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The Absent Christ?


OldSkool
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9 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Mike, you are using classic trollng methods to suck up to a moderator and try and convert them to your way of thinking and position. You showed that by going to another thread to assume some type of victory because Raf is involved? My Lord, Raf has done some of the best work expsosing the error in wierwille's doctrines. Im glad he decided to participate.

I'll be watching. 

I think every point that could be covered was covered.

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Just now, Mike said:

I'll be watching. 

I think every point that could be covered was covered.

Obviously not if it's still under discussion...more like every point that you are willing to consider has been covered.

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15 hours ago, Raf said:

I think we all agree that Jesus is physically absent but spiritually present. The problem is how twi’s statement concerning the "absent Christ" becomes practical error.

I've seen you guys discussing this "absent Christ" issue for years now, and I honestly don't even remember the various things I've said about it. Is it possible, in my desire to find fault with VPW, that I hopped on the "how dare he say Christ is absent" bandwagon? It would have been easy. CES (STFI, John Lynn, Schoenheit, et al) criticized the "absent Christ" doctrine without overly criticizing Wierwille. 

 

A bandwagon refers to an object or activity that fosters a widespread zeal or passion but doesn’t have enough sustenance to sustain it for very long.  However, what does have sustenance on this thread is how the statement itself (the word takes the place of the absent Christ) cunningly assisted in building a harmful and cult-like organization which remains to this day. (imho) Here is why I say this:

“the word”

= the rightly divided word = twi since it’s the only place that has it according to vp himself

 

“takes the place”

= a specific position or point in space = becomes the focus

 

“of the absent Christ”

= not presently in place

In other words, with Christ being absent, there is a void and we, twi with the rightly divided word, fill that void.  

The point to all the discussion on this thread is that THERE IS NO VOID FOR THEM TO FILL with their in their ungodly ways because Christ lives in us.

I know I've recently said some variation of the following, and I stand by it:

To some extent, Christ MUST be absent, or anticipating his return would be rather pointless. At the last supper, Jesus says do this "in remembrance" of me. You don't "remember" something that's present. You recognize it. You acknowledge it. You don't remember it. Christ must in some way be absent.

 Yes, we do anticipate his return in his glorified body (which we will be able to see) because at that time he will have a specific new and glorious duty to perform.

When Jesus says to do this “in remembrance” of me, isn’t the bread in reference to his body which will soon be broken, and the wine in reference to his blood which will soon be shed – in other words, his crucifixion?  I don’t see how the use of the word “remembrance,” in the context of this one-time event, can then be cited as a way to say Christ is no longer present.    

 

But let's go a little further (as I believe some of you have). The Bible does not speak of a "return" of Christ, or a "second coming." The word translated "coming" is better translated "presence," as in, it's his presence, not his return, that is the hope of the Christian. Now you may say, same thing. And I may agree, except God (or Paul, or whoever chose the word paraousia) has a purpose for everything he says... So if your hope is in his return (Biblically, his presence), then the current state of affairs must necessarily imply, in some manner, his absence.

So I don't think the "absent Christ" is unBiblical at all. It's the present Christ that needs defending, for if he is currently present, how can his presence be your hope? 

And yes, I understand there are ways in which he is present as well. They've been articulated effectively. The problem, as I see it, is this need to have one answer be correct and the other incorrect, when the Bible clearly teaches both.

I think “yes” if one means he is physically absent at the same time as being spiritually present.  This truth applies to both of your paragraphs above concerning the parousia and our hope because while he is spiritually present now, at that time he will be physically present as well.

He is present with us by way of (the H)holy (S)spirit [I am not taking sides on that one]. He is present with us in prayer. He is the Word, and as such is present where his word is taught. 

I would say that depends on how his word is being taught. The way twi teaches the great principle, I don’t see Christ’s words being much in there. Twi can say all these things, but how does just saying them mean anything if they don’t also teach the importance of having a personal relationship.  Did you think twi did this?

"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is a problematic statement, but not because it posits an absent Christ. The Bible posits an absent Christ. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is problematic because it doesn't. At least not completely. No one thing takes the place of the absent Christ. But all these things together do. The Word. The spirit. Fellowship. Prayer. Love. Mercy. The manifestation of the spirit. The fruitage of the spirit. YOU. YOU take the place of the absent Christ.

The only way we can do or have all these great things is because Christ is present – he actually lives in us. Even though this is by way of holy spirit, if someone is living in your house, that person is technically present. You can even converse with each other. Every one of these things we have and do is only because we are in union with him (the vine – branch thing). 

Isn't God wonderful?  Yes – couldn’t agree with you more!

Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own.   A question though:  Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?

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20 hours ago, Raf said:

I'd like to reboot the thread, maybe make it a little less Mikish and a little more what were we talking about again?

 

No longer having a stake in the "rightly-divided" answer opens up various avenues of exploration.

I've seen you guys discussing this "absent Christ" issue for years now, and I honestly don't even remember the various things I've said about it. Is it possible, in my desire to find fault with VPW, that I hopped on the "how dare he say Christ is absent" bandwagon? It would have been easy. CES (STFI, John Lynn, Schoenheit, et al) criticized the "absent Christ" doctrine without overly criticizing Wierwille. 

I know I've recently said some variation of the following, and I stand by it:

To some extent, Christ MUST be absent, or anticipating his return would be rather pointless. At the last supper, Jesus says do this "in remembrance" of me. You don't "remember" something that's present. You recognize it. You acknowledge it. You don't remember it. Christ must in some way be absent.

But let's go a little further (as I believe some of you have). The Bible does not speak of a "return" of Christ, or a "second coming." The word translated "coming" is better translated "presence," as in, it's his presence, not his return, that is the hope of the Christian. Now you may say, same thing. And I may agree, except God (or Paul, or whoever chose the word paraousia) has a purpose for everything he says... So if your hope is in his return (Biblically, his presence), then the current state of affairs must necessarily imply, in some manner, his absence.

So I don't think the "absent Christ" is unBiblical at all. It's the present Christ that needs defending, for if he is currently present, how can his presence be your hope? 

And yes, I understand there are ways in which he is present as well. They've been articulated effectively. The problem, as I see it, is this need to have one answer be correct and the other incorrect, when the Bible clearly teaches both.

He is present with us by way of (the H)holy (S)spirit [I am not taking sides on that one]. He is present with us in prayer. He is the Word, and as such is present where his word is taught. 

"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is a problematic statement, but not because it posits an absent Christ. The Bible posits an absent Christ. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is problematic because it doesn't. At least not completely. No one thing takes the place of the absent Christ. But all these things together do. The Word. The spirit. Fellowship. Prayer. Love. Mercy. The manifestation of the spirit. The fruitage of the spirit. YOU. YOU take the place of the absent Christ.

Isn't God wonderful? 

Hey Raf,

Wow you post here still?  Cool good to hear some thoughts.

I mean the nature of the ascension ensures there is plenty of physical record of Christ becoming slowly absent.

The contention comes in with the relative absence or presence of his nature in those who propose to be experts in his words.

A couple millennium past his physical presence and plenty of fools construct mountains of nonsense with his words to ensure the slavery of others and the ease of their own lives.

Thus making Christ absent in every sense of the word. Physically, mentally, spiritually, morally.

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This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi.  When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him.  It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships.  This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God.  It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment. 

I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.

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32 minutes ago, Charity said:

This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi.  When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him.  It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships.  This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God.  It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment. 

I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.

I understand. I was a way corps trained class salesman. I have since asked for forgiveness.

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3 hours ago, Mike said:

 

We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.

He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.

What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.

This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.

 

2 hours ago, So_crates said:

You got this backwards. YOU were the one arguing for the absent Christ. The others were arguing for a personal relationship.

So, what YOU think Saint Vic taught about the absent Christ is wrong. YOU were thinking of oral tradition, which is woefully in error.

Just to keep the record straight.

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31 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I understand. I was a way corps trained class salesman. I have since asked for forgiveness.

Thanks for understand OldSkool.  I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi.  I can count myself as being one of them.  I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.

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One more thing...

I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read.  I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb.  It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son.  So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book.  However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him.  Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known. 

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58 minutes ago, Charity said:

One more thing...

I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read.  I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb.  It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son.  So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book.  However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him.  Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known. 

FYI,

although the book says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover, he wrote an intro at most, and the research dept wrote everything of substance there.   For a few books (Promised Seed, Passover), that was the pattern.   For earlier books, either they were compilations of plagiarism of others (The Orange Book and the White Book)  or transcriptions of teachings which may have been plagiarized from others (the Blue Book et al.) 

So, I'd expect  JCOP and/or JCOPS to bless you more than other twi books despite "by vpw" on the cover.  In case you were wondering why "his" writing style varies so heavily among books "he wrote". 

Naturally, some people insist that it was a good idea that he plagiarized some books, and a good idea he slapped his name on the books written by the Research Dept- even saying that's standard policy somewhere (not outside of twi, actually.) 

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18 hours ago, WordWolf said:

FYI,

although the book says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover, he wrote an intro at most, and the research dept wrote everything of substance there.   For a few books (Promised Seed, Passover), that was the pattern.   For earlier books, either they were compilations of plagiarism of others (The Orange Book and the White Book)  or transcriptions of teachings which may have been plagiarized from others (the Blue Book et al.) 

So, I'd expect  JCOP and/or JCOPS to bless you more than other twi books despite "by vpw" on the cover.  In case you were wondering why "his" writing style varies so heavily among books "he wrote". 

Naturally, some people insist that it was a good idea that he plagiarized some books, and a good idea he slapped his name on the books written by the Research Dept- even saying that's standard policy somewhere (not outside of twi, actually.) 

 

17 hours ago, cman said:

Yes to that WordWolf. 

Walter Cummins did the majority of the work and content of those two books. He has a site, but I'm not sure what he's doing these days.

Continuing in the Scriptures

 

I always wondered who actually wrote those books and it was always obvious to me that it wasnt St Vic. I have wondered about the differences in writing styles before I learned of his plagarism exploits back in the early 2000s. But I never knew who authored those two works and still hold them in high regard. Those two books Ive never combed through for errors like I did the ones that vic obviously copied and altered somewhat. Im sure there are points to reconsider in those books but I feel overall they are somehwhat solid considering they have vicsters name on them.

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42 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

 I always wondered who actually wrote those books and it was always obvious to me that it wasnt St Vic. I have wondered about the differences in writing styles before I learned of his plagarism exploits back in the early 2000s. But I never knew who authored those two works and still hold them in high regard. Those two books Ive never combed through for errors like I did the ones that vic obviously copied and altered somewhat. Im sure there are points to reconsider in those books but I feel overall they are somehwhat solid considering they have vicsters name on them.

In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.

Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously.  Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.

 


 

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30 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.

Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously.  Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.

 


 

Well, yeah, theres that. Its been about 15 years since I read them so ... yeah...figures...:jump:

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2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.

Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously.  Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.

 


 

Did you inquire from others in the TWIG about this?

I'm picturing blank stares, avoidance of eye contact, and efforts to pretend the question was never asked or heard.

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18 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Did you inquire from others in the TWIG about this?

I'm picturing blank stares, avoidance of eye contact, and efforts to pretend the question was never asked or heard.

Usually, what you picture would be the actual response. The other pat responses were: I’m just trying to rightly divide the word of truth…or… Well, I’ve never been asked that question (exasperated sigh).

When I read that passage about the crowing cocks, it was in the fellowship house after the tithe was collected. I was so floored, so astonished, so dumbfounded by the stupidity, I couldn’t speak. I froze.

It was horrifying to me the credulousness of these people - that they would believe anything, ANYTHING, that was attributed to victor paul wierwille. 

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3 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Usually, what you picture would be the actual response. The other pat responses were: I’m just trying to rightly divide the word of truth…or… Well, I’ve never been asked that question (exasperated sigh).

When I read that passage about the crowing cocks, it was in the fellowship house after the tithe was collected. I was so floored, so astonished, so dumbfounded by the stupidity, I couldn’t speak. I froze.

It was horrifying to me the credulousness of these people - that they would believe anything, ANYTHING, that was attributed to victor paul wierwille. 

I wonder what that does to a person . . . If you're surrounded by non-responses over and over and over. . . . Do our minds develop in the absence of other people?

I guess The Word takes the place of the absent minds.

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2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

When you say The Word, you mean….?

 

The Way International, VPW, a shared fantasy between all participants 

PFAL and the collaterals as opposed to The Bible.  

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9 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The Way International, VPW, a shared fantasy between all participants 

PFAL and the collaterals as opposed to The Bible.  

So…

TWI+VPW+SharedFantasy+PFAL+Collaterals = The Word

I like it. Makes sense in context.
 

HOWEVER…

That’s not Mike’s formula. His is:

YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible  = The Word

 

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4 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

So…

TWI+VPW+SharedFantasy+PFAL+Collaterals = The Word

I like it. Makes sense in context.
 

HOWEVER…

That’s not Mike’s formula. His is:

YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible  = The Word

 

Both equations have The Word.  So we can equate them.  

And with each variable you can make a new function.  So we can can modify this so the fun never ends.

 

But I would reduce it to Shared Fantasy, the term from Sam Vaknin, the self proclaimed narcissist expert.  

 

 

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