That whole confess your sin for forgiveness was to justify wrong doing. Namely, VPW's sex life. Which some others adapted to quite quickly.
Forgiveness is a way of life, a reality, not something that happens according to what is done or not done.
I was talking about the forgiveness in the verse in 1 John epistle, not pfal. AND it was talking about GOD'S forgiveness. You seem to be talking about humans forgiving humans?
2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
You're implying someone was trying to trick you. I wasn't. Not in this thread.
I was describing something, as I understand it, happens at an unconscious level. Doesn't absolve the individual of responsibility but it's not quite a conscious process taking place. It certainly manifests in horrible ways.
This trickster mentality . . . it didn't allow you to see what I was saying. Any person can be conditioned, groomed or love-bombed into that mode . . . (I believe) with VPW the issue was much deeper, much more pronounced.
This seems like "trick of the Adversary" type of logic. I referenced the "possesion thread" a few posts back. Would be good to get your reflection on that.
********************
I didn't think you were trying to trick me.
I thought you were implying things about ministry leaders who fell for the trick of thinking their "new man nature" defense was valid for their bad behavior. This did happen. I saw some use that spurious defense.
Ok, if you were referring to me and my subconscious then that is another matter.
. . .
I'm specifically referring to VPW and how his mind molded PFAL. (From the work of others)
BTW, I have not mentioned this. For practical reasons I no longer preach "God-breathed PFAL" and "Bible = PFAL" and things like that.
In my attempted sabbatical from that debate, I have seen that that idea is either not properly and accurately expressed by me...
OR
...that idea is too strong for most grads out there to handle, and throws most them off the track in hearing me fully.
So, as a practical measure, starting several years ago, I have simply looked for grads who know enough PFAL to like it and find it extremely helpful in their walk with God. There are so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet them all the time on the net. A couple of them know a very large amount of PFAL. These types of grads have helped me greatly, even as I have worked to help them. They teach me often of what I missed that slipped by me, or things that I forgot.
That was my mission here 15 years ago: to provide for grads things that slipped by them unawares, or things that they forgot.
I must have typed that phrase here dozens of times, or something nearly identical to the idea of "things that slipped by us unawares, or things that we forgot."
So we may be on the same idea, except it's me doing the subconscious planting, and according to Dr. Paul's Rx prescription.
But you say that you know a better doctor, Dr. Antinarcissi, and he says that Paul's Mental Meds for me are dangerous and bad.
I say this is similar to the situation with L-Tryptophan ban long time ago.
The test batch was contaminated, or something like that, so L-Tryptophan was deemed poisonous by the medical establishment and laws. Turned out the establishment was premature and completely wrong.
I think your establishment Dr. Antinarcissi was premature with his careful prosthesis and completely wrong.He was fooled by the contaminants.
I was talking about the forgiveness in the verse in 1 John epistle, not pfal. AND it was talking about GOD'S forgiveness. You seem to be talking about humans forgiving humans?
you missed the point
did I say humans forgiving humans, no, you did
let's take something like "God" and refer to that as something that forgives, and not 1 John according to pfal
...So, as a practical measure, starting several years ago, I have simply looked for grads who know enough PFAL to like it and find it extremely helpful in their walk with God. There are so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet them all the time on the net. A couple of them know a very large amount of PFAL. These types of grads have helped me greatly, even as I have worked to help them. They teach me often of what I missed that slipped by me, or things that I forgot.
That was my mission here 15 years ago: to provide for grads things that slipped by them unawares, or things that they forgot.
I must have typed that phrase here dozens of times, or something nearly identical to the idea of "things that slipped by us unawares, or things that we forgot."
...on the flip side – I bet there were a lot of things that slipped by unaware PFAL grads – for example the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger, inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader, besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend.
And on the cutting edge – Grease Spot is where a lot of PFAL grads first become aware that the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger, inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend...
...of course a lot of seasoned PFAL grads over their years of involvement became painfully aware of that stuff – and have shared here about unfortunate encounters with wierwille - experiencing some of those awful traits of his first hand – after all Grease Spot is the other side of the story...things that slipped by unaware folks, things that we forgot, things about our pre-cult days that we forgot about, goals and interests that we forgot about, reengaging critical and creative thinking skills, picking up the pieces and moving on, reconnecting with old friends and making new ones, finding kindred spirits, listening and being supportive, being aware of what's genuine and not letting fellow Grease Spotters slip by unappreciated.
Edited by T-Bone the revision slipped by the editor unaware...I mean the revision was unaware there was an editor
It means I care not at all if modern psychology says that Paul's strong suggestion that operating split personality (like you talked about) where the natural old man is reckoned dead, and much effort is made to focus on acting out the new man personality.
I thought you were saying that this Pauline Personality Split was equivalent to some Narcissistic bla-bla mental illness.
I'm saying I don't care. My trust is in what Paul said about me living this way.
It means to walk in the new man nature, reckoning the old man dead.
Here is the best I understand on the walk in the new man nature. HOWEVER, it has some debatable PFAL references. I wrote this 2 days ago to a friend, since we are researching it. I dont have time to edit it and purge the debatable material. If the debatable PFAL material sparks a debate challenge on it against my wishes, I may chose to righteously dodge that challenge.
You see, I'm trying to not get lost in endless, repetitive debates, yet still discuss God, life, the Bible, and applications, and favorite dance music, but no politics of course, because that too is debate prone.
Hey, hit me with your most troublesome Bible verses. They will probably be troublesome to me too. I'll try to not include PFAL, liked I did include it below in the text to my friend.
Ok, now for that letter
*/*/*/*
We are not expected to be always walking by revelation.
We are enabled to walk in the new man nature all the time.
Here is the difference:
We are given all the enablements to walk ALL THE TIME in the new man nature. We often fail, and walk by old man nature. That’s what I John 1:9 is for, to quickly and effortlessly switch back to walking in the new man nature. Then we can start this perfectly renewed mind walk again.
As we get more and more skilled at this, we can figuratively look at the hours before the fellowship meeting to be like practice and warm up, while fellowship is the big game.
There are 3 aspects of this walking by (or in?) this new man nature, by the spirit.
(1) We walk by the accurate Word we have. Sometimes we simply remember the Word and do it. In some situations that Word speaks to us, by INSPIRATION (not revelation) where God energizes our memory of just the right portion of His Word to exactly fit the situation. There is a passage in Vol.5 “Order My Steps in Thy Word” where Dr teaches this. This inspiration in our walk is exactly the same as inspiration in operating the 3 worship manifestations. It is not revelation.
(2) We operate the 3 worship manifestation, which again, are done by inspiration (like it’s described above) in a fellowship setting.
(3) We operate the 3 revelation manifestations, along with the 3 power manifestations, and we do as God says to us directly. Unlike inspiration, revelation can have new information in it, or info not available but needed. Inspiration for action and/or the other manifestations may be specified by God.
It is possible to always walk in the new man nature. If we blow it, it is still possible to give it a try next time around. God loves this just like a parent loves to see early fledgling steps of a baby.
*/*/*/*
I'm still learning the fine points on this, so please let me know if you have anything to add, subtract, or change. …but not like Eve… LoL :)
This essay is not finished. I still want to incorporate more items items:
I’m thinking that the phrase or idea of “Inspiration for action and/or the other manifestations may be specified by God” should be in all 3 items above
I’m thinking that SIT should be in all three items above.
It means I care not at all if modern psychology says that Paul's strong suggestion that operating split personality (like you talked about) where the natural old man is reckoned dead, and much effort is made to focus on acting out the new man personality.
I thought you were saying that this Pauline Personality Split was equivalent to some Narcissistic bla-bla mental illness.
I'm saying I don't care. My trust is in what Paul said about me living this way.
I'm saying VPW's use of all materials was in service to get narcisstic supply. The mode is a self defense mechanism of and deeply damaged being. Not a tool for the self aware.
If you search Acts of the Apostles in a red letter edition, highlighting Jesus words an interesting pattern emerges.
Jesus actually is the Star of the Show in Acts, just like in the 4 Gospels, only better. Acts is "Jesus - Part 2"
Acts answers the question some might have at the end of the 4 Gospels "...and THEN what happened?"
Jesus said in the Gospels that he was going to split and send the comforter, etc. etc etc., and Acts is Luke's continuing account of these things. We could say Acts is "Luke Part 2" but Luke is not at all the Star of the Show, although he is a player. He has a minor role in the Gospel he wrote.
Can you pull up from memory where all the red letter fonts of Jesus speaking in Acts are? Think on as a self Bible Quiz.
Certainly he is in there at the beginning, and then gone by the second chapter. But where else?
But WAIT! There;s more.
The road to Damascus scene with Jesus in this movie happens ONCE.... in the narrative.
But then he appears TWO MORE TIMES ... as flashbacks.
Now here's fun part that you can do an home for extra credit.
If you take ALL the red letters in Acts and put them on one sheet of paper WHAT do you see?
It reads interestingly close to the first chapter in Colosians, the "Christ in you" chapter !!!!!
Waysider, if you want the short answer, Jesus commissioned Paul to be his top apostle with the top message. Paul was documenting in writing and in his life how far God can go with sinners to inspire them to walk away from their old man nature (at least for a little while) and get some of God's most important work done. The Jesus Christ factor is behind all of Paul's writings.
********************
LATE ADD ON:
The Jesus Christ factor also appears in US when we walk this way. Natural men, blind to spiritual realities, can see Jesus Christ in our actions that line up with Paul's (really Jesus' words) just like blind natural men could see Jesus in the Gospels, except the potential is greater in the Gospel of Paul.
So, as a practical measure, starting several years ago, I have simply looked for grads who know enough PFAL to like it and find it extremely helpful in their walk with God. There are so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet them all the time on the net. A couple of them know a very large amount of PFAL. These types of grads have helped me greatly, even as I have worked to help them. They teach me often of what I missed that slipped by me, or things that I forgot.
The thing about preaching to the trees is they do not engage.
Yes, and it's the same thing at most University Lectures on technical and highly detailed topics with the expert in front and the students not engaging.... until the end of the lecture. The more students, the more this thing.
Well, shucks, I reckon us country bumpkins here don't stand a chance at understandin' what yer preachin'.
edit: Tee Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk!
Actually, in verifying my earlier answer to you, I;m not sure if it was you who asked. I was unable to find my original post that that came from. I;m losing my second wind and missing things.
I'm specifically referring to VPW and how his mind molded PFAL. (From the work of others)
I was specifically avoiding mentioning him to avoid debate, but I see him in the phrase I used "ministry leaders"
First John Epistle told me long ago that VPW was no goodie goodie. He said it too, many times, many ways.
I'm sure glad you folks aren't anybody's final judge. You all need a chill pill sometimes I think. But I;m not a doctor, I just look like one on the radio.
No. It;s a media estimate from the numbers of members and posters that are visible, and from the number of PFAL grads. It's an Enthusiastic Estimate.
In various media, it is well known that for every letter or caller, there are x100 to x1000 silent non-writers out there.
What kind of and Unenthusiastic Estimate would you give? We can take the average as fact.
Well... I'm of the understanding that there were never more than 100k who took the PFLAP class... and for YEARS (decades), twi strongly discouraged their minions from accessing the evil internet.
I can't imagine there are...
3 hours ago, Rocky said:
so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet themall the time on the net.
Especially so many who still give two hoots about the class.
How many people go to twigs... er, home fellowships?
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cman
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in you
cman
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
OldSkool
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces t
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Mike
I was talking about the forgiveness in the verse in 1 John epistle, not pfal. AND it was talking about GOD'S forgiveness. You seem to be talking about humans forgiving humans?
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Bolshevik
I'm specifically referring to VPW and how his mind molded PFAL. (From the work of others)
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Mike
BTW, I have not mentioned this. For practical reasons I no longer preach "God-breathed PFAL" and "Bible = PFAL" and things like that.
In my attempted sabbatical from that debate, I have seen that that idea is either not properly and accurately expressed by me...
OR
...that idea is too strong for most grads out there to handle, and throws most them off the track in hearing me fully.
So, as a practical measure, starting several years ago, I have simply looked for grads who know enough PFAL to like it and find it extremely helpful in their walk with God. There are so many thousands of these kinds of grads out there that I meet them all the time on the net. A couple of them know a very large amount of PFAL. These types of grads have helped me greatly, even as I have worked to help them. They teach me often of what I missed that slipped by me, or things that I forgot.
That was my mission here 15 years ago: to provide for grads things that slipped by them unawares, or things that they forgot.
I must have typed that phrase here dozens of times, or something nearly identical to the idea of "things that slipped by us unawares, or things that we forgot."
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Bolshevik
Sorry. I have no idea what this means.
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Bolshevik
"Walk with God"
Please explain what that is?
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cman
you missed the point
did I say humans forgiving humans, no, you did
let's take something like "God" and refer to that as something that forgives, and not 1 John according to pfal
If you want to use scripture than call it.
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waysider
Well, shucks, I reckon us country bumpkins here don't stand a chance at understandin' what yer preachin'.
edit: Tee Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk!
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T-Bone
...on the flip side – I bet there were a lot of things that slipped by unaware PFAL grads – for example the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger,
inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader, besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend.And on the cutting edge – Grease Spot is where a lot of PFAL grads first become aware that the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger,
inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend......of course a lot of seasoned PFAL grads over their years of involvement became painfully aware of that stuff – and have shared here about unfortunate encounters with wierwille - experiencing some of those awful traits of his first hand – after all Grease Spot is the other side of the story...things that slipped by unaware folks, things that we forgot, things about our pre-cult days that we forgot about, goals and interests that we forgot about, reengaging critical and creative thinking skills, picking up the pieces and moving on, reconnecting with old friends and making new ones, finding kindred spirits, listening and being supportive, being aware of what's genuine and not letting fellow Grease Spotters slip by unappreciated.
Edited by T-Bonethe revision slipped by the editor unaware...I mean the revision was unaware there was an editor
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Mike
TRANSLATION.
It means I care not at all if modern psychology says that Paul's strong suggestion that operating split personality (like you talked about) where the natural old man is reckoned dead, and much effort is made to focus on acting out the new man personality.
I thought you were saying that this Pauline Personality Split was equivalent to some Narcissistic bla-bla mental illness.
I'm saying I don't care. My trust is in what Paul said about me living this way.
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waysider
How does Jesus Christ factor into this equation?
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Mike
It means to walk in the new man nature, reckoning the old man dead.
Here is the best I understand on the walk in the new man nature. HOWEVER, it has some debatable PFAL references. I wrote this 2 days ago to a friend, since we are researching it. I dont have time to edit it and purge the debatable material. If the debatable PFAL material sparks a debate challenge on it against my wishes, I may chose to righteously dodge that challenge.
You see, I'm trying to not get lost in endless, repetitive debates, yet still discuss God, life, the Bible, and applications, and favorite dance music, but no politics of course, because that too is debate prone.
Hey, hit me with your most troublesome Bible verses. They will probably be troublesome to me too. I'll try to not include PFAL, liked I did include it below in the text to my friend.
Ok, now for that letter
*/*/*/*
We are not expected to be always walking by revelation.
We are enabled to walk in the new man nature all the time.
Here is the difference:
We are given all the enablements to walk ALL THE TIME in the new man nature. We often fail, and walk by old man nature. That’s what I John 1:9 is for, to quickly and effortlessly switch back to walking in the new man nature. Then we can start this perfectly renewed mind walk again.
As we get more and more skilled at this, we can figuratively look at the hours before the fellowship meeting to be like practice and warm up, while fellowship is the big game.
There are 3 aspects of this walking by (or in?) this new man nature, by the spirit.
(1) We walk by the accurate Word we have. Sometimes we simply remember the Word and do it. In some situations that Word speaks to us, by INSPIRATION (not revelation) where God energizes our memory of just the right portion of His Word to exactly fit the situation. There is a passage in Vol.5 “Order My Steps in Thy Word” where Dr teaches this. This inspiration in our walk is exactly the same as inspiration in operating the 3 worship manifestations. It is not revelation.
(2) We operate the 3 worship manifestation, which again, are done by inspiration (like it’s described above) in a fellowship setting.
(3) We operate the 3 revelation manifestations, along with the 3 power manifestations, and we do as God says to us directly. Unlike inspiration, revelation can have new information in it, or info not available but needed. Inspiration for action and/or the other manifestations may be specified by God.
It is possible to always walk in the new man nature. If we blow it, it is still possible to give it a try next time around. God loves this just like a parent loves to see early fledgling steps of a baby.
*/*/*/*
I'm still learning the fine points on this, so please let me know if you have anything to add, subtract, or change. …but not like Eve… LoL :)
This essay is not finished. I still want to incorporate more items items:
I’m thinking that the phrase or idea of “Inspiration for action and/or the other manifestations may be specified by God” should be in all 3 items above
I’m thinking that SIT should be in all three items above.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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Bolshevik
I'm saying VPW's use of all materials was in service to get narcisstic supply. The mode is a self defense mechanism of and deeply damaged being. Not a tool for the self aware.
But you said self awareness is to be avoided.
Sooooo . . . Ya.
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Mike
Glad you asked.
If you search Acts of the Apostles in a red letter edition, highlighting Jesus words an interesting pattern emerges.
Jesus actually is the Star of the Show in Acts, just like in the 4 Gospels, only better. Acts is "Jesus - Part 2"
Acts answers the question some might have at the end of the 4 Gospels "...and THEN what happened?"
Jesus said in the Gospels that he was going to split and send the comforter, etc. etc etc., and Acts is Luke's continuing account of these things. We could say Acts is "Luke Part 2" but Luke is not at all the Star of the Show, although he is a player. He has a minor role in the Gospel he wrote.
Can you pull up from memory where all the red letter fonts of Jesus speaking in Acts are? Think on as a self Bible Quiz.
Certainly he is in there at the beginning, and then gone by the second chapter. But where else?
<Jeopardy Thinking Music Playing>
ding dong ding
ding dong ding
ding ding ding
da-ding ding ding aling
BUZZZZZZZZ!
OK. This is like self scoring bowling. See how you did.
Jesus appears on the road to Damascus !!!!
applause,applause,applause,applause,applause,applause,applause,applause,
But WAIT! There;s more.
The road to Damascus scene with Jesus in this movie happens ONCE.... in the narrative.
But then he appears TWO MORE TIMES ... as flashbacks.
Now here's fun part that you can do an home for extra credit.
If you take ALL the red letters in Acts and put them on one sheet of paper WHAT do you see?
It reads interestingly close to the first chapter in Colosians, the "Christ in you" chapter !!!!!
Waysider, if you want the short answer, Jesus commissioned Paul to be his top apostle with the top message. Paul was documenting in writing and in his life how far God can go with sinners to inspire them to walk away from their old man nature (at least for a little while) and get some of God's most important work done. The Jesus Christ factor is behind all of Paul's writings.
********************
LATE ADD ON:
The Jesus Christ factor also appears in US when we walk this way. Natural men, blind to spiritual realities, can see Jesus Christ in our actions that line up with Paul's (really Jesus' words) just like blind natural men could see Jesus in the Gospels, except the potential is greater in the Gospel of Paul.
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Bolshevik
The thing about preaching to the trees is they do not engage.
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Mike
Hey guys and gals, I'm exhausted.
I'll try to get back to you soon and
catch up on what I haven't answered.
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Bolshevik
Ok I have more questions.
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Rocky
That's a figure of speech, right? Exaggerando?
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Mike
LoL
Golly Gomer, why did you ask the question?
Was that a Columbo Question?
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Mike
Sorry. I may have missed something. There;s a lot to respond to here and I was tired and racing. I came back to catch up, getting a second wind.
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Mike
No. It;s a media estimate from the numbers of members and posters that are visible, and from the number of PFAL grads. It's an Enthusiastic Estimate.
In various media, it is well known that for every letter or caller, there are x100 to x1000 silent non-writers out there.
What kind of and Unenthusiastic Estimate would you give? We can take the average as fact.
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Mike
Yes, and it's the same thing at most University Lectures on technical and highly detailed topics with the expert in front and the students not engaging.... until the end of the lecture. The more students, the more this thing.
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Mike
Actually, in verifying my earlier answer to you, I;m not sure if it was you who asked. I was unable to find my original post that that came from. I;m losing my second wind and missing things.
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Mike
I was specifically avoiding mentioning him to avoid debate, but I see him in the phrase I used "ministry leaders"
First John Epistle told me long ago that VPW was no goodie goodie. He said it too, many times, many ways.
I'm sure glad you folks aren't anybody's final judge. You all need a chill pill sometimes I think. But I;m not a doctor, I just look like one on the radio.
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Rocky
Well... I'm of the understanding that there were never more than 100k who took the PFLAP class... and for YEARS (decades), twi strongly discouraged their minions from accessing the evil internet.
I can't imagine there are...
Especially so many who still give two hoots about the class.
How many people go to twigs... er, home fellowships?
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