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the trinity: asset, or liability?


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5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I tend to think if you can't understand it or it's too big and mysterious to comprehend, you can't control it.  VPW, aware or not, needed something simpler.

Others have repeated The Word (VPW) takes the place of the absent Christ.

I remember being shocked in my mid twenties learning that the Christians think they have some sort of "relationship" with Jesus.  I think there's a reason VPW put the Jesus archetype into retirement at the right hand of God 

Others have said VPW needed to attack the Trinity to distinguish himself and draw battle lines.  I think he also needed to position himself as the center of attention, and a Trinity makes it more difficult.

The mysterious and incomprehensible as uncontrollable. Mmmmph!  Victor needed to MAKE it simpler to fit his shallow awareness and perception so he could then TEACH it. Hands in gloves. Mmmmph. 

 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
"Also" was written by a flat earther.
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quote: Maybe reread your paragraph.  You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum.  You start off with love and end with a threat.  The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.

Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).

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4 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The mysterious and incomprehensible as uncontrollable. Mmmmph!  Victor needed to MAKE it simpler to fit his shallow awareness and perception so he could then TEACH it. Hands in gloves. Mmmmph. 

 

Teach? Teach?  Teaching by repetitive rubbing.  A cyclic drubbing of a bait and switch to supply and demean.  An economy ego inflated through quantitative teasing.  A mathematical precision of terrible de-cision.  

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17 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Teach? Teach?  Teaching by repetitive rubbing.  A cyclic drubbing of a bait and switch to supply and demean.  An economy ego inflated through quantitative teasing.  A mathematical precision of terrible de-cision.  

I'll give you an A for this. But I beleeeve El will give you an A+. Mmmmph.

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57 minutes ago, johniam said:

quote: Maybe reread your paragraph.  You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum.  You start off with love and end with a threat.  The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.

Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).

The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time.  He definitely enjoyed it while he could.  Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.

Edited by Bolshevik
Grammar is a CHOICE
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2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time.  He definitely enjoyed while he could.  The he couldn't and it turned out fine.

And he never got tired. At least not so tired that he stopped believing and died. 

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On 6/18/2022 at 3:01 PM, johniam said:

(snip)

As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.

I found it fascinating, some time ago, to look over the Greek texts of those verses.  It called him the "man of sinS", plural.  I thought it was interesting that "man" there was "anthropos".  He will be "the son of ruin", a title used in reference to Judas Iscariot. He will sit in the HOLY OF HOLIES of God, that is, the temple's separated area consecrated to God and representing His Presence.  He will sit in the Holy of Holies of God Almighty. and "set forth that he is God." He will  CLAIM he's God.

 

Knowing all of that, why AUTOMATICALLY assume this will proceed DIRECTLY from the Trinity?   Don't you know other religions and philosophies, ones that claim either that you shall be as God or that you already are?   I'm suspicious that the use of "anthropos" there might suggest someone pushing a "perfectability of man" doctrine, where any man might potentially become A god.  Instead of something strictly Hindu, say, I'd look for some newer, fusion of Hindu and other doctrines.

Come on. The Greeks and Romans had ideas about men becoming gods- like Hercules/Heracles to the Greeks, and the Roman Emperor to the Romans (he got temples and everything.)   A guy who was a big deal was promoted to a god.   We know that the early church felt in competition with the Greco-Roman religion.   There were rumors that, when Julius Caesar died, the dead rose from their graves and walked around in the streets.   (Shakespeare mentions it in Hamlet, so it was well-known when he wrote that play.)   Some Christians decided to "compete", and, next thing you know, during the earthquake at the moment of Jesus' death, we got a reference to the dead rising, and that crudely inserted into the text in a jarring way.  (Things that supposedly take place weeks later are shoved into a single verse before they happened, and when they actually happened, NOBODY mentioned it.  Secular writers had no mention of it.  It's not in Acts, nor mentioned in books about saints and martyrs. 

Maybe you're worried about the wrong thing with the man of sinS, this General Practitioner of sinfulness.

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1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time.  He definitely enjoyed it while he could.  Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.

It was a parable. It was meant to make a specific point by analogy- in this case, it wasn't about the prodigal son, it was about the Forgiving Father!

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2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

The parable of the prodigal son bothered me for a long time.  He definitely enjoyed it while he could.  Then he couldn't and it turned out fine.

Keeping with the theme of this thread:
The prodigal son lived large and squandered his assets. His older brother was outraged and called him a liability.

In the Bourne movies a highly trained assassin-for-hire is called an asset. But hiring the asset means money is flowing out – so then, the asset is a liability?

A cult-leader might consider followers assets because they put money in his pocket on a regular basis. On the other hand, a cult-leader is a liability if his bad behavior is exposed…Note: exposing oneself is a whole other type of bad behavior. 
 

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17 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Keeping with the theme of this thread:
The prodigal son lived large and squandered his assets. His older brother was outraged and called him a liability.

In the Bourne movies a highly trained assassin-for-hire is called an asset. But hiring the asset means money is flowing out – so then, the asset is a liability?

A cult-leader might consider followers assets because they put money in his pocket on a regular basis. On the other hand, a cult-leader is a liability if his bad behavior is exposed…Note: exposing oneself is a whole other type of bad behavior. 
 

Well okay, Trinity in The Matrix was both a liability and an asset to Neo.  There was also a colorful choice.

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13 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Well okay, Trinity in The Matrix was both a liability and an asset to Neo.  There was also a colorful choice.

Okay, so there were these three Trinitarians who started a business working out of their home. It was a cottage industry.

Their stock tripled in value by the third quarter, and they became trillionaires.

Now they have their own office building.

trinity-industires-building-847x477.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Philippians 1:15-18

Is this something?

Good question.

Could be.

There’s different ways to look at it. When I first left TWI, I would read verses like this and figure well maybe TWI wasn’t all that bad – at least they’re preaching Christ. But over time - the more I analyzed TWI doctrine the more I realized that Christ is essentially absent in their ideology. 

So, I don’t think Paul was addressing pseudo-Christian cults here.

I think he may have been speaking to the issue of ambitious leaders who wanted to make a name for themselves. I get the idea they were still preaching Christ – which is the priority. 

Maybe this is getting into shades of gray with motives.

Setting aside the issue of TWI’s twisted doctrine for a moment: I knew a lot of good leaders in TWI – clergy who were salaried by TWI and they did a good job from the heart – they genuinely cared about people – you could tell. They truly were good shepherds but didn't know they worked for ravenous wolves. I also knew a few career-clergy. Salaried by TWI – and their service was all about building their reputations and selfish ambitions. 


15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Philippians 1

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On 6/18/2022 at 1:01 PM, johniam said:

Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified  2) was raised from the dead  3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead  4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead  5) he ascended into heaven  and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life.

This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil?

He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???

As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.

All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming".

In light of the doctrine of the Trinity, there’s also another way to analyze this “game plan”.  

Your statements are in bold red:

1.    “Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180.”  There are some misconceptions in your statement. One, you’re assuming you know what the devil wanted. Two, you’re ignoring the more obvious reason for what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ...it was his resurrection!

~ ~ ~ ~

2.    “Prior to the day of Pentecost… Since the day of Pentecost…” your time reference is close…but sorry, no cigar…From his birth to the cross, Jesus Christ’s divinity was not fully revealed. But AFTER the resurrection is a whole other story:

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”  But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”    John 20: 24 - 28     …and for good measure I refer Grease Spotters to   Bible Hub Commentaries: John 20:28      where at least 12 exegetical and expository commentaries concur that the natural meaning of Thomas’ exclamation “My Lord and My God” was a bold confession that his Lord was also his God.  see also:    The divinity of Christ in the Gospels       and     Jesus’ Divinity in the Gospels

~ ~ ~ ~


3.    It seems logical  that the devil might want to imitate the “resurrection factor” because that is what changed people’s perception of Jesus Christ (see point 2) . In    Revelation 13   that appears to be the devil’s game plan:
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

 

Most commentaries seem to be in agreement that the "Satanic trinity" is:

  • Satan himself
  • A man called Antichrist
  • A figure called The False Prophet

see also: 

Bible.org: Satan's trinity

Bible Helps: Satanic trinity in final conflict

Got Questions.org: what is the unholy trinity in the end times?

 

In my humble opinion, there is a literary trinity of sorts   with  John 14    , John 15   , and  John 16   …three concentrated and consecrated chapters that are like a doctrine of the Christian life…unfolding in the outworking of the Holy Trinity.


Conclusion:  sometime in the future, the devil   plagiarizes   :mooner:     the Trinity, the resurrection, and with lying signs and wonders fools a lot of people. I tend to think a believer submitting to the outworking of the Holy Trinity would have an advantage in the end times – since yielding to God’s purpose, ways and means would put one on God’s side...He will help believers discern the counterfeit unholy trinity ...and He will also strengthen them for the battles ahead…to remain neutral in the fight is to lose! ...so to circle back to answering the question in the thread title: The Holy Trinity is an asset if you’re on Team Holy Trinity…the unholy trinity is a liability if you’re on Team 3 Bad Amigos. 

Edited by T-Bone
T-Bone's trinity: my dumb ideas, the editor, the post - aka Me, Myself, and I
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quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.

2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!

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Ok I’ll post.  The trinity was an asset to VP as it is a mainstream doctrine that is not clearly defined, and the mystery imagery accepted on faith by many denominations is confusing.

As such this represented a main area to draw followers away from their churches in the 60s as opposed to taking his classes and keeping their loyalty to their home churches.

By taking a hard line stance on the trinity and dead alive they could deepen that into conspiracy theory in the advanced class and plant seeds of doubt by teaching that all major heads of denominations are born of the seed of the serpent.

That proved to be enough to tear people away from their churches.  Attack the trinity, isolate students on the farm for some brainwashing, get them to believe they are some kind of Star Wars rebel alliance fighting the evil Empire.  That proved to be enough to extract people from the Christian brethren in their churches and give up their money and allegiance to follow the pied piper Wierwille into a life of meaning moving the Word over the World.

I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.

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46 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Ok I’ll post.  The trinity was an asset to VP as it is a mainstream doctrine that is not clearly defined, and the mystery imagery accepted on faith by many denominations is confusing.

As such this represented a main area to draw followers away from their churches in the 60s as opposed to taking his classes and keeping their loyalty to their home churches.

By taking a hard line stance on the trinity and dead alive they could deepen that into conspiracy theory in the advanced class and plant seeds of doubt by teaching that all major heads of denominations are born of the seed of the serpent.

That proved to be enough to tear people away from their churches.  Attack the trinity, isolate students on the farm for some brainwashing, get them to believe they are some kind of Star Wars rebel alliance fighting the evil Empire.  That proved to be enough to extract people from the Christian brethren in their churches and give up their money and allegiance to follow the pied piper Wierwille into a life of meaning moving the Word over the World.

I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.

 

I see this and think VPW was more a scavenger than a predator.  The other groups failed to fill their role, and did not protect their own.  In another context he would have not had success.

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45 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I would say for VP the trinity was a major asset in selling the long con.

"I have secret knowledge that others don't"......VPW (sort of)

 

This approach is pretty standard fare for cults, in general.

 

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6 hours ago, johniam said:

quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.

2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!

Hey, I don’t mean to be snarky, Johniam – but when I asked for chapter and verse, I assumed you would offer a passage that actually supports your point.


If you click on this hyperlink >    II Corinthians 2:11       you’ll see many versions use the word “schemes” instead of “devices”. To spare you the atrocity of my verbosity :rolleyes:   I’m not going to get into the Greek - and since the English words convey something close to the same idea  I’ll just expand on these two  English words - NEITHER of which supports YOUR idea that we know what Satan WANTS…what MOTIVATED him…his MOTIVES…“Device” – gadget, an explosive weapon, a plan, a method, a design…“Scheme” – strategy, program, plan, plot, conspire, a combination of elements that are connected, adjusted, and integrated by design.

 

I love thriller movies where the investigation or court proceedings get into the trinity-of-pointing-fingers award:   means, motive and opportunity. See     articles in  Psychology Today: Means, Motive, and Opportunity   ,  City Security Magazine: Cyber security: motive, method, opportunity    and    Criminal Justice 101: Means, Motive, and Opportunity      . But I will grant you this - your citation of II Cor. 2:11 would best be used to show MEANS…an action, system, or process, financial resources – but NOT   MOTIVE

 

If I had to make a case for Satan's  MOTIVE, I’d use something like Isaiah 14: 12 -14     - note willful intent is mentioned five times in the following:

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;     I will make myself like the Most High.”       I think that’s pretty good evidence to prove MOTIVE. If I may beg the court’s indulgence, I’d like to revisit my previous post >  here      the devil  plagiarizing  the Trinity, the resurrection, the use of lying signs and wonders    as the MEANS to make himself like the Most High.

 

Jesus may have referenced Isaiah 14: 12, when he said in    Luke 10:18    I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven     and   Revelation 12  may also allude to that catastrophic event  -   “Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

 

~ ~ ~ ~


Now about your statement “The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!”

… Geez what a pontificating thing to say! Let’s break that down with more questions:

1.    HOW do YOU know the reason?
2.    HOW do YOU know what I believe and don’t believe?
3.    WHEN did I ever make reference to “us lowly Christians”?
4.    WHAT gave YOU the impression that I think He’s God?
5.    HOW do YOU know what I think?

If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread >  here  – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same  - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.”  Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s  YOUR   problem and  NOT  mine

 


And as far as the greater works of  John 14:12   I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in  Acts 1:8.
 

Edited by T-Bone
I think my editor is ignorant of his own devices :)
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On 6/18/2022 at 9:47 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

Is there a trinity of moderators? Do they work together as one? Or are they pros - distinctly separate, yet not the same?

We are not together. We hardly see each other.

And we are most certainly distinctly independent.

We're down to two active moderators [modgellan and myself]. I am Raf. I know it's confusing, but whether I post as Raf or modcat5 now depends almost ENTIRELY on which device I'm using. If it's Raf, I'm using my laptop. If it's Modcat5, I'm using my phone.

Modgellan is safely anonymous.

Pawtucket still runs the show and pays the bills and can run us out of town on a whim.

GreasyTech, who has mod authority, is always on call to fix things up when the site goes down.

So that makes 4 of us. 

Modgellan and I do not have a system. We check on reports when we check on them; whoever logs in first. He moved this thread. I just saw it. Excellent, thoughtful work by everyone.

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5 hours ago, modcat5 said:

We are not together. We hardly see each other.

And we are most certainly distinctly independent.

We're down to two active moderators [modgellan and myself]. I am Raf. I know it's confusing, but whether I post as Raf or modcat5 now depends almost ENTIRELY on which device I'm using. If it's Raf, I'm using my laptop. If it's Modcat5, I'm using my phone.

Modgellan is safely anonymous.

Pawtucket still runs the show and pays the bills and can run us out of town on a whim.

GreasyTech, who has mod authority, is always on call to fix things up when the site goes down.

So that makes 4 of us. 

Modgellan and I do not have a system. We check on reports when we check on them; whoever logs in first. He moved this thread. I just saw it. Excellent, thoughtful work by everyone.

Thanks, Raf. For everything.

it's not confusing at all. It's not three like the trinity, but four like the crucified.

I get it. It fits. Like a hand in a glove. 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
You don't need to know about hermeneutics or exegesis, victor doesn't, either.
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