To me, the premise of this thread has long been irrelevant. I have never worried about the snowstorm since I was woken up a decade and a half ago. Weather reports don't cover everything. In fact, I was out running once at HQ and ran across what seemed to be a very localized snow squall. It started suddenly, was blinding for less than five minutes, then stopped just as suddenly. I'm sure there was no weather station around that would have reported it. But if God told to VPW as VPW said, why use it to boost his own glory instead of just said teaching speak for itself? What does speak for itself to e are all the sexual assaults and associated VPW "doctrine" that laid the foundation for them. That of course includes but is not limited to my own assault. If those are the fruits of God speaking directly to VPW, I wouldnt want any more of them.
It started suddenly, was blinding for less than five minutes, then stopped just as suddenly. I'm sure there was no weather station around that would have reported it.
I don't remember if I suggested something like this incident in the past at GS in defense of VPW's snow story as possibly being true, but it's an experience where a small but strange snowstorm could actually happen without being part of a written record. I thought VPW's story was possible and still do; but being we are here at GS, I may also assume it was bs. No way of knowing really. As Craig might say "ask God to help you understand it." He said that once to me on a different topic.
And yet there is. We have, on more than one occasion, examined weather statistics from the very time and place it supposedly happened. Not only do records indicate it did not happen, records indicate it could not have happened.
I don't remember if I suggested something like this incident in the past at GS in defense of VPW's snow story as possibly being true, but it's an experience where a small but strange snowstorm could actually happen without being part of a written record. I thought VPW's story was possible and still do; but being we are here at GS, I may also assume it was bs. No way of knowing really. As Craig might say "ask God to help you understand it." He said that once to me on a different topic.
Your point touches upon two of the most powerful and insidious elements of wierwille’s theology: his signature intuition and his tendencies toward Gnosticism.
The con is twofold. The harmful and controlling cult-leader appeals to the cult-follower’s desire to mimic the cult-leader - - the subliminal undertone being like a hypnotic melody to ask a “God” who bears a remarkable resemblance to the manageable God promoted by the cult-leader. The tendency toward Gnosticism is in the seeking of special knowledge innocently camouflaged as asking God how to understand and believe in wierwille’s legend of the snow storm.
Thus the member of a cult is NOT following THEIR OWN instincts but has learned to walk behind the signature intuition of the cult-leader.
To relate how effective this subliminal tactic is - I’ll tell you about my own experience. In my 12 years of cult involvement there were many times my faith was challenged over the veracity of wierwille’s story of God’s voice, being given a mission and authenticated by a snow storm. And I would reflect deeply and ask God to help me overcome my doubt. (Grease Spotters should realize I was already biased for which way to think by that last sentence)
Each time I went through such inner turmoil wrestling with my “faith” - there was always a myriad of wierwille-isms flooding my thoughts to remind me to see wierwille as the apostle for my generation: “the adversary will always go after those speaking the truth”
“When Judas walked out on Jesus and the disciples it was night. The only alternative to God’s ministry is the darkness of oblivion.”
My recalling these wierwille-isms tend to subtly push me in a certain direction. Like the Professional Weight Guesser in the movie The Jerk - he limits the choices one can make
To me, the premise of this thread has long been irrelevant. I have never worried about the snowstorm since I was woken up a decade and a half ago. Weather reports don't cover everything. In fact, I was out running once at HQ and ran across what seemed to be a very localized snow squall. It started suddenly, was blinding for less than five minutes, then stopped just as suddenly. I'm sure there was no weather station around that would have reported it. But if God told to VPW as VPW said, why use it to boost his own glory instead of just said teaching speak for itself? What does speak for itself to e are all the sexual assaults and associated VPW "doctrine" that laid the foundation for them. That of course includes but is not limited to my own assault. If those are the fruits of God speaking directly to VPW, I wouldnt want any more of them.
What I see in the premise of the story is how far TWI leadership has officially distanced themselves on the topic of the supposed 19 whenever promise supposedly from God.
Yet unofficially they still buy into it 100% doubling down on the original teachings and whitewashing the bejesus out of VPWs image. Including constructing golden images of him where he is supposedly “Timothy” instead of “plagiarizing lecher VPW”.
VPW never published an official version of the revelation unlike good ole Joe Smith. It was only ever recorded in Elena Whitesides account in her book. Then discontinued from the bookstore.
However as OS has shared about top leaders communication RR revels in and loves the ambiguity. The rumors that circulated in the Corpse were substantiated by the top leaders.
Those rumors were the special uniqueness of VP and his life and how he fulfilled all 5 “gift ministries” when other mere mortals could only at best hope for one or two.
TWI leaders if Plaffy truly is divinely inspired then stop dancing around the topic and come out with some kind of definitive statement about this promise and what you believe about it.
Because every day you don’t do that is another day where you are promoting lies and false rumors.
TWI leaders if Plaffy truly is divinely inspired then stop dancing around the topic and come out with some kind of definitive statement about this promise and what you believe about it.
Because every day you don’t do that is another day where you are promoting lies and false rumors.
Ive heard a lot about promoting lies and false rumors lately. But I don't know if anybody got my point. I'll try it another way. Let's assume, for the proverbial sake of argument, that VPW told the truth about what he described. My point was, then why tell the world? If the word God was teaching him to teach others was that great, why does it need embellishing? I actually wanted to speak to those who believe it happened. I would say that even if it did, all VPW did by telling this story was make a Muhammed Ali like claim "I am the greatest" instead of letting his teachings stand for themselves
Ive heard a lot about promoting lies and false rumors lately. But I don't know if anybody got my point. I'll try it another way. Let's assume, for the proverbial sake of argument, that VPW told the truth about what he described. My point was, then why tell the world? If the word God was teaching him to teach others was that great, why does it need embellishing? I actually wanted to speak to those who believe it happened. I would say that even if it did, all VPW did by telling this story was make a Muhammed Ali like claim "I am the greatest" instead of letting his teachings stand for themselves
I left twi in 2008 and was involved with the way corps training when they moved from Gunnison back to New Knoxville. I can't say what they are doing now but back in 2006 or so that snow job story was still taught in closed circles and still taught to the in residence way corps all the while twi was editing out claims such as the snow job story from all their publications. It's relevant because a lot of people still believe it happened.
I left twi in 2008 and was involved with the way corps training when they moved from Gunnison back to New Knoxville. I can't say what they are doing now but back in 2006 or so that snow job story was still taught in closed circles and still taught to the in residence way corps all the while twi was editing out claims such as the snow job story from all their publications. It's relevant because a lot of people still believe it happened.
Yea, I hear you. They have to push this story in an attempt to lend validity to their teachings. I was from the old days when VPW was still alive and leading he Way. They cant let their teachings stand on their own merit now as they couldn't then either. (I was 8th corps) My personal question is, did the Word as it had not been known since the first century include VPW's teaching to LCM and the corps than the "men of God" had the right to have their sexual needs met in order to further the work of the ministry? Many women were exually assaulted for this purpose, was THAT the reason for God speaking to VPW? And some corps men who did not go along...including this one...were sexually assaulted by equally mind controlled corps women to show us how to claim our "Godly" rights. Was that part of "the promise"? I hope you got out without suffering much trauma.
It seems to me that every charlatan, every false prophet, every phony guru has at least one thing in common: they all make great claims for themselves to speak for, or to be sent from, God.
This, it seems to me, is your sign that they surely DO NOT speak for God.
My personal question is, did the Word as it had not been known since the first century include VPW's teaching to LCM and the corps than the "men of God" had the right to have their sexual needs met in order to further the work of the ministry?
I have a small bit of input, which I will provide, but I defer to folks who may have been in that inner circle back then. I came along in 1996 and left in 2008.
I feel that it is as you say, and I base it on my second fellowship coordinator who was 13th corps and at Rome City as well as Emporia. He basically told me to go get my need met when all I wasnted to do was come home from work and study scripture. I used to study around 3 to 4 hours each evening. So, he would push me to go ahead and loosen up...get my need met and there was nothing wrong with that to him. Personally, by that time I was coming out of running the streets and really didnt need to take advantage of anymore women cause I had done it plenty and was ashamed. I lived with him and his family for a year and seven months. He talked often of all the spiritual pressure on the man of God, and at that time it had been wierwille and it was martindale's turn. So he linked it to the head honchos and it was made known to me in no uncertain terms that these men had extra needs that needed tending to because of the great godly responsibility they had on them.
I will spare you my retort at this stage of my life and let's just chalk it up to adultery and fornication is always wrong.
I will spare you my retort at this stage of my life and let's just chalk it up to adultery and fornication is always wrong.
No argument, But the truth of this sexual activity in the Way is even stronger. Abusers in all walks of life crave power over their victims. As my best survivor friend, who is an entertainer told me, they all read from the same script. And that power is not always physical. Mind control in the Way was rampant. This puts much of the activity into the rape and sexual assault categories. It also explains how I, a male, was sexually assaulted by two corps women. They even used the same words VPW used, that I needed to be loosened up. As you would say, this doesn't make adultery and fornication Godly even if they are done consensually to both parties. But such spiritual pressure does not pass for consent.
Such is the fruit of the great "promise". Ask any Way survivor.
Ive heard a lot about promoting lies and false rumors lately. But I don't know if anybody got my point. I'll try it another way. Let's assume, for the proverbial sake of argument, that VPW told the truth about what he described. My point was, then why tell the world? If the word God was teaching him to teach others was that great, why does it need embellishing? I actually wanted to speak to those who believe it happened. I would say that even if it did, all VPW did by telling this story was make a Muhammed Ali like claim "I am the greatest" instead of letting his teachings stand for themselves
Why tell the world? How exactly otherwise do you think those who “believe it happened” would come to “believe it happened”?
Yea, I hear you. They have to push this story in an attempt to lend validity to their teachings. I was from the old days when VPW was still alive and leading he Way. They cant let their teachings stand on their own merit now as they couldn't then either. (I was 8th corps) My personal question is, did the Word as it had not been known since the first century include VPW's teaching to LCM and the corps than the "men of God" had the right to have their sexual needs met in order to further the work of the ministry? Many women were exually assaulted for this purpose, was THAT the reason for God speaking to VPW? And some corps men who did not go along...including this one...were sexually assaulted by equally mind controlled corps women to show us how to claim our "Godly" rights. Was that part of "the promise"? I hope you got out without suffering much trauma.
The “word” or supported example taught to The Way Corps was in a little book called “VP and me”. This was given to VP as a present at the Living Victoriously celebration and transfer of authority.
In this which was read to and focused on by the Corpse there was a statement about how Craig needed to “loosen up” in some areas from VPs advice. It was shared in the context of growing in spiritual maturity.
The lockbox was also taught to keep sexual assault victims silent.
The lockbox was also taught to keep sexual assault victims silent.
Certainly Kristen Skedgell wrote of this regarding her case. I was never told to keep my assault in the lockbox; I suppose they figured nobody would believe a male survivor. But the term "loosened up" was used about me.
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skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching th
rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
waysider
...but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
WordWolf
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OldSkool
Yeah...kinda presents a conundrum.
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Rocky
Does it, really? I don't think so. Realizing it was just something some malignant narcissist made up is hardly a conundrum, IMO.
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OldSkool
It was a failed attempt at humor...
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skyrider
Wierwille made a claim that God never promised.
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Lifted Up
To me, the premise of this thread has long been irrelevant. I have never worried about the snowstorm since I was woken up a decade and a half ago. Weather reports don't cover everything. In fact, I was out running once at HQ and ran across what seemed to be a very localized snow squall. It started suddenly, was blinding for less than five minutes, then stopped just as suddenly. I'm sure there was no weather station around that would have reported it. But if God told to VPW as VPW said, why use it to boost his own glory instead of just said teaching speak for itself? What does speak for itself to e are all the sexual assaults and associated VPW "doctrine" that laid the foundation for them. That of course includes but is not limited to my own assault. If those are the fruits of God speaking directly to VPW, I wouldnt want any more of them.
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oldiesman
I don't remember if I suggested something like this incident in the past at GS in defense of VPW's snow story as possibly being true, but it's an experience where a small but strange snowstorm could actually happen without being part of a written record. I thought VPW's story was possible and still do; but being we are here at GS, I may also assume it was bs. No way of knowing really. As Craig might say "ask God to help you understand it." He said that once to me on a different topic.
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waysider
And yet there is. We have, on more than one occasion, examined weather statistics from the very time and place it supposedly happened. Not only do records indicate it did not happen, records indicate it could not have happened.
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T-Bone
Your point touches upon two of the most powerful and insidious elements of wierwille’s theology: his signature intuition and his tendencies toward Gnosticism.
The con is twofold. The harmful and controlling cult-leader appeals to the cult-follower’s desire to mimic the cult-leader - - the subliminal undertone being like a hypnotic melody to ask a “God” who bears a remarkable resemblance to the manageable God promoted by the cult-leader. The tendency toward Gnosticism is in the seeking of special knowledge innocently camouflaged as asking God how to understand and believe in wierwille’s legend of the snow storm.
Thus the member of a cult is NOT following THEIR OWN instincts but has learned to walk behind the signature intuition of the cult-leader.
To relate how effective this subliminal tactic is - I’ll tell you about my own experience. In my 12 years of cult involvement there were many times my faith was challenged over the veracity of wierwille’s story of God’s voice, being given a mission and authenticated by a snow storm. And I would reflect deeply and ask God to help me overcome my doubt. (Grease Spotters should realize I was already biased for which way to think by that last sentence)
Each time I went through such inner turmoil wrestling with my “faith” - there was always a myriad of wierwille-isms flooding my thoughts to remind me to see wierwille as the apostle for my generation: “the adversary will always go after those speaking the truth”
“When Judas walked out on Jesus and the disciples it was night. The only alternative to God’s ministry is the darkness of oblivion.”
My recalling these wierwille-isms tend to subtly push me in a certain direction. Like the Professional Weight Guesser in the movie The Jerk - he limits the choices one can make
The Jerk: the professional weight guesser scene
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chockfull
What I see in the premise of the story is how far TWI leadership has officially distanced themselves on the topic of the supposed 19 whenever promise supposedly from God.
Yet unofficially they still buy into it 100% doubling down on the original teachings and whitewashing the bejesus out of VPWs image. Including constructing golden images of him where he is supposedly “Timothy” instead of “plagiarizing lecher VPW”.
VPW never published an official version of the revelation unlike good ole Joe Smith. It was only ever recorded in Elena Whitesides account in her book. Then discontinued from the bookstore.
However as OS has shared about top leaders communication RR revels in and loves the ambiguity. The rumors that circulated in the Corpse were substantiated by the top leaders.
Those rumors were the special uniqueness of VP and his life and how he fulfilled all 5 “gift ministries” when other mere mortals could only at best hope for one or two.
TWI leaders if Plaffy truly is divinely inspired then stop dancing around the topic and come out with some kind of definitive statement about this promise and what you believe about it.
Because every day you don’t do that is another day where you are promoting lies and false rumors.
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Lifted Up
Ive heard a lot about promoting lies and false rumors lately. But I don't know if anybody got my point. I'll try it another way. Let's assume, for the proverbial sake of argument, that VPW told the truth about what he described. My point was, then why tell the world? If the word God was teaching him to teach others was that great, why does it need embellishing? I actually wanted to speak to those who believe it happened. I would say that even if it did, all VPW did by telling this story was make a Muhammed Ali like claim "I am the greatest" instead of letting his teachings stand for themselves
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Nathan_Jr
Those who claim to speak for God are surely those who do not.
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OldSkool
I left twi in 2008 and was involved with the way corps training when they moved from Gunnison back to New Knoxville. I can't say what they are doing now but back in 2006 or so that snow job story was still taught in closed circles and still taught to the in residence way corps all the while twi was editing out claims such as the snow job story from all their publications. It's relevant because a lot of people still believe it happened.
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Lifted Up
Yea, I hear you. They have to push this story in an attempt to lend validity to their teachings. I was from the old days when VPW was still alive and leading he Way. They cant let their teachings stand on their own merit now as they couldn't then either. (I was 8th corps) My personal question is, did the Word as it had not been known since the first century include VPW's teaching to LCM and the corps than the "men of God" had the right to have their sexual needs met in order to further the work of the ministry? Many women were exually assaulted for this purpose, was THAT the reason for God speaking to VPW? And some corps men who did not go along...including this one...were sexually assaulted by equally mind controlled corps women to show us how to claim our "Godly" rights. Was that part of "the promise"? I hope you got out without suffering much trauma.
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Nathan_Jr
It seems to me that every charlatan, every false prophet, every phony guru has at least one thing in common: they all make great claims for themselves to speak for, or to be sent from, God.
This, it seems to me, is your sign that they surely DO NOT speak for God.
You will know them by their fruit. Period.
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OldSkool
I have a small bit of input, which I will provide, but I defer to folks who may have been in that inner circle back then. I came along in 1996 and left in 2008.
I feel that it is as you say, and I base it on my second fellowship coordinator who was 13th corps and at Rome City as well as Emporia. He basically told me to go get my need met when all I wasnted to do was come home from work and study scripture. I used to study around 3 to 4 hours each evening. So, he would push me to go ahead and loosen up...get my need met and there was nothing wrong with that to him. Personally, by that time I was coming out of running the streets and really didnt need to take advantage of anymore women cause I had done it plenty and was ashamed. I lived with him and his family for a year and seven months. He talked often of all the spiritual pressure on the man of God, and at that time it had been wierwille and it was martindale's turn. So he linked it to the head honchos and it was made known to me in no uncertain terms that these men had extra needs that needed tending to because of the great godly responsibility they had on them.
I will spare you my retort at this stage of my life and let's just chalk it up to adultery and fornication is always wrong.
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Lifted Up
No argument, But the truth of this sexual activity in the Way is even stronger. Abusers in all walks of life crave power over their victims. As my best survivor friend, who is an entertainer told me, they all read from the same script. And that power is not always physical. Mind control in the Way was rampant. This puts much of the activity into the rape and sexual assault categories. It also explains how I, a male, was sexually assaulted by two corps women. They even used the same words VPW used, that I needed to be loosened up. As you would say, this doesn't make adultery and fornication Godly even if they are done consensually to both parties. But such spiritual pressure does not pass for consent.
Such is the fruit of the great "promise". Ask any Way survivor.
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Lifted Up
Perhaps the best post on this thread. Short and right to the point!
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chockfull
Why tell the world? How exactly otherwise do you think those who “believe it happened” would come to “believe it happened”?
Osmosis?
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chockfull
The “word” or supported example taught to The Way Corps was in a little book called “VP and me”. This was given to VP as a present at the Living Victoriously celebration and transfer of authority.
In this which was read to and focused on by the Corpse there was a statement about how Craig needed to “loosen up” in some areas from VPs advice. It was shared in the context of growing in spiritual maturity.
The lockbox was also taught to keep sexual assault victims silent.
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Lifted Up
Certainly Kristen Skedgell wrote of this regarding her case. I was never told to keep my assault in the lockbox; I suppose they figured nobody would believe a male survivor. But the term "loosened up" was used about me.
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