Just for the record, and not because I side with Mike, by definition I disagree with your claim, brother, that there's nothing good in PFLAP.
It would be extremely difficult to sell the concept if it was ALL bad. However, I agree with you that overall, PFLAP is not good. Too much wrong with it.
You said it before I said it.
There are some good things in PFAL, but that's because they were pinched from someone who'd put thought in, and who may himself have been inspired by God.
Also some good things in the RHST part - for the same reason.
The trouble is trying to sort out the truth from the fanciful, reconciling the conflicting messages and versions of whatever "the class" says, etc. Not being able to sort out truth from - from what isn't - is confusing and distracting. It's a poisoned apple (from a poisoned tree). Not all of the apple is poisoned, but you don't know which bits are and which bits are safe to eat. Best thing to do is discard the lot.
Heck, for all I know, the confusing bits were deliberate - to confuse, to distract, from the other garbage that we were supposed to take in subliminally. If you're still trying to reconcile "all without exception" with "all with (or without) distinction," you're missing some other perhaps more serious junk.
Heck, for all I know, the confusing bits were deliberate - to confuse, to distract, from the other garbage that we were supposed to take in subliminally.
Usually liars MO is to add extraneous details to their stories for two reasons:
--too many details confuse the brain shutting off critical thinking.
--to add the appearance of credibility to their lies.
Edited by So_crates To, with Nathan_Jr's help editing, clarify a point.
wierwille presents a materialistic Jesus Christ - the more than abundant life available to Christians who are envious of the prosperity that unbelievers have. So - you can look at it a number of ways - he talks about Jesus Christ that's good - but then wierwille pivots to pursuing material abundance through the principles we can learn in the class - that's bad.
That always bugged me. The "more than abundant life" has never ever been about money or things. Should have seen this as a red flag for a materialistic set-up, and walked out straight away.
There are some good things in PFAL, but that's because they were pinched from someone who'd put thought in, and who may himself have been inspired by God.
Also some good things in the RHST part - for the same reason.
The trouble is trying to sort out the truth from the fanciful, reconciling the conflicting messages and versions of whatever "the class" says, etc. Not being able to sort out truth from - from what isn't - is confusing and distracting. It's a poisoned apple (from a poisoned tree). Not all of the apple is poisoned, but you don't know which bits are and which bits are safe to eat. Best thing to do is discard the lot.
Heck, for all I know, the confusing bits were deliberate - to confuse, to distract, from the other garbage that we were supposed to take in subliminally. If you're still trying to reconcile "all without exception" with "all with (or without) distinction," you're missing some other perhaps more serious junk.
This is why the "not ALL bad" apologetic is ultimately, if unintentionally, misleading and dangerous.
Twinky, this is what I was trying to say a few posts up thread. You are more eloquent than I.
Usually liars MO is to add extraneous details to their stories for two reasons:
--too many details confuse the brain shutting off critical thinking.
--to add [the appearance of] credibility to their lies.
Not all liars do this, but all hucksters do. This is known as Frankfurtian Bull$hit. The goal is not to conceal the truth (a lie), but to distract, obfuscate and confuse (bull$hit).
Not all liars do this, but all hucksters do. This is known as Frankfurtian Bull$hit. The goal is not to conceal the truth (a lie), but to distract, obfuscate and confuse (bull$hit).
Thank for clarifying the one point I made. I'll edit it accordingly.
Not all liars do this, but all hucksters do. This is known as Frankfurtian Bull$hit. The goal is not to conceal the truth (a lie), but to distract, obfuscate and confuse (bull$hit).
"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bull$hit. Everyone knows this." from Goodreads' blurb on Harry Frankfurt's essay.
4 hours ago, Twinky said:
The trouble is trying to sort out the truth from the fanciful, reconciling the conflicting messages and versions of whatever "the class" says, etc. Not being able to sort out truth from - from what isn't - is confusing and distracting. It's a poisoned apple (from a poisoned tree). Not all of the apple is poisoned, but you don't know which bits are and which bits are safe to eat. Best thing to do is discard the lot.
Heck, for all I know, the confusing bits were deliberate - to confuse, to distract, from the other garbage that we were supposed to [and most likely DID, for a long time] take in subliminally.
103. PFAL teaches Christianity is more of an intellectual pursuit than being influenced by the Holy Spirit
On pages 327ff chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, of the orange book PFAL, wierwille starts off referring to Romans 12:2:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Romans 12:2
…A person must study the Word of God, not what people say around The Word or about The Word. What does God say? As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders…
…This process of building Christ in your mind is a deliberate process that you must do by your freedom of will. You determine that you are going to send the information from God’s Word to your mind and that you are going to live it. To live by believing means to walk day by day and moment by moment by the revealed Word of God.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion wierwille’s comments are very misleading. I can tell you from 12 years of TWI-involvement how this is applied. No one – not even wierwille would say PFAL is “The Word” – or that PFAL is on par with the authority of The Bible – BUT whether TWI-followers realize that or not - such is the case in practice – evident in the attitude and respect everyone exhibits toward wierwille and PFAL.
There’s really little chance of a TWI-follower learning to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, when it’s drummed into one’s head that wierwille is the Bible and Holy Spirit expert and one HAS TO take the PFAL class, the TIP class, and the Advanced Class to be taught how The Holy Spirit/holy spirit should work in one’s life…Honestly PFAL and all the other baloney classes are counterproductive to gaining a deeper knowledge of the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit.
This is another one of those pet-pontifications of wierwille. He so magnified the necessity of NEEDING HIM to teach us “The Word” like it hadn’t been known since the first century – that most TWI-followers never thought about the fact that the first century believers had little “written material” to work with – it was a smattering of various Old Testament scrolls…manuscripts…and there was the occasional apostle showing up – saying "I’ve got a message from the Lord write this down"
Maybe later you might want to check out when the “books” of the Bible were written and how accessible these “books” were to believers; here’s some hyperlinks/food for thought, you can check out later:
Back in the first century – as well as before then – believers did cherish the written Word of God – but it’s not like the convenience of mass-produced Bibles in many languages, versions and online we have today. But always available is the presence of the Lord. I feel that was the continuity I missed – in touch with the Holy Spirit. The Way Ministry - so entrenched in wierwille’s ideology, manages to impose religious restrictions on everyone who sticks around after taking PFAL. Something about the mentality I adopted became almost like an intellectual and emotional straitjacket. It kept me under their thumb…I had lost confidence in my cognitive abilities…disregarded gut feelings…and was too afraid to step out on a path of my own choosing because I didn’t think it was God’s will.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a study bug. Studying the Bible and thinking about it in a self-reflective manner is important. Note the context in the following passages…there is a contrast between the desires of the flesh and desires of the Spirit. Being led by the Holy Spirit suggests there is an active relationship:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8
~ ~ ~ ~
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
I’ll wrap up this post circling back to the Rom. 12:2 verse that wierwille expounded upon:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Romans 12:2
You can click on the Rom. 12:2 hyperlink I provided and see the same verse in parallel translation – I find that comes in handy when studying…and while on Bible Hub’s website take note of the other features you can click on: interlinear, sermons, lexicon, topical, commentaries, etc.…clicking on commentariesI copied and pasted a few excerpts on Rom. 12:2 below – notice the emphasis of being led by the Spirit:
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind: Be you regenerated, and changed in your whole man; beginning at the mind, by which the Spirit of God worketh upon the inferior faculties of the soul: see Ephesians 4:23….
…The work of the Holy Ghost first begins in the understanding, and is carried on to the will, affections, and conversation, till there is a change of the whole man into the likeness of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness. Thus, to be godly, is to give up ourselves to God…
…By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience... The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler…
Study, like hit the books? Like study for a geography test? Or study for the final exam?
And when he says the Word of God, does he mean YourWalk+Believing+TheBible+ChristInYou? Or does he mean the Bible?
Does "the Word of God" itself say one must study it, as for an exam?
Great questions!
Below are some parallel translations of II Timothy 2:15as well as the hyperlink to commentaries on II Tim.2:15; from all that - what I see is the emphasis is on diligence…concentrating on being truthful/accurate with the interpretation of Scripture in general and the gospel message in particular – and by extension the honest work of pastoring and teaching the flock.I Corinthians 3addresses some similar themes for church leaders:
New International Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
New Living Translation Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.
English Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Berean Standard Bible Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
Berean Literal Bible Hasten to present yourself approved to God, a workman not ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
King James Bible Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New King James Version Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New American Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1995 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1977 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
Amplified Bible Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth.
Christian Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
Holman Christian Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
American Standard Version Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English And take care of yourself, that you present yourself perfectly before God, a laborer without shame, who preaches the word of truth straightforwardly.
Contemporary English Version Do your best to win God's approval as a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed and who teaches only the true message.
Douay-Rheims Bible Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Good News Translation Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
International Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.
Literal Standard Version be diligent to present yourself approved to God—a workman not ashamed, straightly cutting the word of truth;
New American Bible Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.
NET Bible Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.
New Revised Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.
New Heart English Bible Do your best to present yourself approved by God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, properly handling the word of truth.
Weymouth New Testament Earnestly seek to commend yourself to God as a servant who, because of his straightforward dealing with the word of truth, has no reason to feel any shame.
World English Bible Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.
Young's Literal Translation be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
Below are some parallel translations of II Timothy 2:15as well as the hyperlink to commentaries on II Tim.2:15; from all that - what I see is the emphasis is on diligence…concentrating on being truthful/accurate with the interpretation of Scripture in general and the gospel message in particular – and by extension the honest work of pastoring and teaching the flock.I Corinthians 3addresses some similar themes for church leaders:
New International Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
New Living Translation Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.
English Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Berean Standard Bible Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
Berean Literal Bible Hasten to present yourself approved to God, a workman not ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
King James Bible Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New King James Version Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New American Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1995 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1977 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
Amplified Bible Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth.
Christian Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
Holman Christian Standard Bible Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
American Standard Version Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English And take care of yourself, that you present yourself perfectly before God, a laborer without shame, who preaches the word of truth straightforwardly.
Contemporary English Version Do your best to win God's approval as a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed and who teaches only the true message.
Douay-Rheims Bible Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Good News Translation Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
International Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.
Literal Standard Version be diligent to present yourself approved to God—a workman not ashamed, straightly cutting the word of truth;
New American Bible Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.
NET Bible Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.
New Revised Standard Version Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.
New Heart English Bible Do your best to present yourself approved by God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, properly handling the word of truth.
Weymouth New Testament Earnestly seek to commend yourself to God as a servant who, because of his straightforward dealing with the word of truth, has no reason to feel any shame.
World English Bible Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.
Young's Literal Translation be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
Right. Thanks. These modern translations are accurate according to usage. Victor missed the mark again with study.
A subscription to the OED is extremely helpful in sorting out the Elizabethan English of the KJV.
62. PFAL endorses a rigid mindset of fundamentalism – and the Christian lifestyle becomes more about having a relationship with a book than with a person.
Do you remember the PFAL session on the fall of man? wierwille contrasted knowledge that comes to us via the five senses as opposed to revelation faith.
He goes into Genesis 2andGenesis 3. Most Grease Spotters probably still remember the drill on the road down. wierwille’s narrative develops this imaginative and scary scenario of a devilish ploy to slowly demolish “the true Word” – and he insinuates that it is still used today: questioning “The Word”, changing “The Word”, adding a word, etc.
Few details are given – yet wierwille picks Genesis 3 apart like a CSI investigation. What was the forbidden fruit? The Bible doesn’t say. What was the tree of knowledge of good and evil? The Bible doesn’t say. How long was the prohibition to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be in effect? The Bible doesn’t say.
Since few details are given, one is hard pressed to create a clear and exact picture of what really happened. wierwille’s wooden interpretation of Genesis 3 makes it a simple case of not following the rule book – it’s just a cold, clinical analysis of how he sees God’s relationship with mankind. You’ve got to know the rules. Follow them to the letter. Doesn’t matter what you think or feel. Sounds like a warm relationship doesn’t it? Naw – I don’t think so.
In PFAL wierwille makes a big deal of Eve’s mistake to add words to the prohibition not to eat it – wierwille says that was wrong when she added “and you must not touch it”. I’ve changed my take on that. Perhaps Eve was being overcautious and wanted to make it more difficult to eat the forbidden fruit if she would not even touch it. I think we all do things like this. If someone has a problem with alcohol, they might have some self-imposed rules – don’t have a single drink…don’t even take a taste…avoid bars…etc. someone watching their weight might intentionally NOT look at the dessert menu…avoid fast food restaurants.
Here's another thing. wierwille makes such a big deal about them disobeying God’s Word. But I think that’s a shallow read of the intimate interrelation of God with Adam and Eve. What is disobedience? It’s a failure or refusal to obey rules or someone in authority.
Adam and Eve had a very close working relationship with God – the authority who set up this one rule. Their disobedience was a betrayal of trust - not being loyal to a person – God! It killed their relationship
I think this aspect of PFAL/wierwille’s fundamentalism reduces what is supposed to be a Christian’s transforming relationship with God, down to a one-sided relationship with a book. That “relationship” is not transformative – because the person relies on self-reflection based on how they interpret the Bible. There's no feedback from the author of the book.
There are many places in the Bible that speak of the validation of truth by the Holy Spirit when we consider the words of God and try to follow the message the best we can. The Bible then becomes necessary as facilitating a relationship with God. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
19 hours ago, T-Bone said:
103. PFAL teaches Christianity is more of an intellectual pursuit than being influenced by the Holy Spirit
On pages 327ff chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, of the orange book PFAL, wierwille starts off referring to Romans 12:2:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Romans 12:2
…A person must study the Word of God, not what people say around The Word or about The Word. What does God say? As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders…
…This process of building Christ in your mind is a deliberate process that you must do by your freedom of will. You determine that you are going to send the information from God’s Word to your mind and that you are going to live it. To live by believing means to walk day by day and moment by moment by the revealed Word of God.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion wierwille’s comments are very misleading. I can tell you from 12 years of TWI-involvement how this is applied. No one – not even wierwille would say PFAL is “The Word” – or that PFAL is on par with the authority of The Bible – BUT whether TWI-followers realize that or not - such is the case in practice – evident in the attitude and respect everyone exhibits toward wierwille and PFAL.
There’s really little chance of a TWI-follower learning to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, when it’s drummed into one’s head that wierwille is the Bible and Holy Spirit expert and one HAS TO take the PFAL class, the TIP class, and the Advanced Class to be taught how The Holy Spirit/holy spirit should work in one’s life…Honestly PFAL and all the other baloney classes are counterproductive to gaining a deeper knowledge of the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit.
This is another one of those pet-pontifications of wierwille. He so magnified the necessity of NEEDING HIM to teach us “The Word” like it hadn’t been known since the first century – that most TWI-followers never thought about the fact that the first century believers had little “written material” to work with – it was a smattering of various Old Testament scrolls…manuscripts…and there was the occasional apostle showing up – saying "I’ve got a message from the Lord write this down"
Maybe later you might want to check out when the “books” of the Bible were written and how accessible these “books” were to believers; here’s some hyperlinks/food for thought, you can check out later:
Back in the first century – as well as before then – believers did cherish the written Word of God – but it’s not like the convenience of mass-produced Bibles in many languages, versions and online we have today. But always available is the presence of the Lord. I feel that was the continuity I missed – in touch with the Holy Spirit. The Way Ministry - so entrenched in wierwille’s ideology, manages to impose religious restrictions on everyone who sticks around after taking PFAL. Something about the mentality I adopted became almost like an intellectual and emotional straitjacket. It kept me under their thumb…I had lost confidence in my cognitive abilities…disregarded gut feelings…and was too afraid to step out on a path of my own choosing because I didn’t think it was God’s will.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a study bug. Studying the Bible and thinking about it in a self-reflective manner is important. Note the context in the following passages…there is a contrast between the desires of the flesh and desires of the Spirit. Being led by the Holy Spirit suggests there is an active relationship:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8
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13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
I’ll wrap up this post circling back to the Rom. 12:2 verse that wierwille expounded upon:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Romans 12:2
You can click on the Rom. 12:2 hyperlink I provided and see the same verse in parallel translation – I find that comes in handy when studying…and while on Bible Hub’s website take note of the other features you can click on: interlinear, sermons, lexicon, topical, commentaries, etc.…clicking on commentariesI copied and pasted a few excerpts on Rom. 12:2 below – notice the emphasis of being led by the Spirit:
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind: Be you regenerated, and changed in your whole man; beginning at the mind, by which the Spirit of God worketh upon the inferior faculties of the soul: see Ephesians 4:23….
…The work of the Holy Ghost first begins in the understanding, and is carried on to the will, affections, and conversation, till there is a change of the whole man into the likeness of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness. Thus, to be godly, is to give up ourselves to God…
…By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience... The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler…
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. Damnable heresy all the way here. It would be worded better if they just told the truth: The way ministry takes the place of the real Jesus Christ. That holds true across the board for people in the way international. The directors act as the head of the body. The way ministry is considered by the way ministry "the functioning body of Christ"...the way corps stand in the gap....the only gap I have ever known about was the one that was put between God and his people by the sin nature. The real Jesus Christ stands in that gap as the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ died for our sins...not the way international. I could keep going....does anyone have any idea whatsoever where this awful doctrine originated? I have never heard it outside the way ministry. Was this VPW's brainchild?
To me this is a very anti-Christ doctrine. Nowhere is Christ ever called absent and nowhere is he replaced by anything. He has all the preeminance. Period. Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone and no other foundation can no man lay. I
This is cross-referencing WPFALS #62 (Why PFAL Sucks reason # 62), WPFALS # 103 (Why PFAL sucks reason # 103) and The Absent Christ thread…or CR: WPFALS62-WPFALS103-TAC for short. This can be found in the imaginary cross-referencing section of Why PFAL sucks – and is listed as follows:
CR: WPFALS62-WPFALS103-TAC: The emptiness some (like me) felt. Apart from a personal relationship with Christ – the Christian lifestyle is meaningless.
Charles Brewster "Charley" Ross (born May 4, 1870 – disappeared July 1, 1874) was the primary victim of the first American kidnapping for ransom to receive widespread media coverage. His fate remains unknown, and his case is one of the most famous disappearances in U.S. history. From: Kidnapping of Charley Ross
…in a manner of speaking – for me- a personal relationship with Christ was abducted by wierwille in his teaching of “The Wordtakes the place of the absent Christ.” Maybe this is a nefarious twist of the bait-and-switch scam. In PFAL, Jesus Christ is like the window-dressing of a shady pseudo-Christian store. If you think about what’s pushed in TWI – it’s not a Christ-centered ministry nor is the theology Christ-centered. It’s all about a wierwille-centered ministry and a wierwille-centered theology…
reflecting on my 12 years with TWI, it was a missing-persons case. Jesus Christ was missing from my life. And wierwille and upper leadership would string me along – with claims that taking the next class, working PFAL material, making PFAL my own would satisfy my spiritual needs. It’s almost like they showed me a picture of Jesus Christ in the stores display window – if you ever want to see your Jesus alive, you better pay the ransom– which was the cost of the classes, the commitment to the programs, abundant sharing 15% or more, allegiance to the cult-leader, etc.
So, rest assured Jesus Christ was NOT literally kidnapped…and not that all students fell prey to all of wierwille’s erroneous doctrines – but for some like myself, there was no feeling I should connect with a person – since I was led to believe the person was not here. That’s the kicker about teaching scenarios. Having a good teacher with the best of intentions does not guarantee every student will correctly understand the object lesson.
This pessimistic tone seems out of place in the Bible, a book which is vibrant with hope. But its role in Scripture can be understood when we grasp the nature of Qoheleth’s study. [fyi “Qoheleth”, a Hebrew word meaning “preacher,” “teacher,” or “a collector of sayings,” appears in the first verse of the book of Ecclesiastes…T-Bone] He limits his search for life’s meaning to data gained by the senses within the material universe alone. This is refelceted in the phrase “under the sun,” which occurs 29 times in the book.
He also relies only on the power of human reason, stating seven times that he “communed with my own heart.” In essence, the writer consciously ignored special revelation to find out if life holds any meaning apart from insights provided by God. Given this framework, the book makes an important contribution. It resonates with the emptiness we all feel when alienated from God and demonstrates that apart from a personal relationship with Him, life is meaningless indeed.
End of excerpt
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Let me add another tidbit for those unfamiliar with the theological terms of general revelation and special revelation.
General revelation is available to everyone, anywhere in the world and can be seen as God revealing himself in the world around us. In contrast, special revelation includes miracles, prophets, and special messages received from God. Special revelation show God’s revelation of himself through the Bible and Jesus Christ.
It wasn’t until after I left TWI – a couple of years later that a coworker befriended me over our common interest in Bible study. Bible-knowledge-wise, I guess we were probably more or less equal. But there was something about him that was more…vibrant? He seemed to have a more experiential depth of Bible-knowledge. As our relationship grew – I opened up about my involvement with a cult and even got into doctrines I knew would be thorny issues (at the time, I still did not re-explore JCING vs The Trinity). He was great! Helped me get over the stigma of surviving a cult. He was not judgmental. And he did a very wise thing – we never discussed aberrant doctrines – instead he went to the heart of my problem – I had never developed a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
For months after that I was walking around with the enthusiasm of a new convert. I knew that would wear off – but having figured out the broken connection set me in a new direction. This is still an ongoing project – it’s like having a fixer-upper house. Some things that are still valid – I keep – maybe they need a little cleaning up or weeding…other stuff needs a refit.
Edited by T-Bone general editing vs special editing
I'm pondering whether to start a new topic in Doctrinal, T-Bone, that I think you'd find interesting. Kinda follows from my "Consider the Evidence" thread, and links well with your above post.
As it's gone midnight now and I was tired a couple of hours ago, now is not the time to start something that could be controversial. Maybe tomorrow. Watch that space (not this one, LOL).
It wasn’t until after I left TWI – a couple of years later that a coworker befriended me over our common interest in Bible study. Bible-knowledge-wise, I guess we were probably more or less equal. But there was something about him that was more…vibrant? He seemed to have a more experiential depth of Bible-knowledge. As our relationship grew – I opened up about my involvement with a cult and even got into doctrines I knew would be thorny issues (at the time, I still did not re-explore JCING vs The Trinity). He was great! Helped me get over the stigma of surviving a cult. He was not judgmental. And he did a very wise thing – we never discussed aberrant doctrines – instead he went to the heart of my problem – I had never developed a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
For months after that I was walking around with the enthusiasm of a new convert. I knew that would wear off – but having figured out the broken connection set me in a new direction. This is still an ongoing project – it’s like having a fixer-upper house. Some things that are still valid – I keep – maybe they need a little cleaning up or weeding…other stuff needs a refit.
If all the apologists did nothing else but read this and follow the example they would be better off.
This is a real life account of the eye not saying to the hand I have no need of you but rather the body of Christ functioning as God designed it.
I am not quite ready to tackle the Trinity doctrine but I will say this. With logic you are forced to accept either a dual nature of Christ or like VP does perform acrobatics scripturally to show a dual nature of the Holy Spirit. Which the big HS little hs is the stupidest bullshonta ever. But that is for another thread.
If all the apologists did nothing else but read this and follow the example they would be better off.
This is a real life account of the eye not saying to the hand I have no need of you but rather the body of Christ functioning as God designed it.
I am not quite ready to tackle the Trinity doctrine but I will say this. With logic you are forced to accept either a dual nature of Christ or like VP does perform acrobatics scripturally to show a dual nature of the Holy Spirit. Which the big HS little hs is the stupidest bullshonta ever. But that is for another thread.
As far as tackling the Trinity doctrine – I’ve been doing that for some 36 years now since I left…just to give opposing views an easy targetI usually say I’m a Trinitarian now – but a lot of my beliefs are in a state of flux since I left which means I have a lot of wiggle room…looking into verses that suggest the divinity of Christ is one way to unpack the idea of Christ’s identity…
...I don’t see anything in the Bible forbidding me to believe Jesus Christ is divine – as part of the Trinity. I don’t see Him as one and the same as the Father or the Holy Spirit…but there’s no denying there are ample Scripture that indicates in some way all 3 are interconnected – even though how it works is inexplicable to our finite minds. This is a lifelong study project of mine. I love the challenge – not to be able to explain it…but to learn more and more how…somehow…The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit work together.
As far as tackling the Trinity doctrine – I’ve been doing that for some 36 years now since I left…just to give opposing views an easy targetI usually say I’m a Trinitarian now – but a lot of my beliefs are in a state of flux since I left which means I have a lot of wiggle room…looking into verses that suggest the divinity of Christ is one way to unpack the idea of Christ’s identity…
...I don’t see anything in the Bible forbidding me to believe Jesus Christ is divine – as part of the Trinity. I don’t see Him as one and the same as the Father or the Holy Spirit…but there’s no denying there are ample Scripture that indicates in some way all 3 are interconnected – even though how it works is inexplicable to our finite minds. This is a lifelong study project of mine. I love the challenge – not to be able to explain it…but to learn more and more how…somehow…The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit work together.
Yes I am not conflicted with a dual natured Christ either. I don’t have the energy to do that thread now but a thread in doctrinal in the new year would be cool to explore.
I also can see aspects of divinity as well as aspects of humanity. The mind bender is 100% dual nature. VP keyed off of that seeming discrepancy and drove a truck through the wedge there. The fruit was division and a splintered shipwreck off the body of Christ.
It would be good to explore that aspect of way brain some time.
Yes I am not conflicted with a dual natured Christ either. I don’t have the energy to do that thread now but a thread in doctrinal in the new year would be cool to explore.
I also can see aspects of divinity as well as aspects of humanity. The mind bender is 100% dual nature. VP keyed off of that seeming discrepancy and drove a truck through the wedge there. The fruit was division and a splintered shipwreck off the body of Christ.
It would be good to explore that aspect of way brain some time.
I welcome this thread. Here's my postulate....Jesus Christ was/is a man and after the ascension was promoted to second in command and is unlike anything we can realte to; whereas Joseph and Pharoah is an allegory of that relationship. That's an oversimplified statement on purpose so I welcome this new thread when we are all rested from the constant onslaught of bullshonta. Im interested in hearing what your guy's studies have determined. Laters!
I welcome this thread. Here's my postulate....Jesus Christ was/is a man and after the ascension was promoted to second in command and is unlike anything we can realte to; whereas Joseph and Pharoah is an allegory of that relationship. That's an oversimplified statement on purpose so I welcome this new thread when we are all rested from the constant onslaught of bullshonta. Im interested in hearing what your guy's studies have determined. Laters!
Yeah for me it’s going to take some concerted effort to root out all the plaque in the teeth from cult land on this one. I get the gist of it - dual nature, some essence of both, but don’t want to call it a mystery like the Catholics and don’t want to misstep.
Ill start a thread Jan 1 unless you guys want to go for it earlier.
Im exploring it from the perspective of getting to know my Lord and Savior better and eradicate false images of Him.
Whenever is clever is cool with me. Im game anytime.
I think your perspective matches what I am after and just never really said it that way. Thanks!
41 minutes ago, chockfull said:
Yeah for me it’s going to take some concerted effort to root out all the plaque in the teeth from cult land on this one. I get the gist of it - dual nature, some essence of both, but don’t want to call it a mystery like the Catholics and don’t want to misstep.
Ill start a thread Jan 1 unless you guys want to go for it earlier.
Im exploring it from the perspective of getting to know my Lord and Savior better and eradicate false images of Him.
51 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
I welcome this thread. Here's my postulate....Jesus Christ was/is a man and after the ascension was promoted to second in command and is unlike anything we can realte to; whereas Joseph and Pharoah is an allegory of that relationship. That's an oversimplified statement on purpose so I welcome this new thread when we are all rested from the constant onslaught of bullshonta. Im interested in hearing what your guy's studies have determined. Laters!
57 minutes ago, chockfull said:
Yes I am not conflicted with a dual natured Christ either. I don’t have the energy to do that thread now but a thread in doctrinal in the new year would be cool to explore.
I also can see aspects of divinity as well as aspects of humanity. The mind bender is 100% dual nature. VP keyed off of that seeming discrepancy and drove a truck through the wedge there. The fruit was division and a splintered shipwreck off the body of Christ.
It would be good to explore that aspect of way brain some time.
Sounds like a plan!
I’d love to explore the duality of Jesus Christ and how that relates to the functionality of His various roles.
And I also anticipate with keen interest delving into addressing some issues - assuming there is a Trinity. Don’t think anyone is going to reinvent the wheel – but it would be fun to have Grease Spotters asking some age-old questions like:
You're all going way off topic now. Isn't there already a current trinity thread??
Interesting for a discussion later, though.
Sorry – I’m usually the culprit in straying way off-topic
But you know – some new threads are started that way
Also, I find there can be a nice interconnectedness to other threads – lately I’ve taken advantage of that – linking a post here to other threads and then going to other threads and linking them back to here. I'm hoping it provides some continuity for someone when a point resonates with them, and they can easily cross-reference to what others said on other threads related to that point.
103. PFAL teaches Christianity is more of an intellectual pursuit than being influenced by the Holy Spirit
On pages 327ff chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, of the orange book PFAL, wierwille starts off referring to Romans 12:2:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Romans 12:2
…A person must study the Word of God, not what people say around The Word or about The Word. What does God say? As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders…
…This process of building Christ in your mind is a deliberate process that you must do by your freedom of will. You determine that you are going to send the information from God’s Word to your mind and that you are going to live it. To live by believing means to walk day by day and moment by moment by the revealed Word of God.
End of excerpts
104. wierwille’s teaching “the renewed mind” was a tool of manipulation
I quoted item # 103 of why PFAL sucks to make it clear this is a whole different angle – of Romans 12:2, where cult-leaders use it as a manipulative tool. The manipulation hides under the guise of self-improvement – the pseudo-Christian cult-leader bids us to adopt an attitude supposedly in the Bible…we may naturally have a desire to grow, and we assume the cult-leader has our best interests in mind – so by our own effortswe follow their lead.
(*see below DVD extras strategies of manipulative people)
In item #103 I quoted from the latter part of chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, out of the orange book PFAL. Now I quote from the first page of the chapter:
What does it mean “to renew one’s mind”? It means to hold The Word in mind and act accordingly.
End of excerpt
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But Romans 12:2 does NOTstate “hold The Word in mind and act accordingly.” (* See below in DVD extras for commentaries on Romans 12:2 – it’s about being led by the Holy Spirit as the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ upholds our feeble frame to appropriately respond to God)
wierwille’s usual manner of influence was to authoritatively state a Bible passage and morph it into justifying even the most inappropriate behavior.
When I was in-residence for way corps training, under the pretext of preparing us to provide Christian counseling to believers in even the most unusual situations, wierwille showed us a porn video. Afterwards I think wierwille sensed how shocked and offended many of us were - so he says something along the lines of, “Anything done in the love of God is okay – and I’m doing this out of love to help prepare you for ministering to others…I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.”
For a little more context, this was during my first year in-residence. My wife and I were newbies in-residence (younger corps), we always felt like we had to fit in…so there was that subtle pressure of * groupthink (see below - DVD extras on groupthink and *how following others can mask cognitive dissonance) I never heard of anyone in the younger corps or elder corps complain or voice concerns, doubts or questions about that or any of the other inappropriate things wierwille said or did.
There’s something to that old saying “seeing is believing”. Folks who have never been in the way corps program might have to actually see the dark underbelly of the beast to accept that it really exists.
If you’ve never been in the way corps or around wierwille when he was relaxed, being himself…and occasionally in unguarded moments he would reveal something so dark that you’d think most normal people would usually keep something like that secret - except to maybe a therapist.Reflecting on those times I see another aspect of wierwille – his inability to exercise good judgment.
It’s been said sometimes you must go through the worst to get to the best. My way corps experience may be a weird variation of that. I had to experience some of the inner workings of The Way International – how wierwille trained his leaders – to get the clearest picture of how a dangerous and deceptive cult qualifies PFAL grads to manage the ministry at all levels…Words would often fail me and feelings of confusion, shame, and guilt would choke what I wanted to communicate to my sponsors – who were all non-corps. I realized even back then – UNLESS THEY HAD SEENthe hypocrisy and abuse by wierwille and upper leadership, they just wouldn’t believe it. So, in letters, phone calls and face-to-face conversations with our sponsors we were reticent in why we said we were leaving TWI – mostly because we were still trying to sort everything out.
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DVD extras
*Excerpts of commentary on Romans 12:2
…By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience. “The mind” here is not strictly identical with what we now mean by “conscience;” it is, as it were, the rational part of conscience, to which the moral quality needs to be superadded. The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler…
…Note, then, that the foundation of all transformation of character and conduct is laid deep in a renewed mind. Now it is a matter of world-wide experience, verified by each of us in our own case, if we have ever been honest in the attempt, that the power of self-improvement is limited by very narrow bounds. Any man that has ever tried to cure himself of the most trivial habit which he desires to get rid of, or to alter in the slightest degree the set of some strong taste or current of his being, knows how little he can do, even by the most determined effort.
Something may be effected, but, alas! as the proverbs of all nations and all lands have taught us, it is very little indeed. ‘You cannot expel nature with a fork,’ said the Roman. ‘What’s bred in the bone won’t come out of the flesh,’ says the Englishman. ‘Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?’ says the Hebrew. And we all know what the answer to that question is. The problem that is set before a man when you tell him to effect self-improvement is something like that which confronted that poor paralytic lying in the porch at the pool: ‘If you can walk you will be able to get to the pool that will make you able to walk. But you have got to be cured before you can do what you need to do in order to be cured.’
Only one knife can cut the knot. The Gospel of Jesus Christ presents itself, not as a mere republication of morality, not as merely a new stimulus and motive to do what is right, but as an actual communication to men of a new power to work in them, a strong hand laid upon our poor, feeble hand with which we try to put on the brake or to apply the stimulus. It is a new gift of a life which will unfold itself after its own nature, as the bud into flower, and the flower into fruit; giving new desires, tastes, directions, and renewing the whole nature. And so, says Paul, the beginning of transformation of character is the renovation in the very centre of the being, and the communication of a new impulse and power to the inward self…
In a harmful and controlling cult followers will have a sense of the desire for harmony or conformity in the group. In cults this will result in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation.
Social psychology is the scientific study of how thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are influenced by the real or imagined presence of other people or by social norms. Social psychologists typically explain human behavior as a result of the relationship between mental states and social situations, studying the social conditions under which thoughts, feelings, and behaviors occur, and how these variables influence social interactions.
The following ae excerpts byAbigail Brenner a board-certified psychiatrist in practice for more than 30 years:
Manipulative people are really not interested in anyone else except for getting them to unwillingly participate in their plans.
Handling a manipulative person requires staying alert, staying in touch with one's own truth, and anticipating what is to come.
Traits of manipulative people include ignoring others' boundaries and avoiding responsibility.
Manipulative people have mastered the art of deception. They may appear respectable and sincere but often that’s just a facade; it's a way to draw you in and ensnare you in a relationship before they show their true colors.
Manipulative people are really not interested in you except as a vehicle to allow them to gain control so that you become an unwilling participant in their plans. They have several ways of doing this, as many of you will recognize. They will often take what you say and do and twist it around so that what you said and did becomes barely recognizable to you. They will attempt to confuse you, maybe even making you feel as if you’re crazy. They distort the truth and may resort to lying if it serves their end.
Manipulative people can play the victim, making you seem to be the one who caused a problem which they began but won’t take responsibility for. They can be passive-aggressive or nice one minute and standoffish the next, to keep you guessing and to prey on your fears and insecurities. They often make you defensive. They can also be extremely aggressive and vicious, resorting to personal attacks and criticism, dogged in their pursuit of getting what they want. They bully and threaten, and won’t let up or let go until they wear you down.
*How following others can mask cognitive dissonance
Excerpts from an article by Matt Wallaert, a behavioral scientist:
…a study on facial feedback and the design is fairly simple. We give people some cartoons to read and then ask them to rate how funny they are. In one condition, they do this while holding a pen in their mouth by the tip with their lips, like a straw. In another, they use their teeth instead.
The trick is that holding a pen by the lips forces their facial muscles into a frowning position, while holding it with their teeth forces a smile. And when they trick themselves into frowning or smiling, it turns out they rate the cartoons as less or more funny accordingly. A related study shows that people tricked into smiling had lower heart rates during stressful tasks and were more likely to emerge feeling positive; it isn’t just perception that changes, it is your actual physical and mental reaction to the situation.
This is because your brain wants what you feel and believe to line up with what you do, avoiding what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. And because actions are tough to adjust in real time (it is hard to deny you were just frowning or smiling) and beliefs are easier, the brain tends to move the beliefs.
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penworks
VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it me
waysider
And in doing so, he was violating his own "To Whom it is Written" rule.
Charity
What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power,
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So_crates
100. The Way want PLAF grads to pay $100 for a shorter, supposedly new and improved PLAF class they've already taken.
Hey, PLAF Today, they didn't even bother to change the name--much.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
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Twinky
You said it before I said it.
There are some good things in PFAL, but that's because they were pinched from someone who'd put thought in, and who may himself have been inspired by God.
Also some good things in the RHST part - for the same reason.
The trouble is trying to sort out the truth from the fanciful, reconciling the conflicting messages and versions of whatever "the class" says, etc. Not being able to sort out truth from - from what isn't - is confusing and distracting. It's a poisoned apple (from a poisoned tree). Not all of the apple is poisoned, but you don't know which bits are and which bits are safe to eat. Best thing to do is discard the lot.
Heck, for all I know, the confusing bits were deliberate - to confuse, to distract, from the other garbage that we were supposed to take in subliminally. If you're still trying to reconcile "all without exception" with "all with (or without) distinction," you're missing some other perhaps more serious junk.
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So_crates
Usually liars MO is to add extraneous details to their stories for two reasons:
--too many details confuse the brain shutting off critical thinking.
--to add the appearance of credibility to their lies.
Edited by So_cratesTo, with Nathan_Jr's help editing, clarify a point.
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Twinky
That always bugged me. The "more than abundant life" has never ever been about money or things. Should have seen this as a red flag for a materialistic set-up, and walked out straight away.
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Nathan_Jr
This is why the "not ALL bad" apologetic is ultimately, if unintentionally, misleading and dangerous.
Twinky, this is what I was trying to say a few posts up thread. You are more eloquent than I.
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Nathan_Jr
Not all liars do this, but all hucksters do. This is known as Frankfurtian Bull$hit. The goal is not to conceal the truth (a lie), but to distract, obfuscate and confuse (bull$hit).
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So_crates
Thank for clarifying the one point I made. I'll edit it accordingly.
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Rocky
"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bull$hit. Everyone knows this." from Goodreads' blurb on Harry Frankfurt's essay.
Brava Twinky! Eloquently stated indeed.
Edited by Rockyremove an S, replace it with an $
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T-Bone
103. PFAL teaches Christianity is more of an intellectual pursuit than being influenced by the Holy Spirit
On pages 327ff chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, of the orange book PFAL, wierwille starts off referring to Romans 12:2:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2
…A person must study the Word of God, not what people say around The Word or about The Word. What does God say? As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders…
…This process of building Christ in your mind is a deliberate process that you must do by your freedom of will. You determine that you are going to send the information from God’s Word to your mind and that you are going to live it. To live by believing means to walk day by day and moment by moment by the revealed Word of God.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion wierwille’s comments are very misleading. I can tell you from 12 years of TWI-involvement how this is applied. No one – not even wierwille would say PFAL is “The Word” – or that PFAL is on par with the authority of The Bible – BUT whether TWI-followers realize that or not - such is the case in practice – evident in the attitude and respect everyone exhibits toward wierwille and PFAL.
There’s really little chance of a TWI-follower learning to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, when it’s drummed into one’s head that wierwille is the Bible and Holy Spirit expert and one HAS TO take the PFAL class, the TIP class, and the Advanced Class to be taught how The Holy Spirit/holy spirit should work in one’s life…Honestly PFAL and all the other baloney classes are counterproductive to gaining a deeper knowledge of the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit.
This is another one of those pet-pontifications of wierwille. He so magnified the necessity of NEEDING HIM to teach us “The Word” like it hadn’t been known since the first century – that most TWI-followers never thought about the fact that the first century believers had little “written material” to work with – it was a smattering of various Old Testament scrolls…manuscripts…and there was the occasional apostle showing up – saying "I’ve got a message from the Lord write this down"
Maybe later you might want to check out when the “books” of the Bible were written and how accessible these “books” were to believers; here’s some hyperlinks/food for thought, you can check out later:
Wikipedia: dating the Bible
Bible Gateway: when was each book of the Bible written?
Biblical Archaeology org: when was the Bible written?
Blue Letter Bible org: IN WHAT FORM WERE THE BIBLICAL BOOKS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN?
Bible Odyssey org: how was the Bible written and transmitted?
How did early Christians view books of the Bible?
Christianity Today: What Bible Version Did Jesus Read?
Quora: what Bible did Jesus use?
Back in the first century – as well as before then – believers did cherish the written Word of God – but it’s not like the convenience of mass-produced Bibles in many languages, versions and online we have today. But always available is the presence of the Lord. I feel that was the continuity I missed – in touch with the Holy Spirit. The Way Ministry - so entrenched in wierwille’s ideology, manages to impose religious restrictions on everyone who sticks around after taking PFAL. Something about the mentality I adopted became almost like an intellectual and emotional straitjacket. It kept me under their thumb…I had lost confidence in my cognitive abilities…disregarded gut feelings…and was too afraid to step out on a path of my own choosing because I didn’t think it was God’s will.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a study bug. Studying the Bible and thinking about it in a self-reflective manner is important. Note the context in the following passages…there is a contrast between the desires of the flesh and desires of the Spirit. Being led by the Holy Spirit suggests there is an active relationship:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8
~ ~ ~ ~
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Galatians 5: 13 - 26
~ ~ ~ ~
I’ll wrap up this post circling back to the Rom. 12:2 verse that wierwille expounded upon:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2
You can click on the Rom. 12:2 hyperlink I provided and see the same verse in parallel translation – I find that comes in handy when studying…and while on Bible Hub’s website take note of the other features you can click on: interlinear, sermons, lexicon, topical, commentaries, etc.…clicking on commentaries I copied and pasted a few excerpts on Rom. 12:2 below – notice the emphasis of being led by the Spirit:
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind: Be you regenerated, and changed in your whole man; beginning at the mind, by which the Spirit of God worketh upon the inferior faculties of the soul: see Ephesians 4:23….
…The work of the Holy Ghost first begins in the understanding, and is carried on to the will, affections, and conversation, till there is a change of the whole man into the likeness of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness. Thus, to be godly, is to give up ourselves to God…
…By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience... The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler…
From: Bible Hub: Romans 12:2 commentaries
End of excerpts
Edited by T-Bonewrite this down
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Nathan_Jr
Study, like hit the books? Like study for a geography test? Or study for the final exam?
And when he says the Word of God, does he mean YourWalk+Believing+TheBible+ChristInYou? Or does he mean the Bible?
Does "the Word of God" itself say one must study it, as for an exam?
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T-Bone
Great questions!
Below are some parallel translations of II Timothy 2:15 as well as the hyperlink to commentaries on II Tim.2:15; from all that - what I see is the emphasis is on diligence…concentrating on being truthful/accurate with the interpretation of Scripture in general and the gospel message in particular – and by extension the honest work of pastoring and teaching the flock. I Corinthians 3 addresses some similar themes for church leaders:
New International Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
New Living Translation
Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.
English Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Berean Standard Bible
Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
Berean Literal Bible
Hasten to present yourself approved to God, a workman not ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
King James Bible
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New King James Version
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
New American Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1995
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
NASB 1977
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
Amplified Bible
Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth.
Christian Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
American Standard Version
Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And take care of yourself, that you present yourself perfectly before God, a laborer without shame, who preaches the word of truth straightforwardly.
Contemporary English Version
Do your best to win God's approval as a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed and who teaches only the true message.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Good News Translation
Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
International Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.
Literal Standard Version
be diligent to present yourself approved to God—a workman not ashamed, straightly cutting the word of truth;
New American Bible
Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.
NET Bible
Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.
New Revised Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.
New Heart English Bible
Do your best to present yourself approved by God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, properly handling the word of truth.
Weymouth New Testament
Earnestly seek to commend yourself to God as a servant who, because of his straightforward dealing with the word of truth, has no reason to feel any shame.
World English Bible
Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.
Young's Literal Translation
be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
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Nathan_Jr
Right. Thanks. These modern translations are accurate according to usage. Victor missed the mark again with study.
A subscription to the OED is extremely helpful in sorting out the Elizabethan English of the KJV.
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T-Bone
This is cross-referencing WPFALS #62 (Why PFAL Sucks reason # 62), WPFALS # 103 (Why PFAL sucks reason # 103) and The Absent Christ thread…or CR: WPFALS62-WPFALS103-TAC for short. This can be found in the imaginary cross-referencing section of Why PFAL sucks – and is listed as follows:
CR: WPFALS62-WPFALS103-TAC: The emptiness some (like me) felt. Apart from a personal relationship with Christ – the Christian lifestyle is meaningless.
Charles Brewster "Charley" Ross (born May 4, 1870 – disappeared July 1, 1874) was the primary victim of the first American kidnapping for ransom to receive widespread media coverage. His fate remains unknown, and his case is one of the most famous disappearances in U.S. history. From: Kidnapping of Charley Ross
…in a manner of speaking – for me- a personal relationship with Christ was abducted by wierwille in his teaching of “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.” Maybe this is a nefarious twist of the bait-and-switch scam. In PFAL, Jesus Christ is like the window-dressing of a shady pseudo-Christian store. If you think about what’s pushed in TWI – it’s not a Christ-centered ministry nor is the theology Christ-centered. It’s all about a wierwille-centered ministry and a wierwille-centered theology…
reflecting on my 12 years with TWI, it was a missing-persons case. Jesus Christ was missing from my life. And wierwille and upper leadership would string me along – with claims that taking the next class, working PFAL material, making PFAL my own would satisfy my spiritual needs. It’s almost like they showed me a picture of Jesus Christ in the stores display window – if you ever want to see your Jesus alive, you better pay the ransom – which was the cost of the classes, the commitment to the programs, abundant sharing 15% or more, allegiance to the cult-leader, etc.
So, rest assured Jesus Christ was NOT literally kidnapped…and not that all students fell prey to all of wierwille’s erroneous doctrines – but for some like myself, there was no feeling I should connect with a person – since I was led to believe the person was not here. That’s the kicker about teaching scenarios. Having a good teacher with the best of intentions does not guarantee every student will correctly understand the object lesson.
On page 395 of THE BIBLE READER'S COMPANION Your Guide to Every Chapter of the Bible by Lawrence O. Richards the author expands on the gloomy theme of Ecclesiastes:
This pessimistic tone seems out of place in the Bible, a book which is vibrant with hope. But its role in Scripture can be understood when we grasp the nature of Qoheleth’s study. [fyi “Qoheleth”, a Hebrew word meaning “preacher,” “teacher,” or “a collector of sayings,” appears in the first verse of the book of Ecclesiastes…T-Bone
] He limits his search for life’s meaning to data gained by the senses within the material universe alone. This is refelceted in the phrase “under the sun,” which occurs 29 times in the book.
He also relies only on the power of human reason, stating seven times that he “communed with my own heart.” In essence, the writer consciously ignored special revelation to find out if life holds any meaning apart from insights provided by God. Given this framework, the book makes an important contribution. It resonates with the emptiness we all feel when alienated from God and demonstrates that apart from a personal relationship with Him, life is meaningless indeed.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Let me add another tidbit for those unfamiliar with the theological terms of general revelation and special revelation.
General revelation is available to everyone, anywhere in the world and can be seen as God revealing himself in the world around us. In contrast, special revelation includes miracles, prophets, and special messages received from God. Special revelation show God’s revelation of himself through the Bible and Jesus Christ.
From: 123 Help Me: general revelation vs special revelation
See also:
Wikipedia: general revelation
Wikipedia: special revelation
~ ~ ~ ~
It wasn’t until after I left TWI – a couple of years later that a coworker befriended me over our common interest in Bible study. Bible-knowledge-wise, I guess we were probably more or less equal. But there was something about him that was more…vibrant? He seemed to have a more experiential depth of Bible-knowledge. As our relationship grew – I opened up about my involvement with a cult and even got into doctrines I knew would be thorny issues (at the time, I still did not re-explore JCING vs The Trinity). He was great! Helped me get over the stigma of surviving a cult. He was not judgmental. And he did a very wise thing – we never discussed aberrant doctrines – instead he went to the heart of my problem – I had never developed a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
For months after that I was walking around with the enthusiasm of a new convert. I knew that would wear off – but having figured out the broken connection set me in a new direction. This is still an ongoing project – it’s like having a fixer-upper house. Some things that are still valid – I keep – maybe they need a little cleaning up or weeding…other stuff needs a refit.
Edited by T-Bonegeneral editing vs special editing
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Twinky
As it's gone midnight now and I was tired a couple of hours ago, now is not the time to start something that could be controversial. Maybe tomorrow. Watch that space (not this one, LOL).
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chockfull
If all the apologists did nothing else but read this and follow the example they would be better off.
This is a real life account of the eye not saying to the hand I have no need of you but rather the body of Christ functioning as God designed it.
I am not quite ready to tackle the Trinity doctrine but I will say this. With logic you are forced to accept either a dual nature of Christ or like VP does perform acrobatics scripturally to show a dual nature of the Holy Spirit. Which the big HS little hs is the stupidest bullshonta ever. But that is for another thread.
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T-Bone
As far as tackling the Trinity doctrine – I’ve been doing that for some 36 years now since I left…just to give opposing views an easy target
I usually say I’m a Trinitarian now – but a lot of my beliefs are in a state of flux since I left which means I have a lot of wiggle room…looking into verses that suggest the divinity of Christ is one way to unpack the idea of Christ’s identity…
...I don’t see anything in the Bible forbidding me to believe Jesus Christ is divine – as part of the Trinity. I don’t see Him as one and the same as the Father or the Holy Spirit…but there’s no denying there are ample Scripture that indicates in some way all 3 are interconnected – even though how it works is inexplicable to our finite minds. This is a lifelong study project of mine. I love the challenge – not to be able to explain it…but to learn more and more how…somehow…The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit work together.
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chockfull
Yes I am not conflicted with a dual natured Christ either. I don’t have the energy to do that thread now but a thread in doctrinal in the new year would be cool to explore.
I also can see aspects of divinity as well as aspects of humanity. The mind bender is 100% dual nature. VP keyed off of that seeming discrepancy and drove a truck through the wedge there. The fruit was division and a splintered shipwreck off the body of Christ.
It would be good to explore that aspect of way brain some time.
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OldSkool
I welcome this thread. Here's my postulate....Jesus Christ was/is a man and after the ascension was promoted to second in command and is unlike anything we can realte to; whereas Joseph and Pharoah is an allegory of that relationship. That's an oversimplified statement on purpose so I welcome this new thread when we are all rested from the constant onslaught of bullshonta. Im interested in hearing what your guy's studies have determined. Laters!
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chockfull
Yeah for me it’s going to take some concerted effort to root out all the plaque in the teeth from cult land on this one. I get the gist of it - dual nature, some essence of both, but don’t want to call it a mystery like the Catholics and don’t want to misstep.
Ill start a thread Jan 1 unless you guys want to go for it earlier.
Im exploring it from the perspective of getting to know my Lord and Savior better and eradicate false images of Him.
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OldSkool
Whenever is clever is cool with me. Im game anytime.
I think your perspective matches what I am after and just never really said it that way. Thanks!
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T-Bone
Sounds like a plan!
I’d love to explore the duality of Jesus Christ and how that relates to the functionality of His various roles.
And I also anticipate with keen interest delving into addressing some issues - assuming there is a Trinity. Don’t think anyone is going to reinvent the wheel – but it would be fun to have Grease Spotters asking some age-old questions like:
what is the purpose of the Trinity ?
how does the Trinity work together ?
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Twinky
You're all going way off topic now. Isn't there already a current trinity thread??
Interesting for a discussion later, though.
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T-Bone
Sorry – I’m usually the culprit in straying way off-topic
But you know – some new threads are started that way
Also, I find there can be a nice interconnectedness to other threads – lately I’ve taken advantage of that – linking a post here to other threads and then going to other threads and linking them back to here. I'm hoping it provides some continuity for someone when a point resonates with them, and they can easily cross-reference to what others said on other threads related to that point.
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T-Bone
104. wierwille’s teaching “the renewed mind” was a tool of manipulation
I quoted item # 103 of why PFAL sucks to make it clear this is a whole different angle – of Romans 12:2, where cult-leaders use it as a manipulative tool. The manipulation hides under the guise of self-improvement – the pseudo-Christian cult-leader bids us to adopt an attitude supposedly in the Bible…we may naturally have a desire to grow, and we assume the cult-leader has our best interests in mind – so by our own efforts we follow their lead.
(*see below DVD extras strategies of manipulative people)
In item #103 I quoted from the latter part of chapter 22, Renewing One’s Mind, out of the orange book PFAL. Now I quote from the first page of the chapter:
What does it mean “to renew one’s mind”? It means to hold The Word in mind and act accordingly.
End of excerpt
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But Romans 12:2 does NOT state “hold The Word in mind and act accordingly.” (* See below in DVD extras for commentaries on Romans 12:2 – it’s about being led by the Holy Spirit as the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ upholds our feeble frame to appropriately respond to God)
wierwille’s usual manner of influence was to authoritatively state a Bible passage and morph it into justifying even the most inappropriate behavior.
When I was in-residence for way corps training, under the pretext of preparing us to provide Christian counseling to believers in even the most unusual situations, wierwille showed us a porn video. Afterwards I think wierwille sensed how shocked and offended many of us were - so he says something along the lines of, “Anything done in the love of God is okay – and I’m doing this out of love to help prepare you for ministering to others…I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.”
For a little more context, this was during my first year in-residence. My wife and I were newbies in-residence (younger corps), we always felt like we had to fit in…so there was that subtle pressure of * groupthink (see below - DVD extras on groupthink and * how following others can mask cognitive dissonance) I never heard of anyone in the younger corps or elder corps complain or voice concerns, doubts or questions about that or any of the other inappropriate things wierwille said or did.
There’s something to that old saying “seeing is believing”. Folks who have never been in the way corps program might have to actually see the dark underbelly of the beast to accept that it really exists.
If you’ve never been in the way corps or around wierwille when he was relaxed, being himself…and occasionally in unguarded moments he would reveal something so dark that you’d think most normal people would usually keep something like that secret - except to maybe a therapist
. Reflecting on those times I see another aspect of wierwille – his inability to exercise good judgment.
It’s been said sometimes you must go through the worst to get to the best. My way corps experience may be a weird variation of that. I had to experience some of the inner workings of The Way International – how wierwille trained his leaders – to get the clearest picture of how a dangerous and deceptive cult qualifies PFAL grads to manage the ministry at all levels…Words would often fail me and feelings of confusion, shame, and guilt would choke what I wanted to communicate to my sponsors – who were all non-corps. I realized even back then – UNLESS THEY HAD SEEN the hypocrisy and abuse by wierwille and upper leadership, they just wouldn’t believe it. So, in letters, phone calls and face-to-face conversations with our sponsors we were reticent in why we said we were leaving TWI – mostly because we were still trying to sort everything out.
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DVD extras
*Excerpts of commentary on Romans 12:2
…By the renewing of your mind.—“The mind” (i.e., the mental faculties, reason, or understanding) is in itself neutral. When informed by an evil principle, it becomes an instrument of evil; when informed by the Spirit, it is an instrument of good. It performs the process of discrimination between good and evil, and so supplies the data to conscience. “The mind” here is not strictly identical with what we now mean by “conscience;” it is, as it were, the rational part of conscience, to which the moral quality needs to be superadded. The “renewed mind,” or the mind acting under the influence of the Spirit, comes very near to “conscience” in the sense in which the word is used by Bishop Butler…
…Note, then, that the foundation of all transformation of character and conduct is laid deep in a renewed mind. Now it is a matter of world-wide experience, verified by each of us in our own case, if we have ever been honest in the attempt, that the power of self-improvement is limited by very narrow bounds. Any man that has ever tried to cure himself of the most trivial habit which he desires to get rid of, or to alter in the slightest degree the set of some strong taste or current of his being, knows how little he can do, even by the most determined effort.
Something may be effected, but, alas! as the proverbs of all nations and all lands have taught us, it is very little indeed. ‘You cannot expel nature with a fork,’ said the Roman. ‘What’s bred in the bone won’t come out of the flesh,’ says the Englishman. ‘Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?’ says the Hebrew. And we all know what the answer to that question is. The problem that is set before a man when you tell him to effect self-improvement is something like that which confronted that poor paralytic lying in the porch at the pool: ‘If you can walk you will be able to get to the pool that will make you able to walk. But you have got to be cured before you can do what you need to do in order to be cured.’
Only one knife can cut the knot. The Gospel of Jesus Christ presents itself, not as a mere republication of morality, not as merely a new stimulus and motive to do what is right, but as an actual communication to men of a new power to work in them, a strong hand laid upon our poor, feeble hand with which we try to put on the brake or to apply the stimulus. It is a new gift of a life which will unfold itself after its own nature, as the bud into flower, and the flower into fruit; giving new desires, tastes, directions, and renewing the whole nature. And so, says Paul, the beginning of transformation of character is the renovation in the very centre of the being, and the communication of a new impulse and power to the inward self…
From: Bible Hub: commentaries Romans 12:2
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*groupthink
In a harmful and controlling cult followers will have a sense of the desire for harmony or conformity in the group. In cults this will result in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation.
Social psychology is the scientific study of how thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are influenced by the real or imagined presence of other people or by social norms. Social psychologists typically explain human behavior as a result of the relationship between mental states and social situations, studying the social conditions under which thoughts, feelings, and behaviors occur, and how these variables influence social interactions.
I adapted the above from Wikipedia: groupthink
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* strategies of manipulative people
The following ae excerpts by Abigail Brenner a board-certified psychiatrist in practice for more than 30 years:
Manipulative people are really not interested in anyone else except for getting them to unwillingly participate in their plans.
Handling a manipulative person requires staying alert, staying in touch with one's own truth, and anticipating what is to come.
Traits of manipulative people include ignoring others' boundaries and avoiding responsibility.
Manipulative people have mastered the art of deception. They may appear respectable and sincere but often that’s just a facade; it's a way to draw you in and ensnare you in a relationship before they show their true colors.
Manipulative people are really not interested in you except as a vehicle to allow them to gain control so that you become an unwilling participant in their plans. They have several ways of doing this, as many of you will recognize. They will often take what you say and do and twist it around so that what you said and did becomes barely recognizable to you. They will attempt to confuse you, maybe even making you feel as if you’re crazy. They distort the truth and may resort to lying if it serves their end.
Manipulative people can play the victim, making you seem to be the one who caused a problem which they began but won’t take responsibility for. They can be passive-aggressive or nice one minute and standoffish the next, to keep you guessing and to prey on your fears and insecurities. They often make you defensive. They can also be extremely aggressive and vicious, resorting to personal attacks and criticism, dogged in their pursuit of getting what they want. They bully and threaten, and won’t let up or let go until they wear you down.
From: Psychology Today: 9 Classic Strategies of Manipulative People_They prey on your best qualities
End of excerpts
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*How following others can mask cognitive dissonance
Excerpts from an article by Matt Wallaert, a behavioral scientist:
…a study on facial feedback and the design is fairly simple. We give people some cartoons to read and then ask them to rate how funny they are. In one condition, they do this while holding a pen in their mouth by the tip with their lips, like a straw. In another, they use their teeth instead.
The trick is that holding a pen by the lips forces their facial muscles into a frowning position, while holding it with their teeth forces a smile. And when they trick themselves into frowning or smiling, it turns out they rate the cartoons as less or more funny accordingly. A related study shows that people tricked into smiling had lower heart rates during stressful tasks and were more likely to emerge feeling positive; it isn’t just perception that changes, it is your actual physical and mental reaction to the situation.
This is because your brain wants what you feel and believe to line up with what you do, avoiding what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. And because actions are tough to adjust in real time (it is hard to deny you were just frowning or smiling) and beliefs are easier, the brain tends to move the beliefs.
From: Review First Round: when grin and bear it isn’t the right answer
End of excerpts
Edited by T-Bonethe renewed mind editor
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