Apropos of NOTHING. People die every day. If you had even the slightest critical thinking skill, you'd recognize that has nothing to do with anything on this discussion thread. NO connection was made to anything related herein.
Apropos of NOTHING. People die every day. If you had even the slightest critical thinking skill, you'd recognize that has nothing to do with anything on this discussion thread. NO connection was made to anything related herein.
Oh, this isn't a thread about 'covid' ?? okaaayyyy...btw, when you up for your booster ? (third shot ?)
Oh, this isn't a thread about 'covid' ?? okaaayyyy...btw, when you up for your booster ? (third shot ?)
You didn't connect that doctor's death to covid. Just that he encouraged people to get vaxxed. That's not a connection to his passing. It's quite lame that you don't even recognize the lack of relevance.
Thanks for that link – and great stuff in just the first two paragraphs: “New research in Psychological Science provides evidence that belief updating is proportional to the magnitude of prediction error. In other words, people are more likely to update their beliefs after learning that there is a large gap between what they (falsely) thought was true and what is in fact true, but are relatively less likely to update their beliefs when the gap is small. The findings suggest that the element of surprise could play a role in reducing the spread of misinformation.
“Designing and testing belief change strategies is a research direction I became interested in after several large-scale misinformation campaigns were deployed around the world, with long-term disastrous consequences. In our work, my collaborators and I are looking for tools policy makers can use to fight misinformation by changing false beliefs in vulnerable communities,” explained Madalina Vlasceanu, a postdoctoral research fellow at New York University and the corresponding author of the new study.”
There’s two critical issues that the above article does NOT address:
1. What if there is NOT outstanding or obvious big differences between what one thinks and what is actually true? That would probably require a discipline of nuanced thinking - where one has to exercise extreme care to recognize and understand the finer points of distinction and to be more detail-oriented in their observations. What comes to mind is how some folks were impressed by Bullinger/wierwille’s teaching of the 4 crucified with Jesus - falling for the piecemeal narrative concocted out of the 4 Gospels and the mangling of some Greek words. Whereas a person more familiar with the Bible than your typical PFAL student and having a concern for and an appreciation of the integrity of ancient literature would probably realize wierwille’s sleight of hand deception.
2. On the other hand, what if there are obvious big differences - but they are not perceived as obvious big differences by the person - that is perhaps a sign of cult-mentality. To ask the question another way - why would a cult-follower refuse to change their belief about something? What is/are the reason(s) that a person refuses to resolve a cognitive dissonance? Especially if it could cause more problems – for example, it leads the person to justify or rationalize behaviors that could be harmful to themselves and/or others.
And if – for whatever reason - a person doesn’t want to fix the cognitive dissonance – what would be the consequences? Would they feel miserable? Frustrated? How would they go about fixing THAT ? If one couldn’t fix it – maybe there’s something to soothe the pain…I thought of the expression “misery loves company” – which may explain in part why some diehard cult-followers are fervent recruiters.
“Misery loves company because in a profound state of feeling alone we pull in anyone who gets caught in our vortex. We do not wish to leave each other to pain but also we are often not sure how to sooth it either. One sure way is to feel it with them. resonate with them. Now two people are clearing out the tissue box. People are beautiful. We do care so much for each other when we allow ourselves to. Beautiful… but completely toxic and unhealthy.
To say misery loves company is a poetic little reminder that to break this tide you can’t go with the flow. We have to actively hurl a neutralizing component as salve. I don’t say positivity because if you’ve ever been miserable positivity can feel condescending and unattainable. We must defy the thoughts, we must learn to listen with compassion to others without needing to bring their misery home. They do not need our alliance they need our compassion.”
The article How Cults Like QAnon Respond to Embarrassing Failures gets into that 'misery loves company' idea too:
“…The first person I spoke with was Laurence Moore, a retired Cornell University history professor who’s the author or co-author of five books on American religion including Religious Outsiders and the Making of Americans. (Disclosure: He was my faculty adviser.) Moore harked back to “the Great Disappointment” of Oct. 22, 1844, when the world disappointingly didn’t end, contrary to the confident prediction of the Baptist preacher William Miller.
“When something doesn’t happen on the original schedule, a variety of things can happen,” Moore said. “One of them, some will just drop out. Others will be more fervent in their belief, change the date it’s going to happen, or change the script.” Some followers of Miller regrouped to form what became the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
One surprising effect of a bad prediction, said Moore, is that those who stick around become even more active in proselytizing, because it helps ease the cognitive dissonance they feel: that queasy sense that one’s understanding of the world doesn’t match what one is seeing and hearing. “To the degree they can convince other people that they’re right,” they will be surrounded by people who see the world the way they see it, and the cognitive dissonance they feel will ease, he said.
The cognitive dissonance theory appeared first in a 1956 book about a cult in Chicago that believed they would be rescued by a flying saucer before a great flood in 1954, and the psychological coping mechanisms the followers used when the saucer and flood failed to materialize. The book, When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group That Predicted the Destruction of the World, is by Leon Festinger, Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schachter.
The zaniness of cults’ beliefs is a short-term asset but a long-term liability. In the short term the embrace of far-fetched assertions binds the followers together against a skeptical outside world. Eventually, though, the zaniness shatters the cult when the core beliefs are seen to be wrong. Said Moore: “They change the prediction with more particulars that are just as subject to disconformation. You can only go with this so many times.”
Rachel Bernstein is a marriage and family therapist in Los Angeles who’s developed a specialty in counseling cult members. She has a weekly podcast called IndoctriNation. When a cult’s prediction doesn’t pan out, she said, followers fall into one of three D’s: the determined, the disillusioned, and the despondent.
The determined are already concocting theories…The middle group, the disillusioned, are “waiting and hoping,” she said. “Then you have the people who are despondent. They had a dopamine rush. They didn’t get to taper slowly off their drug. Those are the people who fell into tears. They felt left behind, and all their self-sacrifice was for naught, and that was devastating.”
Said Bernstein: “What’s very true about a lot of these groups is they have a militaristic bent. They trigger an aggressive part of their nature. It’s nearly impossible to have a conversation with them that feels like a conversation. They jump up out of their chairs. They’re so worked up into a frenzy and so angry and frustrated that I don’t believe [what they’re saying], even though I haven’t said anything yet.”
I looked at Allan's link and several others that dealt with the unfortunate passing of Dr. Lutchmedial. Nowhere in the article or any of the many others was a cause of death listed. It's both disingenuous and misleading to suggest the reader should draw a conclusion linking his death to the Covid vaccine. But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion, something that is expressly in violation of GSC rules. For some of us, this has been a discussion. For Allan, it's become a soapbox to rail against those who may not conform to his ill-informed, preconceived ideas. If you choose to interact with him, be advised, he does not respond to logical thought or evidence with which he disagrees.
"I'm sorry, all our operators are busy at the moment. Please enjoy this musical interlude while you wait."
Thanks ! I love stuff like this – it’s in English – but the accent and different phraseology, words makes me want to listen more intently – had to Google lyrics and meaning to better understand it – “it’s a dying Australian stockman instructs his friends to take care of his affairs when he is gone.”
Accents are so interesting…Tonto and I have been watching Ted Lasso …funny show…and half the time we can’t understand what most of the characters are saying – we could enable closed caption, I guess – but what’s the fun and mystery in that?
I looked at Allan's link and several others that dealt with the unfortunate passing of Dr. Lutchmedial. Nowhere in the article or any of the many others was a cause of death listed. It's both disingenuous and misleading to suggest the reader should draw a conclusion linking his death to the Covid vaccine. But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion, something that is expressly in violation of GSC rules. For some of us, this has been a discussion. For Allan, it's become a soapbox to rail against those who may not conform to his ill-informed, preconceived ideas. If you choose to interact with him, be advised, he does not respond to logical thought or evidence with which he disagrees.
Waysider said "But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion"
Stop being hysterical, I mentioned 'T' perhaps once ? Why didn't you whinge and whine when Rocky mentioned high covid rates in T supporter States ?....aah, we know why, don't we
I hadn't really thought of that. I don't speak ASL, myself, though I have known several people who do. I do know that when you express emotion or thought, it's important to place your sign in the proper location. For example, if you told someone "I love you.", that sign would emanate from the center of your chest. At least, that's my understanding of it. It gives me a whole new perspective on just how skilled those translators you see on press conferences and such need to be.
I looked at Allan's link and several others that dealt with the unfortunate passing of Dr. Lutchmedial. Nowhere in the article or any of the many others was a cause of death listed. It's both disingenuous and misleading to suggest the reader should draw a conclusion linking his death to the Covid vaccine. But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion, something that is expressly in violation of GSC rules. For some of us, this has been a discussion. For Allan, it's become a soapbox to rail against those who may not conform to his ill-informed, preconceived ideas. If you choose to interact with him, be advised, he does not respond to logical thought or evidence with which he disagrees.
Waysider, you nailed the essence of the last dozen or so pages of this thread. Absolute Bull's Eye!
Why didn't you whinge and whine when Rocky mentioned high covid rates in T supporter States ?
High Covid rates in T supporter states is a statistical fact, not an opinion or speculation. You can clearly see it if you look at current state by state data.
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Bolshevik
This mRNA technology sounds like it's going to open the door to many new solutions, so that's fascinating. However, joining a cult like The Way is like a type of addiction. There is no vaccine e
Bolshevik
Nearly 7 out of 10 Americans have at least one dose. Nearly 6 out of 10 are fully vaccinated. Boosters are available for certain groups but not everyone at this time. Children 5 - 11 can be
Twinky
Going for my booster jab tomorrow. Yes, I believe God to keep me safe - and to keep others safe. I believe I have a great natural immune system, to which loads of fresh fruit and veg, exercise,
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Rocky
And just as importantly, you're not participating in this thread in any constructive manner.
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Rocky
Apropos of NOTHING. People die every day. If you had even the slightest critical thinking skill, you'd recognize that has nothing to do with anything on this discussion thread. NO connection was made to anything related herein.
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Allan
Oh, this isn't a thread about 'covid' ?? okaaayyyy...btw, when you up for your booster ? (third shot ?)
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WordWolf
He said, even while the GSC allowed him to disagree and still post. The GSC forum is not to be compared with twi- and you just proved THAT.
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Allan
The 'threat' from GiT was very real and intended to intimidate...hmmnnn, makes their avatar spiel about twi laughable.
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Bolshevik
A world . . . Run by mice . . .
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Rocky
Paranoid much?
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Rocky
You didn't connect that doctor's death to covid. Just that he encouraged people to get vaxxed. That's not a connection to his passing. It's quite lame that you don't even recognize the lack of relevance.
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T-Bone
Thanks for that link – and great stuff in just the first two paragraphs:
“New research in Psychological Science provides evidence that belief updating is proportional to the magnitude of prediction error. In other words, people are more likely to update their beliefs after learning that there is a large gap between what they (falsely) thought was true and what is in fact true, but are relatively less likely to update their beliefs when the gap is small. The findings suggest that the element of surprise could play a role in reducing the spread of misinformation.
“Designing and testing belief change strategies is a research direction I became interested in after several large-scale misinformation campaigns were deployed around the world, with long-term disastrous consequences. In our work, my collaborators and I are looking for tools policy makers can use to fight misinformation by changing false beliefs in vulnerable communities,” explained Madalina Vlasceanu, a postdoctoral research fellow at New York University and the corresponding author of the new study.”
There’s two critical issues that the above article does NOT address:
1. What if there is NOT outstanding or obvious big differences between what one thinks and what is actually true? That would probably require a discipline of nuanced thinking - where one has to exercise extreme care to recognize and understand the finer points of distinction and to be more detail-oriented in their observations. What comes to mind is how some folks were impressed by Bullinger/wierwille’s teaching of the 4 crucified with Jesus - falling for the piecemeal narrative concocted out of the 4 Gospels and the mangling of some Greek words. Whereas a person more familiar with the Bible than your typical PFAL student and having a concern for and an appreciation of the integrity of ancient literature would probably realize wierwille’s sleight of hand deception.
2. On the other hand, what if there are obvious big differences - but they are not perceived as obvious big differences by the person - that is perhaps a sign of cult-mentality. To ask the question another way - why would a cult-follower refuse to change their belief about something? What is/are the reason(s) that a person refuses to resolve a cognitive dissonance? Especially if it could cause more problems – for example, it leads the person to justify or rationalize behaviors that could be harmful to themselves and/or others.
And if – for whatever reason - a person doesn’t want to fix the cognitive dissonance – what would be the consequences? Would they feel miserable? Frustrated? How would they go about fixing THAT ? If one couldn’t fix it – maybe there’s something to soothe the pain…I thought of the expression “misery loves company” – which may explain in part why some diehard cult-followers are fervent recruiters.
“Misery loves company because in a profound state of feeling alone we pull in anyone who gets caught in our vortex. We do not wish to leave each other to pain but also we are often not sure how to sooth it either. One sure way is to feel it with them. resonate with them. Now two people are clearing out the tissue box. People are beautiful. We do care so much for each other when we allow ourselves to. Beautiful… but completely toxic and unhealthy.
To say misery loves company is a poetic little reminder that to break this tide you can’t go with the flow. We have to actively hurl a neutralizing component as salve. I don’t say positivity because if you’ve ever been miserable positivity can feel condescending and unattainable. We must defy the thoughts, we must learn to listen with compassion to others without needing to bring their misery home. They do not need our alliance they need our compassion.”
from: Quora: What does misery loves company mean?
The article How Cults Like QAnon Respond to Embarrassing Failures gets into that 'misery loves company' idea too:
“…The first person I spoke with was Laurence Moore, a retired Cornell University history professor who’s the author or co-author of five books on American religion including Religious Outsiders and the Making of Americans. (Disclosure: He was my faculty adviser.) Moore harked back to “the Great Disappointment” of Oct. 22, 1844, when the world disappointingly didn’t end, contrary to the confident prediction of the Baptist preacher William Miller.
“When something doesn’t happen on the original schedule, a variety of things can happen,” Moore said. “One of them, some will just drop out. Others will be more fervent in their belief, change the date it’s going to happen, or change the script.” Some followers of Miller regrouped to form what became the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
One surprising effect of a bad prediction, said Moore, is that those who stick around become even more active in proselytizing, because it helps ease the cognitive dissonance they feel: that queasy sense that one’s understanding of the world doesn’t match what one is seeing and hearing. “To the degree they can convince other people that they’re right,” they will be surrounded by people who see the world the way they see it, and the cognitive dissonance they feel will ease, he said.
The cognitive dissonance theory appeared first in a 1956 book about a cult in Chicago that believed they would be rescued by a flying saucer before a great flood in 1954, and the psychological coping mechanisms the followers used when the saucer and flood failed to materialize. The book, When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group That Predicted the Destruction of the World, is by Leon Festinger, Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schachter.
The zaniness of cults’ beliefs is a short-term asset but a long-term liability. In the short term the embrace of far-fetched assertions binds the followers together against a skeptical outside world. Eventually, though, the zaniness shatters the cult when the core beliefs are seen to be wrong. Said Moore: “They change the prediction with more particulars that are just as subject to disconformation. You can only go with this so many times.”
Rachel Bernstein is a marriage and family therapist in Los Angeles who’s developed a specialty in counseling cult members. She has a weekly podcast called IndoctriNation. When a cult’s prediction doesn’t pan out, she said, followers fall into one of three D’s: the determined, the disillusioned, and the despondent.
The determined are already concocting theories…The middle group, the disillusioned, are “waiting and hoping,” she said. “Then you have the people who are despondent. They had a dopamine rush. They didn’t get to taper slowly off their drug. Those are the people who fell into tears. They felt left behind, and all their self-sacrifice was for naught, and that was devastating.”
Said Bernstein: “What’s very true about a lot of these groups is they have a militaristic bent. They trigger an aggressive part of their nature. It’s nearly impossible to have a conversation with them that feels like a conversation. They jump up out of their chairs. They’re so worked up into a frenzy and so angry and frustrated that I don’t believe [what they’re saying], even though I haven’t said anything yet.”
Edited by T-Bone“They think they’re trying to save us,” Bernstein said. “They’re conspiratorial missionaries.”
from: Bloomberg: How cults like QAnon respond to embarrassing failures
typos and formatting
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Bolshevik
T-Bone I'm still thinking on the false dichotomy you pointed out earlier in this thread
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waysider
I looked at Allan's link and several others that dealt with the unfortunate passing of Dr. Lutchmedial. Nowhere in the article or any of the many others was a cause of death listed. It's both disingenuous and misleading to suggest the reader should draw a conclusion linking his death to the Covid vaccine. But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion, something that is expressly in violation of GSC rules. For some of us, this has been a discussion. For Allan, it's become a soapbox to rail against those who may not conform to his ill-informed, preconceived ideas. If you choose to interact with him, be advised, he does not respond to logical thought or evidence with which he disagrees.
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Bolshevik
My experience with cognitive dissonance is that your cognitive (points to his head) and your emotional (points to chest) are at odds.
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T-Bone
Thanks ! I love stuff like this – it’s in English – but the accent and different phraseology, words makes me want to listen more intently – had to Google lyrics and meaning to better understand it – “it’s a dying Australian stockman instructs his friends to take care of his affairs when he is gone.”
from: Wikipedia - Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport how sad
Accents are so interesting…Tonto and I have been watching Ted Lasso …funny show…and half the time we can’t understand what most of the characters are saying – we could enable closed caption, I guess – but what’s the fun and mystery in that?
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waysider
Completely off topic: The "pointing to a location" is a concept that is relevant to ASL.
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Bolshevik
A narcissist creates an addiction in their victim.
You mention pain, and dopamine.
I'm tempted to say the conditioning carrot and stick is all related.
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Bolshevik
Hope I didn't say something inappropriate . . .
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Allan
Believe me, anything at odds with Waysiders line of thinking or narrative is especially inappropriate to ...Waysider.
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Bolshevik
Shut up Allan
Or I'll post more Disney BS
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Allan
Waysider said " But that's what Allan did. In addition, he has continually gone out of his way to inject rightwing, U.S. politics into this discussion"
Stop being hysterical, I mentioned 'T' perhaps once ? Why didn't you whinge and whine when Rocky mentioned high covid rates in T supporter States ?....aah, we know why, don't we
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Bolshevik
LINK
T-Bone I think this relates. It includes mice.
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Allan
you must have produced AOS back in the days with your terrific visual imagery lol
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waysider
I hadn't really thought of that. I don't speak ASL, myself, though I have known several people who do. I do know that when you express emotion or thought, it's important to place your sign in the proper location. For example, if you told someone "I love you.", that sign would emanate from the center of your chest. At least, that's my understanding of it. It gives me a whole new perspective on just how skilled those translators you see on press conferences and such need to be.
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Rocky
Waysider, you nailed the essence of the last dozen or so pages of this thread. Absolute Bull's Eye!
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waysider
High Covid rates in T supporter states is a statistical fact, not an opinion or speculation. You can clearly see it if you look at current state by state data.
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