The rank and file should be in a state of flux. New recruits are always needed because people are always leaving due to the self-destructive nature of the group.
The middle management is in layers. That doesn't feel right. Should be more like columns. Interwoven like spaghetti. Or worms.
The top is the leader. Who should be moving like moving dry sand. Perpetually trying to take form, a real identity, but cannot.
God is nowhere, usually would transcend the system but in this case should be below the leader. Like spaghetti sauce.
And the whole thing should be fold inward, with the leader in the center of a blob, not on top.
I think Steven Hassan's hierarchy diagram is spot on for representing how harmful and controlling cults function...hey don't bring calzones into this...I loves me some calzones - but can't have them right now - I'm trying to lose weight.
I think Steven Hassan's hierarchy diagram is spot on for representing how harmful and controlling cults function...hey don't bring calzones into this...I loves me some calzones - but can't have them right now - I'm trying to lose weight.
I just googled Steve's hierarchy and images went . . . . Build The Boundaries!!
I mean, Hitler kept his inner circle on the back foot. Competing. He is speculated to have Either Narcissistic or Borderline PD. Had the core either way.
I think Steven Hassan's hierarchy diagram is spot on for representing how harmful and controlling cults function...hey don't bring calzones into this...I loves me some calzones - but can't have them right now - I'm trying to lose weight.
Hey T-Bone,
Here's a LINK - Hassan is one of many cited in there - so we're getting somewhere
I don't know if you're familiar with object relations theory. Vaknin did a very simplified explanation I will see if I can find.
From the article:
The role of object relations in the cult experience may only be a topic of conjecture but the authors propose, as have others, that the cult experience taps into unconscious attachment needs that motivate and direct the cult member’s behavior. As stated earlier, an intense process of dissociating and manipulating experiences set the stage for an ego regression. This externally induced ego regression activates early attachment needs, a primitive level of object relationships and object representations, and corresponding engagements in primitive defensive operations. It is the emergence of these defensive operations that indicate the cult member is indeed operating, if only temporarily, at the borderline range of personality organization.
Theoretical particularities aside, it is also important to note that the construct of borderline personality organization is not synonymous with the DSM-IV TR diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. While individuals fitting the DSM-IV TR diagnostic criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder certainly utilize primitive defensive operations (and are in fact operating at the borderline level of personality organization), the borderline personality organization construct also describes other severe personality disorders. A borderline level of personality organization, as indicated by the use of primitive defensive operations is also commonly observed in Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as Antisocial Personality Disorder (Gacono, Meloy, & Berg, 1992; Kernberg, 1984; Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual 2006).
In essence, the cult experience degrades the ego, effectively causing the individual to regress into a transient state of borderline personality organizational-style functioning that may resolve itself once the individual leaves the group. This assertion is based on two separate observations. The first, as mentioned before, is that cult members exhibit behavior that is strikingly similar to behaviors associated with primitive defensive operations, such as splitting (Goldberg, 1997; Whitsett, 1992). The second seems to be the activation of important object relations-level attachment needs, which helps to motivate the cult member’s behavior (Shaw, 2003; Whitsett, 1992).
Here we might call this waybrain?
Narcissists and borderlines often pair up . . . it would make sense a narcissist leader wants to induce borderline features in followers?
Edited by Bolshevik my quote done enmeshed with the post
Here's a LINK - Hassan is one of many cited in there - so we're getting somewhere
Hi Bolshevik,
You always have some interesting ideas and links…and it usually takes me doing some extra-credit work ( wonder if my credit is any good here ) in remedial reading to understand what you’re talking about…thanks for that link – I browsed through the paper and quoted some interesting points further down in this post, that mainly get into the methods of a cult versus those used by “legitimate political, social, and religious groups/movements” …but after reading it I realized I needed to understand “object relations perspective” so I Googled that and found this:
“Object relations is a variation of psychoanalytic theory that diverges from Sigmund Freud’s belief that humans are motivated by sexual and aggressive drives, suggesting instead that humans are primarily motivated by the need for contact with others—the need to form relationships.
The aim of an object relations therapist is to help an individual in therapy uncover early mental images that may contribute to any present difficulties in one’s relationships with others and adjust them in ways that may improve interpersonal functioning.
BASIC CONCEPTS IN OBJECT RELATIONS
In the context of object relations theory, the term "objects" refers not to inanimate entities but to significant others with whom an individual relates, usually one's mother, father, or primary caregiver. In some cases, the term object may also be used to refer to a part of a person, such as a mother's breast, or to the mental representations of significant others.”
From: Good Therapy.org
Now back to the “An Object Relations Approach to Cult Membership” paper from your link…and putting this stuff together with what I found elsewhere - it’s a fiendish process how harmful and controlling cults tap into unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
From the Abstract "A distinction based on two sets of dynamics should be drawn between legitimate political, social, and religious groups/movements and cults. The first is the ‘methods cults use (as opposed to those used by more benign groups), the second is the disparity in outcomes between the two sets of groups. Concerning the first distinction, the following are frequently reported occurrences in what are referred as cults (Almendros et al., 2007; Goldberg, 1997; Langone, 1996; Shaw, 2003, Young & Griffith, 1992; Zimbardo, 1997), coercion, intimidation, threats, physical and verbal abuse, manipulation, dishonesty (by leadership), sexual bullying, isolation and separation from friends and family, and forfeiture of personal finances.
Whereas those conditions certainly exist in legitimate organizations (Young & Griffith, 1997), they are often the exception rather than the rule. Concerning the second point: no legitimate religion, political movement—or any group for that matter—has a 100% retention rate, much less a 100% success rate in whatever areas of personal or social functioning that they purport to improve. However, with cults, the member is, more often than not, left in a much worse position than in which he started, whether it t be financially, psychologically, relationally, or some combination of these and other factors (Langone, 1996; Morse & Morse, 1987; Robinson, Frye, & Bradley, 1997).
The question, from a social-psychological perspective, of how an individual is drawn into and eventually controlled by a cult becomes one of established research. The power of social influence on conformity, as well as the power of an authority figure to induce compliance, have both been made abundantly clear and certainly play an integral role in cult integration. However, this perspective does not address the more internal dynamics that are activated through the cult experience, to which we attempt to speak. It has been observed that those who join cults do not appear to suffer significantly higher instances of psychological illness before entering the cult environment than the general population.
As Langone (1996) stated, “No particular psychopathology profile is associated with cult involvement, in part because cults, like many effective sales organizations, adjust their pitch to the personality and needs of their prospects” (p. 2). The acknowledgement that cult members are not qualitatively different from the general population in any specific area of adjustment or psychological functioning is an essential component of the current authors’ proposed theory. It is worth mentioning, however, that several authors have found that there are some developmental and relational factors that may make some individuals more susceptible to cult recruitment (Buxtant, Saroglou, Casalfiore, & Christians, 2007; Buxtant & Saroglou, 2008; Robinson, Frye, & Bradley, 1997).
The authors propose that many of the experiences of the cult member serve to weaken normal ego functioning through methods which induce dissociation (Ash, 1985; Goldberg, 1997; Morse & Morse, 1987), compromise critical thinking and volition (Goldberg, 1997; Morse & Morse, 1987; Robinson et al., 1997; Young & Griffith, 1992; Zimbardo, 1997), and impose tremendous social pressure to conform and comply (Hassan, 1988; Langone, 1996; Zimbardo, 1997). These experiences lead to the activation of a primitive level of object relationships and defensive operations that Otto Kernberg linked specifically to the borderline level of personality organization (Kernberg, 1976; Kernberg, 1984).
And from page 4:
“OBJECT RELATIONS THEORY AND ITS ROLE IN THE CULT EXPERIENCE
The role of object relations in the cult experience may only be a topic of conjecture but the authors propose, as have others, that the cult experience taps into unconscious attachment needs that motivate and direct the cult member’s behavior. As stated earlier, an intense process of dissociating and manipulating experiences set the stage for an ego regression.
This externally induced ego regression activates early attachment needs, a primitive level of object relationships and object representations, and corresponding engagements in primitive defensive operations. It is the emergence of these defensive operations that indicate the cult member is indeed operating, if only temporarily, at the borderline range of personality organization.”
From: Psychiatry Online
Ok – sorry for the long post – so just to reiterate my point here ‘tis again: Harmful and controlling cults use subliminally nefarious methods to access the deep unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
God is nowhere, usually would transcend the system but in this case should be below the leader. Like spaghetti sauce.
And the whole thing should be fold inward, with the leader in the center of a blob, not on top.
Basically a calzone. I'm thinking of a calzone.
Reading this, and seeing calzone, I'm thinking I'd like Guido Sarducci's take on the matter. Might be a 'novello' idea! I can just see him explaining while waving his hands around ...
Harmful and controlling cults use subliminally nefarious methods to access the deep unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
Ok – sorry for the long post – so just to reiterate my point here ‘tis again: Harmful and controlling cults use subliminally nefarious methods to access the deep unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
absolutely agree . . . "harmful and controlling cults" . . . are there healthy cults? All seriousness.
The leader alone does not make a cult. The leader is likely has narcissistic personality disorder NPD, MNL, or ASPD . . . a cluster B.
The follower alone does not make a cult. The follower, in the above article behaves as a borderline . . . a cluster B.
Reading this, and seeing calzone, I'm thinking I'd like Guido Sarducci's take on the matter. Might be a 'novello' idea! I can just see him explaining while waving his hands around ...
He did have a strong opinion about the proper way to eat corn on the cob.
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Bolshevik
I don't like the above diagram. It's obviously a hierarchy but that doesn't make it a cult.
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Bolshevik
This thing is too static and secure.
The rank and file should be in a state of flux. New recruits are always needed because people are always leaving due to the self-destructive nature of the group.
The middle management is in layers. That doesn't feel right. Should be more like columns. Interwoven like spaghetti. Or worms.
The top is the leader. Who should be moving like moving dry sand. Perpetually trying to take form, a real identity, but cannot.
God is nowhere, usually would transcend the system but in this case should be below the leader. Like spaghetti sauce.
And the whole thing should be fold inward, with the leader in the center of a blob, not on top.
Basically a calzone. I'm thinking of a calzone.
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T-Bone
I think Steven Hassan's hierarchy diagram is spot on for representing how harmful and controlling cults function...hey don't bring calzones into this...I loves me some calzones - but can't have them right now - I'm trying to lose weight.
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Bolshevik
I just googled Steve's hierarchy and images went . . . . Build The Boundaries!!
Calzones are innocent. Sorry.
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Bolshevik
I saw that image multiple times and it never mentioned him. Sorry Mr. Hassan. Just using it as a framework to place the schizoid core.
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Bolshevik
I mean, Hitler kept his inner circle on the back foot. Competing. He is speculated to have Either Narcissistic or Borderline PD. Had the core either way.
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Bolshevik
VPW had the core. Start there.
You can essentially seed cults by making cores? Take those out of circulation. Boom.
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Bolshevik
There was only one person on this website who described VPW up close to me. A long time ago.
Just throwing that out there. If anyone gets it.
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waysider
Wierwille was the big foot.
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Bolshevik
Also my doing, I'm sure
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Twinky
What's calzone?
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Twinky
Ah, got it. A cheese and ham pasty. Right.
Is there anything else on the menu in this Cafe?
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Bolshevik
Corn. Lots of friggin corn. Because Ohio.
The cult leader got away with it. Right? He won.
Why do they attack the followers? The followers already attack themselves. It's the nature of organism. Don't they know that?
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Twinky
Corn and sauerkraut. Yummy.
Hey, how about an omelette? Or fried chicken? Or ... (wait for it) ... caaaake!!!!!
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Bolshevik
I was ranting about one psychology becomes many. Then I worried about your diet. I'm going with omelettes and kraut.
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Bolshevik
Hey T-Bone,
Here's a LINK - Hassan is one of many cited in there - so we're getting somewhere
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Bolshevik
I don't know if you're familiar with object relations theory. Vaknin did a very simplified explanation I will see if I can find.
From the article:
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
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Bolshevik
Here's a youtube LINK on internal and external objects to explain personality disorders . . . which likely applies heavily to the cult leader
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Bolshevik
my quote done enmeshed with the post
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T-Bone
Hi Bolshevik,
) in remedial reading to understand what you’re talking about…thanks for that link – I browsed through the paper and quoted some interesting points further down in this post, that mainly get into the methods of a cult versus those used by “legitimate political, social, and religious groups/movements” …but after reading it I realized I needed to understand “object relations perspective” so I Googled that and found this:
You always have some interesting ideas and links…and it usually takes me doing some extra-credit work ( wonder if my credit is any good here
“Object relations is a variation of psychoanalytic theory that diverges from Sigmund Freud’s belief that humans are motivated by sexual and aggressive drives, suggesting instead that humans are primarily motivated by the need for contact with others—the need to form relationships.
The aim of an object relations therapist is to help an individual in therapy uncover early mental images that may contribute to any present difficulties in one’s relationships with others and adjust them in ways that may improve interpersonal functioning.
BASIC CONCEPTS IN OBJECT RELATIONS
In the context of object relations theory, the term "objects" refers not to inanimate entities but to significant others with whom an individual relates, usually one's mother, father, or primary caregiver. In some cases, the term object may also be used to refer to a part of a person, such as a mother's breast, or to the mental representations of significant others.”
From: Good Therapy.org
Now back to the “An Object Relations Approach to Cult Membership” paper from your link…and putting this stuff together with what I found elsewhere - it’s a fiendish process how harmful and controlling cults tap into unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
From the Abstract
"A distinction based on two sets of dynamics should be drawn between legitimate political, social, and religious groups/movements and cults. The first is the ‘methods cults use (as opposed to those used by more benign groups), the second is the disparity in outcomes between the two sets of groups. Concerning the first distinction, the following are frequently reported occurrences in what are referred as cults (Almendros et al., 2007; Goldberg, 1997; Langone, 1996; Shaw, 2003, Young & Griffith, 1992; Zimbardo, 1997), coercion, intimidation, threats, physical and verbal abuse, manipulation, dishonesty (by leadership), sexual bullying, isolation and separation from friends and family, and forfeiture of personal finances.
Whereas those conditions certainly exist in legitimate organizations (Young & Griffith, 1997), they are often the exception rather than the rule. Concerning the second point: no legitimate religion, political movement—or any group for that matter—has a 100% retention rate, much less a 100% success rate in whatever areas of personal or social functioning that they purport to improve. However, with cults, the member is, more often than not, left in a much worse position than in which he started, whether it t be financially, psychologically, relationally, or some combination of these and other factors (Langone, 1996; Morse & Morse, 1987; Robinson, Frye, & Bradley, 1997).
The question, from a social-psychological perspective, of how an individual is drawn into and eventually controlled by a cult becomes one of established research. The power of social influence on conformity, as well as the power of an authority figure to induce compliance, have both been made abundantly clear and certainly play an integral role in cult integration. However, this perspective does not address the more internal dynamics that are activated through the cult experience, to which we attempt to speak. It has been observed that those who join cults do not appear to suffer significantly higher instances of psychological illness before entering the cult environment than the general population.
As Langone (1996) stated, “No particular psychopathology profile is associated with cult involvement, in part because cults, like many effective sales organizations, adjust their pitch to the personality and needs of their prospects” (p. 2). The acknowledgement that cult members are not qualitatively different from the general population in any specific area of adjustment or psychological functioning is an essential component of the current authors’ proposed theory. It is worth mentioning, however, that several authors have found that there are some developmental and relational factors that may make some individuals more susceptible to cult recruitment (Buxtant, Saroglou, Casalfiore, & Christians, 2007; Buxtant & Saroglou, 2008; Robinson, Frye, & Bradley, 1997).
The authors propose that many of the experiences of the cult member serve to weaken normal ego functioning through methods which induce dissociation (Ash, 1985; Goldberg, 1997; Morse & Morse, 1987), compromise critical thinking and volition (Goldberg, 1997; Morse & Morse, 1987; Robinson et al., 1997; Young & Griffith, 1992; Zimbardo, 1997), and impose tremendous social pressure to conform and comply (Hassan, 1988; Langone, 1996; Zimbardo, 1997). These experiences lead to the activation of a primitive level of object relationships and defensive operations that Otto Kernberg linked specifically to the borderline level of personality organization (Kernberg, 1976; Kernberg, 1984).
And from page 4:
“OBJECT RELATIONS THEORY AND ITS ROLE IN THE CULT EXPERIENCE
The role of object relations in the cult experience may only be a topic of conjecture but the authors propose, as have others, that the cult experience taps into unconscious attachment needs that motivate and direct the cult member’s behavior. As stated earlier, an intense process of dissociating and manipulating experiences set the stage for an ego regression.
This externally induced ego regression activates early attachment needs, a primitive level of object relationships and object representations, and corresponding engagements in primitive defensive operations. It is the emergence of these defensive operations that indicate the cult member is indeed operating, if only temporarily, at the borderline range of personality organization.”
From: Psychiatry Online
Ok – sorry for the long post – so just to reiterate my point here ‘tis again:
Edited by T-BoneHarmful and controlling cults use subliminally nefarious methods to access the deep unconscious social needs that motivate and influence the cult member’s behavior.
typos and formatting
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Peruser
Reading this, and seeing calzone, I'm thinking I'd like Guido Sarducci's take on the matter. Might be a 'novello' idea! I can just see him explaining while waving his hands around ...
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Rocky
NOW we're getting somewhere.
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Bolshevik
absolutely agree . . . "harmful and controlling cults" . . . are there healthy cults? All seriousness.
The leader alone does not make a cult. The leader is likely has narcissistic personality disorder NPD, MNL, or ASPD . . . a cluster B.
The follower alone does not make a cult. The follower, in the above article behaves as a borderline . . . a cluster B.
So what's a cult?
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Bolshevik
He did have a strong opinion about the proper way to eat corn on the cob.
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