if you come here talking AT people, declaring you're right by fiat and anyone who disagrees with you is arguing with God, you won't get anywhere with anyone. We average one of those about every six months, and they all either storm off indignant or begin posting abusively and get kicked out for breaking the rules. (The rules are lenient and forgiving, but they exist.) It is rare when one of them actually stops to listen and dialogue with the rest of us, and realizes they can learn something. The posters here represent a number of different positions and approaches. You can learn from different approaches at the same time, all without following "the party line" because there is none, here.
There's a lot to be gained for SLOWING DOWN, and really interacting with everyone else instead of talking AT them. Many have benefited from it in the past, myself included. The choice is yours.]
Okay, no answer then. Not interested in lengthy essays by other people; you have a voice. Use your own words. Be succinct, if you care to respond.
Over and out. Bye.
Dear Twinky
Sure- I would be happy to answer your question as per your request
I wanted to give some thought so I can present it to you as succinctly as possible
so please understand I am not ignoring you as i need some time
I won’t attempt to answer your question, Mark – but I did look into the book Waxit referred to in his reply to Twinky – “If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.”
here is a portion from the above "The Importance of the Sabbath":
“Now let’s go to Hebrews 4, and let’s understand something concerning the Old Testament. We’re going to make this just a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some of the questions that some of the difficulties people are bringing up are related in some of the things that we cover here. Hebrews 4:4, now we’re going to come back to Hebrews 4 and look at it a little later because we are going to see that one of the major teachings of Jesus Christ did in fact, have to do with the Sabbath day and with your capacity to work and with your capacity to eat and drink, verse 2, Hebrews 4: “For truly, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also did…” Who is he talking about? The children of Israel. So they had the gospel preached unto them in the form that God gave that to them. “…but the preaching of the word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard.” So they had the gospel preached to them as well. What is this telling us? This is telling us that the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament, does it not? Yes, indeed it surely, surely does.”
Maybe it’s just me – but after reading both articles on the Sabbath, with the lack of comprehensiveness and thoroughness neither article impresses me as being an in-depth study of the Bible – but I guess that’s a matter of opinion depending on one’s idea of what is in-depth. I think the author (Fred Coulter) is selective in his references (cherry picking) , and ignores anypassages that do not agree with his viewpoint – as you (Mark ) pointed out by Waxit's lack or little use of referencing the writings of the Apostle Paul…Another thing I find confusing and a misrepresentation is how the author defines “the gospel” – saying “the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament,”…well, I don’t want to derail this thread – but in Christianity the term “the gospel” or "good news" usually refers to the story of Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
Please excuse my post if I have been mistaken in the book Waxit was referring to.
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........? Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc
Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........? Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc
Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping , Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?
Hi Waxit - let's get to it:
“Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?” Waxit
== == ==
Yes – I can do that by going back to the passage you referred to in your starting post for this thread – I’ll include some of the verses around it for context:
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's…Romans 14: 2-8 KJV
This passage is discussed in “Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans” by R.C.H. Lenski, copyright 1936, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. Edition First Printing, August 1998…Before I quote from this commentary I just wanted to give a definition of a word that Lenski uses in the book. The word is adiaphoron which is a “Noun. adiaphoron (plural adiaphora) An indifferent matter. (philosophy) A matter that is morally neutral. (theology) Something neither forbidden nor commanded by scripture.”
On pages 820, 821 and 823, Lenski says the following of the passages in Romans 14:
In regard to any adiaphoron the first and essential thing is that each, in his own mind, consider the Lord.
Note that the double statement about days is formulated like the one about food (v.2). Even the thought is similar, save that it is stated in reverse order. One eats all food and prizes all of it equally highly, while another eats one kind of food and prizes it higher than the other kind…It is apparent where the weakness lies; it is in him who regards some food and some days beneath other food and other days…
…We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food.
It is to be noted that Paul has no admonition regarding this adiaphoron about days as he has about food in v.2. This was an adiaphoron regarding which no one looked down on another or, on the other hand, criticized another. All that Paul needs to say is that each one should be assured in his own mind…
…Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.”
End of excerpts
== == ==
It seems pretty obvious to me – not only from simply reading the context of Romans 14 but also following the arguments in Lenski’s commentary – that keeping the Sabbath is now a morally neutral matter and is not something that the Christian is commanded to keep.
Paul said as much in another epistle:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance.
I would like to add something about keeping the Sabbath from “The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought” edited by Adrian Hastings, Alistair Mason and Hugh Pyper, Oxford University Press, copyright 2000, page 634:
“Sabbatarianism
Designates the view that divine commandment requires one day a week be set aside for strictly religious use. Within the Christian tradition, such a day includes community gathering, corporate worship, personal devotions, and charitable works.
While sabbatarianism boasts a long tradition, it has remained a point of contention within the church. Two issues typically arise. The first concerns whether the OT Sabbath commandment, while clearly mandating a day of rest for ancient Israel, applies to the Christian church in the same manner. Most traditions today take the position formulated by the early church in the first two centuries, which contends that the Sabbath commandment of keeping it under OT law no longer applies in the same literal sense to Christians under the New Covenant. Through the death and Resurrection of Christ, the church has entered into a new epoch – one characterized by an ongoing, spiritual rest in Christ (Gal. 4:8-11; Col. 2:16; Heb. 3:7-11). While the keeping of Sunday, especially through celebration of the Eucharist, in some way replaced the Sabbath, Christians fulfil the Sabbath commandment more fundamentally by ‘resting’ from both sin and self-justifying works. The church thus obeys the original sabbath commandment, but in a spiritual fashion through life in Christ.”
End of Excerpts
== == ==
== == ==
Changing gears
– I want to briefly address “the 4 crucified with Christ” – off topic from this thread but you brought it up here –
“No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him..” Waxit
== == == ==
To be honest, I have a difficult time trusting your analytical skills regarding Fred’s teaching on keeping the Sabbath, when you say there is overwhelming evidence that there were actually four crucified with Jesus. I did challenge the validity of the 4 crucified teaching in a previous post mentioning 4 crucified - I think the teaching is a confusing hot mess of butchering scripture to gloss over the obvious discrepancies in the Gospels…that’s why I recommended the book Making Sense of the Bible which gets into great detail on how the Gospels were COMPILED (which means to put together documents, selections, or other materials from various sources). Makes a lot more sense of why there are discrepancies – and you don’t have to fabricate a ridiculous 2-additional-crucified-guys story that’s not even alluded to in the Gospels…I will say this, there's overwhelming evidence of a screwy botched up patchwork of scripture in the teaching of four crucified...many other Grease Spotters have delved into the 4-others-crucified-snow-job - here’s a couple you might want to look at:
And there's a ton more you can look at by using the search feature at the top right of Grease Spot's web page...hey don't just stop at 4 crucified - use the search feature to check out other nuggets of fool's gold from PFAL - just punch in the topic in the search window.
Needless to say, you might want to reevaluate your analytical skills - in other words - maybe you need to reconsider any “litmus-tests-for-spirituality” or criteria by which something is judged that you assume will cut the mustard. I mean that in the nicest way...after leaving a cult that continuously puts the kibosh on critical thinking - we all have a lot to work on now - those once "atrophied muscles" in our gray matter . We all have a long way to go - our critical thinking skills should always be under development - always improving - and maybe we won't figure it all out in our lifetime - but in the meantime - the fun is in the journey - yes, you're on a new and intriguing journey - what freedom we have! We get to choose our own path !!!...I choose according to what makes sense to me - remember Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." God gave us the powers of reason for a reason! ...and so many things in my belief system are in a state of flux...and I'm okay with that...I'm occasionally reevaluating some things anyway - I do practice what I preach ..and so it goes - learning from others and figuring out some things myself...Grease Spot is a great place for helping to develop critical thinking skills.
That’s all for now.
Happy Easter
He is risen
Edited by T-Bone formatting, typos and more than you bargained for
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........? Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc
Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?
"I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective..."
There you go... I highlighted it for you. Do you still not understand?
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV
Quote
Deuteronomy 21:22-23
22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.
NKJV
Roman citizens were perhaps not killed in this manner as they believed that only foreign citizens to be executed in this manner. Since Jesus was a Jewish man from her mother. The Romans may have followed Jewish ways of death and nailed his cross to a large tree. Regarding the possibility of 4 crucified with Christ, instead of 2. This is not important to me. However, Jesus after being nailed to his cross could have had the cross nailed to a large tree. With another two also possibly nailed to the same tree. Then with three in a triangular position with Jesus possibly in the middle of the triangle. The other two could have been crucified with Jesus crucified with one on the left of Jesus and one on the right side of Jesus. A simple triangle. Yes the cross of Jesus needed to be nailed to wood in order to stand and not fall. Either that or they needed to use cement for the foundation of his cross and then have the cement dry, which takes time. And yes, a tree does have wood and is the source of wood.
Quote
Acts 5:29-30
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew andhanged on a tree.
KJV
Quote
Acts 13:29-30 29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead:
KJV
Quote
John 19:17-18
17 Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18 Here they crucified him, and with him two others — one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
NIV
However, the word one seen in the above verse is not part of the Greek text using my biblical study software. Therefore it could have been two or four crucified with Jesus.
The above relates to Waxit's comment below.
Quote
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind. To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesn't agree so I left it at that so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4.
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........? Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc
Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?
Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –
What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?
Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –
What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?
Can I PM you? There are a couple of things I would like to point out with your line
of thinking in regards to the sabbath that probably will make you sit up and think
Besides that a couple of questions:
Have you read "Romes Challenge to the Protestants"> These are historical facts well worth reading
You did take the pfal class didnt you? Do you disagree that there were 4 crucified with Christ?
Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –
What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?
I was simply editing my previous post, but it resulted in a new post. Here is my editing.
Yes the cross of Jesus that he carried to his crucifixion needed to be nailed or roped to a tree or wood with a foundation in order to stand and not fall while Jesus was hanging on it.
Can I PM you? There are a couple of things I would like to point out with your line
of thinking in regards to the sabbath that probably will make you sit up and think
Besides that a couple of questions:
Have you read "Romes Challenge to the Protestants"> These are historical facts well worth reading
You did take the pfal class didnt you? Do you disagree that there were 4 crucified with Christ?
I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here.
I have not read the Rome’s challenge yet.
Yes - during my 12 year stint with TWI - I did take (and also help run) the PFAL class numerous times including the live PFAL ‘77 class...and yes I disagree on the claim that there were four crucified with Christ - I thought I was very clear on that in my previous posts. Feel free to post your evidence supporting the 4 crucified theory on this thread also.
I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here.
I have not read the Rome’s challenge yet.
Yes - during my 12 year stint with TWI - I did take (and also help run) the PFAL class numerous times including the live PFAL ‘77 class...and yes I disagree on the claim that there were four crucified with Christ - I thought I was very clear on that in my previous posts. Feel free to post your evidence supporting the 4 crucified theory on this thread also.
I dont mind having a look at your thread of 2 or 4 crucified on gsc open forum- let me know the title of this particular thread
but the sabbath thread- I will have to pm then it's up to you what you think and if
you have any questions- you can ask by PM
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestantants then you it will give you a fresh
perspective on 7th day sabbath when I PM you
I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here.
Me too. Waxit's proposition was raised in open forum; should be responded to in open forum. Waxit, I have your PM. A page and a half is hardly succinct. I'd expected no more than two paragraphs.
I am not remotely interested in reading a 80+ page document about a topic I'm not bothered about, and where its proponent is not concerned to make it interesting or relevant.
It may be better if any discussion of how many crucified be kept to those threads, rather than jumbling all that up, too, on this thread. Does it matter, in context of this thread, if it were 2, 4 or a hundred or more?
I dont mind having a look at your thread of 2 or 4 crucified on gsc open forum- let me know the title of this particular thread
but the sabbath thread- I will have to pm then it's up to you what you think and if
you have any questions- you can ask by PM
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestantants then you it will give you a fresh
perspective on 7th day sabbath when I PM you
Never mind, you don’t have to bother reading the two posts I gave the links to earlier – you seem pretty convinced there were 4 crucified.
I’m not interested in reading Rome’s Challenge to the Protestants which I found on the same website as “God’s Plan for Mankind” – though I did manage to read its two articles on the Sabbath – nor am I interested in having a private conversation about any of this stuff – - - - and here’s why:
- - If you feel you’ve been misunderstood or incorrectly interpreted in an open forum – what will rectify that in a private conversation? I am the same in private as in public. I use the same vocabulary, refer to the same books and experiences, I try to be empathetic, honest and upfront - whether in public or private. I'm not interested in trying to fix you nor should you feel you have to fix me.
- - I find open forums are a great way for folks to connect on various levels (socially, intellectually, emotionally, shared experiences) and to hone our critical thinking and communication skills – it has quite a positive cumulative effect if folks are polite, respectful and follow forum rules.
- - My time is just as valuable as yours and everyone else’s. Since you appear to be so overly enthusiastic about “God’s Plan” and “Rome’s Challenge” why don’t you save everyone a lot of time and copy and paste select salient points from them and put in a post - and we'll all take it from there .
- - And frankly, at this point I’m not so sure about your intentions. I mean, if we can’t discuss something as adults being honest and respectful out in the open why would I want to discuss that “something” in private? I did not spend 12 years of my life in an abusive and manipulative organization, going WOW and joining the Way Corps and not learn to be wary of underhanded approaches – if it’s one thing that some TWI leadership are good at, it’s manipulating folks in a clever or unscrupulous manner…I usually try to be polite – but if attacked I just might bite! ... WordWolf mentioned the rules earlier…I try to abide by them – though I have gotten in trouble a time or two …but anyway, I think a good rule of thumb for forums and private messages is just don’t say stuff that you would be embarrassed or ashamed of if it was posted on a billboard by a major freeway for everyone to see.
…sorry - I often get verbose
To summarize:
1. forget about the stuff I said regarding 4 crucified,
2. I’m not interested in any more reading assignments,
3. copy and paste in a post the salient points from your favorite docs,
4. be yourself and be courageous in open forums,
5. and until further notice do NOT - under any circumstances – attempt to pm me (thank you for asking me if you could).
when someone here wants to switch from public threads to private conversations, it means one of 2 things.
1) I think I know your (member of family) but we're not supposed to post people's legal names here unless they're public figures like twi's board, so I'm contacting you privately to discuss knowing people in common and wanting to get personal.
or
2) I have something to hide, AND I want to recruit people for my new enterprise. Since I'm trying to make claims that won't stand up to scrutiny, I'm trying to keep them secret- thus the privacy. I'm trying to recruit you now.
So, there's going to be some reluctance- from painful experience from all the ex-twi splinters that have tried to recruit here.]
I dont mind having a look at your thread of 2 or 4 crucified on gsc open forum- let me know the title of this particular thread
but the sabbath thread- I will have to pm then it's up to you what you think and if
you have any questions- you can ask by PM Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestantants then you it will give you a fresh
perspective on 7th day sabbath when I PM you
if you come here talking AT people, declaring you're right by fiat and anyone who disagrees with you is arguing with God, you won't get anywhere with anyone. We average one of those about every six months, and they all either storm off indignant or begin posting abusively and get kicked out for breaking the rules. (The rules are lenient and forgiving, but they exist.) It is rare when one of them actually stops to listen and dialogue with the rest of us, and realizes they can learn something. The posters here represent a number of different positions and approaches. You can learn from different approaches at the same time, all without following "the party line" because there is none, here.
There's a lot to be gained for SLOWING DOWN, and really interacting with everyone else instead of talking AT them. Many have benefited from it in the past, myself included. The choice is yours.]
{Since I didn't mention it last time,
we have to make our own cases for the claims we make. When someone asks you to explain something, or to provide evidence for something, and you respond with a homework assignment ("read so-and-so's book", "read so-and-so's website"), however phrased, you're going to lose your audience. It looks like you can't possibly support your claims or even explain your positions clearly. Both are signs of not understanding what you're saying despite saying it.]
…We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food.
Hi T-Bone
This thread on the sabbath is going to be a long drawn out discussion.
|I am not interested in long theological debates about technical biblical analysis. It's tiring just to read through
I have brought up the quotes you made to point out some things- in future we will stick to chapter and verse
So can i just ask you if you wish to discuss this just to limit it : scripture verses that i quoted or bible verses you want to bring up (I am not interested in any highly technical analysis)
9 hours ago, WordWolf said:
I have learnt from my mistakes about relying on what this person said or that person said or what Lenski said- based on my experiences with twi and vw"s
manipulative tactics to shape my thinking and the sex pevert succeeded because I was stupid enough to allow him and not check him out
We are to study diligently and then go to God in prayer to reveal the truth .
If we are humble and meek enough to admit that
we need God to open our eyes beyond our natural understanding using our brain
Matt 13:10-13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Why were the pharisees and the rest not being plainly shown the truth? because they thought they knew it all-were puffed up and really
were not interested in seeking God for the answers and will only continue to argue
Why were the apostles being given spiritual understanding?
The apostles humbled themselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Peter said. to the Lord "To whom shall we go- you have
the words of Life. All things that pertain to life and godliness is in the bible. We must go to the word of God and pray to God himself
to see if we are on the right track
Paul was a highly educated man who humbled himself to the Lord Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus
After 3 days, he received sight physically and spiritually
If you remember I asked you for a bible verse that shows the insignificance of the sabbath and
you started out with a detailed explanation of what someone else and added your explanation before finally giving me the bible verse
A diligent and prayerful study of the word of God (bible? -yes but no I wont trust any "intellectuals" or any lenski who are superior in knowledge
The only source I can trust is God Himself. I know this from personal experience.
When I got of TWI- I prayed and cried out to God to show me the truth- having come out of the trinitarian background into the non trinitarian TWI
The Lord systematically took out from false doctrine to where I am now in faithfully keeping the 7th day sabbath.
and the bible verses started leaping out in a spiritual sense when i read them
I dont really care about 2/4 crucified or 3/6 denials. I believe there are 4 crucified
and Peter denied thrice exactly as Jesus said but if i can be proven otherwise, I dont really care
However the 7th day sabbath is a major commandment so significant but it
has been downgraded into insignificance by satan and his army of intellectuals.
Remember Mars Hill- these were intellectuals who specialised in knowledge gathering
or something interesting, while Moses went directly to the source -God and
Moses was considered the meekest person by God and had a great relationship with God
I may not be a technical bible analyst like you are and you may question my
analytical skills but I know without a doubt that God led me to where I am because I
cried out to him and He answered me
The danger of being highly spohisticated and technical:
2 Timothy 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Ok! Your quote about someone else's brilliant analysis: What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that
a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem,
still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost
This above statement is faulty in that it is pure conjecture on the part of the person making this statement and a classic example of
someone making a statement on something that he is assuming and wants everyone else to assume
because it backs up the point he wants you to believe
Why would Paul be addressing the few jewish christians iand ignore the largely gentile christians
population in Romans?
Romans 14:1-5
14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
The book of Romans was written by Paul from Corinth to the christians converts in Rome (largely gentile)
The subject here is focussing on food and what particular days they ate the food. The gentile converts were the ones who were weak in faith
having come out of entirely different pagan background and the christian biblical practices was entirely new to them. They were used to their old religious customs
For instance during the season of lent, courtesy of the pagan rc chucrch, they choose not to eat meat on fridays
Also one can tell Paul in this instance is not talking to the christian jews minority because in vs 2- he is saying for one believeth that he may eat
all things. Tell me which religious jew anywhere will agree to eat pork
So to use Romans 14:1-5 and say- Paul is saying it doesnt really matter which day of the week one regards as the sabbath is not correct
because Romans 14:1-5 is not talking about the sabbath. Paul is talking about food eaten on particular days that gentile christians were accustomed to
Your quote: …Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.”
My answer: Jesus Christ said, "I am the same yesterday, today and forever- (Heb 13:8)
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not legalism- it is obeying the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments
Acts 4:19 19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
7th day Sabbath is ordained by God whereas Sunday keeping is the tradition of Man (Rome' Challenge To The Protestants)
The above statement that the apostles selected sunday as a day of collective worship cannot be true
It is also a known historical fact that beginning from the time of the disciples of Jesus Christ through to His resurrection
through to the early christians and after- For over 400 yearsThe 7th day (saturday) sabbath was always observed as the day for sabbath keeping, there was no such thing as a sunday service or sabbath
So how can early christians relax the rule and gradually ease into sunday keeping when there was no such historical recorrds
Your quote:
Paul said as much in another epistle:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance.
The above verse is Colossians 2:16
Again lust like Romans 14, it is out of context here you fail to take into account to whom it is written.
Paul here is addressing the Colossians who are gentile converts.
So if you correctly take this into account about whom it was written (i.e gentiles) then it is incorrect
of what you are postulating that Paul is remindingthe folks of the unimportance of the sabbath.
That is absolutely not true.
In this case since it is the colossians (i.e gentile converts) that Paul is addressing, you will know that after having
becoming a christian, a gentile who is used to pagan practices and non observance of the sabbath, having his own pagan
worship previously now finds himself observing the sabbath on the 7th day.
So obviously these gentile christians will be given a tough time by friends and families who are unconverted and will be subject
of being mocked and ridiculed by pagans for keeping the 7th day sabbath from sunset to sunset.
This is why Paul is telling the Colossians not to take notice of people who are judging you on account of your biblical practice of keeping sabbath days (weekly and annual) observance among other things
If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest." Don't envy you that task.
It's quite easy actually
The seven day weekly cycle was established by God in Gen 2:1-2 and is not obscured and is not tied to any patterns
or alignment of stars, sun or moon. It is a continous serial counting of days one after another from the time God set it
in motion -1st day of the week to 7th day of the week and it is unbroken till our present day.
The fact that the days of the week have pagan names doesnt alter the sequence from 1st day- Sunday to 7th day Saturday
Ezra the priest during the time of the jews in captivity in Babylon saw no need to change the jewish calendar and
adopted the Babylonian calendar -
The names of the month were numbered initially and latest Bablonian names like Nisan- 1st Month were used
All during this time the weekly cycle never changed- Sunday (named after the sun) was the first day of week and Saturday
(named after saturn) was 7th day of the week. The Jews wherever they went including Jesus Christ who should know
as he was responsible for the creation of days in Genesis
were always careful to observe the 7th day for sabbath keeping as God commanded
From 46 bc upto 1582 ad- The western world adopted the Julian Calendar- Nothing changed materially The
Julian calendar was an improvement only on account of the fact in that it kept the months in sync with the season.
The weekly cycle was still the same- 1st day to 7th day still the same
In 1582 ad- the old Julian calendar which was 10 days out of sync with the solar system
was replaced by the Gregorian calendar . which is what we have today, The Gregorian calendar
removed the 10 days which was out of sync- so the chop was made on Thursday Oct 4, 1582
so the next day which was supposed to be Friday, Oct 5th 1582 became Friday, Oct 15th, 1582
so the weekly cycle was still the same now to the present day- 1st day -Sunday to 7th day Saturday
Hi T-Bone This thread on the sabbath is going to be a long drawn out discussion.
|I am not interested in long theological debates about technical biblical analysis. It's tiring just to read through
I have brought up the quotes you made to point out some things- in future we will stick to chapter and verse
So can i just ask you if you wish to discuss this just to limit it :
scripture verses that i quoted or bible verses you want to bring up (I am not interested in any highly technical analysis)
(snip)
Remember Mars Hill- these were intellectualswho specialised in knowledge gathering
or something interesting, while Moses went directly to the source -God and
Moses was considered the meekest person by God and had a great relationship with God
I may not be a technical bible analyst like you are and you may question my
analytical skills but I know without a doubt that God led me to where I am because I
cried out to him and He answered me
(snip)
Ok – got it – since you insist on controlling this discussion, I might play along with your game for a while - but I hope you won’t get too upset when folks call you out on the way you keep changing the rules…
… usually when I see this (vying for control of a conversation) starting to happen in a discussion I tend to think the person wanting to direct the course of the conversation is trying to steer things to their advantage, often by setting limits on what others can use as a reference - and in your case also hypocritical since you want to recommend folks read "God's Plan" and the "Rome's Challenge". Another thing I’ve got to get off my chest before resuming this “game” is that if it’s a conversation about something in the Bible, another straw that control-freaks grab at is “the-old-sincerity- plea” saying stuff along the lines of something like “I’ve prayed about this and God led me to this – he answered my prayer.” Sorry, but if there’s one good warning I remember wierwille teaching in PFAL is that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So I’m not buying it – I really don’t care how you arrived at your position or how enlightened you think you are – go pitch crazy-talk somewhere else.
…and to me, all that manipulative stuff in itself often indicates the person wanting such control is unable to maintain or defend their position against attack or objection.
…that being said I’ll post the two passages I posted earlier – and in keeping with your preference for just chapter and verse, I'm including the whole chapter of each for context – and I’ll keep my comments afterward as brief as possible.
== == ==
Romans 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
== == == ==
Colossians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
Alive in Christ
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]
Let No One Disqualify You
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
== == == ==
…and now Ladies and Gentlemen… drum roll please…here with us today to make some brief comments about Romans 14 and Colossians 2 …is the dude who just returned from a hill of Mars bars…the man…the myth…the intergalactic big head known to his friends as . . . .T-Bone:
"Ah shucks, you can call me T. well, folks it seems pretty obvious to me that Romans 14 and Colossians 2 show that keeping the Sabbath is not something Christians are commanded to follow."
Dear T-Bone
I just want to let you know I had no intention of controlling anything
Just keeping the conversation focussed on scripture instead of going all over the place
I wanted to be sincere with you about my experience and the honest truth and you dont have to buy anything
because I am not selling anything
The reason i shared with you is, so you can see the benefit that when there is direct honest communication with God
and when God is personally involved in our bible study, it's makes a huge difference
But if you think it's all a scam and I am a con then so be it. I will let God be the judge. I cannot change what you think about me-
and you can say whatever you want. So it looks like from a nice guy, you are now turning into the green incredible hulk
Hopefully, you will come back to normal bill because i am ending this conversation
Only God knows my heart and I dont have any more time for this sort of carry on.
You quoted 2 scriptures in Romans and Colossians and both were taken out of
context in regards to sabbath keeping and you didnt have any answer to that
but instead you get upset because I am not interested in technical analysis
I know this is going nowhere and it's completely pointless discussing any further
You think I am playing a game- To be honest, I have better things that I can do with my time
and it is quite evident- you have spat the dummy
So as of now, I would like to stop all conversations with you in regards to the thread, I started
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
WordWolf
[BTW,
if you come here talking AT people, declaring you're right by fiat and anyone who disagrees with you is arguing with God, you won't get anywhere with anyone. We average one of those about every six months, and they all either storm off indignant or begin posting abusively and get kicked out for breaking the rules. (The rules are lenient and forgiving, but they exist.) It is rare when one of them actually stops to listen and dialogue with the rest of us, and realizes they can learn something. The posters here represent a number of different positions and approaches. You can learn from different approaches at the same time, all without following "the party line" because there is none, here.
There's a lot to be gained for SLOWING DOWN, and really interacting with everyone else instead of talking AT them. Many have benefited from it in the past, myself included. The choice is yours.]
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Waxit
Dear Twinky
Edited by WaxitSure- I would be happy to answer your question as per your request
I wanted to give some thought so I can present it to you as succinctly as possible
so please understand I am not ignoring you as i need some time
Can I PM you as Waysider suggested?
Regards
Waxit
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Waxit
No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........? Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc
Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?
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T-Bone
Hi Waxit - let's get to it:
“Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?” Waxit
== == ==
Yes – I can do that by going back to the passage you referred to in your starting post for this thread – I’ll include some of the verses around it for context:
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's…Romans 14: 2-8 KJV
This passage is discussed in “Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans” by R.C.H. Lenski, copyright 1936, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. Edition First Printing, August 1998…Before I quote from this commentary I just wanted to give a definition of a word that Lenski uses in the book. The word is adiaphoron which is a “Noun. adiaphoron (plural adiaphora) An indifferent matter. (philosophy) A matter that is morally neutral. (theology) Something neither forbidden nor commanded by scripture.”
On pages 820, 821 and 823, Lenski says the following of the passages in Romans 14:
In regard to any adiaphoron the first and essential thing is that each, in his own mind, consider the Lord.
Note that the double statement about days is formulated like the one about food (v.2). Even the thought is similar, save that it is stated in reverse order. One eats all food and prizes all of it equally highly, while another eats one kind of food and prizes it higher than the other kind…It is apparent where the weakness lies; it is in him who regards some food and some days beneath other food and other days…
…We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food.
It is to be noted that Paul has no admonition regarding this adiaphoron about days as he has about food in v.2. This was an adiaphoron regarding which no one looked down on another or, on the other hand, criticized another. All that Paul needs to say is that each one should be assured in his own mind…
…Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.”
End of excerpts
== == ==
It seems pretty obvious to me – not only from simply reading the context of Romans 14 but also following the arguments in Lenski’s commentary – that keeping the Sabbath is now a morally neutral matter and is not something that the Christian is commanded to keep.
Paul said as much in another epistle:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance.
I would like to add something about keeping the Sabbath from “The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought” edited by Adrian Hastings, Alistair Mason and Hugh Pyper, Oxford University Press, copyright 2000, page 634:
“Sabbatarianism
Designates the view that divine commandment requires one day a week be set aside for strictly religious use. Within the Christian tradition, such a day includes community gathering, corporate worship, personal devotions, and charitable works.
While sabbatarianism boasts a long tradition, it has remained a point of contention within the church. Two issues typically arise. The first concerns whether the OT Sabbath commandment, while clearly mandating a day of rest for ancient Israel, applies to the Christian church in the same manner. Most traditions today take the position formulated by the early church in the first two centuries, which contends that the Sabbath commandment of keeping it under OT law no longer applies in the same literal sense to Christians under the New Covenant. Through the death and Resurrection of Christ, the church has entered into a new epoch – one characterized by an ongoing, spiritual rest in Christ (Gal. 4:8-11; Col. 2:16; Heb. 3:7-11). While the keeping of Sunday, especially through celebration of the Eucharist, in some way replaced the Sabbath, Christians fulfil the Sabbath commandment more fundamentally by ‘resting’ from both sin and self-justifying works. The church thus obeys the original sabbath commandment, but in a spiritual fashion through life in Christ.”
End of Excerpts
== == ==
== == ==
Changing gears
– I want to briefly address “the 4 crucified with Christ” – off topic from this thread but you brought it up here –
“No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him..” Waxit
== == == ==
To be honest, I have a difficult time trusting your analytical skills regarding Fred’s teaching on keeping the Sabbath, when you say there is overwhelming evidence that there were actually four crucified with Jesus. I did challenge the validity of the 4 crucified teaching in a previous post mentioning 4 crucified - I think the teaching is a confusing hot mess of butchering scripture to gloss over the obvious discrepancies in the Gospels…that’s why I recommended the book Making Sense of the Bible which gets into great detail on how the Gospels were COMPILED (which means to put together documents, selections, or other materials from various sources). Makes a lot more sense of why there are discrepancies – and you don’t have to fabricate a ridiculous 2-additional-crucified-guys story that’s not even alluded to in the Gospels…I will say this, there's overwhelming evidence of a screwy botched up patchwork of scripture in the teaching of four crucified...many other Grease Spotters have delved into the 4-others-crucified-snow-job - here’s a couple you might want to look at:
Oakspear comments on 4 crucified
Raf comments on 4 crucified
And there's a ton more you can look at by using the search feature at the top right of Grease Spot's web page...hey don't just stop at 4 crucified - use the search feature to check out other nuggets of fool's gold from PFAL - just punch in the topic in the search window.
Needless to say, you might want to reevaluate your analytical skills - in other words - maybe you need to reconsider any “litmus-tests-for-spirituality” or criteria by which something is judged that you assume will cut the mustard. I mean that in the nicest way...after leaving a cult that continuously puts the kibosh on critical thinking - we all have a lot to work on now - those once "atrophied muscles" in our gray matter
. We all have a long way to go - our critical thinking skills should always be under development - always improving - and maybe we won't figure it all out in our lifetime - but in the meantime - the fun is in the journey - yes, you're on a new and intriguing journey - what freedom we have! We get to choose our own path !!!...I choose according to what makes sense to me - remember Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." God gave us the powers of reason for a reason! ...and so many things in my belief system are in a state of flux...and I'm okay with that...I'm occasionally reevaluating some things anyway - I do practice what I preach 
..and so it goes - learning from others and figuring out some things myself...Grease Spot is a great place for helping to develop critical thinking skills.
That’s all for now.
Happy Easter
He is risen
Edited by T-Boneformatting, typos and more than you bargained for
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Rocky
"I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective..."
There you go... I highlighted it for you. Do you still not understand?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Roman citizens were perhaps not killed in this manner as they believed that only foreign citizens to be executed in this manner. Since Jesus was a Jewish man from her mother. The Romans may have followed Jewish ways of death and nailed his cross to a large tree. Regarding the possibility of 4 crucified with Christ, instead of 2. This is not important to me. However, Jesus after being nailed to his cross could have had the cross nailed to a large tree. With another two also possibly nailed to the same tree. Then with three in a triangular position with Jesus possibly in the middle of the triangle. The other two could have been crucified with Jesus crucified with one on the left of Jesus and one on the right side of Jesus. A simple triangle. Yes the cross of Jesus needed to be nailed to wood in order to stand and not fall. Either that or they needed to use cement for the foundation of his cross and then have the cement dry, which takes time. And yes, a tree does have wood and is the source of wood.
However, the word one seen in the above verse is not part of the Greek text using my biblical study software. Therefore it could have been two or four crucified with Jesus.
The above relates to Waxit's comment below.
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T-Bone
Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –
What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?
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Waxit
Hi Twinky
I will pm you and we can continue our conversation there
Cheers
Waxit
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Waxit
Can I PM you? There are a couple of things I would like to point out with your line
of thinking in regards to the sabbath that probably will make you sit up and think
Besides that a couple of questions:
Have you read "Romes Challenge to the Protestants"> These are historical facts well worth reading
You did take the pfal class didnt you? Do you disagree that there were 4 crucified with Christ?
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Waxit
BTW how can I PM you?
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Mark Sanguinetti
I was simply editing my previous post, but it resulted in a new post. Here is my editing.
Yes the cross of Jesus that he carried to his crucifixion needed to be nailed or roped to a tree or wood with a foundation in order to stand and not fall while Jesus was hanging on it.
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T-Bone
I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here.
I have not read the Rome’s challenge yet.
Yes - during my 12 year stint with TWI - I did take (and also help run) the PFAL class numerous times including the live PFAL ‘77 class...and yes I disagree on the claim that there were four crucified with Christ - I thought I was very clear on that in my previous posts. Feel free to post your evidence supporting the 4 crucified theory on this thread also.
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Waxit
I do not want the opinion of anyone else because I frequently get misunderstood
I prefer to dialogue one on one
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Waxit
I dont mind having a look at your thread of 2 or 4 crucified on gsc open forum- let me know the title of this particular thread
Edited by Waxitbut the sabbath thread- I will have to pm then it's up to you what you think and if
you have any questions- you can ask by PM
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestantants then you it will give you a fresh
perspective on 7th day sabbath when I PM you
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Twinky
Me too. Waxit's proposition was raised in open forum; should be responded to in open forum. Waxit, I have your PM. A page and a half is hardly succinct. I'd expected no more than two paragraphs.
I am not remotely interested in reading a 80+ page document about a topic I'm not bothered about, and where its proponent is not concerned to make it interesting or relevant.
It may be better if any discussion of how many crucified be kept to those threads, rather than jumbling all that up, too, on this thread. Does it matter, in context of this thread, if it were 2, 4 or a hundred or more?
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T-Bone
Never mind, you don’t have to bother reading the two posts I gave the links to earlier – you seem pretty convinced there were 4 crucified.
I’m not interested in reading Rome’s Challenge to the Protestants which I found on the same website as “God’s Plan for Mankind” – though I did manage to read its two articles on the Sabbath – nor am I interested in having a private conversation about any of this stuff – - - - and here’s why:
- - If you feel you’ve been misunderstood or incorrectly interpreted in an open forum – what will rectify that in a private conversation? I am the same in private as in public. I use the same vocabulary, refer to the same books and experiences, I try to be empathetic, honest and upfront - whether in public or private. I'm not interested in trying to fix you nor should you feel you have to fix me.
- - I find open forums are a great way for folks to connect on various levels (socially, intellectually, emotionally, shared experiences) and to hone our critical thinking and communication skills – it has quite a positive cumulative effect if folks are polite, respectful and follow forum rules.
- - My time is just as valuable as yours and everyone else’s. Since you appear to be so overly enthusiastic about “God’s Plan” and “Rome’s Challenge” why don’t you save everyone a lot of time and copy and paste select salient points from them and put in a post - and we'll all take it from there
.
- - And frankly, at this point I’m not so sure about your intentions. I mean, if we can’t discuss something as adults being honest and respectful out in the open why would I want to discuss that “something” in private? I did not spend 12 years of my life in an abusive and manipulative organization, going WOW and joining the Way Corps and not learn to be wary of underhanded approaches – if it’s one thing that some TWI leadership are good at, it’s manipulating folks in a clever or unscrupulous manner…I usually try to be polite – but if attacked I just might bite!
... WordWolf mentioned the rules earlier…I try to abide by them – though I have gotten in trouble a time or two 
…but anyway, I think a good rule of thumb for forums and private messages is just don’t say stuff that you would be embarrassed or ashamed of if it was posted on a billboard by a major freeway for everyone to see.
…sorry - I often get verbose
To summarize:
1. forget about the stuff I said regarding 4 crucified,
2. I’m not interested in any more reading assignments,
3. copy and paste in a post the salient points from your favorite docs,
4. be yourself and be courageous in open forums,
5. and until further notice do NOT - under any circumstances – attempt to pm me (thank you for asking me if you could).
Edited by T-Bonejust because I could
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WordWolf
[Usually,
when someone here wants to switch from public threads to private conversations, it means one of 2 things.
1) I think I know your (member of family) but we're not supposed to post people's legal names here unless they're public figures like twi's board, so I'm contacting you privately to discuss knowing people in common and wanting to get personal.
or
2) I have something to hide, AND I want to recruit people for my new enterprise. Since I'm trying to make claims that won't stand up to scrutiny, I'm trying to keep them secret- thus the privacy. I'm trying to recruit you now.
So, there's going to be some reluctance- from painful experience from all the ex-twi splinters that have tried to recruit here.]
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Rocky
It's up to you to make your case.
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Rocky
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WordWolf
{Since I didn't mention it last time,
we have to make our own cases for the claims we make. When someone asks you to explain something, or to provide evidence for something, and you respond with a homework assignment ("read so-and-so's book", "read so-and-so's website"), however phrased, you're going to lose your audience. It looks like you can't possibly support your claims or even explain your positions clearly. Both are signs of not understanding what you're saying despite saying it.]
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Waxit
Hi T-Bone
This thread on the sabbath is going to be a long drawn out discussion.
|I am not interested in long theological debates about technical biblical analysis. It's tiring just to read through
I have brought up the quotes you made to point out some things- in future we will stick to chapter and verse
So can i just ask you if you wish to discuss this just to limit it :
scripture verses that i quoted or bible verses you want to bring up (I am not interested in any highly technical analysis)
I have learnt from my mistakes about relying on what this person said or that person said or what Lenski said- based on my experiences with twi and vw"s
manipulative tactics to shape my thinking and the sex pevert succeeded because I was stupid enough to allow him and not check him out
We are to study diligently and then go to God in prayer to reveal the truth .
If we are humble and meek enough to admit that
we need God to open our eyes beyond our natural understanding using our brain
Matt 13:10-13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Why were the pharisees and the rest not being plainly shown the truth? because they thought they knew it all-were puffed up and really
were not interested in seeking God for the answers and will only continue to argue
Why were the apostles being given spiritual understanding?
The apostles humbled themselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Peter said. to the Lord "To whom shall we go- you have
the words of Life. All things that pertain to life and godliness is in the bible. We must go to the word of God and pray to God himself
to see if we are on the right track
Paul was a highly educated man who humbled himself to the Lord Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus
After 3 days, he received sight physically and spiritually
If you remember I asked you for a bible verse that shows the insignificance of the sabbath and
you started out with a detailed explanation of what someone else and added your explanation before finally giving me the bible verse
A diligent and prayerful study of the word of God (bible? -yes but no I wont trust any "intellectuals" or any lenski who are superior in knowledge
The only source I can trust is God Himself. I know this from personal experience.
When I got of TWI- I prayed and cried out to God to show me the truth- having come out of the trinitarian background into the non trinitarian TWI
The Lord systematically took out from false doctrine to where I am now in faithfully keeping the 7th day sabbath.
and the bible verses started leaping out in a spiritual sense when i read them
I dont really care about 2/4 crucified or 3/6 denials. I believe there are 4 crucified
and Peter denied thrice exactly as Jesus said but if i can be proven otherwise, I dont really care
However the 7th day sabbath is a major commandment so significant but it
has been downgraded into insignificance by satan and his army of intellectuals.
Remember Mars Hill- these were intellectuals who specialised in knowledge gathering
or something interesting, while Moses went directly to the source -God and
Moses was considered the meekest person by God and had a great relationship with God
I may not be a technical bible analyst like you are and you may question my
analytical skills but I know without a doubt that God led me to where I am because I
cried out to him and He answered me
The danger of being highly spohisticated and technical:
2 Timothy 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Ok! Your quote about someone else's brilliant analysis:
What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that
a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem,
still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost
This above statement is faulty in that it is pure conjecture on the part of the person making this statement and a classic example of
someone making a statement on something that he is assuming and wants everyone else to assume
because it backs up the point he wants you to believe
Why would Paul be addressing the few jewish christians iand ignore the largely gentile christians
population in Romans?
Romans 14:1-5
14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
The book of Romans was written by Paul from Corinth to the christians converts in Rome (largely gentile)
The subject here is focussing on food and what particular days they ate the food. The gentile converts were the ones who were weak in faith
having come out of entirely different pagan background and the christian biblical practices was entirely new to them. They were used to their old religious customs
For instance during the season of lent, courtesy of the pagan rc chucrch, they choose not to eat meat on fridays
Also one can tell Paul in this instance is not talking to the christian jews minority because in vs 2- he is saying for one believeth that he may eat
all things. Tell me which religious jew anywhere will agree to eat pork
So to use Romans 14:1-5 and say- Paul is saying it doesnt really matter which day of the week one regards as the sabbath is not correct
because Romans 14:1-5 is not talking about the sabbath. Paul is talking about food eaten on particular days that gentile christians were accustomed to
Your quote:
…Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.”
My answer: Jesus Christ said, "I am the same yesterday, today and forever- (Heb 13:8)
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not legalism- it is obeying the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments
Acts 4:19 19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
7th day Sabbath is ordained by God whereas Sunday keeping is the tradition of Man (Rome' Challenge To The Protestants)
The above statement that the apostles selected sunday as a day of collective worship cannot be true
It is also a known historical fact that beginning from the time of the disciples of Jesus Christ through to His resurrection
through to the early christians and after- For over 400 yearsThe 7th day (saturday) sabbath was always observed as the day for sabbath keeping, there was no such thing as a sunday service or sabbath
So how can early christians relax the rule and gradually ease into sunday keeping when there was no such historical recorrds
Your quote:
Paul said as much in another epistle:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance.
The above verse is Colossians 2:16
Again lust like Romans 14, it is out of context here you fail to take into account to whom it is written.
Paul here is addressing the Colossians who are gentile converts.
So if you correctly take this into account about whom it was written (i.e gentiles) then it is incorrect
of what you are postulating that Paul is remindingthe folks of the unimportance of the sabbath.
That is absolutely not true.
In this case since it is the colossians (i.e gentile converts) that Paul is addressing, you will know that after having
becoming a christian, a gentile who is used to pagan practices and non observance of the sabbath, having his own pagan
worship previously now finds himself observing the sabbath on the 7th day.
So obviously these gentile christians will be given a tough time by friends and families who are unconverted and will be subject
of being mocked and ridiculed by pagans for keeping the 7th day sabbath from sunset to sunset.
This is why Paul is telling the Colossians not to take notice of people who are judging you on account of
your biblical practice of keeping sabbath days (weekly and annual) observance among other things
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Waxit
It's quite easy actually
The seven day weekly cycle was established by God in Gen 2:1-2 and is not obscured and is not tied to any patterns
or alignment of stars, sun or moon. It is a continous serial counting of days one after another from the time God set it
in motion -1st day of the week to 7th day of the week and it is unbroken till our present day.
The fact that the days of the week have pagan names doesnt alter the sequence from 1st day- Sunday to 7th day Saturday
Ezra the priest during the time of the jews in captivity in Babylon saw no need to change the jewish calendar and
adopted the Babylonian calendar -
The names of the month were numbered initially and latest Bablonian names like Nisan- 1st Month were used
All during this time the weekly cycle never changed- Sunday (named after the sun) was the first day of week and Saturday
(named after saturn) was 7th day of the week. The Jews wherever they went including Jesus Christ who should know
as he was responsible for the creation of days in Genesis
were always careful to observe the 7th day for sabbath keeping as God commanded
From 46 bc upto 1582 ad- The western world adopted the Julian Calendar- Nothing changed materially The
Julian calendar was an improvement only on account of the fact in that it kept the months in sync with the season.
The weekly cycle was still the same- 1st day to 7th day still the same
In 1582 ad- the old Julian calendar which was 10 days out of sync with the solar system
was replaced by the Gregorian calendar . which is what we have today, The Gregorian calendar
removed the 10 days which was out of sync- so the chop was made on Thursday Oct 4, 1582
so the next day which was supposed to be Friday, Oct 5th 1582 became Friday, Oct 15th, 1582
so the weekly cycle was still the same now to the present day- 1st day -Sunday to 7th day Saturday
Regards
Waxit
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T-Bone
Ok – got it – since you insist on controlling this discussion, I might play along with your game for a while - but I hope you won’t get too upset when folks call you out on the way you keep changing the rules…
… usually when I see this (vying for control of a conversation) starting to happen in a discussion I tend to think the person wanting to direct the course of the conversation is trying to steer things to their advantage, often by setting limits on what others can use as a reference - and in your case also hypocritical since you want to recommend folks read "God's Plan" and the "Rome's Challenge". Another thing I’ve got to get off my chest before resuming this “game” is that if it’s a conversation about something in the Bible, another straw that control-freaks grab at is “the-old-sincerity- plea” saying stuff along the lines of something like “I’ve prayed about this and God led me to this – he answered my prayer.” Sorry, but if there’s one good warning I remember wierwille teaching in PFAL is that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So I’m not buying it – I really don’t care how you arrived at your position or how enlightened you think you are – go pitch crazy-talk somewhere else.
…and to me, all that manipulative stuff in itself often indicates the person wanting such control is unable to maintain or defend their position against attack or objection.
…that being said I’ll post the two passages I posted earlier – and in keeping with your preference for just chapter and verse, I'm including the whole chapter of each for context – and I’ll keep my comments afterward as brief as possible.
== == ==
Romans 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
== == == ==
Colossians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
Alive in Christ
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]
Let No One Disqualify You
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
== == == ==
…and now Ladies and Gentlemen… drum roll please…here with us today to make some brief comments about Romans 14 and Colossians 2 …is the dude who just returned from a hill of Mars bars…the man…the myth…the intergalactic big head known to his friends as . . . .T-Bone:
"Ah shucks, you can call me T. well, folks it seems pretty obvious to me that Romans 14 and Colossians 2 show that keeping the Sabbath is not something Christians are commanded to follow."
(T-bone drops the mic – boom)
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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Waxit
Dear T-Bone
I just want to let you know I had no intention of controlling anything
Just keeping the conversation focussed on scripture instead of going all over the place
I wanted to be sincere with you about my experience and the honest truth and you dont have to buy anything
because I am not selling anything
The reason i shared with you is, so you can see the benefit that when there is direct honest communication with God
and when God is personally involved in our bible study, it's makes a huge difference
But if you think it's all a scam and I am a con then so be it. I will let God be the judge. I cannot change what you think about me-
and you can say whatever you want. So it looks like from a nice guy, you are now turning into the green incredible hulk
Hopefully, you will come back to normal bill because i am ending this conversation
Only God knows my heart and I dont have any more time for this sort of carry on.
You quoted 2 scriptures in Romans and Colossians and both were taken out of
context in regards to sabbath keeping and you didnt have any answer to that
but instead you get upset because I am not interested in technical analysis
I know this is going nowhere and it's completely pointless discussing any further
You think I am playing a game- To be honest, I have better things that I can do with my time
and it is quite evident- you have spat the dummy
So as of now, I would like to stop all conversations with you in regards to the thread, I started
Edited by WaxitMay God bless you with love and peace
Waxit
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