So, to rephrase for the people in the cheap seats...
You don't doubt that I've had legitimate experiences that I interpret as "revelation"- but you hold that they aren't actually Divine Revelation, but rather an experience of synchronicity and/or interaction with the collective unconscious.
I'm familiar with both concepts. I disagree on your conclusions. I say that- if both concepts are correct- that they aren't mutually-exclusive with Divine Revelation. I'm aware they can be interpreted to be so, including by supposed experts. I consider that a gross oversimplification in an attempt to stuff everything into a simplistic header. I think it's one polar opposite from the claims of vpw who slapped labels of "supernatural" on everything, including sleight-of-hand tricks that he didn't understand. I think it's the answer of the over-eager who is dedicated to dismissing any concept they don't like, and who is also willing to creatively reinterpret events to match their paradigm rather than adjust their paradigm to fit the events. (Again, a polar opposite of some people's experiences in twi, and possibly someplace one can end up after fleeing ONE extreme- only to wildly embrace the other in a surge of emotion and comfort.) It's convenient, if verbose and sesquipedalian when explained.
Obviously, nobody has to agree with me. Just as the writer, I have my own "subjective conception." I find that my current one fits ALL my experiences- both what I HAVE experienced and what I have NOT experienced- better than agreeing with their POV. Anyone's free to agree with either of us- or disagree with both of us.
Now that I've had my say on this thread, I'm bowing out. I have no interest in discussing matters in this sub-forum, and only came here to directly answer someone calling me out. Everyone's free to read into my refusal to go further as they see fit, although I'd rather they did not do so. (Then again, knowing the GSC, it's probably overly optimistic to expect that.)
I'm familiar with both concepts. I disagree on your conclusions.
No problem. I didn't expect anyone to give this deep consideration... at least not immediately, if ever.
However, rather than redefining your experience as something other than divine revelation, I believe divine revelation is a legitimate way to interpret the phenomenon, but so is collective unconscious.
For me, the difference between the perspectives is that rather than anything outside of divine revelation being considered "of the devil" or some variation on that theme, I don't.
Of course, I still believe there is evil in the world, but I no longer choose to believe in it the way The Way does.
Nevertheless, we STILL see as though through a darkly tinted window. So, I'm not suggesting there's any need for anyone to accept what I presented "or else..." Whatever the "or else" might be to anyone.
I have no interest in discussing matters in this sub-forum, and only came here to directly answer someone calling me out.
I didn't call you out. I simply responded to something I recalled you having posed to me previously that I wasn't prepared to adequately reply to at the time.
Btw, the one thing I might take issue with is your apparently ironic use of the word sesquipedalian.
According to Vaknin, as I understand, we come into this world not separate from the rest of the universe. We are enmeshed in the beginning. Over time we develop a self concept and decide we are separate individuals from the rest, specifically separate from mom. A disruption in this development results in problems such as narcissism.
Alan Watts often says we are the universe. The idea that it something outside of us is just an illusion.
Our separateness from everyone and everything else up for debate. Consciousness itself is poorly understood.
Jung's collective unconscious is a fascinating idea. Our individual unconscious (not subconscious) is unnerving as it is.
In that I feel a framework for God/gods could entertained.
Is revelation here being defined as the ability to tell good from evil?
Is revelation here being defined as the ability to tell good from evil?
I don't believe that's how it's been exclusively presented. My take on it is that the OP (original poster) was saying he was granted access to privileged information that would have otherwise been inaccessible. A subset of that involved questioning whether said information (or access to it) represented reality.
I don't believe that's how it's been presented. My take on it is that the OP (original poster) was saying he was granted access to privileged information that would have otherwise been inaccessible. A subset of that involved questioning whether said information represented reality.
I'm assuming the reference is to the OP of the original thread. . . . So privileged information like how to interpret the Bible like it hasn't been known since the first century?
Just pretentious rhetoric. You know, like a grandious narcissist would do
So, I suppose it's altogether okay if GSC people are not innately curious about spirituality, what's "out there" that's bigger than any of us have been able to even imagine before. But I am innately curious even about things that are outside orthodox religion or Christianity. When I read Dr Bolen's book, it enabled me to rethink some of my experiences. Like the time, when I hitchhiked from Los Angeles to Gunnison the summer before going into residence with the 9th corpse. Among the things I endured/experienced during that particular excursion were what I believed then were God intervening to get me rides.
I've expanded my imagination to redefine those events. One reason? Because what I DID then that made the difference was to act of "letting go." Since then, I've read of other people, not claiming such intervention was from God. IOW, God makes (or allows) the rain to fall on the "just and the unjust." Put another way, meaningful events in my life were synchronistic.
This YouTube video has what I view as legitimate insight. At one point in it, the speaker mentions politics. But that's only context. It's not a debate about what are good or bad political positions. The vid is under 7 minutes. I hope you enjoy, or at least mindfully listen to the extent you can apply critical analysis to it. If you do so and believe you have a legitimate perspective to debunk this fellow's ideas, by all means, share with us.
With the false god of this world with the demons now having some authority in this age of imperfection. The main thing that they try to do is whisper or speak to people and get them to be deceived. The devil even was allowed to speak to Jesus Christ in his earthly life as read in Mathew 4:1-11. Perhaps this was to test Jesus Christ. In Matthew 4:10-11. Jesus finalized this testing with these words.
Quote
Matthew 4:10-11
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" 11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him. (NIV)
Also the serpent who was Satan spoke to Eve with the origin of humanity as worded in Genesis 3:1-19 and was able to deceive her as she admitted in Genesis 3:13. Simply all of humanity in this age of imperfection gets true thoughts and also false thoughts. We simply need to follow and apply the truthful thoughts in our daily lives.
So, I suppose it's altogether okay if GSC people are not innately curious about spirituality, what's "out there" that's bigger than any of us have been able to even imagine before. But I am innately curious even about things that are outside orthodox religion or Christianity. When I read Dr Bolen's book, it enabled me to rethink some of my experiences. Like the time, when I hitchhiked from Los Angeles to Gunnison the summer before going into residence with the 9th corpse. Among the things I endured/experienced during that particular excursion were what I believed then were God intervening to get me rides.
I've expanded my imagination to redefine those events. One reason? Because what I DID then that made the difference was to act of "letting go." Since then, I've read of other people, not claiming such intervention was from God. IOW, God makes (or allows) the rain to fall on the "just and the unjust." Put another way, meaningful events in my life were synchronistic.
This YouTube video has what I view as legitimate insight. At one point in it, the speaker mentions politics. But that's only context. It's not a debate about what are good or bad political positions. The vid is under 7 minutes. I hope you enjoy, or at least mindfully listen to the extent you can apply critical analysis to it. If you do so and believe you have a legitimate perspective to debunk this fellow's ideas, by all means, share with us.
Fascinating video – thanks, Rocky!
Towards the latter part – Beau talks about the difference in perspectives and experiences – one person sees a connection between two ideas and yet to another person the two ideas look very far apart…that touches on the stimulating factor of Grease Spot Café…I wish I could embrace that more often…maybe it takes more patience, sympathy, empathy, consideration, kindness, etc. … there’s those mysterious push-and-pull forces that I am usually oblivious to at Grease Spot – ideas and feelings that encourage a person to leave their comfort-zone – and then there’s factors that draw a person to “someplace” way outside their comfort zone…some cool stuff to think about in the surviving-a-cult-experience-and-moving-on-in-life aspect of discussions at Grease Spot Cafe.
How do you know? Is that just an assumption? If so, what does it get you to do or not do?
As read in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, Jesus was being tested by the devil and the devil was even allowed to speak to Jesus. Of course Jesus rejected the devil and never followed him. This is to verify and prove the perfection of Jesus Christ. Even when the devil spoke to Him and offered Him much, Jesus rejected the devil. In Genesis chapter 3, Eve the woman accepted words of deception as spoken by the Serpent, who we now call Satan or the devil. Adam the man was also deceived as this deception was passed from Eve onto Adam also. This perhaps figuratively shows a lack of perfection for humanity. The only perfection in humanity was and is Jesus Christ. Simply in this age of imperfection, the devil with the demons are allowed spiritually to sometimes communicate with humanity with sometimes deception and even wars that often results in death. In the future as worded at the first part of Revelation chapter 20, the devil with the demons will be put in prison for a thousand year period, then no deception for humanity will be allowed and then there will be nowars. After this period of time the devil will again be released from prison and some of humanity again will be deceived to try to make and want more wars. This looks like it will be stopped though, with the near future judgement of humanity as read at the last part of Revelation chapter 20. In the last two chapters of my biblical teaching book, I cover the last scriptures of the book of Revelation that has judgement of humanity.
Simply all of humanity in this age of imperfection gets true thoughts and also false thoughts.
5 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:
As read in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, Jesus was being tested by the devil and the devil was even allowed to speak to Jesus. Of course Jesus rejected the devil and never followed him. This is to verify and prove the perfection of Jesus Christ. Even when the devil spoke to Him and offered Him much, Jesus rejected the devil. In Genesis chapter 3, Eve the woman accepted words of deception as spoken by the Serpent, who we now call Satan or the devil. Adam the man was also deceived as this deception was passed from Eve onto Adam also. This perhaps figuratively shows a lack of perfection for humanity. The only perfection in humanity was and is Jesus Christ. Simply in this age of imperfection, the devil with the demons are allowed spiritually to sometimes communicate with humanity with sometimes deception and even wars that often results in death. In the future as worded at the first part of Revelation chapter 20, the devil with the demons will be put in prison for a thousand year period, then no deception for humanity will be allowed and then there will be nowars. After this period of time the devil will again be released from prison and some of humanity again will be deceived to try to make and want more wars. This looks like it will be stopped though, with the near future judgement of humanity as read at the last part of Revelation chapter 20.
How does your response, copied herein, explain how you know which thoughts are true and which are false? Really, I don't want to come off as condescending, but what it looks like to me is that you've set forth, in a bit of detail, your assumption(s) which may prevent you from opening your imagination to consider anything outside a fundamental biblical perspective. Is that a fair read/interpretation of your response?
On 3/21/2022 at 12:28 PM, Rocky said:
Hey Mark,
How do you know? Is that just an assumption? If so, what does it get you to do or not do?
How does your response, copied herein, explain how you know which thoughts are true and which are false? Really, I don't want to come off as condescending, but what it looks like to me is that you've set forth, in a bit of detail, your assumption(s) which may prevent you from opening your imagination to consider anything outside a fundamental biblical perspective. Is that a fair read/interpretation of your response?
I have no ability to read people's mind. Only God can do that. My goal is to be 100% spiritually truthful. I hope I am at least up to 98%. My book is only biblical instead of spreading RELIGIOUS MYTHOLOGY. One of the chapters is "The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures". In the future we will have judgement to get every knee to bow down to Jesus Christ.
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WordWolf
So, to rephrase for the people in the cheap seats...
You don't doubt that I've had legitimate experiences that I interpret as "revelation"- but you hold that they aren't actually Divine Revelation, but rather an experience of synchronicity and/or interaction with the collective unconscious.
I'm familiar with both concepts. I disagree on your conclusions. I say that- if both concepts are correct- that they aren't mutually-exclusive with Divine Revelation. I'm aware they can be interpreted to be so, including by supposed experts. I consider that a gross oversimplification in an attempt to stuff everything into a simplistic header. I think it's one polar opposite from the claims of vpw who slapped labels of "supernatural" on everything, including sleight-of-hand tricks that he didn't understand. I think it's the answer of the over-eager who is dedicated to dismissing any concept they don't like, and who is also willing to creatively reinterpret events to match their paradigm rather than adjust their paradigm to fit the events. (Again, a polar opposite of some people's experiences in twi, and possibly someplace one can end up after fleeing ONE extreme- only to wildly embrace the other in a surge of emotion and comfort.) It's convenient, if verbose and sesquipedalian when explained.
Obviously, nobody has to agree with me. Just as the writer, I have my own "subjective conception." I find that my current one fits ALL my experiences- both what I HAVE experienced and what I have NOT experienced- better than agreeing with their POV. Anyone's free to agree with either of us- or disagree with both of us.
Now that I've had my say on this thread, I'm bowing out. I have no interest in discussing matters in this sub-forum, and only came here to directly answer someone calling me out. Everyone's free to read into my refusal to go further as they see fit, although I'd rather they did not do so. (Then again, knowing the GSC, it's probably overly optimistic to expect that.)
Ciao.
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waysider
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Rocky
No problem. I didn't expect anyone to give this deep consideration... at least not immediately, if ever.
However, rather than redefining your experience as something other than divine revelation, I believe divine revelation is a legitimate way to interpret the phenomenon, but so is collective unconscious.
For me, the difference between the perspectives is that rather than anything outside of divine revelation being considered "of the devil" or some variation on that theme, I don't.
Of course, I still believe there is evil in the world, but I no longer choose to believe in it the way The Way does.
Nevertheless, we STILL see as though through a darkly tinted window. So, I'm not suggesting there's any need for anyone to accept what I presented "or else..." Whatever the "or else" might be to anyone.
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Rocky
I didn't call you out. I simply responded to something I recalled you having posed to me previously that I wasn't prepared to adequately reply to at the time.
Btw, the one thing I might take issue with is your apparently ironic use of the word sesquipedalian.
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Bolshevik
According to Vaknin, as I understand, we come into this world not separate from the rest of the universe. We are enmeshed in the beginning. Over time we develop a self concept and decide we are separate individuals from the rest, specifically separate from mom. A disruption in this development results in problems such as narcissism.
Alan Watts often says we are the universe. The idea that it something outside of us is just an illusion.
Our separateness from everyone and everything else up for debate. Consciousness itself is poorly understood.
Jung's collective unconscious is a fascinating idea. Our individual unconscious (not subconscious) is unnerving as it is.
In that I feel a framework for God/gods could entertained.
Is revelation here being defined as the ability to tell good from evil?
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waysider
I don't believe that's how it's been exclusively presented. My take on it is that the OP (original poster) was saying he was granted access to privileged information that would have otherwise been inaccessible. A subset of that involved questioning whether said information (or access to it) represented reality.
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Rocky
Not by me.
Huh? Do you mean the original poster on this topic/thread?
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Bolshevik
I'm assuming the reference is to the OP of the original thread. . . . So privileged information like how to interpret the Bible like it hasn't been known since the first century?
Just pretentious rhetoric. You know, like a grandious narcissist would do
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Rocky
Which thread would that be?
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Bolshevik
This thread is a spin-off of Mr French's thread.
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waysider
Yes, this one.
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waysider
One of the hallmarks of a cult is laying claim to privileged information.
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Bolshevik
Mr French made some highly questionable claims. So much so I would suspect attention seeking as the motive.
This thread I thought was to go in a different direction.
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Rocky
"Just pretentious rhetoric. You know, like a grandious narcissist would do
"
Indeed. I appreciate the clarification. I had to ask.
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Rocky
In case I wasn't clear in the OP for THIS thread, Mr French's topic/thread was context, but this thread changed the subject altogether.
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Rocky
So, I suppose it's altogether okay if GSC people are not innately curious about spirituality, what's "out there" that's bigger than any of us have been able to even imagine before. But I am innately curious even about things that are outside orthodox religion or Christianity. When I read Dr Bolen's book, it enabled me to rethink some of my experiences. Like the time, when I hitchhiked from Los Angeles to Gunnison the summer before going into residence with the 9th corpse. Among the things I endured/experienced during that particular excursion were what I believed then were God intervening to get me rides.
I've expanded my imagination to redefine those events. One reason? Because what I DID then that made the difference was to act of "letting go." Since then, I've read of other people, not claiming such intervention was from God. IOW, God makes (or allows) the rain to fall on the "just and the unjust." Put another way, meaningful events in my life were synchronistic.
This YouTube video has what I view as legitimate insight. At one point in it, the speaker mentions politics. But that's only context. It's not a debate about what are good or bad political positions. The vid is under 7 minutes. I hope you enjoy, or at least mindfully listen to the extent you can apply critical analysis to it. If you do so and believe you have a legitimate perspective to debunk this fellow's ideas, by all means, share with us.
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Mark Sanguinetti
With the false god of this world with the demons now having some authority in this age of imperfection. The main thing that they try to do is whisper or speak to people and get them to be deceived. The devil even was allowed to speak to Jesus Christ in his earthly life as read in Mathew 4:1-11. Perhaps this was to test Jesus Christ. In Matthew 4:10-11. Jesus finalized this testing with these words.
Also the serpent who was Satan spoke to Eve with the origin of humanity as worded in Genesis 3:1-19 and was able to deceive her as she admitted in Genesis 3:13. Simply all of humanity in this age of imperfection gets true thoughts and also false thoughts. We simply need to follow and apply the truthful thoughts in our daily lives.
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Rocky
How does one, according to your standard, tell the difference?
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T-Bone
Fascinating video – thanks, Rocky!
Towards the latter part – Beau talks about the difference in perspectives and experiences – one person sees a connection between two ideas and yet to another person the two ideas look very far apart…that touches on the stimulating factor of Grease Spot Café…I wish I could embrace that more often…maybe it takes more patience, sympathy, empathy, consideration, kindness, etc. … there’s those mysterious push-and-pull forces that I am usually oblivious to at Grease Spot – ideas and feelings that encourage a person to leave their comfort-zone – and then there’s factors that draw a person to “someplace” way outside their comfort zone…some cool stuff to think about in the surviving-a-cult-experience-and-moving-on-in-life aspect of discussions at Grease Spot Cafe.
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Rocky
Hey Mark,
How do you know? Is that just an assumption? If so, what does it get you to do or not do?
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Mark Sanguinetti
As read in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, Jesus was being tested by the devil and the devil was even allowed to speak to Jesus. Of course Jesus rejected the devil and never followed him. This is to verify and prove the perfection of Jesus Christ. Even when the devil spoke to Him and offered Him much, Jesus rejected the devil. In Genesis chapter 3, Eve the woman accepted words of deception as spoken by the Serpent, who we now call Satan or the devil. Adam the man was also deceived as this deception was passed from Eve onto Adam also. This perhaps figuratively shows a lack of perfection for humanity. The only perfection in humanity was and is Jesus Christ. Simply in this age of imperfection, the devil with the demons are allowed spiritually to sometimes communicate with humanity with sometimes deception and even wars that often results in death. In the future as worded at the first part of Revelation chapter 20, the devil with the demons will be put in prison for a thousand year period, then no deception for humanity will be allowed and then there will be no wars. After this period of time the devil will again be released from prison and some of humanity again will be deceived to try to make and want more wars. This looks like it will be stopped though, with the near future judgement of humanity as read at the last part of Revelation chapter 20. In the last two chapters of my biblical teaching book, I cover the last scriptures of the book of Revelation that has judgement of humanity.
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Rocky
How does your response, copied herein, explain how you know which thoughts are true and which are false? Really, I don't want to come off as condescending, but what it looks like to me is that you've set forth, in a bit of detail, your assumption(s) which may prevent you from opening your imagination to consider anything outside a fundamental biblical perspective. Is that a fair read/interpretation of your response?
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Rocky
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Mark Sanguinetti
I have no ability to read people's mind. Only God can do that. My goal is to be 100% spiritually truthful. I hope I am at least up to 98%. My book is only biblical instead of spreading RELIGIOUS MYTHOLOGY. One of the chapters is "The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures". In the future we will have judgement to get every knee to bow down to Jesus Christ.
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