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The Abortion Doctrine


Bolshevik
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Galen's story is tragic.  But I think it show the weightiness of the decision on both sides.  It's not easy and shouldn't be.

Outside of TWI I've seen abortion used as an emotional weapon.  Carried out to inflict emotional pain on someone else, narcissistic supply.  There's more and it's all just selfish.

 

In TWI I think it was an example of an emotional numbing.  It was not a discussion.  Contrasting it with murder makes it a black and white decision and encourages indifference.

 

 

The Squirrel is back.  I knew today was a good day.

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On 10/3/2021 at 5:16 PM, OldSkool said:

To be clear, as far as TWI getting Biblical abortion right -- I've never really worked it in depth in over 10 years. My inclination is to agree that Biblically it's not murder. I think the issue that seems most egregious with TWI's PRACTICE based on the Bible is using it as an excuse for leadership seducing young women or another man's wife and then sending them off for an abortion to cover their tracks. Same with the practice of counseling someone to abort a baby to keep in line with the pregnancy policy. They used what seems to be Biblical truth as a license to sin, but what's new about that? 

I’m in agreement with all of that. Well said, OldSkool! 


I hope I’m not breaking the rules by crossing the threshold into politics – but I just wanted to add there is an absurdity afoot. There’s a new Texas law allowing people to carry handguns in public without a permit – so now there’s no required firearm training for safety, basic shooting skills or firearm retention. 2nd amendment folks know their rights! And besides that - just to shoot ourselves in the other foot  :rolleyes:   -   we’ve got folks who are anti-vaxxers and refuse to wear facemasks because they know their rights too!...but wait there’s more…And on top of that Texas has another new law – the new extreme abortion ban – which actually tasks private citizens with enforcing it by an incentive of being awarded $10,000 - the right-to-life folks are probably happy about that. 


I don’t understand the logic if you look at the big picture. There’s an inconsistency in the application of the unalienable rights “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. A woman who was raped by an uncle or her health is critically threatened by the pregnancy - must have that baby – nixing the mother’s right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. And what if this pregnant woman gets covid from an anti-vaxxer anti-masker neighbor? Or what if she goes shopping at Babies R Us at the mall and gets caught in the crossfire of a couple of gun toting hotheads? 


So it seems to me there's a big concern for a life that’s in the womb – but not that much of a concern for preserving a life once it’s out of the womb.  A woman who was raped by an uncle or her health is critically threatened by the pregnancy has no right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness   – but a gun toting anti-vaxxer anti-masker does? I don’t have an answer. I just wonder if we all can figure out the balance – of drawing the line - where exercising my rights will not infringe on the rights of others.
 

and just for the record I have a concealed handgun license, I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask, use hand-sanitizer and practice social distancing. And I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

. . .

I just wonder if we all can figure out the balance – of drawing the line - where exercising my rights will not infringe on the rights of others.

. . .

Are we calling Texas a cult? . . .   j/k

The NPD seeks to dissolve boundaries.  Coerced abortion was normalized through the Abortion Doctrine.  It HAD to not be murder.  

 

I can remember some of LCM's rants on the topic but I just grossed myself out recalling his words.

 

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26 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Are we calling Texas a cult? . . .   j/k

 

 

Holy crap !!!! Wouldn’t you know it. I jumped outta the frying pan and into the fire!  :biglaugh:

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The Texas law wouldn't be quite so awful if it imposed and enforced on the father of the child an equal responsibility for caring for the child and supporting it, especially financially - for all of its life - as most parents do, for their kids of any age.  And if the mother didn't really want the child, the father were to be forced to bring that child up himself.  With financial contribution from the mother, of course.

But I digress.  No such options were available within TWI.  Everything they did was to avoid financial responsibility.

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1 hour ago, Twinky said:

The Texas law wouldn't be quite so awful if it imposed and enforced on the father of the child an equal responsibility for caring for the child and supporting it, especially financially - for all of its life - as most parents do, for their kids of any age.  And if the mother didn't really want the child, the father were to be forced to bring that child up himself.  With financial contribution from the mother, of course.

But I digress.  No such options were available within TWI.  Everything they did was to avoid financial responsibility.

I understand your point – and I imagine there would have to be a lot of contingencies to work out – yeah like that’s gonna happen overnight - the way lawmakers turn anything into a political issue instead of addressing the actual problem. Like if the father was a serial rapist – if he gets caught and is incarcerated for a long time, how is he going to financially support his children (and I certainly don’t think he should be caring for any of them) – so then would his children qualify for financial assistance from the state as well as becoming wards of the state/court if the mothers can’t or won’t handle it? Or instead of incarcerating a serial rapist – should the state castrate him and then assist him in finding a good-paying job so he can support his children?


Oops I also digressed…No such options/contingencies were considered within TWI. Everything they did ignored financial and any parental/guardianship responsibilities – but I think probably the biggest snafu they wanted to avoid was the impact to their “customer base” if it became public knowledge that their beloved president and founder or any of his “sons” (ideologically speaking) were sexual predators.
 

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5 hours ago, Twinky said:

The Texas law wouldn't be quite so awful if it imposed and enforced on the father of the child an equal responsibility for caring for the child and supporting it, especially financially - for all of its life - as most parents do, for their kids of any age.  And if the mother didn't really want the child, the father were to be forced to bring that child up himself.  With financial contribution from the mother, of course.

But I digress.  No such options were available within TWI.  Everything they did was to avoid financial responsibility.

 

After giving your post some more thought – I wanted to elaborate further on a few details regarding Texas’ new abortion law. The following was on the news about it: 
“Texas Governor Greg Abbott defended his state's strict new abortion law, saying that it doesn't force victims of rape and incest to carry their pregnancy to term because it "provides at least 6 weeks for a person to be able to get an abortion." 


At the signing for a GOP-supported voting bill on Tuesday, a reporter asked Abbott why he would "force" a rape or incest victim to carry a pregnancy stemming from sexual assault to term. The new abortion law, which went into effect last week, outlaws abortion when a fetal heartbeat is detected — as early as 6 weeks into pregnancy and well before many women even know they are pregnant. 


The governor responded that the bill "doesn't require that at all because, obviously, it provides at least 6 weeks for a person to be able to get an abortion."


He also emphasized that "rape is a crime and Texas will work tirelessly that we eliminate all rapists from the streets of Texas by aggressively going out and arresting them and prosecuting them and getting them off the streets." 

The Texas Department of Public Safety reported that in 2019, there were more than 14,650 cases of rape reported in the state, making up nearly a quarter of all reported violent crimes. That same year, fewer than 3,900 people were arrested for rape and other sex offenses, according to the department.
The bill also allows civilians to sue anyone who helps someone get or performs an abortion for up to $10,000. 

New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told CNN's Anderson Cooper on Tuesday that Abbott's comments ignore the basic biology behind how and when people become pregnant.


"I'm sorry that we have to break down biology 101 on national television, but in case no one has informed him before in his life, 6 weeks pregnant means 2 weeks late for your period," she said. "And 2 weeks late for your period for any person with a menstrual cycle, can happen if you're stressed, if your diet changes, or for really no reason at all. So you don't have 6 weeks."  


In regards to Abbott's comments about seeking to "eliminate all rapists," Ocasio-Cortez said that most rape victims are assaulted by people who they know. When it happens, it can take victims a long time to come forward, and when they do, not everyone wants to "retraumatize themselves by going to court."
From: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-abortion-law-governor-abbott-rape-victims-six-weeks/

In a previous post I described the victim as “a woman who was raped by an uncle” for the very reason NY Rep Ocasio-Cortez mentioned - most rape victims are assaulted by people who they know. I liked Twinky’s idea – that the law “imposed and enforced on the father of the child an equal responsibility for caring for the child and supporting it, especially financially - for all of its life - as most parents do, for their kids of any age. “ There are some similarities to Old Testament passages that address rape and various contingencies – one website I found    - here – at Got Questions org     https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html  does a good job of covering the basics  - and we have to keep in mind that was a different time, culture and social mores. 

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Another disheartening bit of news I came across was about law enforcement’s neglect in processing rape kits – this negligence is a nationwide problem:
“In the most detailed nationwide inventory of untested rape kits ever, USA TODAY and journalists from more than 75 Gannett newspapers and TEGNA TV stations have found at least 70,000 neglected kits in an open-records campaign covering 1,000-plus police agencies – and counting. Despite its scope, the agency-by-agency count covers a fraction of the nation's 18,000 police departments, suggesting the number of untested rape kits reaches into the hundreds of thousands.

The kits contain forensic evidence collected from survivors in a painstaking and invasive process that can last four to six hours. Testing can yield DNA evidence that helps identify suspects, bolster prosecutions and in some cases exonerate the wrongly accused.

The records reveal widespread inconsistency in how police handle rape evidence from agency to agency, and even officer to officer. Some departments test every rape kit. Others send as few as two in 10 to crime labs.

Decades of promises from politicians, and more than $1 billion in federal funding, has failed to fix the problems. The roughly $1,000 cost to analyze each kit is among the hindrances for police.

Records obtained from police agencies in all 50 states show:

• While attention has been focused on large metro police agencies, tens of thousands of untested sexual assault kits are accumulating almost without notice at rural and smaller city departments. Hundreds of rape kits remain untested in places like Muncie, Ind., Visalia, Calif., St. Cloud, Minn., and Green Bay, Wis.

• In most states and at most law enforcement agencies, there are no written guidelines for processing sex-crime evidence. Decisions often are left to the discretion of investigating officers, leading to inconsistencies.” 
From: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/16/untested-rape-kits-evidence-across-usa/29902199/

 

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If I may be so bold as to offer some modifications to the new Texas abortion law – maybe criminal investigation, justice and financial responsibility might be better served:


1.    Nix the vigilante civilians being allowed to sue anyone who helps someone get or performs an abortion for up to $10,000. Instead award $10,000 – to be split up however they see fit - to everyone – including the victim - having information that leads to the identification and capture of the rapist. If it’s her uncle and he hasn’t left town yet - then the niece gets the entire $10K. As further recompense, the IRS and any current or future employers will be notified of the rapist’s financial responsibility to support their child for the rest of the child’s life through the process of garnishing wages and assets. 

2. matter of fact nix the whole new law - just go back to the way things were...it seems to me what drives draconian measures like Texas' new abortion law is a fear that Roe v. Wade will be overturned.


3.    Require that all rapists wear a name tag with their qualification.  This would really help the police in Texas find all those rapists that are roaming the streets. For example:

Hi my name is Joe Schmoe and I’m a rapist     - Or to minimize the shame – like if you only raped your niece once
Hi my name is Joe Schmoe and I’ve only raped somebody once    - 

These nametags can be tailored to your church needs:
Hi I’m Reverend Joe Schmoe limb coordinator for the great state of [fill in the blank] and I’m a sexual predator  - well, a bit boastful if you ask me throwing around titles and status but if you want to justify the crime it can read 
Hi I’m Reverend Joe Schmoe limb coordinator for the great state of [fill in the blank] and I’m a sexual predator but I tell all my victims they should consider it abundant sharing


4.    I’m a big fan of Lisbeth Salander the main character in     The Girl with the Dragon Tatoo series   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Tattoo_Stories_(film_series)     - so I thought as another punishment for the serial rapist – in lieu of not always having to wear the nasty nametag – should have a tattoo on their forehead 
I’m a serial rapist so you know what’s on my mind     - maybe that should be tattooed on both cheeks as well - this way for their mug shots you've got it on both the front and profile picture...gives new meaning to "turn the other cheek" and something being said twice means it's established - but wait a minute he's got it on his forehead too - aha - he must be a Trinitarian - these three statements agree as one.
 

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I know, I know, T-Bone.  Forcing financial support wouldn't work against every putative father.  In cases where the male can't pay (broke, in prison, etc), perhaps make the State pay?  At punitive rates?  Since the State imposed the bloody silly law, it should take responsibility for that which it causes to happen.  Texas is a rich state.  Plenty of dosh.  

Rape is a bit off-topic in this discussion, but personally, I've been all in favour of making the punishment fit the crime.  Chop the man's "tickle tackle" off.  Then he can't rape with that any more (of course, he could use implements like bottles).  So.  Let's chop his hands off as well.  Tattooing his forehead announces him to the world.  And specifically to women.

Yeah.  Fierce penalties.  I'm a woman.  I'm entitled to feel fierce about my own safety and my own body.  

(I'm not serious about that load of penalties.  But I'm damn sure that if men had to face the reality of the violence perpetrated against women by suffering it themselves, they'd treat rape and all forms of violence against women rather differently.)

 

In any event, there are many, many, more reasons than rape, as to why women seek abortions.  And few women will treat it as lightly as cutting their fingernails.  Even if that is how TWI treated it.

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7 hours ago, Twinky said:

. . . 

 

In any event, there are many, many, more reasons than rape, as to why women seek abortions.  And few women will treat it as lightly as cutting their fingernails.  Even if that is how TWI treated it.

All data I've looked at so far says rape/incest/deformities are mostly <1% of the reasons for abortions.

In this thread we are talking about people whose minds and hearts are under the influence of a cult, women included.

The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?

 

Further, let's not forget Origen.

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13 hours ago, Twinky said:

In any event, there are many, many, more reasons than rape, as to why women seek abortions.  And few women will treat it as lightly as cutting their fingernails.  Even if that is how TWI treated it.

 

5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

All data I've looked at so far says rape/incest/deformities are mostly <1% of the reasons for abortions.

In this thread we are talking about people whose minds and hearts are under the influence of a cult, women included.

The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?

 

Further, let's not forget Origen.

That’s some good points Twinky and Bolshevik!
Your posts got me looking into all the reasons:

here's one article:

“3.5% of Abortions Are for the “Hard Cases”
Calculations based on statistics provided by medical journals and government surveys in the United States show that abortions for the “hard cases” are much rarer than most people believe.

A survey of more than 2.4 million aborting women performed by the states of Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota and Utah during the years 1996 to 2020 gives us an accurate estimate of the number of “hard case” abortions, since these are the numbers that abortion clinics must report in official documents to these states:

1.14% are done to save the life or physical health of the mother.
1.28% to preserve the mental health of the mother.
0.39% in cases of rape or incest.
0.69% for fetal birth defects, or eugenics.
3.50% for all the hard cases combined.
96.50% of all abortions are therefore performed for social or economic reasons.
Even the Guttmacher Institute puts the number of abortions done for the hard cases under 7% after doing several surveys of women obtaining abortions (the Guttmacher Institute was the research arm of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the largest chain of abortion clinics in the United States. It is considered the most reliable provider of accurate statistics on abortion).

Statistics from Other Nations

The reasons for abortions all over the world are largely the same. In 1998, the Guttmacher Institute published the results of studies showing that lifestyle reasons also predominate among aborting women in other nations. Its summary of surveys performed in 26 countries outside the United States showed the primary reasons for aborting given by the 62,658 women interviewed.3

Since rape and incest are included under “other reasons,” a maximum of 5.8% of all abortions performed in other countries are done for the hard cases, and a minimum of 94.2% are performed to preserve the mother’s lifestyle or to please those close to her.

The Guttmacher Institute duplicated their survey twenty years later in different nations and arrived at identical results. Its 2017 study of 39,622 women obtaining abortions in twelve nations also revealed that only 5.8% of all abortions are done for the “hard cases.”

The Takeaway

Even people who wish to argue that the hard cases justify abortion must admit that these hard cases occur only a tiny minority of the time, and that the vast majority are performed for social and economic reasons.”


From: https://www.hli.org/resources/why-women-abort/


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A much earlier research project had similar findings –  four near the top of the list gave various social reasons  - and at the top of the list at 40% was for financial reasons:


“Common Abortion Reasons
Research collected from 2008 through 2010 asked women about the reasons for getting an abortion.
 Some listed multiple reasons for their decision. The reasons, and the percentage of women who gave each one, are:
Not financially prepared: 40%
Bad timing, not ready, or unplanned: 36%
Partner-related reasons (including the relationship is bad or new, she doesn't want to be a single mother, her partner is not supportive, does not want the baby, is abusive, or is the wrong guy): 31%
Need to focus on her other children: 29%
Interferes with educational or vocational plans: 20%
Not emotionally or mentally prepared: 19%
Health-related reasons (includes concern for her own health, the health of the fetus, use of prescription or non-prescription drugs, alcohol, or tobacco): 12%
Want a better life for a baby than she could provide: 12%
Not independent or mature enough for a baby: 7%
Influences from family or friends: 5%
Doesn't want a baby or to place the baby for adoption: 4%


This survey used open-ended questions rather than having women select from a checklist of researcher-generated reasons. Previous surveys that had a set of answers got many responses for these reasons:
Having a baby would dramatically change my life
I have completed my childbearing
Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant


It's also interesting to point out that most women cite two to four reasons for abortion, not just one.


In general, younger women often cite that they are unprepared for the transition to motherhood, and older women consistently indicate that they are already responsible for children and/or are past the childbearing stage in their lives.”

From: https://www.verywellhealth.com/reasons-for-abortion-906589  
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Bolshevik: “In this thread we are talking about people whose minds and hearts are under the influence of a cult, women included.
The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?”


Yes – BUT – I tend to think the abortion doctrine that TWI promoted and perhaps even in some anti-abortion groups there is a gender bias to it; Gender bias is a preference or prejudice toward one gender over the other - bias can be conscious or unconscious, subtle, or obvious. I believe in the context of TWI and in some anti-abortion groups the gender bias favors the men. Men assume authority over a woman’s reproductive freedom – it’s a method of control - in TWI a leader might tell the woman to get an abortion to cover the affair. Laws that make access to abortion difficult will usually have a negative impact financially and socially – according to the research I’ve seen. If it was the other way around – men getting pregnant instead of women – I bet men would have the reproductive freedom to make a choice – and I bet it would probably be for similar reasons i.e., financial, social, a threat to health. Most things are structured to give the male the advantage.  It’s a man’s world.


From an article “What Exactly Does 'It's A Man's World' Mean?


…Despite the fact that just more than 20 years ago, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) mandated diversity in its clinical trials, these pronounced gender and racial gaps persists. "Medical research that is either sex- or gender-neutral or skewed to male physiology," wrote the researchers of a study of disparities in medicine, "puts women at risk for missed opportunities for prevention, incorrect diagnoses, misinformed treatments, sickness and even death."


It gets better. Until the passage of the Affordable Care Act, which eliminated overtly discriminatory gender pricing, women paid financially for not having male bodies. Prior to the act, 38% of women seeking individual insurance coverage were rejected, charged a higher premium on the basis of their gender (this was legal in 42 states), or had to purchase coverage that excluded the "pre-existing condition" of having been pregnant. Pregnancy is construed, as Travis put it, "as a disability, rather than, say, an additional ability," a matter of subjectivity in the end.

In effect, having a female body was a limiting and expensive preexisting condition. (Women who'd survived domestic violence and sought prior medical attention were also uninsurable. The violence, unlike other crimes, was considered a "preexisting condition.")


The way that insurance companies successfully commoditized this male-centeredness takes place every day. Women pay more for a non-standard, female "shrink it and pink it" marketing, not because the products and services are different, but because gender pricing is cheap, legal and highly profitable. In France, women have had enough and after widespread protests, France's finance ministry is investigating "the invisible woman tax" levied on thousands of products and services.


Which gets us to law. Jurisprudence is still frequently based on "reasonable man" standards that assume male bodies and experiences. A man is far more likely to be threatened by another man who is not an intimate partner and is of roughly equal size and strength. Women, however, are most likely to be assaulted and killed by an intimate partner, most frequently a man, on average larger.

In addition, our largely "sticks and stones" approach to crime is highly gendered in ways that hurt men and women. It is one that prioritizes visible, physical violence (masculinized) over invisible, psychological and emotional harm (feminized). Ideas about "imminent harm," and self-defense continue to ignore these critical differences. As a result, harms to women are minimized and women's survival strategies are criminalized and excessively punished. 

The average prison sentence for men who kill spouses is two to six years. Women? 15 years. Tens of thousands of women are in jail or dead because of these standards.
From: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-exactly-does-its-a-mans-world-mean_b_7454660 
 

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Not sure I follow that, maybe some things are being conflated.  Gender Bias?  I think we're forgetting that a cult is an effort to escape the larger culture to cocoon a false image a false self.

In TWI the wooden spoon, for example, is genderless.  People are objects for projection.  This is a shared fantasy realm where narcissistic rage is center stage.  All meaning and identity is erased.

The fetus was tirelessly reduced and compared to . . . Trash let's say.  Even if intended to continue to birth.

 

I think one can stop and realize there's more significance to a pregnancy than was practiced in TWI . . . And not need to stop and point out who has what rights historically.

I can certainly agree there were numerous methods for control in TWI, by reducing boundaries, by reducing the value of people.

Gender relations in TWI might be a good topic for another thread.  I don't mean to do that in this one.  Potential parents come in multiple genders.

 

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Good post, T-Bone, though somewhat off topic.  Would be interesting to discuss in Open.

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11 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Not sure I follow that, maybe some things are being conflated.  Gender Bias?  I think we're forgetting that a cult is an effort to escape the larger culture to cocoon a false image a false self.

In TWI the wooden spoon, for example, is genderless.  People are objects for projection.  This is a shared fantasy realm where narcissistic rage is center stage.  All meaning and identity is erased.

The fetus was tirelessly reduced and compared to . . . Trash let's say.  Even if intended to continue to birth.

 

I think one can stop and realize there's more significance to a pregnancy than was practiced in TWI . . . And not need to stop and point out who has what rights historically.

I can certainly agree there were numerous methods for control in TWI, by reducing boundaries, by reducing the value of people.

Gender relations in TWI might be a good topic for another thread.  I don't mean to do that in this one.  Potential parents come in multiple genders.

 

 

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

Good post, T-Bone, though somewhat off topic.  Would be interesting to discuss in Open.

 

No conflation intended – and there was no attempt to conflate – matter of fact, to the contrary, concerning where gender bias was applicable, I distinctly separated TWI’s abortion doctrine from the rest of TWI’s subculture:

16 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Yes – BUT – I tend to think the abortion doctrine that TWI promoted and perhaps even in some anti-abortion groups there is a gender bias to it; Gender bias is a preference or prejudice toward one gender over the other - bias can be conscious or unconscious, subtle, or obvious. I believe in the context of TWI and in some anti-abortion groups the gender bias favors the men. Men assume authority over a woman’s reproductive freedom – it’s a method of control - in TWI a leader might tell the woman to get an abortion to cover the affair. Laws that make access to abortion difficult will usually have a negative impact financially and socially – according to the research I’ve seen. If it was the other way around – men getting pregnant instead of women – I bet men would have the reproductive freedom to make a choice – and I bet it would probably be for similar reasons i.e., financial, social, a threat to health. Most things are structured to give the male the advantage.  It’s a man’s world.


 

Gender bias in TWI’s abortion doctrine really exerts a similar influential force like the anti-abortion groups to nix a woman’s freedom to choose. It's all about men having some control over women...only in the case of TWI-culture – the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader who got the woman pregnant might pressure the woman any way he can to get an abortion and coverup the scandal – thus undermining her reproductive freedom of choice. What if she wants to have the baby? What if she thinks abortion is wrong? That doesn’t matter to the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader. What he’s worried about is what if his wife or congregation find out about it.

Bolshevik & Twinky, I agree with you both – my posts were a bit off topic – sorry about that.

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49 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

 

No conflation intended – and there was no attempt to conflate – matter of fact, to the contrary, concerning where gender bias was applicable, I distinctly separated TWI’s abortion doctrine from the rest of TWI’s subculture:

Gender bias in TWI’s abortion doctrine really exerts a similar influential force like the anti-abortion groups to nix a woman’s freedom to choose. It's all about men having some control over women...only in the case of TWI-culture – the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader who got the woman pregnant might pressure the woman any way he can to get an abortion and coverup the scandal – thus undermining her reproductive freedom of choice. What if she wants to have the baby? What if she thinks abortion is wrong? That doesn’t matter to the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader. What he’s worried about is what if his wife or congregation find out about it.

Bolshevik & Twinky, I agree with you both – my posts were a bit off topic – sorry about that.

The first of my children was born while still involved in TWI.  The Abortion Doctrine was the final straw.  They could abuse me, but not my kids.  I stated my opinion but the choice was ultimately his mother's . . . although our marriage didn't survive TWI I remain thankful for her decision.

I was no leader, but they use children, from the moment of conception, to push their agenda.

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3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

The first of my children was born while still involved in TWI.  The Abortion Doctrine was the final straw.  They could abuse me, but not my kids.  I stated my opinion but the choice was ultimately his mother's . . . although our marriage didn't survive TWI I remain thankful for her decision.

I was no leader, but they use children, from the moment of conception, to push their agenda.

Yeah – that is sad but true.


I understand your perspective on TWI’s narcissistic cult-leaders. My points were to show that the cult of TWI has more than one dysfunctionality trait – and that other maladjusted characteristics can be found in other TWI-doctrines. Just going on TWI’s version of gender bias (unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic men having an unfair advantage over women)   can be found in PFAL – wierwille slipping in a justification for David’s adultery by saying technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king. And further on into settings like wierwille’s Christian Family and Sex class or routinely showing a porn video to in-residence way corps all the while soft-pedaling his licentious attitude by saying things like “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me” and “anything done in the love of God is okay”. These were all ways for wierwille to lay the groundwork to have (besides other malicious purposes) an advantage over women.

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3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

anything done in the love of God is okay

Husband: "I'll just chop your dick off then, so's you won't rape my wife, or any other women, again."  (Very loving, and showing willingness to defend all women)

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On 10/6/2021 at 10:16 AM, Bolshevik said:

The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?

 

 

10 hours ago, Twinky said:

Husband: "I'll just chop your dick off then, so's you won't rape my wife, or any other women, again."  (Very loving, and showing willingness to defend all women)

Yes Twinky ! An excellent point of showing the enormous latitude TWI-folks may find in TWI-doctrines / TWI-mindset / TWI-pat phrases  and the potential for causing great damage.


To elaborate on my post that you referenced:

I, T-Bone have said the following in an earlier post  :rolleyes: :

"I understand your perspective on TWI’s narcissistic cult-leaders. My points were to show that the cult of TWI has more than one dysfunctionality trait – and that other maladjusted characteristics can be found in other TWI-doctrines. Just going on TWI’s version of gender bias (unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic men having an unfair advantage over women)   can be found in PFAL – wierwille slipping in a justification for David’s adultery by saying technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king. And further on into settings like wierwille’s Christian Family and Sex class or routinely showing a porn video to in-residence way corps all the while soft-pedaling his licentious attitude by saying things like “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me” and “anything done in the love of God is okay”. These were all ways for wierwille to lay the groundwork to have (besides other malicious purposes) an advantage over women."

 

People need to bear in mind the multi-purpose use of TWI’s version of gender bias  - one motive is so that unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic male TWI-leaders can have an unfair advantage over women. Take for example, the two seemingly Biblically based but actually insidious and mind-numbing pat phrases that I mentioned in the above quote  - they are exact quotes from wierwille – I’ve observed him saying both of them in the context of supposedly teaching what the Bible says about sexual matters in the Christian Family and Sex class and with him showing a porn video to in-residence way corps as a way to supposedly prepare us to handle anything when believers come to us for counseling:


Example of how  an unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader might use either of the two stupefying phrases: 


A woman goes to a TWI-leader for counseling because her husband is not that affectionate anymore and she even admits she has grown cold and doesn’t think she could respond emotionally or physically to her husband anymore. [ I will cut to the chase instead of pointing out why this counseling setup is wrong to begin with]


…Now if this happens to be one of those unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders that I mentioned earlier – then he just might start leading the conversation down a seductive path – saying stuff like “Maybe at some point we need to get your husband in on this conversation. But right now, I am puzzled why your husband is that way. You know, at Branch and Area meetings I’ve seen how standoffish you both appear to be around each other. You are always so sweet and attractive – if you were my wife I’d be hugging and kissing you like crazy to make sure every guy knows you’re mine.” He laughs a little as if it was an innocent and amusing comment. She blushes and giggles slightly – but he could tell by her body language she is very uptight.


“Fortunately” his wife is out of town visiting her parents. He offers her a little wine to make her feel more relaxed. After a couple of hours and a few glasses of wine the conversation has softened her up and crossed many boundaries. She admits she has always found the TWI-leader attractive – even sexy (oops did she really just say that out loud? Maybe it’s the wine talking)… and she hemmed and hawed when she was trying to tell him she was even kind of envious when she watched how he was always sweet and affectionate to all the women at any ministry function. 


As if feigning a moment of inspiration – he twitches his head slightly, says “well then…” stands up, walks over to her – reaches down and clasps both her hands to pull her up to stand in front of him – face to face. He then hugs her and gives her a soft lingering peck on the cheek. Her face is flushed – her breath catches. “You mean like -  that?” he says…She stammers out words that come quickly – as when a lot of people do when they’re nervous – caught off guard and don’t know what to say or do…she admits out loud she’s very uptight…she doesn’t know how to react to that…but he’s as cool as a cucumber – so she stares intently into his eyes…for some reason she recalls the scene from The Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing the “Trust in me” song…sure…this is okay…he’s being a big brother to me…but then he leans in and gives her a long passionate kiss on the lips…Mayday Mayday !! she’s wondering if she can handle this…relax…don’t freak out…don’t show the man of God you’re a baby…she’s wondering if this situation is wrong…she’s confused…reminds herself this is an ordained clergyman…[Now TWI-fans here comes the windup pitch]:


Then the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader says:  
I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me


[or he could say]


Anything done in the love of God is okay”.

Slick soap opera camera editing shows pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of an AT-A-Glance Weekly/Monthly Planner flying by ( the planner appointment book with the reminder to order your next year's planner at the end of August, it's product number 76-950-05 in The Way Bookstore online catalog - call now operators are standing by   :rolleyes:   ) - and now it's a full blown affair – several months down the road, she announces to the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader that she is pregnant. His demeanor becomes stone cold. He tries not to flinch or sound nervous or afraid as he says “I think it’s best you get an abortion. Doctor taught us there’s nothing wrong with that. And you need to think about how any knowledge of this getting out would hurt the immature believers who are not spiritually strong enough in The Word - uhm...they wouldn't understand. But the love of God thinketh no evil - right? You and I are spiritually mature – we can handle stuff like this. Remember doing anything in the love of God is okay.”

Let’s take a break from that steamy romance novel  :biglaugh:   to consider another aspect    – as Bolshevik mentioned earlier “The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?”  In a harmful and controlling cult there is sort of a trickledown effect with insidious ideologies – where ideas and behavior gradually, by remote or indirect influences - flow from the upper unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leadership down to the lower ranks. Realistically, not everyone is receptive to such unprincipled thoughts and behavior – but those who are – or may already have similar predilections and just need some “mentoring”   :evilshades: tend to be very ambitious – to rise in the ranks and have access to the perks – the desirable “extras” that come with a position or status. It’s a red letter day when you get to the point in your “walk with God” that you can easily use the same pat phrases “ambi-flextrously” (that’s a new word I just invented   :rolleyes:  and refers to  unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders saying the same thing to get them in or out of trouble. For example, part of his seductive rap is “anything done in the love of God is okay” and that gets him laid…She gets pregnant – he recommends she get an abortion and to alleviate any qualms she might have about getting an abortion he says “anything done in the love of God is okay”). Two sides of the same wooden nickel.

These aspiring unscrupulous and horny dudes usually learn by seeing examples. The “best” teachers are those that practice what they preach – even in a narcissistic and multi-dysfunctional harmful and controlling cult like TWI. The more involved I got in TWI and moved up in status – going in the way corps - the privier I became to see exactly how the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders modeled living “The Word”. It was all hypocrisy on the order    of    Matthew 23     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV  . To understand how TWI-followers get to the point of being unaware of wierwille’s licentious nature is to understand how a sexual predator can be hidden in plain sight. It is by masking his true nature in the guise of a man of God, a teacher of the Bible.  ... I bet if you showed a video of some of those times to anyone  - ANYONE  - who was not so indoctrinated with wierwille's twisted ideology - after they recovered from that shocking presentation (which could take a while) they might say something like "so who is this joker and what qualifies him to teach the Bible and act so authoritatively ?

So even though I've witnessed him doing and saying some inappropriate stuff innumerable times - it never registered in my head that wierwille was a sexual predator - even the night he showed us the porn video and then worked on guilting us into feeling bad if we were not mature enough to handle it. They say love is blind. I had such an enormous respect and admiration for wierwille - probably bordering on idolatry - that I paid no attention to any of his shortcomings nor ever realized  anything about him was amiss. Such is the blinding condition of a cultic-mindset.   :mad2:    
 

 

And it wasn't just wierwille...there were other unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders - like LCM. I remember one corps night Craig was on a rant about something - - maybe it was about not having regrets in your walk with God...he talked about living your life without fear of failure...if you love God everything is going to be okay...trust in God's providence...he won't let you totally screw up your life or anyone else's    ( wow ! how's that for a humdinger of a lie!?!? have no fear our beloved cult-leader says we don't have to feel responsible for our negligence or acts of abuse to others) ...anyway... he starts talking about abortion...and I guess it was to alleviate the guilt and shame of any women who have already had an abortion - or maybe it was also a type of  preemptive manipulation to some woman in particular who was being pressured to have an abortion - Craig says something like "what's in the past is past. It's not like you killed the next Apostle Paul." ... ... ... ... ...Grease Spotters, I don't care if you're pro-life or pro-choice  - that was just an awfully cold, callous, flippant, and demeaning thing for Craig to say.


As God, Jesus Christ and my wife are witness I can speak with a clear conscience – I have never sought after, indulged in nor found appealing the hidden licentious lifestyle of these unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders. and I’m not the holier-than-thou type and I wasn’t the only honest and decent way corps person. There were hundreds if not thousands of good folks like me who truly loved God, served fellow believers the best we could and probably made life in a harmful and controlling cult somewhat tolerable. 

 

When I was in TWI for 12 years, I was never aware of that stuff. And it’s sobering to think about how treacherous a cult can be when you consider all the other people in positions of power and authority of the group besides the cult-leader who know what goes on and yet are complicit. And I should say something about ignorant facilitators like me – unaware of all the deceit, abuses of power, and illicit behavior. I was such a naively enthusiastic flunky who constantly talked about how great it was "to serve God and His ministry" – which now I’ve come to realize - that was just the Kool-Aid talking.

* * * * *                                                             * * * * * 

 

 

 

Hey Grease Spotters and moderators – sorry for all the tangents and off-topic stuff…feel free to report any of my posts – and moderators feel free to delete any of them. I don’t know if it’s a certain topic…the time of day…or that I’ve finished binge-watching Friends – but somedays it’s like a bulging can of worms in my head – that I know is a sure sign of botulism, but I open it anyway…I post about it…feels ugly and awkward to write about …I know reading this stuff is kinda like watching someone puke…anyway …I feel better now…Thanks for putting up with me.

Edited by T-Bone
typos and formatting…it’s 12:01am…editing is complete…thanks be to God…go the mass has ended :)
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The only time I heard the subject mentioned (I was yanked out at the end of 1979 soon after my sexual assault) was at ROA 1978 when VPW called the corps going WOW into the woods for a chat. He basically advised us to watch ourselves sexually, as he has already had to pay for several abortions, claiming he didn't like abortions. But I never heard him utter anything else on the subject. He sure sounded like it was more of a matter of inconvenience than anything else.

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