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The article Allan cited to prove NIH was funding "risky virus research" at Wuhan SPECIFICALLY SAYS COVID 19 was not a result of that research. When I repeated that, he said my assertion, TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM THE ARTICLE HE POSTED, "beggars belief."

Of course we know my comment is valid and not BS because if it were BS, Allan would have embraced it and spread it halfway around the world by now.

COVID misinformation and distortion is prolonging the pandemic. We will not permit the spread of misinformation on this site. Stop misrepresenting the research. Stop promoting agenda-driven political findings disguised as medical research.

Thank you.

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It's rare for kids to die from Covid. It can and does happen, though.

HERE is an example.

Most (but not all) the kids in the article had other health problems, such as obesity, which is a major problem here in the U.S.A.

But, suppose for a moment that kids really don't die from Covid. (They do, of course.)

Kids that are in otherwise good health can develop MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children.) Internal organs can be permanently damaged. Even the brain can become damaged. They might have to live with disabilities the rest of their lives. If that's not enough, what happens if they bring it home to Grandma and Grandpa or old Mr. Johnson, who lives in that big blue, rundown house on the corner? Who'll feed all those cats if he catches it and dies? Well, it won't be me. I can tell you that.

 

Incidentally, that century-old mandate mentioned earlier is Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905).
 

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25 minutes ago, waysider said:

It's rare for kids to die from Covid. It can and does happen, though.

HERE is an example.

Most (but not all) the kids in the article had other health problems, such as obesity, which is a major problem here in the U.S.A.

But, suppose for a moment that kids really don't die from Covid. (They do, of course.)

Kids that are in otherwise good health can develop MIS-C (multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children.) Internal organs can be permanently damaged. Even the brain can become damaged. They might have to live with disabilities the rest of their lives. If that's not enough, what happens if they bring it home to Grandma and Grandpa or old Mr. Johnson, who lives in that big blue, rundown house on the corner? Who'll feed all those cats if he catches it and dies? Well, it won't be me. I can tell you that.

 

Incidentally, that century-old mandate mentioned earlier is Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905).
 

Im glad you noted that most that died had underlying health issues including obesity...it's when you add the "but, suppose for a moment that's kids really don't die from covid (they do of course) that, to me invalidates what you're attempting to embellish. You JUST SAID THEY HAD OTHER HEALTH ISSUES....

WW - 'virtually no-one' 16 or under gets seriously ill or dies from covid is what I said NOT 'absolutely no-one' and what you subsequently posted per link backs that up ! You then went on to post that " the few news readers that gave lip service to covid being a gray area were the first to rush out and get vaxxed."
Joe Rogan is one that didn't that springs to mind so did you mean virtually all or absolutely all of the few ??:)

Modcat- "spreading dangerous information here regarding covid"....are you implying people on this forum are brainless or simpletons ?? or are you under the impression this forum is broadcast around the world ?? lol

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4 minutes ago, Allan said:

You JUST SAID THEY HAD OTHER HEALTH ISSUES.

They don't need to have other health issues to develop MIS-C. Only time will show us what the long-term effects may be, just as we are now seeing the long-term effects of Polio in people who, years later,  have PPS (Post Polio Syndrome). Yes, that's a genuine health issue. I know someone who suffers from it. Imagine what the world would be like if we had reacted this way to the Polio vaccine. Just looking at a photo of  someone in the Iron Lung gives me the heeby jeebies.

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Not all "underlying health conditions" are obvious.  Obesity, sure, but other things?  Diabetes, maybe.  Other things?  Perhaps not; the "underlying condition" may only be discovered after the child has begun to suffer the serious illness.

It appears only one child <16 has died in England in the first three months of 2020 - don't know about Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales.  Child mortality in England during the COVID-19 pandemic | Archives of Disease in Childhood (bmj.com)

That doesn't count serious illness.  I know several kids of that age or younger who have been quite poorly.

 

I think it much better to concentrate on the bigger picture.  Where there are high vaccination uptake rates - the UK, some US states, elsewhere in Europe - deaths and serious illness have gone down markedly.  Where there are low uptake rates, deaths and serious illnesses are rising.

 

Allan, you said you've had covid TWICE.  That should prove to you that having covid DOESN'T confer sufficient immunity.  Glad it's not seriously affected you; maybe a third time will.  (Remind me: what did U*u die of?  Covid complications, was it? And he was a pretty fit chap.) 

You should be thankful that you live in a country that has a high uptake of vaccination (so that should protect you quite a lot from actually getting the illness, though not from the effects if you catch it again) and you have great medical facilities to help anyone who does get it and has serious problems.

And yes, it appears some covid complications may be very long-lasting, with permanent damage caused to some organs.  A life lived, a full life, but not necessarily quite the life the person wanted.  We don't know enough about that yet.

I know two people who have post-polio syndrome.  Retirement age, but not quite as they wished.  One has breathing difficulties, the other has damage to her leg, which looks as though it's been put together with all the joints the wrong way round and she walks with the most peculiar rolling gait.  She knows that's PPS.

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For those interested, this is an article that popped into my newsfeed this morning.  It's a summary of some scientific work just released: 

Scientist solve why some people die from Covid and not others | Evening Standard

 

And for those who prefer it from the horse's mouth, it's here.  I confess I haven't yet read this longer, very technical article, but it looks reputable, and cites many sources.  The publishing journal "Nature" has been established for >100 years and has a good reputation.

I leave the article to the naysayers to cherrypick.

Identification of LZTFL1 as a candidate effector gene at a COVID-19 risk locus | Nature Genetics

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Ok, one more time:

Comorbidities are conditions that are exacerbated when an opportunistic disease is introduced.

Simply put: COVID doesn't typically kill on its own. It kills by weakening our defenses on other conditions that would not necessarily be deadly without it.

Recognizing the role of comorbidities in the severity of COVID is information.

Implying that therefore the threat of COVID is somehow being exaggerated is misinformation, not to mention unintelligent as an argument.

STOP. USING. GSC. TO. SPREAD. MISINFORMATION.

Every faulty argument you have made has been refuted, Allan. Please stop.

 

 

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Allan:

"WW - 'virtually no-one' 16 or under gets seriously ill or dies from covid is what I said NOT 'absolutely no-one' and what you subsequently posted per link backs that up ! "

WordWolf responds:

It's time to give up when the only way one can win a point is by making up things somebody never said, then making fun of them for saying it.    I ran down why kids aren't dying from Covid in the few cases that DO get it- their death rate is tiny, although ANY deaths are unfortunate.    The point you've been REFUTED on was your claim that your POSTED source said NO kids were " GETTING SERIOUSLY ILL" (your words.)  Reputable sources around the world have acknowledged that a low rate of infection of kids doesn't mean NO kids are seriously ill of Covid-  and that's prompted rushes to vaccinate- to flatten new waves of infection, small though those waves are.  Some kids end up in ICU's around the world over Covid-  because they're getting seriously ill.   I'm glad they're getting treatment and that's keeping their death numbers down.

 

Allan:

"You then went on to post that " the few news readers that gave lip service to covid being a gray area were the first to rush out and get vaxxed."
Joe Rogan is one that didn't that springs to mind so did you mean virtually all or absolutely all of the few ??:)"

 

WordWolf responds:

For the benefit of anyone actually reading my posts, here's what I wrote:

"Personally, I find it interesting that the few TV news personalities in the US who ever claim there's any gray area here were all among the first people to run and get their vaccinations.  Anyone

on TV news as a staffer has gotten at least 2 shots, including anyone who gives lip service to the idea that the vaccinations are useless/harmful/whatever."

Now, Joe Rogan is a comedian and a podcaster. 

The difference between being "on TV news as a staffer" or a "TV news personality in the US" and some podcaster should be OBVIOUS.  However, I'll spell it out for those struggling with English. 

See, in the US, there's television. Some of the television is news programs.  There's a studio, and serious news gets discussed.  People show up in suits and begin reading "Our top story tonight is..." and so on.  To be a "staffer" on TV news is to work on the staff of one or more television news programs.  To be a "TV news personality" is to be a regular person featured ON television news programs.

As for podcasters, anybody could make a podcast from their living room. 

 

Only someone who can't tell the difference between sourced, credible news and podcasts would confuse one for the other- and that says a lot about someone.

Oh, and Joe Rogan previously being a UFC fight commentator" doesn't make him a "TV NEWS personality", either.  That's not "TV NEWS."

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Especially when my ID is the least guarded secret on GSC.

Then again, using snippets of information to prop up an unfounded conspiracy theory when the facts that disprove that theory are readily available but ignored... isn't that the definition of his contribution to this thread?

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11 minutes ago, modcat5 said:

. . . 

Then again, using snippets of information to prop up an unfounded conspiracy theory when the facts that disprove that theory are readily available but ignored... isn't that the definition of his contribution to this thread?

Which means the reason stated isn't the reason . . . analogous to the behavior of the followers of TWI . . . and a reason to unpack why

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9 hours ago, Twinky said:

Not all "underlying health conditions" are obvious.  Obesity, sure, but other things?  Diabetes, maybe.  Other things?  Perhaps not; the "underlying condition" may only be discovered after the child has begun to suffer the serious illness.

It appears only one child <16 has died in England in the first three months of 2020 - don't know about Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales.  Child mortality in England during the COVID-19 pandemic | Archives of Disease in Childhood (bmj.com)

That doesn't count serious illness.  I know several kids of that age or younger who have been quite poorly.

 

I think it much better to concentrate on the bigger picture.  Where there are high vaccination uptake rates - the UK, some US states, elsewhere in Europe - deaths and serious illness have gone down markedly.  Where there are low uptake rates, deaths and serious illnesses are rising.

 

Allan, you said you've had covid TWICE.  That should prove to you that having covid DOESN'T confer sufficient immunity.  Glad it's not seriously affected you; maybe a third time will.  (Remind me: what did U*u die of?  Covid complications, was it? And he was a pretty fit chap.) 

You should be thankful that you live in a country that has a high uptake of vaccination (so that should protect you quite a lot from actually getting the illness, though not from the effects if you catch it again) and you have great medical facilities to help anyone who does get it and has serious problems.

And yes, it appears some covid complications may be very long-lasting, with permanent damage caused to some organs.  A life lived, a full life, but not necessarily quite the life the person wanted.  We don't know enough about that yet.

I know two people who have post-polio syndrome.  Retirement age, but not quite as they wished.  One has breathing difficulties, the other has damage to her leg, which looks as though it's been put together with all the joints the wrong way round and she walks with the most peculiar rolling gait.  She knows that's PPS.

He had underlying health issues with his lungs AND had been vaccinated. I had covid twice, first time was like a bad flu, second time round more like hay fever but hey, that could just be me with my haelthy God-given immune system.

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6 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Allan:

"WW - 'virtually no-one' 16 or under gets seriously ill or dies from covid is what I said NOT 'absolutely no-one' and what you subsequently posted per link backs that up ! "

WordWolf responds:

It's time to give up when the only way one can win a point is by making up things somebody never said, then making fun of them for saying it.    I ran down why kids aren't dying from Covid in the few cases that DO get it- their death rate is tiny, although ANY deaths are unfortunate.    The point you've been REFUTED on was your claim that your POSTED source said NO kids were " GETTING SERIOUSLY ILL" (your words.)  Reputable sources around the world have acknowledged that a low rate of infection of kids doesn't mean NO kids are seriously ill of Covid-  and that's prompted rushes to vaccinate- to flatten new waves of infection, small though those waves are.  Some kids end up in ICU's around the world over Covid-  because they're getting seriously ill.   I'm glad they're getting treatment and that's keeping their death numbers down.

 

Allan:

"You then went on to post that " the few news readers that gave lip service to covid being a gray area were the first to rush out and get vaxxed."
Joe Rogan is one that didn't that springs to mind so did you mean virtually all or absolutely all of the few ??:)"

 

WordWolf responds:

For the benefit of anyone actually reading my posts, here's what I wrote:

"Personally, I find it interesting that the few TV news personalities in the US who ever claim there's any gray area here were all among the first people to run and get their vaccinations.  Anyone

on TV news as a staffer has gotten at least 2 shots, including anyone who gives lip service to the idea that the vaccinations are useless/harmful/whatever."

Now, Joe Rogan is a comedian and a podcaster. 

The difference between being "on TV news as a staffer" or a "TV news personality in the US" and some podcaster should be OBVIOUS.  However, I'll spell it out for those struggling with English. 

See, in the US, there's television. Some of the television is news programs.  There's a studio, and serious news gets discussed.  People show up in suits and begin reading "Our top story tonight is..." and so on.  To be a "staffer" on TV news is to work on the staff of one or more television news programs.  To be a "TV news personality" is to be a regular person featured ON television news programs.

As for podcasters, anybody could make a podcast from their living room. 

 

Only someone who can't tell the difference between sourced, credible news and podcasts would confuse one for the other- and that says a lot about someone.

Oh, and Joe Rogan previously being a UFC fight commentator" doesn't make him a "TV NEWS personality", either.  That's not "TV NEWS."

Again, I said 'virtually' no-one...keep it honest man !! If you drop a word, add a word...well you know the rest lol

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16 hours ago, modcat5 said:

The article Allan cited to prove NIH was funding "risky virus research" at Wuhan SPECIFICALLY SAYS COVID 19 was not a result of that research. When I repeated that, he said my assertion, TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM THE ARTICLE HE POSTED, "beggars belief."

Of course we know my comment is valid and not BS because if it were BS, Allan would have embraced it and spread it halfway around the world by now.

COVID misinformation and distortion is prolonging the pandemic. We will not permit the spread of misinformation on this site. Stop misrepresenting the research. Stop promoting agenda-driven political findings disguised as medical research.

Thank you.

Okaayyy, so the article I posted WITH the headline "NIH admits funding gain of function research at Wuhan lab"...Modcat does not believe the covid was a result of that gain of function ?? Go figure !! GS forum appears to be a lurking place of, um, how do I get around the 'no political' stance with mods ready to pull the trigger with fingers hovering over the 'delete' button...shall we say a 'lurking place of 'Brandon' admin worshippers' LMFAO

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2 minutes ago, Allan said:

Okaayyy, so the article I posted WITH the headline "NIH admits funding gain of function research at Wuhan lab"...Modcat does not believe the covid was a result of that gain of function ?? Go figure !! GS forum appears to be a lurking place of, um, how do I get around the 'no political' stance with mods ready to pull the trigger with fingers hovering over the 'delete' button...shall we say a 'lurking place of 'Brandon' admin worshippers' LMFAO

Here it is again...Modcat denies it and Waysider says it's false ??...no point posting articles then is it if only articles posted by WW and modcat are true and everyone elses is 'false' ??

In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan | Vanity Fair

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Just now, Allan said:

Here it is again...Modcat denies it and Waysider says it's false ??...no point posting articles then is it if only articles posted by WW and modcat are true and everyone elses is 'false' ??

In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan | Vanity Fair

could you explain Modcat WHY you do not believe the covid came from the Wuhan lab ??

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29 minutes ago, Allan said:

He had underlying health issues with his lungs AND had been vaccinated. I had covid twice, first time was like a bad flu, second time round more like hay fever but hey, that could just be me with my haelthy God-given immune system.

 

"God-Given immune system" - what does that mean?

With Thanksgiving approaching . . . we are reminded of other pandemics . . . in which one group of peoples "god-given" immune system was pitted against another people's "god-given" immune system.  

A lot of it has to do with the domestication of animals.   Eurasia/Africa had cattle, horses, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats maybe some others all mixing with people and sharing each others boogers.

The Americas had llamas and alpacas and the like.  Maybe Guinea pigs.  Not in North America.

 

Are we referencing "God-given" immune systems as a superior technology and innovation versus someone else's?  Or what?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

 

"God-Given immune system" - what does that mean?

With Thanksgiving approaching . . . we are reminded of other pandemics . . . in which one group of peoples "god-given" immune system was pitted against another people's "god-given" immune system.  

A lot of it has to do with the domestication of animals.   Eurasia/Africa had cattle, horses, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats maybe some others all mixing with people and sharing each others boogers.

The Americas had llamas and alpacas and the like.  Maybe Guinea pigs.  Not in North America.

 

Are we referencing "God-given" immune systems as a superior technology and innovation versus someone else's?  Or what?

 

 

No not really, I place it in the category of 'God-given freedom' celebrated by 'THANKSgiving day' :)

 

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48 minutes ago, Allan said:

No not really, I place it in the category of 'God-given freedom' celebrated by 'THANKSgiving day' :)

 

Does "god-given" distinguish this freedom from other types of freedom?  Can you be specific on what this freedom is?  Doesn't the vaccine increase freedom?

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1 hour ago, Allan said:

could you explain Modcat WHY you do not believe the covid came from the Wuhan lab ??

Have you READ the article you posted?

"the virus EcoHealth Alliance was researching could not have sparked the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, given the sizable genetic differences between the two."

So while the article engages in a lot of "hmmm" speculation, nothing in it even hints that the finding above has been contradicted. 

Meanwhile...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

An actual science journal, not to be confused with Vanity Fair. Rather than hand pick quotes, I'll just post the link and say enjoy.

And stop using GSC to spread misinformation.

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28 minutes ago, Raf said:

Have you READ the article you posted?

"the virus EcoHealth Alliance was researching could not have sparked the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, given the sizable genetic differences between the two."

So while the article engages in a lot of "hmmm" speculation, nothing in it even hints that the finding above has been contradicted. 

Meanwhile...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

An actual science journal, not to be confused with Vanity Fair. Rather than hand pick quotes, I'll just post the link and say enjoy.

And stop using GSC to spread misinformation.

 

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59 minutes ago, modcat5 said:

An extract from your article- But like at least one other signatory, he now has second thoughts about that plea, in part because it heightened political tensions. “I think it probably did more harm than good in terms of actually having relevant information flow out of China,” he says.

shame on you posting a 'political' article !! Then again, where our 'political allegiance' lies I believe, has somewhat of a bearing on what 'angle' we come from and what one is inclined to believe. Which I think is a reason 'politics' is not allowed to be discussed on here :)

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