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the trinity: asset, or liability?


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Victor Weirwille made a mistake with his book title of: "Jesus Christ Is Not God". But his book was at least OK. However, a better book on this subject was written by John Lynn, John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser and they gave it a better title of "One God & One Lord". I have a copy of this book and have read it. I even read some of the content of this book to Christians that were involved with the Catholic church and they agreed with the book content and even liked it. 

In addition, I explained this concept to an offshoot of the Roman Catholic church that call themselves the Nativity of Christ Greek Orthodox Church. I simply say that Jesus Christ is like God, but not literally God, he literally is the Son of God, while being seated at the right hand of God his Father. God his Father has delegated all authority under Jesus Christ his Son for the salvation of humanity. They agree with this. Also I explain that Jesus Christ in his earthly life showed his humility, while relating himself to common humanity by calling himself the "Son of Man", much more than calling himself the "Son of God". Yet common people and Christ's followers called Him the "Son of God" much more than they called him the "Son of Man". 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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T-Bonè,

Please be aware that I wasn't seeking to argue with you. It's my fault that it looks like I was.

I was merely using your post as a springboard for my own thoughts on the subject, which are not scholarly or vetted. Just my thoughts.

I presumed you know full well that the writing of the epistles preceded the writing of the gospels. My point was that I believe the Christology of the epistles circulated more broadly than any biography of Jesus until the gospels were written.

I hold myself responsible for any lack of clarity on that point.

Raf.

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Hi Modcat5 / Raf,

no harm done.

,matter of fact I didn't think you were arguing with me - I took it as useful feedback that what I said could be misconstrued...I wish I could be as articulate as you when it comes to talking about Bible stuff - in case you don't realize it I used the latter part of your comments as a springboard for other stuff I wanted to share anyway.

love & peace!

T-Bone

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8 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Dr. DiMattei is good. It's been a while since I've read any of this.

Are you familiar with the Assyriologist, Dr. Joshua Bowen?

I don't think I have, I see he is a YouTuber.  

Did you happen to read The Two Babylons?  Twi had that and also a shorter book like it. . . Escapes my memory. . . 

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I don't see either book in the online bookstore.  

Anti-Catholic books I think.  Helped with the whole anti-Trinity stuff in TWI.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-two-babylons-or-the-papal-worship-proved-to-be-the-worship-of-nimrod-and-his-wife_alexander-hislop/354963/#idiq=2952469&edition=4884369

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Alexander Hislop wrote "THE Two Babylons." That was a long time ago, and was written to scholarly types, who were thought to be the only people who'd care about the contents.  (That was a LONG time ago, and we've come a LONG way since then.)   It's now in the public domain.  (That was a long time ago.)  

Ralph Woodrow read Hislop's book.  He attempted to make a book with similar content that was a lot more readable and user-friendly, using Hislop's book as a guide.   RW EXTENSIVELY end-note ALL his references to Hislop's book.   This did nothing to make the book less user-friendly,  but completely refutes the claim that, if vpw had properly footnoted or end-noted his books, that it would have been a distraction or taken away from his books.  (Most people reading RW's book weren't really aware of the end-noting unless looking for it, but it was very useful for anyone looking to follow up on the contents.)

One problem was, Alexander Hislop's book was loaded with errors.  That meant that RW's book was loaded with errors.  RW got a lot of feedback, some of it with extensive documentation.   You may notice that "Babylon-Mystery Religion" is out of print.   RW  chose, instead, to write a book addressing all the problems with Hislop's  "The Two Babylons" and RW's  "Babylon Mystery Religion"  and called it "The Babylon Connection?"   That should be in print now. 

"The Two Babylons" is a hard read even if it's in the public domain, because it was a product of its time. Authors writing at that time wrote EXCLUSIVELY to the grad students and PhDs,  and not to the public.  (On these subjects, at any rate- that's why they quote Latin and expect the readers to all know what they said.)      "Babylon Mystery Religion" was a nice read for protestant Christians, especially those like vpw who had an axe to grind against the RCC (not necessarily an undeserved issue.)     "The Babylon Connection"" probably isn't as popular because it's not fodder for fuel for flamewars, and nobody likes to consider their previous positions were wrong, their previous beliefs were wrong.  

 

Naturally, twi had nothing to do with any of those books except to carry them in their bookstore- they certainly didn't carry Woodrow's later book. 

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I believe that there are false accusations and assumptions against Catholics.   One example:   heard a preacher say that praying the 'hail Mary' was a form of Satan worship!     I told him that I thought he could be falsely accusing Catholics of doing something they aren't.   Hope that made him think about his judgment but I don't know.    I think Babylon Mystery Religion was like that... attributed false assumptions to folks they do not know, do not talk to, do not befriend.   I observed later that Catholics have their own interpretation of dogmas that may have (and likely does have) nothing to do with and even opposite what non-believers in that religion say they do. 

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13 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

In addition, I explained this concept to an offshoot of the Roman Catholic church that call themselves the Nativity of Christ Greek Orthodox Church

Hi Mark,

Is the Greek Orthodox Church an offshoot of the RCC??

The Greek/Eastern Orthdox Church members I know would never identify their church as an offshoot, especially an offshoot of the Roman Catholic Church. I may be misremembering the European History classes of my youth, but I'm pretty sure Greek/Eastern Orthodox is not an offshoot, derivative, nor sect of the Roman Catholic Church.

I mean we're talking ducks and diamonds here, but your sentence jumped out at me. Had to ask.

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The Eastern Orthodox Church (including the Greek Orthodox Church)  claims a history as old as the RCC, which claims a history back to the day of Pentecost. 

Just as churches formed in Western Europe and ended up looking towards Rome for leadership, there were churches that formed in Greece,  and other countries, who ended up looking towards Byzantium/Constantinople for "leadership" (not in the absolute sense of the Pope.)     So, Orthodoxy belongs to both the RCC and Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Greek Orthodox Church is part of the EOC.   

Although there were larger numbers of RCC than EOC,  the Protestant Reformation split the West in a way the East was NOT split, and things have developed differently in both "high church" organizations (RCC and EOC.)  

So, technically, no, the EOC is not a sect, offshoot, or derivative of the RCC.  They comprise a sibling that has developed alongside the RCC, and their name recognition in, say, the US has increased greatly over the last 50 years, where it had previously been almost unknown. 

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2 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

The Eastern Orthodox Church (including the Greek Orthodox Church)  claims a history as old as the RCC, which claims a history back to the day of Pentecost. 

Just as churches formed in Western Europe and ended up looking towards Rome for leadership, there were churches that formed in Greece,  and other countries, who ended up looking towards Byzantium/Constantinople for "leadership" (not in the absolute sense of the Pope.)     So, Orthodoxy belongs to both the RCC and Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Greek Orthodox Church is part of the EOC.   

Although there were larger numbers of RCC than EOC,  the Protestant Reformation split the West in a way the East was NOT split, and things have developed differently in both "high church" organizations (RCC and EOC.)  

So, technically, no, the EOC is not a sect, offshoot, or derivative of the RCC.  They comprise a sibling that has developed alongside the RCC, and their name recognition in, say, the US has increased greatly over the last 50 years, where it had previously been almost unknown. 

Right. It was all one Orthodox Church until the Great Schism of 1054. The split resulted in the RCC and the EOC. If memory serves. 

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The split could be seen as a continuation of Diocletian's effort after the crisis of the 3rd century.  Charles Martel later stopped the Muslim expansion in Western Europe.  His son Pepin reorganized Italy, giving the Pope more legitimacy.  Pepin's son Charlemagne had himself coronated by the Pope to take on a sort of rebirth of the Western Roman Empire.  He nearly married a Byzantine Empress.  That would have been huge.   Otherwise, there's the birth of The West.

Ducks lay diamonds, Geese lay gold, Swans lay?

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7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Hi Mark,

Is the Greek Orthodox Church an offshoot of the RCC??

The Greek/Eastern Orthdox Church members I know would never identify their church as an offshoot, especially an offshoot of the Roman Catholic Church. I may be misremembering the European History classes of my youth, but I'm pretty sure Greek/Eastern Orthodox is not an offshoot, derivative, nor sect of the Roman Catholic Church.

I mean we're talking ducks and diamonds here, but your sentence jumped out at me. Had to ask.

That simply depends on the definition of offshoot. If you do not like that word. Another word can be used, for example separated.  They historically were part of the Roman Catholic church, but they separated from this denomination and started another denomination. Regarding the word trinity, which is the primary topic of this forum. They do use the word trinity in their teachings. Here is a link with a web page that shows some of their teachings:    https://www.nativityofchrist.org/our-faith-2/teachings/

Regarding the subject of trinity. Here are a few sentences on this subject copied from the above link.

Quote

While the inner Being of God always remains unknown and unapproachable, God has manifested Himself to us; and the Church has experienced Him as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is central to the Orthodox Faith, is not a result of pious speculation, but of the overwhelming experience of God. The doctrine affirms that there is only One God, in whom there are three distinct Persons. In other words, when we encounter the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, we are truly experiencing contact with God. While the Holy Trinity is a mystery which can never be fully comprehended, Orthodoxy believes that we can truly participate in the Trinity through the life of the Church, especially through our celebration of the Eucharist and the Sacraments, as well as the non-sacramental services.

One of the reasons that this church separated from the Roman Catholic Church is that they did and do not believe that the Pope should have all authority, while teaching everything. 

Regarding the history of the separation of the Orthodox Church from the Roman Catholic Church. Here is a link for this. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_relations

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

That simply depends on the definition of offshoot. If you do not like that word. Another word can be used, for example separated.  They historically were part of the Roman Catholic church, but they separated from this denomination and started another denomination. Regarding the word trinity, which is the primary topic of this forum. They do use the word trinity in their teachings. Here is a link with a web page that shows some of their teachings:    https://www.nativityofchrist.org/our-faith-2/teachings/

Regarding the subject of trinity. Here are a few sentences on this subject copied from the above link.

One of the reasons that this church separated from the Roman Catholic Church is that they did and do not believe that the Pope should have all authority, while teaching everything. 

Regarding the history of the separation of the Orthodox Church from the Roman Catholic Church. Here is a link for this. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_relations

Thanks, Mark. The separation between the Latin and Greek churches happened so long ago, it seems redundant or superfluous to even mention it. It's either the RCC or the Orthodox Church.

I guess I was interested in the etymology of the term Catholic and when the Church self-identified that way.. I probably failed to articulate that, but I was able to scratch my itch for granularity here: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

It's fascinating to me how diverse the Church has been since the very beginning. Everyone believes that they themselves are orthodox and everyone else is heterodox. Of course, this is just not possible, because everyone can't be right. So maybe everyone is wrong.

I don't identify as Trinitarian or Unitarian, but I find the contemplation of both ideas to be intellectually stimulating and spiritually rewarding. I'm only dogmatic about not being dogmatic.

 

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29 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I don't identify as Trinitarian or Unitarian, but I find the contemplation of both ideas to be intellectually stimulating and spiritually rewarding. I'm only dogmatic about not being dogmatic.

Regarding the subject of dogmatic, perhaps I am only dogmatic, when I meet trained dogs who wag their tails and do not growl or bark. Perhaps, I could be considered dogmatic only when I meet friendly dogs while petting them. Was I successful in getting you to laugh???

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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35 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Regarding the subject of dogmatic, perhaps I am only dogmatic, when I meet trained dogs who wag their tails and do not growl or bark. Perhaps, I could be considered dogmatic only when I meet friendly dogs while petting them. Was I successful in getting you to laugh???

No. But that's ok.


Though I very much appreciate dark humor, dogmatism is too dark, even for me. I find it physically repulsive; it causes inflammation in my brain and my heart and makes me sick. 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
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4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

The split could be seen as a continuation of Diocletian's effort after the crisis of the 3rd century.  Charles Martel later stopped the Muslim expansion in Western Europe.  His son Pepin reorganized Italy, giving the Pope more legitimacy.  Pepin's son Charlemagne had himself coronated by the Pope to take on a sort of rebirth of the Western Roman Empire.  He nearly married a Byzantine Empress.  That would have been huge.   Otherwise, there's the birth of The West.

Ducks lay diamonds, Geese lay gold,   Swans   lay?

                                                                  TV  dinners

E=&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 

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22 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

                                                                  TV  dinners

E=&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 

Winner winner!!!

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2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

No. But that's ok.


Though I very much appreciate dark humor, dogmatism is too dark, even for me. I find it physically repulsive; it causes inflammation in my brain and my heart and makes me sick. 

Congratulations, for your ability to get me to laugh. Perhaps you are a humor genius and I am not. 

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2 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Congratulations, for your ability to get me to laugh. Perhaps you are a humor genius and I am not. 

Not even trying to make anyone laugh. I'm being dead serious.

But if anything is funny, it's because it's true.

Edited by Nathan_Jr
The music coordinator said it, I believe it, that settles it
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quote So, it’s gone from About the Way forum to doctrinal forum…now we need a Kool-Aid testimonial forum…whatever.
it’s hilarious how much diehard-wierwille-fans keep pushing that idle idol. There’s no use in logical debate of doctrine and Scripture interpretation with them cuz if wierwille said it – they believe it – that settles it.

I did not make even ONE reference to VP in the first post on this thread nor the 2nd. You're just going to see what you want to see. Typical.

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19 minutes ago, johniam said:

You're just going to see what you want to see. Typical.

Very much human nature. Isn't that how the mind works

This phenomenon, called motivated perception, has been explored in psychological research for decades. Indeed, the world as we conceive it in our awareness is not exactly an accurate representation of what it truly is. Our perception is often biased, selective, and malleable.

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5 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Very much human nature. Isn't that how the mind works

This phenomenon, called motivated perception, has been explored in psychological research for decades. Indeed, the world as we conceive it in our awareness is not exactly an accurate representation of what it truly is. Our perception is often biased, selective, and malleable.

So, if persuasion is the objective of one's writing, knowing what the audience wants to see and making one's case accordingly would seem to be a reasonable approach. Yes? No?

 

Edited by Rocky
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