quote: Why do you think your comments are necessary?
Cause he's full of self righteous vomit. A fountain with an unlimited supply. Same as it ever was.
quote: Not without someone like you providing feedback to say such a thing. Has it not ever occurred to you that your interactions with bait and hook trolls like Mike and JohnIam might be counterproductive?
I'm just posting my opinion. I got a full plate. No time to "bait and hook".
Not without someone like you providing feedback to say such a thing. Has it not ever occurred to you that your interactions with bait and hook trolls like Mike and JohnIam might be counterproductive?
Theres the other side of mike and johniam that people assume what they post here is what GSC is all about. If their pro-twi pro-wierwille posts go unanswered the GSC then looks like a pro-twi site. So, yeah, somebody needs to refute their posts as needed.
Theres the other side of mike and johniam that people assume what they post here is what GSC is all about. If their pro-twi pro-wierwille posts go unanswered the GSC then looks like a pro-twi site. So, yeah, somebody needs to refute their posts as needed.
This is a real risk to consider. When I first came to GSC ten years ago, I thought it was pro TWI because of posters like Mike and Johniam and Jeaniam and others. It was a huge turn off and kept me away for years.
This is a real risk to consider. When I first came to GSC ten years ago, I thought it was pro TWI because of posters like Mike and Johniam and Jeaniam and others. It was a huge turn off and kept me away for years.
Theres the other side of mike and johniam that people assume what they post here is what GSC is all about. If their pro-twi pro-wierwille posts go unanswered the GSC then looks like a pro-twi site. So, yeah, somebody needs to refute their posts as needed.
1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:
This is a real risk to consider. When I first came to GSC ten years ago, I thought it was pro TWI because of posters like Mike and Johniam and Jeaniam and others. It was a huge turn off and kept me away for years.
There are so many aspects of Grease SpotCafé that are almost undefinable.
I Googled the definition of "group" and one hit was this:
A Group is basically an assemblage of people. It can be understood as a collection of individuals (two or more), who come together and interact with each other, so as to achieve the objectives of the organization.
The stated mission of Grease Spot Café is to tell the other side of the story of The Way International.
Grease Spotters come together and interact with each other to achieve thatobjective!
Each Grease Spotter’s input represents a unique story of their experiences and personal viewpoint in The Way International. I like that it’s unfiltered and uncensored – and that there’s rules/moderators to put the kibosh on troll-tactics to keep their intended mayhem down to a minimum. The fact that Grease Spot has some folks who are pro-PFAL and/or are big wierwille fans are allowed to air their views which sometimes sparks heated discussions and/or the Socratic method is a testimony to Grease Spot being the antithesis of the deceit and control of The Way International.
quote: Why do you think your comments are necessary?
Cause he's full of self righteous vomit. A fountain with an unlimited supply. Same as it ever was.
quote: Not without someone like you providing feedback to say such a thing. Has it not ever occurred to you that your interactions with bait and hook trolls like Mike and JohnIam might be counterproductive?
I'm just posting my opinion. I got a full plate. No time to "bait and hook".
quote: Why do you think your comments are necessary?
Cause he's full of self righteous vomit. A fountain with an unlimited supply. Same as it ever was.
quote: Not without someone like you providing feedback to say such a thing. Has it not ever occurred to you that your interactions with bait and hook trolls like Mike and JohnIam might be counterproductive?
I'm just posting my opinion. I got a full plate. No time to "bait and hook".
When I clicked on the link I see 150 clips, including AoTS. Sure they say they are by Loy and yes I listened to 60s seconds of a couple of them and they are indeed him and current. But all of these clips are uploaded by Watson PA and then Watson PA gives them all 5 stars, calls him "the TEACHER" (not to be confused with "THE TEACHER"). Watson PA even gives the TEACHER'S email address of flysortie@gmail.com.
So is Watson PA actually Loy? Do we know anything? Does he have followers and this is just one of them? I just have so many questions. But one thing is clear, he speaks and teaches the exact same way so he clearly hasn't learned anything and just continues to be a con-artist. I will be sending a loving message to that email some day. That p.o.s. destroyed many of our lives and/or families lives. He still has my parents under his control (even if he isn't in control anymore), and yet he is still trying to phuc people over just so he can sate his ego.
On the remnant discussion, something I think is relevant:
I can't comment on Biblical significance or anything like that. But I will tell you LCM is practiced at constant rationalization. When he left / was kicked out / whatever you want to call it, I watched him rationalize his situation over and over and over again. It made me look at what he taught differently: if he has this mindset of rationalization, how much of what he taught that he thought was Godly really came from his using rationalization to make himself feel better?
The BIG one (for me) is abortion: if he needed women to get abortions to hide his infidelity, how could he make it Godly? By rationalizing it Biblically. Adultery? When it's printed that way in the King James, it should be more "accurately" translated "idolatry." It goes on and on. How much of his doctrine is more about his lack of mental health than it is about genuine inspiration? My guess is: a LOT.
So, as to the remnant, it's my thought that it's just another rationalization for his behavior (marking and avoiding so many people) and for the situation (people leaving TWI in droves in the late 80s). It's how he dealt with the cognitive dissonance and the pain of so many people leaving.
Thoughts?
I believe the consent to abortion was rationalized by TWI teaching us that it was ok unless the baby was able to live outside of the mother's womb by itself; if it could, then it was considered killing a human being. (Still erroneous but at least they had SOME awareness that at some point in the pregnancy, tearing another human being limb from limb was sinfully wrong.) It took me several years away from TWI and about a year with the Catholic Church to truly repent from that belief. As to the remnant, and people leaving in droves and others being M&A, I thought at the time it had to be done that way because many were thinking evil and constantly bad-mouthing, being suspicious of the Trustees and thus had to be expelled. Not condoning it, but I believe any religious group would have done the same thing. Of course it would have been much better had the rape and adultery been admitted to and publicly addressed as completely sinful but that likely would have bankrupted them.
When I clicked on the link I see 150 clips, including AoTS. Sure they say they are by Loy and yes I listened to 60s seconds of a couple of them and they are indeed him and current. But all of these clips are uploaded by Watson PA and then Watson PA gives them all 5 stars, calls him "the TEACHER" (not to be confused with "THE TEACHER"). Watson PA even gives the TEACHER'S email address of flysortie@gmail.com.
So is Watson PA actually Loy? Do we know anything? Does he have followers and this is just one of them? I just have so many questions. But one thing is clear, he speaks and teaches the exact same way so he clearly hasn't learned anything and just continues to be a con-artist. I will be sending a loving message to that email some day. That p.o.s. destroyed many of our lives and/or families lives. He still has my parents under his control (even if he isn't in control anymore), and yet he is still trying to phuc people over just so he can sate his ego.
He's also on YouTube. Here is one of his postings:
He's also on YouTube. Here is one of his postings:
In listening to Craig Martindale’s Youtube Christian teaching, I see this as above average compared to other teachings by other people. For example, he does not believe in the most errant teaching today and in other years that people do not really die instead most people go to hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven to be with God. Instead like Victor Wierwille he believes in death and then two future resurrections of the dead. The first for followers of Jesus Christ or those in Christ, then the second as written in Revelation 20:11-15, which I view as a resurrection of judgement for people who were not followers of Jesus Christ in their lives. I now see that some or perhaps even most of the people will be judged favorably and be written in the book of life.
One doctrine that I do not agree with and never agreed with even while I was with the Way Ministry. I never believed that people could be born of the seed of the devil and have the devil’s spiritual seed always in them. Which verses do they think shows this?
Doing some research with the help of my very good biblical study software program. There is only one verse in the bible that has the phrase "father the devil". It is John 8:44.
In listening to Craig Martindale’s Youtube Christian teaching, I see this as above average compared to other teachings by other people. For example, he does not believe in the most errant teaching today and in other years that people do not really die instead most people go to hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven to be with God. Instead like Victor Wierwille he believes in death and then two future resurrections of the dead. The first for followers of Jesus Christ or those in Christ, then the second as written in Revelation 20:11-15, which I view as a resurrection of judgement for people who were not followers of Jesus Christ in their lives. I now see that some or perhaps even most of the people will be judged favorably and be written in the book of life.
One doctrine that I do not agree with and never agreed with even while I was with the Way Ministry. I never believed that people could be born of the seed of the devil and have the devil’s spiritual seed always in them. Which verses do they think shows this?
I think it was from PFAL and subsequent Scripture Buildup including (1) scripture from Genesis on the seed of the serpent; (2) scripture from the gospels on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; (3) scripture from the epistles on the sin unto death.
I think it was from PFAL and subsequent Scripture Buildup including (1) scripture from Genesis on the seed of the serpent; (2) scripture from the gospels on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; (3) scripture from the epistles on the sin unto death.
Regarding what I see as scripturally errant that the devil has the ability to have people born of the seed of the devil, like the heavenly Father God has the ability to have followers of Jesus Christ to be born of the Holy Spirit with what can be called a new birth. Yes, the devil with demons can possess people when they are deceived enough. However, when they see God’s love and Jesus Christ in a favorable way instead of being deceived with steal, kill and destroy or turn crazy. They could change. People can change like the Apostle Paul changed from being a hateful Pharisee to being the best teacher of the New Testament. The demons were not created through Satan or the devil. Instead they were created by God as angels with them changing while wanting authority even above God, the creator. This is obviously a bad attitude.
Using my very good biblical study software program there is no verse in the book of Genesis at least in the New King James Version that has the word serpent in the same verse as the word seed. There is no phrase in any version of the bible at least that I have the time to research that has the phrase “seed of the serpent”. Perhaps the only way TWI could see this is if they did their own biblical version. Regarding the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Mathew chapter 12, Jesus was speaking to hateful Pharisees that opposed Jesus Christ. The Pharisees instead of being service oriented like Jesus Christ was and is, instead they wanted authority and rulership in their religion. When Jesus Christ was helpful while healing people and even casting out a demon from a man that was blind and mute without the ability to see and speak. The Pharisees accused Jesus Christ of casting out a demon with Beelzebub who the Pharisees religiously saw as the chief ruler of the demons. Jesus Christ corrected their stupid belief while explaining to the Pharisees that the demons would only be divided or against the devil or demons if they did this, while being in opposition to themselves. Then Jesus Christ forgave them for opposing himself, Jesus Christ. However, opposing the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven because to have eternal life in the future, humanity needs a new spiritual body instead of only a physical body with its decay while our physical bodiesarenot eternal.
Regarding what I see as scripturally errant that the devil has the ability to have people born of the seed of the devil, like the heavenly Father God has the ability to have followers of Jesus Christ to be born of the Holy Spirit with what can be called a new birth. Yes, the devil with demons can possess people when they are deceived enough. However, when they see God’s love and Jesus Christ in a favorable way instead of being deceived with steal, kill and destroy or turn crazy. They could change. People can change like the Apostle Paul changed from being a hateful Pharisee to being the best teacher of the New Testament. The demons were not created through Satan or the devil. Instead they were created by God as angels with them changing while wanting authority even above God, the creator. This is obviously a bad attitude.
Using my very good biblical study software program there is no verse in the book of Genesis at least in the New King James Version that has the word serpent in the same verse as the word seed. There is no phrase in any version of the bible at least that I have the time to research that has the phrase “seed of the serpent”. Perhaps the only way TWI could see this is if they did their own biblical version. Regarding the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Mathew chapter 12, Jesus was speaking to hateful Pharisees that opposed Jesus Christ. The Pharisees instead of being service oriented like Jesus Christ was and is, instead they wanted authority and rulership in their religion. When Jesus Christ was helpful while healing people and even casting out a demon from a man that was blind and mute without the ability to see and speak. The Pharisees accused Jesus Christ of casting out a demon with Beelzebub who the Pharisees religiously saw as the chief ruler of the demons. Jesus Christ corrected their stupid belief while explaining to the Pharisees that the demons would only be divided or against the devil or demons if they did this, while being in opposition to themselves. Then Jesus Christ forgave them for opposing himself, Jesus Christ. However, opposing the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven because to have eternal life in the future, humanity needs a new spiritual body instead of only a physical body with its decay while our physical bodiesarenot eternal.
Agree with 99% what you wrote -- there appears to be no direct reference so it's a TWI assumption based on scripture building. One observation using PFAL: God was speaking to the serpent when He said "thy seed" and there were no chapters or verses in the original.
Agree with 99% what you wrote -- there appears to be no direct reference so it's a TWI assumption based on scripture building. One observation using PFAL: God was speaking to the serpent when He said "thy seed" and there were no chapters or verses in the original.
Interesting the words, “thy seed” as it relates to the serpent or devil. With the King James Version, this is Genesis 3:15.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (KJV)
The word “enmity” in Genesis 3:15 shows the opposite of the devil being able to get people born of the devil or the seed of the serpent. The definition of “enmity” is being actively opposed or hostile. Since I do not have the time to write a commentary on Genesis 3:15, I will copy a commentary using my very good biblical study software program.
Quote
[I will put enmity between thee and the woman] This has been generally supposed to apply to a certain enmity subsisting between men and serpents, but this is rather a fancy than a reality. It is yet to be discovered that the serpentine race have any peculiar enmity against mankind, nor is there any proof that men hate serpents more than they do other noxious animals. Men have much more enmity to the common rat and magpie than they have to all the serpents in the land, because the former destroy the grain, etc., and serpents in general, far from seeking to do men mischief, flee his approach, and generally avoid his dwelling. If, however, we take the word naachaash to mean any of the simia or ape species, we find a more consistent meaning, as there is scarcely an animal in the universe so detested by most women as these are; and indeed men look on them as continual caricatures of themselves.
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T-Bone
Oh yeah – you nailed it Bolshevik! An alarming aspect of TWI-follower’s/big PFAL-fans’ fascination with demonology is the amount of control it affords cult-leaders. They elevate consequen
Twinky
Good lord, is that Craig? His vaunted golden hair has slipped down to his chin, and gone grey? Still got the scowl, though.
BecomingMe
Hi, friends! Sorry I'm late to the party. I step in and out of cult world, because it's just too heavy sometimes. I'm Craig's oldest kid and wanted to jump on this thread to help out if I can...
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Rocky
Cool. It's probably safer to not assume you know what is going on inside my head.
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T-Bone
“safer” - a curious word to use …does that mean I am protected from your lecturing during the game?
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Rocky
That depends. If you continue to respond by telling me what (you assume) I'm thinking, I might lecture more.
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T-Bone
that's exciting ! I always wanted to be involved in a lecture circuit - even if I'm just helping with refreshments.
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johniam
quote: Why do you think your comments are necessary?
Cause he's full of self righteous vomit. A fountain with an unlimited supply. Same as it ever was.
quote: Not without someone like you providing feedback to say such a thing. Has it not ever occurred to you that your interactions with bait and hook trolls like Mike and JohnIam might be counterproductive?
I'm just posting my opinion. I got a full plate. No time to "bait and hook".
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chockfull
LMFAO
Me too Rocky me too!
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OldSkool
Theres the other side of mike and johniam that people assume what they post here is what GSC is all about. If their pro-twi pro-wierwille posts go unanswered the GSC then looks like a pro-twi site. So, yeah, somebody needs to refute their posts as needed.
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Nathan_Jr
This is a real risk to consider. When I first came to GSC ten years ago, I thought it was pro TWI because of posters like Mike and Johniam and Jeaniam and others. It was a huge turn off and kept me away for years.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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OldSkool
And now we know WHY they do what they do.
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T-Bone
There are so many aspects of Grease Spot Café that are almost undefinable.
I Googled the definition of "group" and one hit was this:
A Group is basically an assemblage of people. It can be understood as a collection of individuals (two or more), who come together and interact with each other, so as to achieve the objectives of the organization.
From: What is a Group? definition, characteristics, types and reasons for group formation - Business Jargons
The stated mission of Grease Spot Café is to tell the other side of the story of The Way International.
Grease Spotters come together and interact with each other to achieve that objective!
Each Grease Spotter’s input represents a unique story of their experiences and personal viewpoint in The Way International. I like that it’s unfiltered and uncensored – and that there’s rules/moderators to put the kibosh on troll-tactics to keep their intended mayhem down to a minimum. The fact that Grease Spot has some folks who are pro-PFAL and/or are big wierwille fans are allowed to air their views which sometimes sparks heated discussions and/or the Socratic method is a testimony to Grease Spot being the antithesis of the deceit and control of The Way International.
Three cheers for Grease Spot Cafe
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Rocky
I accept your criticism with humility. Thank you.
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T-Bone
I agree with your opinion - guilty as charged
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Beguiled
I have queries about this lol.
When I clicked on the link I see 150 clips, including AoTS. Sure they say they are by Loy and yes I listened to 60s seconds of a couple of them and they are indeed him and current. But all of these clips are uploaded by Watson PA and then Watson PA gives them all 5 stars, calls him "the TEACHER" (not to be confused with "THE TEACHER"). Watson PA even gives the TEACHER'S email address of flysortie@gmail.com.
So is Watson PA actually Loy? Do we know anything? Does he have followers and this is just one of them? I just have so many questions. But one thing is clear, he speaks and teaches the exact same way so he clearly hasn't learned anything and just continues to be a con-artist. I will be sending a loving message to that email some day. That p.o.s. destroyed many of our lives and/or families lives. He still has my parents under his control (even if he isn't in control anymore), and yet he is still trying to phuc people over just so he can sate his ego.
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oldiesman
I believe the consent to abortion was rationalized by TWI teaching us that it was ok unless the baby was able to live outside of the mother's womb by itself; if it could, then it was considered killing a human being. (Still erroneous but at least they had SOME awareness that at some point in the pregnancy, tearing another human being limb from limb was sinfully wrong.) It took me several years away from TWI and about a year with the Catholic Church to truly repent from that belief. As to the remnant, and people leaving in droves and others being M&A, I thought at the time it had to be done that way because many were thinking evil and constantly bad-mouthing, being suspicious of the Trustees and thus had to be expelled. Not condoning it, but I believe any religious group would have done the same thing. Of course it would have been much better had the rape and adultery been admitted to and publicly addressed as completely sinful but that likely would have bankrupted them.
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oldiesman
He's also on YouTube. Here is one of his postings:
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Twinky
Good lord, is that Craig? His vaunted golden hair has slipped down to his chin, and gone grey? Still got the scowl, though.
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Mark Sanguinetti
In listening to Craig Martindale’s Youtube Christian teaching, I see this as above average compared to other teachings by other people. For example, he does not believe in the most errant teaching today and in other years that people do not really die instead most people go to hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven to be with God. Instead like Victor Wierwille he believes in death and then two future resurrections of the dead. The first for followers of Jesus Christ or those in Christ, then the second as written in Revelation 20:11-15, which I view as a resurrection of judgement for people who were not followers of Jesus Christ in their lives. I now see that some or perhaps even most of the people will be judged favorably and be written in the book of life.
One doctrine that I do not agree with and never agreed with even while I was with the Way Ministry. I never believed that people could be born of the seed of the devil and have the devil’s spiritual seed always in them. Which verses do they think shows this?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Doing some research with the help of my very good biblical study software program. There is only one verse in the bible that has the phrase "father the devil". It is John 8:44.
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oldiesman
I think it was from PFAL and subsequent Scripture Buildup including (1) scripture from Genesis on the seed of the serpent; (2) scripture from the gospels on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; (3) scripture from the epistles on the sin unto death.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Regarding what I see as scripturally errant that the devil has the ability to have people born of the seed of the devil, like the heavenly Father God has the ability to have followers of Jesus Christ to be born of the Holy Spirit with what can be called a new birth. Yes, the devil with demons can possess people when they are deceived enough. However, when they see God’s love and Jesus Christ in a favorable way instead of being deceived with steal, kill and destroy or turn crazy. They could change. People can change like the Apostle Paul changed from being a hateful Pharisee to being the best teacher of the New Testament. The demons were not created through Satan or the devil. Instead they were created by God as angels with them changing while wanting authority even above God, the creator. This is obviously a bad attitude.
Using my very good biblical study software program there is no verse in the book of Genesis at least in the New King James Version that has the word serpent in the same verse as the word seed. There is no phrase in any version of the bible at least that I have the time to research that has the phrase “seed of the serpent”. Perhaps the only way TWI could see this is if they did their own biblical version. Regarding the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Mathew chapter 12, Jesus was speaking to hateful Pharisees that opposed Jesus Christ. The Pharisees instead of being service oriented like Jesus Christ was and is, instead they wanted authority and rulership in their religion. When Jesus Christ was helpful while healing people and even casting out a demon from a man that was blind and mute without the ability to see and speak. The Pharisees accused Jesus Christ of casting out a demon with Beelzebub who the Pharisees religiously saw as the chief ruler of the demons. Jesus Christ corrected their stupid belief while explaining to the Pharisees that the demons would only be divided or against the devil or demons if they did this, while being in opposition to themselves. Then Jesus Christ forgave them for opposing himself, Jesus Christ. However, opposing the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven because to have eternal life in the future, humanity needs a new spiritual body instead of only a physical body with its decay while our physical bodies are not eternal.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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oldiesman
Agree with 99% what you wrote -- there appears to be no direct reference so it's a TWI assumption based on scripture building. One observation using PFAL: God was speaking to the serpent when He said "thy seed" and there were no chapters or verses in the original.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Interesting the words, “thy seed” as it relates to the serpent or devil. With the King James Version, this is Genesis 3:15.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (KJV)
The word “enmity” in Genesis 3:15 shows the opposite of the devil being able to get people born of the devil or the seed of the serpent. The definition of “enmity” is being actively opposed or hostile. Since I do not have the time to write a commentary on Genesis 3:15, I will copy a commentary using my very good biblical study software program.
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