Nice TBone and WW great breakdown on the twisting of even the most basic of scriptures, which have parallels in writings in other religions. ”You can do as you fool well please” sounds like VPWs mission statement. ...
None of that bears any resemblance to Jesus teachings of love God and love your neighbor.
Chockfull, your post got me thinking about the importance of appropriately evaluating wierwille’s life and works. According to some wierwille/PFAL fans we should appreciate the good things he taught us. The more I thought about it, I kept going back to one of the passages I listed in my previous post – here – discussing the impact of sin AFTER salvation...the ramifications of one person’s sinful behavior can affect the rest of the local church.
Note in I Corinthians 5 Paul is coming down on them for tolerating a church member’s sinful behavior (which would include church leaders ); basically Paul is saying such open-mindedness is dangerous because it’s like yeast that starts the fermentation process in a new batch of dough…FYI yeast consists largely of fungus cells - spore-producing organisms that feed on organic matter that produces fermentation - in biochemistry, it is narrowly defined as the extraction of energy from carbohydrates in the absence of oxygen. I can imagine sin as something in a scary sci-fi movie about a creature who sucks the lifeforce out of other beings. No wait – I’ve actually seen this movie! It’s The 4-D Man a 1959 film.
Now read I Corinthians 5 and see if you think confronting sin is that important to the health of the church. Paul’s instructions apply to ALL members of the local church:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” I Corinthians 5 NIV
I don’t see here or anywhere else in Scripture a directive that says when it comes to sinful behavior, we’re to cut certain folks some slack because of their special status in the church. Instead, another passage comes to mind: Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism…Acts 10:34
Barnes notes on the KJV “no respecter of persons” - The word used here denotes "the act of showing favor to one on account of rank, family, wealth, or partiality arising from any cause." It is explained in James 2:1-4. A judge is a respecter of persons when he favors one of the parties on account of private friendship, or because he is a man of rank, influence, or power, or because he belongs to the same political party, etc. from Bible Hub Commentary Acts 10:34
…yet in TWI what I witnessed is that most way corps who had been around wierwille for a while were acclimatized to his decadent lifestyle. I think his depraved way of life was subsumed under the general opinion that he was so spiritual…was so spiritually mature…he so renewed his mind that he was unaffected by sin and maybe not even susceptible to sin…of course he’d go on about how humble he was and had no problem forgiving others because he knew what God forgave him for…sounds pretty sweet and fair-minded doesn’t it? God only knows – may be an unrepentant sinner’s famous last words. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.John 16:2 wierwille probably thought he was serving God’s word to the way corps as he served up his immorally laced ideology.
what a betrayal of trust!
Many of us assumed he was THE MAN OF GOD FOR THIS DAY AND TIME AND HOUR while he lived a double life… To the general public of TWI he was “the teacher of PFAL” yet he also maintained a separate…simultaneous… and secret depraved lifestyle.
Paul’s words to the Corinthian church are just as relevant to the way corps today: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate…And you are proud!
Must be something wrong with the way corps’ scale of values.
For whatever weird reasons that drive people – I think some corps may have felt almost a deep pleasure or satisfaction over wierwille’s “achievement” of such renewed mind spirituality – like his way was the ideal to shoot for…an example of someone who mastered PFAL…once any newbie way corps got over the shock of seeing wierwille in his natural depraved state…their moral compass may suffer in emotional numbness…other psychological symptoms may follow…like an overpowering sense of fear or anxiety as if YOU are the weird one for thinking evil of “the man of god”.
try a couple of thought experiments:
1.) try imagining if Paul never said anything to the Corinthian church about the influence of the immoral church member. How would that play out in the long term? What kind of credibility would the church have?
2.) Imagine if Paul and other church leaders were not only cool with rampant immorality but had all kinds of illicit side gigs going on themselves. Would you look at the epistles any differently? Would it bother you that there was a double standard in the Christian faith? The Bible says one thing – but we all know you can do as you full well please.
~ ~ ~ ~
what’s so bad about PFAL?
Well, besides the fact that wierwille uses logical fallacies and twists Scripture to champion his cause - most new students are unaware of the wicked error that ferments as they continue to review the class materials once they’ve graduated from PFAL. Your boasting [over the supposed spirituality of your church] is not good [indeed, it is vulgar and inappropriate]. Do you not know that [just] a little leaven ferments the whole batch [of dough, just as a little sin corrupts a person or an entire church]? I Corinthians 5:6 Amplified
wierwille probably thought he was serving God’s word to the way corps as he served up his immorally laced ideology.
what a betrayal of trust!
Many of us assumed he was THE MAN OF GOD FOR THIS DAY AND TIME AND HOUR while he lived a double life… To the general public of TWI he was “the teacher of PFAL” yet he also maintained a separate…simultaneous… and secret depraved lifestyle.
I feel this is spot on. With wierwille's doctrinal error such as "keeping our affair in the lockbox" and "everything is ok as long as it's done in believing"...(I'm paraphrasing but hopefully my examples communicate) --- Wierwille was above sin. The depravity he allowed in his own life was backed up with twisted scriptures. Then based on his twisted scriptures he expected others to excuse his depravity. I feel this still goes on today with followers who overlook his obvious sinful life because he taught us the word....barf.
I feel this is spot on. With wierwille's doctrinal error such as "keeping our affair in the lockbox" and "everything is ok as long as it's done in believing"...(I'm paraphrasing but hopefully my examples communicate) --- Wierwille was above sin. The depravity he allowed in his own life was backed up with twisted scriptures. Then based on his twisted scriptures he expected others to excuse his depravity. I feel this still goes on today with followers who overlook his obvious sinful life because he taught us the word....barf.
In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him.
In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him.
Wow....just wow......and I don't mean the program. He actually said that his behavior that people do not see does not matter unless you believe it will. That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationilization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quoate Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?
Im not tooting my own horn with what I am about to say because I stumble daily as a Christian. I was at work on Friday and we have a garage loaded with electrical construction materials. I need 4 lights for my bathroom light fixture at home. I seriously almost swiped a box and put them into my car to use at home. Nobody would have ever known. I didn't because God sees all and stealing is wrong. I will not steal, not even a penny. If I do it accidentally then I would want to restore ten fold what was taken.
My point - Why the heck didn't VPW use this as an example to teach Christian character? I would have mad respect for him if he said something to the effect of "Well people may not see what you do, but God does always so you want to always do the best you can to live the Bible"....but no....he reveals his true inner nature of being a man-pleaser and shows no concern for what Almighty God sees him do. And I bet God saw some real ugliness.
Wow....just wow......and I don't mean the program. He actually said that his behavior that people do not see does not matter unless you believe it will. That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationilization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quoate Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?
Im not tooting my own horn with what I am about to say because I stumble daily as a Christian. I was at work on Friday and we have a garage loaded with electrical construction materials. I need 4 lights for my bathroom light fixture at home. I seriously almost swiped a box and put them into my car to use at home. Nobody would have ever known. I didn't because God sees all and stealing is wrong. I will not steal, not even a penny. If I do it accidentally then I would want to restore ten fold what was taken.
My point - Why the heck didn't VPW use this as an example to teach Christian character? I would have mad respect for him if he said something to the effect of "Well people may not see what you do, but God does always so you want to always do the best you can to live the Bible"....but no....he reveals his true inner nature of being a man-pleaser and shows no concern for what Almighty God sees him do. And I bet God saw some real ugliness.
He can't teach Christian character because it's a hand too righteous to fit in his little withered glove.
So much is revealed on every single page of this 200 page transcript. Victor HATES questions because he's afraid of being exposed. Those who are apt to teach are not afraid of questions. He reacts by deflecting and inventing and by offering word salad. So much bull$hit. It may be challenging for some to hear the obvious deception when listening to tapes, but to read it written on the page, it's glaringly obvious.
His narcissism compelled him to record and transcribe everything. But by doing this, he got too far out over his skis, as someone so insightfully once said on this forum.
That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationalization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quote Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?
Incredibly insightful.
Crowley REJECTED fundamentalism and apparently was known for (among other things) his interest in Western esotericism.
It seems there are a few parallels between Crowley and Wierwille. The differences seem to be mainly that Victor employed heavy use of the terminology of Christianity but still made clear distinctions between himself and the Christian Church.
Wierwille lived the life of a libertine and justified it by verbal legerdemain. Crowley apparently felt no need to hide his libertine lifestyle.
In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him.
"Day by day"
And moment by moment.
The ability to live in a perpetual reset button. Like a video game. The last game meant nothing. The next one isn't a thought yet. When you are around people like that, when you are around a group of people like that . . . What interaction has value? None.
Trying to connect dots . . . Or X's ... he had that board in the class with different size X's and said they are all the same, meaning all forms of sin are the same, none are worse than the other. . .
But the renewed mind has a pecking order. As he alludes to in those Corps teachings.
(And that ignores the DTA class and original sin.)
Trying to connect dots . . . Or X's ... he had that board in the class with different size X's and said they are all the same, meaning all forms of sin are the same, none are worse than the other. . .
But the renewed mind has a pecking order. As he alludes to in those Corps teachings.
(And that ignores the DTA class and original sin.)
interesting point - if all forms of sin are the same and none are worse than any other -
Trying to connect dots . . . Or X's ... he had that board in the class with different size X's and said they are all the same, meaning all forms of sin are the same, none are worse than the other. . .
But the renewed mind has a pecking order. As he alludes to in those Corps teachings.
(And that ignores the DTA class and original sin.)
"The stronger believer has a more renewed mind." Here the renewed mind is a conditioned mind shackled (strengthened) by belief. Not a free mind, but a programmed mind. The lie requires belief to wield any power or influence; but Truth requires no belief..
How did he define the unforgivable sin? What is the DTA class?
"The stronger believer has a more renewed mind." Here the renewed mind is a conditioned mind shackled (strengthened) by belief. Not a free mind, but a programmed mind. The lie requires belief to wield any power or influence; but belief has no place where truth is concerned.
How did he define the unforgivable sin? What is the DTA class?
Unforgivable sin as I heard was a wedge in the mind that allowed devil spirits full access at all times. You couldn't renew your mind or something. . I'm not sure how you commit it though. Maybe if you peed in the fountain.
DTA, Defeating the Adversary. Because dust bunnies are a spiritual battle.
"Sinning" in TWI was arbitrary. It was anyone's guess if you were in or out of fellowship.
Unforgivable sin as I heard was a wedge in the mind that allowed devil spirits full access at all times. You couldn't renew your mind or something. . I'm not sure how you commit it though. Maybe if you peed in the fountain.
DTA, Defeating the Adversary. Because dust bunnies are a spiritual battle.
"Sinning" in TWI was arbitrary. It was anyone's guess if you were in or out of fellowship.
Really? All devil spirit access all the time?
Maybe Mike can define it according to usage. Mike, what is the unforgivable sin according to victor?
You're always downhill in the pecking order of believing. And ALL sin is just as bad. You can't make small mistakes. They are all a catastrophe.
But no condemnation sure do you love you forgiveness and yada. Until you f it up again.
THIS. The eggshells. This is exactly what NPDs make you do - walk on eggshells all the time. All nine eggshells all the time.
When I defended with no condemnation, completely complete, super-conqueror, I was met with rage and fury. Hypocrisy and contempt. Hell hath no fury like a dogmatic doctrine full of holes.
Old guy chiming in here. The unforgivable sin was defined and expounded upon in the early PFAL class. It freaked too many people out so it was removed and taught as a separate session and then again in the Advanced Class.
The basic concept of the unforgivable sin was that people could get "born again" of the seed of Satan. This was different than devil spirit possession, which was temporal in nature. The reason it was considered unforgivable was because it had permanence due to it being seed initiated like the new birth Christ in you. Only, instead of Christ in you, it was supposed to be the Devil in you. Once you had it, it could never be removed or reversed.
Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it.
Old guy chiming in here. The unforgivable sin was defined and expounded upon in the early PFAL class. It freaked too many people out so it was removed and taught as a separate session and then again in the Advanced Class.
The basic concept of the unforgivable sin was that people could get "born again" of the seed of Satan. This was different than devil spirit possession, which was temporal in nature. The reason it was considered unforgivable was because it had permanence due to it being seed initiated like the new birth Christ in you. Only, instead of Christ in you, it was supposed to be the Devil in you. Once you had it, it could never be removed or reversed.
Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it.
Thanks Waysider. I've read/heard that before, but it seems completely incomplete. How do you get born again of devil seed? How H-O-W? Can you get this devil seed even if you are born again of Holy Spirit? What are the scripture proof texts?
Serious questions, even though I can barely see to type through these tears of laughter.
The devil can't create. He puts a wedge into the mind of someone NOT born again
Rightly divided BS.
Who created the wedge? What are the chapters and verses supporting this? Any real life examples of people with devil wedges?
This is fascinating and hilarious. I've always heard this and been personally gaslighted with it, but no one (with distinction) has ever explained how or provided scriptural evidence.
Who created the wedge? What are the chapters and verses supporting this? Any real life examples of people with devil wedges?
This is fascinating and hilarious. I've always heard this and been personally gaslighted with it, but no one (with distinction) has ever explained how or provided scriptural evidence.
WHO CREATED THE WEDGE
This whole thing could fall apart like a house of cards. . . .
If only there were more Corps Teachings. . . We may never know ow for sure. . .
I've downloaded hundreds of pages of transcripts of Corps teachings and Advanced Classes '71/'79 from Archive.org. Also downloaded dozens of hours of CFS video. But the unforgivable sin teaching is conspicuously missing. There are files with the title, but all content has been redacted.
I'm fascinated. I'll just beleeeve for someone to come through with more details.
Old guy chiming in here. The unforgivable sin was defined and expounded upon in the early PFAL class. It freaked too many people out so it was removed and taught as a separate session and then again in the Advanced Class...The basic concept of the unforgivable sin was that people could get "born again" of the seed of Satan. This was different than devil spirit possession, which was temporal in nature. The reason it was considered unforgivable was because it had permanence due to it being seed initiated like the new birth Christ in you. Only, instead of Christ in you, it was supposed to be the Devil in you. Once you had it, it could never be removed or reversed...Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it.
~ ~ ~ ~
"Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it."
That right there is my idea of a healthy frame of mind!
Back in my TWI-days I was a very forgiving person when it came to interacting with others cuz I believed it was the right thing to do. But when it came to myself – I had a hard time breaking the cycle of guilt that seemed to get more and more ramped up the more I got involved in TWI. Trying to please leadership I’d get caught up in their guilt-inducing-tirades…guilt and frustration…I got yelled at for not rushing over to “batten down the hatches” of the corps tents when there was a torrential downpour. When asked why I didn’t – I replied “because Rev. Martindale addressed us all huddled under the main tent and said don’t ANYONE leave the tent”. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I think you’re correct on wierwille’s definition of the unforgiveable sin…since I’ve left TWI, I keep revising my own definitions of TWI-definitions...and so…the unforgiveable sin in TWI was questioning wierwille and other leadership.... ....that’s why the greatest sin a TWI-believer can commit is to break the first and great commandment…to NOT believe wierwille with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength…the second is like unto it – thou shalt believe thy leadership just like you believe wierwille. On these 2 commandments hang all the PFAL books and TWI-programs.
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T-Bone
Chockfull, your post got me thinking about the importance of appropriately evaluating wierwille’s life and works. According to some wierwille/PFAL fans we should appreciate the good things he taught us. The more I thought about it, I kept going back to one of the passages I listed in my previous post – here – discussing the impact of sin AFTER salvation...the ramifications of one person’s sinful behavior can affect the rest of the local church.
Note in I Corinthians 5 Paul is coming down on them for tolerating a church member’s sinful behavior (which would include church leaders ); basically Paul is saying such open-mindedness is dangerous because it’s like yeast that starts the fermentation process in a new batch of dough…FYI yeast consists largely of fungus cells - spore-producing organisms that feed on organic matter that produces fermentation - in biochemistry, it is narrowly defined as the extraction of energy from carbohydrates in the absence of oxygen. I can imagine sin as something in a scary sci-fi movie about a creature who sucks the lifeforce out of other beings. No wait – I’ve actually seen this movie! It’s The 4-D Man a 1959 film.
Now read I Corinthians 5 and see if you think confronting sin is that important to the health of the church. Paul’s instructions apply to ALL members of the local church:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” I Corinthians 5 NIV
I don’t see here or anywhere else in Scripture a directive that says when it comes to sinful behavior, we’re to cut certain folks some slack because of their special status in the church. Instead, another passage comes to mind: Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism…Acts 10:34
Barnes notes on the KJV “no respecter of persons” - The word used here denotes "the act of showing favor to one on account of rank, family, wealth, or partiality arising from any cause." It is explained in James 2:1-4. A judge is a respecter of persons when he favors one of the parties on account of private friendship, or because he is a man of rank, influence, or power, or because he belongs to the same political party, etc. from Bible Hub Commentary Acts 10:34
…yet in TWI what I witnessed is that most way corps who had been around wierwille for a while were acclimatized to his decadent lifestyle. I think his depraved way of life was subsumed under the general opinion that he was so spiritual…was so spiritually mature…he so renewed his mind that he was unaffected by sin and maybe not even susceptible to sin…of course he’d go on about how humble he was and had no problem forgiving others because he knew what God forgave him for…sounds pretty sweet and fair-minded doesn’t it? God only knows – may be an unrepentant sinner’s famous last words. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2 wierwille probably thought he was serving God’s word to the way corps as he served up his immorally laced ideology.
what a betrayal of trust!
Many of us assumed he was THE MAN OF GOD FOR THIS DAY AND TIME AND HOUR while he lived a double life… To the general public of TWI he was “the teacher of PFAL” yet he also maintained a separate…simultaneous… and secret depraved lifestyle.
Paul’s words to the Corinthian church are just as relevant to the way corps today: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate…And you are proud!
Must be something wrong with the way corps’ scale of values.
For whatever weird reasons that drive people – I think some corps may have felt almost a deep pleasure or satisfaction over wierwille’s “achievement” of such renewed mind spirituality – like his way was the ideal to shoot for…an example of someone who mastered PFAL…once any newbie way corps got over the shock of seeing wierwille in his natural depraved state…their moral compass may suffer in emotional numbness…other psychological symptoms may follow…like an overpowering sense of fear or anxiety as if YOU are the weird one for thinking evil of “the man of god”.
try a couple of thought experiments:
1.) try imagining if Paul never said anything to the Corinthian church about the influence of the immoral church member. How would that play out in the long term? What kind of credibility would the church have?
2.) Imagine if Paul and other church leaders were not only cool with rampant immorality but had all kinds of illicit side gigs going on themselves. Would you look at the epistles any differently? Would it bother you that there was a double standard in the Christian faith? The Bible says one thing – but we all know you can do as you full well please.
~ ~ ~ ~
what’s so bad about PFAL?
Well, besides the fact that wierwille uses logical fallacies and twists Scripture to champion his cause - most new students are unaware of the wicked error that ferments as they continue to review the class materials once they’ve graduated from PFAL. Your boasting [over the supposed spirituality of your church] is not good [indeed, it is vulgar and inappropriate]. Do you not know that [just] a little leaven ferments the whole batch [of dough, just as a little sin corrupts a person or an entire church]? I Corinthians 5:6 Amplified
~ ~ ~ ~
DVD Bonus features:
Wiki – I Corinthians 5
Blue Letter Bible.org I Corinthians 5
Bible Study Tools: Matthew Henry on I Corinthians 5
Enduring Word Commentary: I Corinthians 5
Study Light Commentaries: I Corinthians 5
Bible Reference.com : I Corinthians 5
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Edited by T-BoneHe that is without typos do the first edit
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OldSkool
I feel this is spot on. With wierwille's doctrinal error such as "keeping our affair in the lockbox" and "everything is ok as long as it's done in believing"...(I'm paraphrasing but hopefully my examples communicate) --- Wierwille was above sin. The depravity he allowed in his own life was backed up with twisted scriptures. Then based on his twisted scriptures he expected others to excuse his depravity. I feel this still goes on today with followers who overlook his obvious sinful life because he taught us the word....barf.
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Nathan_Jr
In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him.
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OldSkool
Wow....just wow......and I don't mean the program. He actually said that his behavior that people do not see does not matter unless you believe it will. That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationilization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quoate Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?
Im not tooting my own horn with what I am about to say because I stumble daily as a Christian. I was at work on Friday and we have a garage loaded with electrical construction materials. I need 4 lights for my bathroom light fixture at home. I seriously almost swiped a box and put them into my car to use at home. Nobody would have ever known. I didn't because God sees all and stealing is wrong. I will not steal, not even a penny. If I do it accidentally then I would want to restore ten fold what was taken.
My point - Why the heck didn't VPW use this as an example to teach Christian character? I would have mad respect for him if he said something to the effect of "Well people may not see what you do, but God does always so you want to always do the best you can to live the Bible"....but no....he reveals his true inner nature of being a man-pleaser and shows no concern for what Almighty God sees him do. And I bet God saw some real ugliness.
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Nathan_Jr
He can't teach Christian character because it's a hand too righteous to fit in his little withered glove.
So much is revealed on every single page of this 200 page transcript. Victor HATES questions because he's afraid of being exposed. Those who are apt to teach are not afraid of questions. He reacts by deflecting and inventing and by offering word salad. So much bull$hit. It may be challenging for some to hear the obvious deception when listening to tapes, but to read it written on the page, it's glaringly obvious.
His narcissism compelled him to record and transcribe everything. But by doing this, he got too far out over his skis, as someone so insightfully once said on this forum.
Thank God for GSC.
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Rocky
Incredibly insightful.
Crowley REJECTED fundamentalism and apparently was known for (among other things) his interest in Western esotericism.
Edited by RockyIt seems there are a few parallels between Crowley and Wierwille. The differences seem to be mainly that Victor employed heavy use of the terminology of Christianity but still made clear distinctions between himself and the Christian Church.
Wierwille lived the life of a libertine and justified it by verbal legerdemain. Crowley apparently felt no need to hide his libertine lifestyle.
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Bolshevik
"Day by day"
And moment by moment.
The ability to live in a perpetual reset button. Like a video game. The last game meant nothing. The next one isn't a thought yet. When you are around people like that, when you are around a group of people like that . . . What interaction has value? None.
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Bolshevik
Trying to connect dots . . . Or X's ... he had that board in the class with different size X's and said they are all the same, meaning all forms of sin are the same, none are worse than the other. . .
But the renewed mind has a pecking order. As he alludes to in those Corps teachings.
(And that ignores the DTA class and original sin.)
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T-Bone
interesting point - if all forms of sin are the same and none are worse than any other -
then why is the unforgiveable sin unforgivable?
...just asking for a friend
Edited by T-Bonethe unforgiving editor
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Nathan_Jr
"The stronger believer has a more renewed mind." Here the renewed mind is a conditioned mind shackled (strengthened) by belief. Not a free mind, but a programmed mind. The lie requires belief to wield any power or influence; but Truth requires no belief..
How did he define the unforgivable sin? What is the DTA class?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
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Bolshevik
Unforgivable sin as I heard was a wedge in the mind that allowed devil spirits full access at all times. You couldn't renew your mind or something. . I'm not sure how you commit it though. Maybe if you peed in the fountain.
DTA, Defeating the Adversary. Because dust bunnies are a spiritual battle.
"Sinning" in TWI was arbitrary. It was anyone's guess if you were in or out of fellowship.
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Nathan_Jr
Really? All devil spirit access all the time?
Maybe Mike can define it according to usage. Mike, what is the unforgivable sin according to victor?
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Bolshevik
Walking on eggshells.
You're always downhill in the pecking order of believing. And ALL sin is just as bad. You can't make small mistakes. They are all a catastrophe.
But no condemnation sure do you love you forgiveness and yada. Until you f it up again.
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Nathan_Jr
THIS. The eggshells. This is exactly what NPDs make you do - walk on eggshells all the time. All nine eggshells all the time.
When I defended with no condemnation, completely complete, super-conqueror, I was met with rage and fury. Hypocrisy and contempt. Hell hath no fury like a dogmatic doctrine full of holes.
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waysider
Old guy chiming in here. The unforgivable sin was defined and expounded upon in the early PFAL class. It freaked too many people out so it was removed and taught as a separate session and then again in the Advanced Class.
The basic concept of the unforgivable sin was that people could get "born again" of the seed of Satan. This was different than devil spirit possession, which was temporal in nature. The reason it was considered unforgivable was because it had permanence due to it being seed initiated like the new birth Christ in you. Only, instead of Christ in you, it was supposed to be the Devil in you. Once you had it, it could never be removed or reversed.
Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks Waysider. I've read/heard that before, but it seems completely incomplete. How do you get born again of devil seed? How H-O-W? Can you get this devil seed even if you are born again of Holy Spirit? What are the scripture proof texts?
Serious questions, even though I can barely see to type through these tears of laughter.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
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Bolshevik
The devil can't create. He puts a wedge into the mind of someone NOT born again
Rightly divided BS.
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Nathan_Jr
Who created the wedge? What are the chapters and verses supporting this? Any real life examples of people with devil wedges?
This is fascinating and hilarious. I've always heard this and been personally gaslighted with it, but no one (with distinction) has ever explained how or provided scriptural evidence.
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Bolshevik
LCM I think would quote Proverbs 6:18 explaining how these thoughts can't come from natural man. They come from The Adversary.
So for every beleaber get revy while high there's a seed boy getting naughty ideas from the other team.
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Bolshevik
WHO CREATED THE WEDGE
This whole thing could fall apart like a house of cards. . . .
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Nathan_Jr
And, of course, it did.
Proverbs 6:12-18 sound like descriptions of VPW and LCM.
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Bolshevik
If only there were more Corps Teachings. . . We may never know for sure. . .
Edited by BolshevikSpelling wedgy
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Nathan_Jr
I've downloaded hundreds of pages of transcripts of Corps teachings and Advanced Classes '71/'79 from Archive.org. Also downloaded dozens of hours of CFS video. But the unforgivable sin teaching is conspicuously missing. There are files with the title, but all content has been redacted.
I'm fascinated. I'll just beleeeve for someone to come through with more details.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves and such
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T-Bone
~ ~ ~ ~
"Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it."
That right there is my idea of a healthy frame of mind!
Back in my TWI-days I was a very forgiving person when it came to interacting with others cuz I believed it was the right thing to do. But when it came to myself – I had a hard time breaking the cycle of guilt that seemed to get more and more ramped up the more I got involved in TWI. Trying to please leadership I’d get caught up in their guilt-inducing-tirades…guilt and frustration…I got yelled at for not rushing over to “batten down the hatches” of the corps tents when there was a torrential downpour. When asked why I didn’t – I replied “because Rev. Martindale addressed us all huddled under the main tent and said don’t ANYONE leave the tent”. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I think you’re correct on wierwille’s definition of the unforgiveable sin…since I’ve left TWI, I keep revising my own definitions of TWI-definitions...and so…the unforgiveable sin in TWI was questioning wierwille and other leadership.... ....that’s why the greatest sin a TWI-believer can commit is to break the first and great commandment…to NOT believe wierwille with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength…the second is like unto it – thou shalt believe thy leadership just like you believe wierwille. On these 2 commandments hang all the PFAL books and TWI-programs.
Edited by T-BoneThe first and greatest typos
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