP class.

There's MUCH more knowledge and understanding of lots of areas of life to be learned when we don't limit our learning to ONLY the Bible.

The Bible contains LOTS of STORIES. We humans often learn best from stories. That's why Television and motion pictures are such a powerful influence in today's Western Culture. Because they tell stories.

Among the stories are the Myth(s) of Hell.


Anyway, we grossly limit ourselves and  limit our understanding of Christianity and spirituality by stuffing ourselves into the box of fundamentalism when reading and studying the Bible. One of the grandest ways we did that with Way Brain was to think that we got revelation about the meanings of Biblical stories by parsing Greek and Hebrew words.

 

Edited by Rocky

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21 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Yes, personal attacks are bad. However, one of the main reasons why Grease Spot Cafe has had less posters today than in previous years. Asking questions with no goal to learn. Why should a person answer a question when the person asking it will not even consider the answer explained to them? It is the practical equivalent of talking to a brick wall.

I am not at all sure that is a major factor to the lower participation here, let alone a main one.

Facebook, Twitter, maturing, age, goals, changing personal foci, refusing to have others force their interpretation ... all have a part in the traffic here.  Not many people come here to get preached to. I am sure of that.

Do you yourself come here to learn anything? (P.S. it is not required that you do).

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Since we're going there: Greasespot has fewer posters than in prior years because

1. We shut down the political threads that brought people hear to tear each other's heads off.

2. The Way International shrunk. The need for a rebuttal site shrunk accordingly.

3. People were told over and over again to "get over it." The vast majority of us did just that.

 

Greasespot became smaller for the same reason troops withdraw from a region when the war is over. Because it's over.

 

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14 hours ago, Modgellan said:

Do you yourself come here to learn anything? (P.S. it is not required that you do).

Given how easy it usually is to learn at least something, it seems rather dumb (and a real waste of time) in one doesn't.

At the very least you'd think that you might learn how to better communicate with other people (only) through written words...

 

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:03 AM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Certainly, more was known with Jesus Christ coming to earth with his teachings and insight.  

Well, I don't see that he ever said or revealed much of anything either (if anything) about life in heaven, or man living eternally anywhere other than here on earth.  Matter of fact, seems I don't see in anywhere else in scripture, aside from certain things that Paul spoke of.

P.S.  The parable of Abraham's bosom is just that... a parable.

Edited by TLC

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3 hours ago, TLC said:

Well, I don't see that he ever said or revealed much of anything either (if anything) about life in heaven, or man living eternally anywhere other than here on earth.  Matter of fact, seems I don't see in anywhere else in scripture, aside from certain things that Paul spoke of.

P.S.  The parable of Abraham's bosom is just that... a parable.

Certainly, Paul was the best teacher on this subject. However, there are many usages of the word heaven for both the Old and New Testaments from the NIV. I do not have time to read them now. Regarding life in heaven, I think your statement is valid and should at least be considered. One of the gospel chapters that has the word heaven in it is John 6. This is one of the chapters that could be read and analyzed.  

After reading these verses I did notice that it says that Jesus came down from heaven. In verse "40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” It does not mention going to heaven, but it at least says raise them up.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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3 hours ago, TLC said:

Well, I don't see that he ever said or revealed much of anything either (if anything) about life in heaven, or man living eternally anywhere other than here on earth.  Matter of fact, seems I don't see in anywhere else in scripture, aside from certain things that Paul spoke of.

P.S.  The parable of Abraham's bosom is just that... a parable.

Parable - a form of story.

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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Certainly, Paul was the best teacher on this subject. However, there are many usages of the word heaven for both the Old and New Testaments from the NIV. I do not have time to read them now. Regarding life in heaven, I think your statement is valid and should at least be considered. One of the gospel chapters that has the word heaven in it is John 6. This is one of the chapters that could be read and analyzed.  

After reading these verses I did notice that it says that Jesus came down from heaven. In verse "40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” It does not mention going to heaven, but it at least says raise them up.

And how much of John 6 do you think might also be a parable?

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2 hours ago, TLC said:

And how much of John 6 do you think might also be a parable?

I looked up the word parable, since I rarely use this word. This means a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

Calling this a parable is fine. Certainly much of the biblical teachings are figurative or symbolic and are not literal. Certainly there is an increase of knowledge showing what is available with Jesus Christ and his best teacher, the Apostle Paul. Regarding the new spiritual body patterned after the Lord's resurrected body. It looks to me like we will be able to fly. Perhaps even better than a bird. Perhaps even as good as an airplane. Maybe I am now combining a parable with a fable. I think being able to fly even better than a bird would be very good. 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

I looked up the word parable, since I rarely use this word. This means a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

Calling this a parable is fine. Certainly much of the biblical teachings are figurative or symbolic and are not literal. Certainly there is an increase of knowledge showing what is available with Jesus Christ and his best teacher, the Apostle Paul. Regarding the new spiritual body patterned after the Lord's resurrected body. It looks to me like we will be able to fly. Perhaps even better than a bird. Perhaps even as good as an airplane. Maybe I am now combining a parable with a fable. I think being able to fly even better than a bird would be very good. 

OMG!

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9 hours ago, Rocky said:

It looks to me like we will be able to fly. Perhaps even better than a bird. Perhaps even as good as an airplane. Maybe I am now combining a parable with a fable. I think being able to fly even better than a bird would be very good. 

Off topic? Maybe, maybe not.

 

HERE

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14 hours ago, waysider said:

Off topic? Maybe, maybe not.

 

HERE

Rocky didn't say what you quoted. Rocky quoted Mark S as having said it. Not my call whether it's off topic or not.

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Please accept my apology, Rocky. I knew it was Mark who said it but inadvertently copied it from the wrong post.

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13 hours ago, waysider said:

Please accept my apology, Rocky. I knew it was Mark who said it but inadvertently copied it from the wrong post.

No prob :drink:

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On 12/28/2018 at 4:34 PM, Raf said:

Since we're going there: Greasespot has fewer posters than in prior years because

1. We shut down the political threads that brought people hear to tear each other's heads off.

2. The Way International shrunk. The need for a rebuttal site shrunk accordingly.

3. People were told over and over again to "get over it." The vast majority of us did just that.

 

Greasespot became smaller for the same reason troops withdraw from a region when the war is over. Because it's over.

 

I agree that those are all reasons the GSC has fewer posters.  However, a few posters have posted that they were leaving specifically because this place was too argumentative and so on. I'm prepared to take their words on why they took off.

 

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no two people had the same reasons. Sure some people didn't like the arguing. But the vast majority left without announcing anything. Their habits changed.

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5 hours ago, Raf said:

no two people had the same reasons. Sure some people didn't like the arguing. But the vast majority left without announcing anything. Their habits changed.

True. For those who did not say (most of the posters who left), we won't know PRECISELY for sure.  I still consider their numbers, as a whole, as success stories.  They got what they needed from here, and moved on with their lives.  They "took their revenge" on twi by living well.  :)

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Fundamentalism is what Wierwille sold us. Of course, it was his interpretation of all the words in The Word that mattered in TWI. Nevertheless, on Sunday evening I found this article about how religious fundamentalism works in the human brain.

Notably, 

In moderation, religious and spiritual practices can be great for a person’s life and mental well-being. But religious fundamentalism—which refers to the belief in the absolute authority of a religious text or leaders—is almost never good for an individual. This is primarily because fundamentalism discourages any logical reasoning or scientific evidence that challenges its scripture, making it inherently maladaptive. [...]

refers to ideas as “memes” (the mental analog of a gene), which he has defined as self-replicating units that spread throughout culture. We are all familiar with many types of memes, including the various customs, myths [stories], and trends that have become part of human society. [...]

ideas spread through the behavior that they produce in their hosts, which is what enables them to be transmitted from one brain to another. For example, an ideology—such as a religion—that causes its inhabitants to practice its rituals and communicate its beliefs will be transmitted to others. Successful ideas are those that are best able to spread themselves, while those that fail to self-replicate go extinct. In this way, some religious ideologies persist while others fade into oblivion.

Frankly, the sooner Wierwille-ism fades into oblivion, the better, IMO. Many of us who have been a part of the GSC community for a time are familiar with much of the dysfunctional behavior associated with the teachings and social structures Wierwille taught and/or established.

That's why I was concerned about the topic of Myth(s) of Hell.

But by all means, Mark, start a new thread with a more narrow scope about your understanding of the biblical basis for understanding hell. I'm not quite as interested in that and may not get involved in such a thread.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Rocky said:

But by all means, Mark, start a new thread with a more narrow scope about your understanding of the biblical basis for understanding hell. I'm not quite as interested in that and may not get involved in such a thread.

I hope that you are at least willing to read one word here. The word "Doctrinal" and this is the area of this forum.. And yes, Doctrinal does include a study of the bible, which you are not interested in. 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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I'll stay out of this after pointing out that both of you are approaching this from conflicting ideas of "Doctrinal."  I don't think you'll agree because there's no common ground to agree FROM.   So, I don't think this will get anywhere. 

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17 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

I hope that you are at least willing to read one word here. The word "Doctrinal" and this is the area of this forum.. And yes, Doctrinal does include a study of the bible, which you are not interested in. 

Includes but is not limited to... :spy:

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