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6 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

The final date of September 11, 4 BC, was arrived at by Ernest Martin and confirmed by Bernegger, McCrae, and John Crouch. That’s why it was in the book they wrote Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed.

David Wilensky and I were also involved in tracking this down, he more so than I. He actually worked with Bernegger and McCrae on the original manuscript of what Vic stole from them, covering it up by excommunicating Bernegger, Fanning, and McCrae at a public kangaroo court show trial in Emporia. I was there teaching an Old Testament History class for 3 weeks, and present at this dangshow on a Wednesday Corpse night from Emporia.

In those daze, the weekly corpse meetings with dictor paul teaching, were done on Wednesday’s (having been moved from what had been it’s “traditional” Tuesday night slot), with telephone hookups to all the “Root Locales”.....HQ, Emporia, Rome City and Gunnison. So this public hanging took place live at all four of these locations simultaneously in real time. Fortunately, since David’s involvement was “unofficial”, and based upon Bernegger and McCrae’s sincere respect for David's mathematical genius........

(no hyperbole here, it was fact!), and experience flying in and interpreting the data and photos of U2 missions, and the intelligence interpretation of satellite intelligence data for the DOD, CIA, and the FBI......

.....David avoided any part of this grand inquisition.

How ever you choose to determine the actual length of Christ’s life, whether he was 31 at crucifixion, or 33, the actual chronology of the crucifixion, death, and resurrection is determined not by the futile efforts to “harmonize” the Gospels, but by the Old Testament laws regarding the Feast of Passover as found in the Pentateuch. That is what I choose to rely upon. This chronology is not dependent upon which day of the week the Passover fell on. Also remember, the Hebrews used a lunar calendar  different from our familiar Julian calendar. At the “upper crust” levels of modern day textual criticism and research, the number of years Christ ministered “in the flesh” are still debated constantly. Heck! His very existence in the flesh is debated in these circles in places like Oxford, Cambridge, Jerusalem,  Harvard, University of Chicago, and a good number of other well-known and well reputed institutions of higher learning and religion.

So, if one chooses to accept the 4 BC theory, then the crucifixion could have taken place from 27 AD to 29 AD. Crouch himself still travels around to offshoots and splinter groups doing an excellent presentation of all this stuff. He and Gervais stopped and visited me on their way up to North Adams, MA, to teach this subject free of the dictor paul shadow and chains. Smart guy!

DWBH, the more I read about VPW, the more I realize that he was a scam artist as well as a lunatic. There was nothing that he came up with that was his own material. It was all stolen from others. I can't believe there are still people who think he was a great teacher. 

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11 hours ago, Raf said:

But the preparation day is not the sabbath.

Right, and the explanation that Christ was actually crucified on the preparation day and not on Passover day comes from John 19:31:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

So in 30AD, if the dates are accurate, the preparation day for the back-to-back sabbaths would have been on a Thursday.

 

Edited by Infoabsorption
wrong info

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"Co-reign"?

We're just making sh*t up now?

 

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2 hours ago, Raf said:

"Co-reign"?

We're just making .... up now?

 

I'm not a history teacher, Raf.  But, feel free to check it out yourself, if you're so inclined.  I'm not one to just "make .... up."

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Nope. Just positively cite history and rip it from its context to apply it to concepts that don't apply/

For example, there was indeed a period of a co-regency or co-principes in  AD 13, no one but no one counted that as the beginning of his reign. Tiberius was given authority during the reign of Augustus, but it was still Augustus' reign and all historians of the time would have rendered it so. History records Tiberius' reign as beginning in AD 14. For Luke to have meant otherwise would require him to say so, and he did not. Chalk one up to another failure of the church's first "real" historian.

So let's assume you're correct:

The 15th year of Tiberius, if it were in 27, would mean John started baptizing in 27 AD. Jesus could then be baptized ... starting at least six months later. Still in 27. But let's say 26 to account for variables in Jesus and John's relative birthdates.

If Jesus is baptized in 26 AD (at the age of 27 or 28, which is under 30) and has a ministry of less than 1 year, his execution is in 27 AD. The preparation day then was on a Friday.

If Jesus is baptized in 26 AD (at the age of 27 or 28, which is under 30) and has a ministry of just over a year, then he is no longer a lamb of the first year. But whatever, that puts his execution at AD 28: Preparation day was a Wednesday. (Consistent with TWI, but you need to account for him being under 30).

If Jesus is baptized in 27 (at the age of 28 or 29, which is still under 30) and has a ministry of under a year, he is executed in 28. Preparation is a Wednesday. ( Consistent with TWI, but you need to account for him being under 30). If his ministry is a little over a year, then he is not a lamb of the first year, but whatever: execution is AD 29. Preparation day is a Monday. That doesn't agree with tradition or TWI, and it far exceeds three days and three nights by any reckoning.

We've already covered a 28 baptism, I think.

Back to 26: a ministry of 3 years brings us to AD 29. Monday. More than three years but less than 4 (not consistent with any gospel) brings us to 30: Preparation is a Friday.

back to 27: three years brings us 30: Preparation is a Friday. More than 3 but less than 4 (not consistent with any gospel) brings us to 31. Preparation day is a Wednesday.

 

So what do we learn?

In order to get a baptism date before 29 AD, we have to ignore how history records the reign of Tiberius and count his preparation time under Augustus, which no historian does and Luke does not hint at. If you do that, you get several possible years for the crucifixion consistent with some mixture of tradition and TWI doctrine. Nothing is entirely consistent because Jesus is too young under dates of 26 and 27 and too old under dates of 29 and after.  You really have to bank on the imprecision of the gospels saying Jesus was about 30 when he was baptized.

Why 30?  Well, evidently that's the year when people could begin serving/ministering (Numbers 4:3) although I don't see why Jesus couldn't be younger or older. Nor do I see why Luke needed to be so imprecise. Why not just say he was 28 or 29 or 32? Because if you don't know something, you have to fudge it.

So, let's all have some fun here and say Jesus is baptized before... 29. It doesn't matter how long before. It just has to be before.

 

You guessed it: There's another problem.

There was a war in 34 AD between Aretas, King of Nabataea, and Herod Antipas, who ruled Galilee. Seems Antipas was married to Aretas' daughter, but Antipas had his sights set on another woman: His own brother's wife. Antipas and his brother's wife agreed to marry, but when Aretas' daughter found out about it, she asked her husband for permission to take a brief trip, during which she escaped and returned to her father. All this is according to Josephus. Aretas was furious and went to war with Antipas.

How long between the escape and the war did Antipas marry his sister-in-law? From Josephus' account, it was not a lot of time. He presents it as one string of events culminating in battle. A year? Two? FIVE? Let's say five years. That makes it 29 AD when the wife escapes. It's clear that the marriage of Antipas to wifey number 2 takes place after the escape. There is zero record of Aretas' daughter escaping AFTER the second marriage of Antipas.

The problem is, it's his criticism of the second marriage of Antipas that gets John thrown in prison, according to the gospels. But that is inconsistent with Josephus' description of what led to the war between Aretas and Antipas. Josephus does not say Aretas waited six, seven or eight years to wage war on Antipas. Even allowing for five seems unjustified by the account.

So what?

So if John the Baptist had time to criticize the second marriage of Herod Antipas, as the gospels claim, he had to be alive when that marriage took place. The earlier the date, the less likely that marriage would have been the proximate cause of a war as recorded by Josephus, an actual historian who did his homework and described his methodology. 

Also, the earlier you make the marriage, the shorter you make the ministry of John the Baptist, giving him less and less time to amass the following he's alleged to have had. Josephus says Antipas feared John might have the charisma to start a rebellion. That implies a significant and loyal following. That implies time.

Arrest John the baptist less than a year after he begins baptizing people, and you haven't really accounted for that following. The longer you wait, the more consistent you get with Josephus but the less consistent you get with your required Biblical timeline. Because John has to die before Jesus. And if the marriage of Antipas takes place too long before 34, it can scarely be seen by Josephus as the significant impetus for that war.

So go ahead, make the 15th year of Tiberius any year you want. But if you make it too early, you have Jesus executed before John the Baptist. And if you make it too late, Jesus gets too old for the gospel accounts. 

What to do?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

Right, and the explanation that Christ was actually crucified on the preparation day and not on Passover day comes from John 19:31:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

So in 30AD, if the dates are accurate, the preparation day for the back-to-back sabbaths would have been on a Thursday.

 

This is incorrect. In 30 AD, the preparation day, NISAN 14, was a Friday. Unless you have a better source than the one I'm consulting.

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1 hour ago, Raf said:

If Jesus is baptized in 26 AD (at the age of 27 or 28, which is under 30) and has a ministry of just over a year, then he is no longer a lamb of the first year. But whatever, that puts his execution at AD 28: Preparation day was a Wednesday. (Consistent with TWI, but you need to account for him being under 30).

Trying to make it easy for me, Raf?  Plug September 11, 3 BC as the birthdate, and voila!...  "about 30" works just fine. 
And, as for being a lamb of the first year, my understanding is that within sheep herding culture, a male lamb is typically referred to as being "of the first year" up until it sires offspring.

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1 hour ago, Raf said:

no one but no one counted that as the beginning of his reign.

not true, Raf.  But I haven't the time or resources at the moment to look it up.  It's out there, though.

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8 minutes ago, TLC said:

Trying to make it easy for me, Raf?  Plug September 11, 3 BC as the birthdate, and voila!...  "about 30" works just fine. 
And, as for being a lamb of the first year, my understanding is that within sheep herding culture, a male lamb is typically referred to as being "of the first year" up until it sires offspring.

"About 0" works precisely because it's imprecise. Why would the scripture be imprecise? Was he 30 or not? They get so specific with the age this person was when he begat that person, but when it comes to Jesus' age at the time of baptism, suddenly it's "meh, 30 more or less."

 

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1 minute ago, Raf said:

"About 0" works precisely because it's imprecise. Why would the scripture be imprecise? Was he 30 or not? They get so specific with the age this person was when he begat that person, but when it comes to Jesus' age at the time of baptism, suddenly it's "meh, 30 more or less."

 

Probably because the baptism took place shortly before his birthday (Sept. 11), call it the summer of 26 AD (and probably less than six months into John the Baptist's ministry.)  The obvious overlap in ministries would most likely put John the Baptist's death sometime in 27AD, and the crucifixion early in 28AD. 

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Convenient.

I will concede that it's a judgment call to argue that too much time passed between pre-AD 27 and AD 34 for the second marriage of Antipas to be the proximate cause of a war with Aretas. Personally, I think that's a LOT of time.

But again, we're in doctrinal and not in questioning faith, so I'm content here to find a framework that fits the available info.

Born Tishri 1 in the year we would call 3 BC.

Baptized as his 30th birthday approached in 26 AD. I'll do you one better: any reason to presume his baptism was in late summer or early fall? Because if he's baptized in the spring of 26, then there's a Passover in 26, a second Passover in 27 (the year John the Baptist dies) and a third in 28 when Jesus dies. That gives you a two year ministry and a crucifixion date of 28, in which preparation day is a Wednesday. That puts Thursday as the sabbath High Day and Saturday as the time of the resurrection, but Sunday as the first time anyone notices it.

I don't know, I'm just plugging in numbers

 

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2 hours ago, Raf said:

Convenient.

I will concede that it's a judgment call to argue that too much time passed between pre-AD 27 and AD 34 for the second marriage of Antipas to be the proximate cause of a war with Aretas. Personally, I think that's a LOT of time.

But again, we're in doctrinal and not in questioning faith, so I'm content here to find a framework that fits the available info.

Born Tishri 1 in the year we would call 3 BC.

Baptized as his 30th birthday approached in 26 AD. I'll do you one better: any reason to presume his baptism was in late summer or early fall? Because if he's baptized in the spring of 26, then there's a Passover in 26, a second Passover in 27 (the year John the Baptist dies) and a third in 28 when Jesus dies. That gives you a two year ministry and a crucifixion date of 28, in which preparation day is a Wednesday. That puts Thursday as the sabbath High Day and Saturday as the time of the resurrection, but Sunday as the first time anyone notices it.

I don't know, I'm just plugging in numbers

 

Possible, I suppose, as I don't recall there being that much difference noted between an earlier in the year vs. a late summer baptism (other than the water John would have had to stand in for extended periods probably would have been rather cold.)  Although, I do find myself drawn more to the later summer, probably due to his "immediately" being driven into the wilderness after baptism and supposing that his ministry would have commence sooner rather than later thereafter.  I've also considered the possibility that his ministry might have coincided with the "62 weeks" mentioned in Daniel (9:26), although I am quite aware of the common, and more significant, view of that being 62 weeks of years (in other words, 434 years.)  I've also wondered (given the uncertainty it seems I've seen so many times in various Hebraic calendars) how close counting backwards 62 weeks from the crucifixion (in 28AD) might land near when Purim was celebrated that year (27AD) - though, it wasn't one of the more notable or mandated holidays.  (Probably still misses by a week or two, but it was a curious thought a time or two to check it out.) 

Edited by TLC

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11 hours ago, Raf said:

oh great. Daniel again.

ROFLMAO, Raf.   Yeah, those 70 weeks. The first Rubik's cube for many!

NO comment.

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How about we focus on the Palm procession? Friday, Saturday, or Sunday? 1 or 2 according to Bullinger and Wierwille? 2 or 4 crucified with Jesus, kleptes/kleptomaniac and thief/burgurlar vs. robber, malefactor/felon? Wiewille's suggestion of using red candles when celebrating communion? Why red and not white? These are questions I ask.

Edited by Thomas Loy Bumgarner

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How many crucified with Jesus depends entirely on whether you require inerrancy. If not, the contradictions are just that. There were three crosses. If you require inerrancy, I don't see how you get away without five crosses (though you have to add words to the gospel of John either way).

How many entries into Jerusalem? Same thing. Each gospel records one and disagrees on when. The simple solution is one, with writers disagreeing on when. If you require inerrancy, fine, it happened twice. 

Same with the cleansing of the Temple. Did it happen at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as in John, or near the end, as in all the other gospels? Again, depends on inerrancy. Each gospel records one and only one cleansing of the Temple. Maybe it happened twice and none of the gospel writers noticed or cared.

As for the candles, I'm not seeing the Biblical significance. Care to elaborate?

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Just a guess on my part. I'm thinking the red is supposed to symbolize the blood. But who knows? Maybe Wierwille got them on the cheap and didn't want to waste them.

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Candles, what candles?  I never heard anything about candles of any color. 

And I missed the bit where Jesus says, "Light a candle in remembrance of me."

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In another post here on GSC recently, Supposedly Wierwille gave instructions on how to locally celebrate Communion. He mentions a dish/plate(paten) for bread(roll/hamburger bun) and a chalice/cup for wine/grape juice, and to light 2 red candles, and to use a coffee table (altar) with a large white cloth/towel(mensa). Why did he suggest red? why not white? or better yet either blue or green candles(TV soap opera Dark Shadows)?

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Bread shouldn't be roll or bun.  They contain yeast (leaven) which shouldn't be present.

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On 4/10/2019 at 8:26 AM, Infoabsorption said:

DWBH, the more I read about VPW, the more I realize that he was a scam artist as well as a lunatic. There was nothing that he came up with that was his own material. It was all stolen from others. I can't believe there are still people who think he was a great teacher. 

Info, I remember when I first read, "JCOPS." What a book; I knew VPW had nothing to do with it.  It was light years ahead of the usual TWI drivel.  The usual TWI book was poorly-written, and dry as He-l.

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On 4/10/2019 at 5:52 PM, TLC said:

the water John would have had to stand in for extended periods probably would have been rather cold. 

It is desert. The average water temp in the Jordan River only  varies from around 50°F in January to 60°F in August. I am not convinced water temp affected the baptisms. :wink2:

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On 4/12/2019 at 3:11 PM, Twinky said:

Bread shouldn't be roll or bun.  They contain yeast (leaven) which shouldn't be present.

VPW claimed that Holy Communion was not the Passover literally re-enacted, so the bread was white enriched flour and a yeast roll or hamburger bun was fine for Communion. He rejected wafers and matza, but saltine crackers or Ritzs was ok.

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Bullinger claimed(likewise Wierwille)2 different Palm processions , one on Friday with Jesus cursing a fig tree and mourning that Jerusalem would reject him, the 2nd on Saturday morning, both a donkey and it's colt, disciples notice weathered fig tree dead, Sanhedrin say quit singing by people because it is the Sabbath and is disrectable to tradition, Jesus says the very stones would praise him, he turns over the tables of moneychangers and shoos away the animals(texts does not say he bullwhipped the people or clergy). First procession only has palms, 2nd has both palms and cloaks/clothing. Lamsa and his protege Rocco Errico, and Pillai make similar claims. Discussions.

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Not

one

gospel

records

two

entries.

 Never underestimate the silliness of inerrancy. If you just accept the fact that gospels can contradict each other, all the problems created by those contradictions disappear.

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