Wierwille (and Pillai) may have been on to something with the concept of Orientalisms. Except they focused to narrowly on individual phrases and expressions. Why did they not or would they not consider the entire culture from which the Old and New Testaments emerged and try to grasp the overall (i.e. the 30,000 foot view) in the first place? Just sayin'.
Are you using Orientalisms as a way to explain and understand God’s actions, in requiring a ransom of death be paid to justify man sinning in the Garden of Eden? Not only demanding the death of his son, but burdening the rest of mankind with a sin nature they must carry with them for the rest of thie lives?
Are you saying if we fully grasped the full meaning of orientalisms (the 30,000 foot view), we would understand why God did what he did in the Garden of Eden, and then everything Raf suggested would be a moot point?
Are you using Orientalisms as a way to explain and understand God’s actions, in requiring a ransom of death be paid to justify man sinning in the Garden of Eden? Not only demanding the death of his son, but burdening the rest of mankind with a sin nature they must carry with them for the rest of thie lives?
Are you saying if we fully grasped the full meaning of orientalisms (the 30,000 foot view), we would understand why God did what he did in the Garden of Eden, and then everything Raf suggested would be a moot point?
No, No and No.
I am saying we don't adequately understand the culture(s) in which these STORIES emerged. Your questions suggest the stories must be taken literally regardless of the cultural context. That's definitely not the point I was making. Thanks for asking.
I'll put it back at you. IF you are a father (I don't know whether you are or not) and to have a beautiful, perfect child who would one day enable you to have an infinite number of same BUT you knew to have this you would also have a son (Adam) who would nearly screw things up...would you still go ahead and have that first child ?? I can only speak for myself and say YES !!
As for Rafs question of WHY place the tree of knowledge of good and evil smack bang in the 'midst' of the garden ? Well, that just magnifies man's inquisitive and disobedient nature...doesn't it. "Here Adam, here's a WHOLE lotta f...ing garden and panoramic sights for you to ENJOY...BUT don't wander over to that hole in the ground 250 miles to the west lest ye fall in and hurt yourself." Where do you think man's eventually going to go ??
Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.
Why did that tree exist in the first place?
And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?
Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.
Why did that tree exist in the first place?
And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?
Neither does it say Adam was "in the midst" ? Adam could have been 251 miles away :)
What would you say about a father who allowed his son to suffer unimaginablly and be finally murdered? And at any time, this father could have intervened and put a halt to all this pain. This father stood by and allowed his son to go through a mock trial, allowed false witnesses to testify against him, watched as he was whipped, and thorns put upon his head, and finally murdered.
And why did this son have to endure all this pain and death? Because previously, this same father, set up another son to fail. With the full knowledge his son would not successfully complete the task, he put his son through it anyway. This failure would not only affect this son, but all future sons throughout eternity. Because of this son’s failure, the second son had to die to overcome it.
This is not a good track record of a loving father; one son setup to fail, and the second setup to be murdered.
This father should be reported to Children Protective Services immediately. It is too late to help these two sons, but current and future sons need to be protected from such an irresponsible parent.
Right. Wickedness. I would NEVER sacrifice my son for anything or anyone. Not for any ideology. Not for man-made theology. Not for self-interpreting stories written by superstitious ancient middle easterners. Not on a boat. Not with a goat.
My wife and I made 2 sons. I've told them not to do some things and they did it anyway. And I've told them to do some things that they didn't do.
I am sure every parent can relate to your experiences of raising children. Many times they do the opposite of what we wish they would.
However, we are discussing God, the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, creator. One would think he would have made us, from the beginning, perfect, not able to do stupid stuff. After all, that is exactly how life will be after the return, so it is within God’s grasp to make life perfect.
But, if we look at Genesis 6:5-7: God has done some pretty stupid stuff, and he even acknowledges the error of his ways. This crazy action by God, resulted in mankind being destroyed. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the lord said, “I will destroy man….”
If God had fore knowledge, he would have known he created very imperfect people. Why make people, knowing you will wipe them off the face of the earth, in the future?
Cman, would there ever be any evil thing your 2 sons could do, that you would wish they had never been born, and kill them?
However, we are discussing God, the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, creator. One would think he would have made us, from the beginning, perfect, not able to do stupid stuff. After all, that is exactly how life will be after the return, so it is within God’s grasp to make life perfect.
Unable to do stupid stuff?
As Father, "shh, don't tell your Mom" is a matter I take very seriously.
Then there's the twisted game Yahweh played with Abraham and Isaac. This wicked game of parents murdering/sacrificing their own children is a self-interpreting, recurring theme. So wicked.
Then there's the twisted game Yahweh played with Abraham and Isaac. This wicked game of parents murdering/sacrificing their own children is a self-interpreting, recurring theme. So wicked.
Isn't that what the Trinity is about? A cycle, right?
It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
This is why I don't believe in belief. Either I know or don't know. One must be "taught" how (H-O-W) to rationalize this kind of sickness. Abraham almost muerdering Isaac is a twisted horror story.
See Pinocchio was so disobedient his dad went to look for him and Pinocchio had to save him. In a cave/whale in a flood/ocean. The blue lady then gave him the holy ghost. Jiminy Crickets.
It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
This is why I don't believe in belief. Either I know or don't know. One must be "taught" how (H-O-W) to rationalize this kind of sickness. Abraham almost muerdering Isaac is a twisted horror story.
Don't worry, you don't need religion to do any of those things, I am told.
Wicked happens for the symbolic and the skeptic alike.
Now, you can look at life, or lots of people can look at lots of lives . . . Come up with themes . . . Make stories that distil into other stories that relate to the majority without explicitly stating what is meant
Now, you can look at life, or lots of people can look at lots of lives . . . Come up with themes . . . Make stories that distil into other stories that relate to the majority without explicitly stating what is meant
One doesn't need to explicitly state a meaning that interprets itself in the original.
Not at all. Insanity can be determined by chemical imbalance. This is sad. But insanity by free will believing in self-proclaimed authority is stupid.
But all of experience is one hallucination. Our illusion of choice is pretermined by a set of possibilities. Such disfunctional authority is rooted in inevitable failures of systems billions of years old.
It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
If Lot and his daughters were living today they would be in prison, because incest is about as bad as it gets. One of the daughter’s offspring with Lot, was even made the head of the Moabites. Along with slavery, rape, and child sacrifice, add incest to the list of sins God allows. Where, oh where, is his mind?
But all of experience is one hallucination. Our illusion of choice is pretermined by a set of possibilities. Such disfunctional authority is rooted in inevitable failures of systems billions of years old.
Probably. Predetermined by a set of possibilities or causes? Authority is the 2nd weakest reason to believe anything, according to Peirce
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cman
As a father I want the best for my kids. That involves letting them think for themselves a lot, even if they are wrong. From my children's perspective I am both good and bad, depends on the day,
Bolshevik
Maybe you're not familiar with the opportunity cost of money? Wayworld's debt policy was silly. Anyway sacrifice is everywhere when you think about it. So is death. Everything dies. No except
Bolshevik
I'm trying to decode it. . . . I think mermaids are genderfluid. . .
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Stayed Too Long
Are you using Orientalisms as a way to explain and understand God’s actions, in requiring a ransom of death be paid to justify man sinning in the Garden of Eden? Not only demanding the death of his son, but burdening the rest of mankind with a sin nature they must carry with them for the rest of thie lives?
Are you saying if we fully grasped the full meaning of orientalisms (the 30,000 foot view), we would understand why God did what he did in the Garden of Eden, and then everything Raf suggested would be a moot point?
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Rocky
No, No and No.
I am saying we don't adequately understand the culture(s) in which these STORIES emerged. Your questions suggest the stories must be taken literally regardless of the cultural context. That's definitely not the point I was making. Thanks for asking.
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Allan
I'll put it back at you. IF you are a father (I don't know whether you are or not) and to have a beautiful, perfect child who would one day enable you to have an infinite number of same BUT you knew to have this you would also have a son (Adam) who would nearly screw things up...would you still go ahead and have that first child ?? I can only speak for myself and say YES !!
As for Rafs question of WHY place the tree of knowledge of good and evil smack bang in the 'midst' of the garden ? Well, that just magnifies man's inquisitive and disobedient nature...doesn't it. "Here Adam, here's a WHOLE lotta f...ing garden and panoramic sights for you to ENJOY...BUT don't wander over to that hole in the ground 250 miles to the west lest ye fall in and hurt yourself." Where do you think man's eventually going to go ??
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Raf
I love how he adds 250 miles to The Word.
Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.
Why did that tree exist in the first place?
And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?
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Allan
Neither does it say Adam was "in the midst" ? Adam could have been 251 miles away :)
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cman
My wife and I made 2 sons. I've told them not to do some things and they did it anyway. And I've told them to do some things that they didn't do.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. Wickedness. I would NEVER sacrifice my son for anything or anyone. Not for any ideology. Not for man-made theology. Not for self-interpreting stories written by superstitious ancient middle easterners. Not on a boat. Not with a goat.
Scapegoating - there's a self-interpreting orientalism for you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat
Vicarious redemption. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
This man-made theological paradigm has ancient Jewish and pagan roots in gloved hands.
Edited by Nathan_JrGlove fitting
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Stayed Too Long
I am sure every parent can relate to your experiences of raising children. Many times they do the opposite of what we wish they would.
However, we are discussing God, the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, creator. One would think he would have made us, from the beginning, perfect, not able to do stupid stuff. After all, that is exactly how life will be after the return, so it is within God’s grasp to make life perfect.
But, if we look at Genesis 6:5-7: God has done some pretty stupid stuff, and he even acknowledges the error of his ways. This crazy action by God, resulted in mankind being destroyed. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the lord said, “I will destroy man….”
If God had fore knowledge, he would have known he created very imperfect people. Why make people, knowing you will wipe them off the face of the earth, in the future?
Cman, would there ever be any evil thing your 2 sons could do, that you would wish they had never been born, and kill them?
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Bolshevik
Like Kill to Party? We could wade through that flood of emotions and row that party boat until something surfaces.
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Bolshevik
Unable to do stupid stuff?
As Father, "shh, don't tell your Mom" is a matter I take very seriously.
Don't get me started on the return.
F the return.
I don't wanna go.
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Nathan_Jr
Then there's the twisted game Yahweh played with Abraham and Isaac. This wicked game of parents murdering/sacrificing their own children is a self-interpreting, recurring theme. So wicked.
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Bolshevik
Isn't that what the Trinity is about? A cycle, right?
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Nathan_Jr
A cycle of mind-F's?
It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
This is why I don't believe in belief. Either I know or don't know. One must be "taught" how (H-O-W) to rationalize this kind of sickness. Abraham almost muerdering Isaac is a twisted horror story.
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Bolshevik
See Pinocchio was so disobedient his dad went to look for him and Pinocchio had to save him. In a cave/whale in a flood/ocean. The blue lady then gave him the holy ghost. Jiminy Crickets.
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Bolshevik
Don't worry, you don't need religion to do any of those things, I am told.
Wicked happens for the symbolic and the skeptic alike.
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Bolshevik
Now, you can look at life, or lots of people can look at lots of lives . . . Come up with themes . . . Make stories that distil into other stories that relate to the majority without explicitly stating what is meant
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Nathan_Jr
Right. But only religion and ideology can justify it. Religion causes otherwise sane and moral people to do stupid and wicked things.
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Bolshevik
Are you limiting insanity?
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Nathan_Jr
One doesn't need to explicitly state a meaning that interprets itself in the original.
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Bolshevik
You get a point. My head just exploded.
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Nathan_Jr
Not at all. Insanity can be determined by chemical imbalance. This is sad. But insanity by free will believing in self-proclaimed authority is stupid.
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Bolshevik
But all of experience is one hallucination. Our illusion of choice is pretermined by a set of possibilities. Such disfunctional authority is rooted in inevitable failures of systems billions of years old.
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Stayed Too Long
If Lot and his daughters were living today they would be in prison, because incest is about as bad as it gets. One of the daughter’s offspring with Lot, was even made the head of the Moabites. Along with slavery, rape, and child sacrifice, add incest to the list of sins God allows. Where, oh where, is his mind?
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Nathan_Jr
Probably. Predetermined by a set of possibilities or causes? Authority is the 2nd weakest reason to believe anything, according to Peirce
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