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25 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

interesting observation

reflecting on my TWI-mindset I held for 12 years - in a weird way there's a certain sense of comfort with black-and-white thinking    - one is relieved there's not a whole lot of analyzing to do...rather than sort through multiple viable options, you simply look at two choices - one is right the other is wrong...

I accepted the false dilemmas wierwille presented in PFAL...there's only one way to rightly-divide "The Word" all other ways are wrong...when it comes to "The Word" I have no friends...you can either walk by your 5 senses or go by "The Word"...you can either use worldly logic or the logic of "The Word".

Some people it gives comfort to hand over a high level of control of their lives to someone else.

They can reduce the amount of freedom of will necessary for anything in life by asking others what would be “best” for their lives.

Some could live their entire lives off of Lifelines type quotes above, which are false dilemmas that introduce bondage into the Christian walk.

Rigid thinking produces fragile minds.

I have varied degrees of friends with various views of the Bible and God.

My 5 senses, my brain and my heart help me understand scripture and inspiration comes from the HS.

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13 hours ago, Mike said:

NO, I am not a troll.  I have genuine things to say.  I also listen some.
But as for your speculations: all wrong. (ex-way corps, TWI-clergy, LCM)

Ask Pawtucket.  We met in San Diego around 2006ish at pamsandieg's house, and he gave me a GSC T-shirt

Big deal… wierwille gave me a WOW pin at ROA ‘76. I rode on a golf cart with him and a couple of fellow corps out to pecan trees and he supervised us picking pecans. I served him at the head table in Rome City…but $hit he never gave me a GSC T-Shirt - wierwille what a cheap ba$tard…Mike, you lucky dawg - you got a GSC T-Shirt!!! Damn you’re special…can’t says I blame yah for thinking you’re so much better than me…I just got a crummy WOW pin.

 

and at least you were accepted by Paw. Man, if wierwille ever found out I was in a cult I bet he’d roll over in his grave. wierwille-worshippers around the fountain of living waters would hear a rumbling sound and say “ what the hell was that? A mini-quake?”

do me a big favor just in case the dead are alive now - or you happen to talk to him at your next seance Twig - PLEASE don’t mention anything about me being a cop out and marrying my WOW sister.

Edited by T-Bone
Do the tighten up
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So one area that this worldly logic vs logic of the “Word” stinks to high heaven at the Way is the topic of debt.

Many have tried to introduce the logic of scripture to the Pharisees at Way HQ and been shut down.

Any groups of leaders were separated and not allowed to talk in a group.  Then dissenters were excommunicated as the cults pattern is.

The Way goes first now off of lawyer recommendations and second “the Word”.

Their twisted view of debt is you are not in debt if you sign a year lease which is a 12 month commitment to funds you don’t possess but you are with a mortgage.

Also a car loan is debt but a car lease is not debt.

Being subject to the bondage of Pharisees never makes sense always hurts the person listening and always increases the riches and or control and power of the Pharisee.

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18 minutes ago, chockfull said:

So one area that this worldly logic vs logic of the “Word” stinks to high heaven at the Way is the topic of debt.

Many have tried to introduce the logic of scripture to the Pharisees at Way HQ and been shut down.

Any groups of leaders were separated and not allowed to talk in a group.  Then dissenters were excommunicated as the cults pattern is.

The Way goes first now off of lawyer recommendations and second “the Word”.

Their twisted view of debt is you are not in debt if you sign a year lease which is a 12 month commitment to funds you don’t possess but you are with a mortgage.

Also a car loan is debt but a car lease is not debt.

Being subject to the bondage of Pharisees never makes sense always hurts the person listening and always increases the riches and or control and power of the Pharisee.

It's worse than that. Our monetary system is debt. They have no idea how stupid they really are...which I guess comes with the territory.

https://www.amazon.com/Web-Debt-Shocking-Truth-System/dp/0983330859

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1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I think the Pharisees at the Ways greatest desire is for you and I to have a minimum of freedom of will.  minFW.

They share this desire and mode of operating with most other cults and most dictator regimes in the world.

Exactly !

 

Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities..... Allan Bloom... The Closing of the American Mind

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11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

"There is some consolation for all this harsh minimal-ness. There is a hidden BENEFIT to having less than total freedom, on the spot, to act or decide.

I think, as a culture, going over-board with the ideology of human freedom can sometimes become confusing in issues where freedom needs to come up in practical ways.

The idea that too much freedom can be bad or unsafe is too often automatically rejected.

But in theorizing about the mechanisms of the brain, it’s good to remember that too much spontaneous freedom of thought can be VERY bad. Bad in a practical, everyday sense, that is.

Lots of freedom sounds great for artists, but for survival IS cosmic freedom useful?

We live in a culture with great abundance, compared to most civilizations that came before us. We don’t think through enough about how FW and consciousness must work under much more austere circumstances.

But even logically, shouldn’t a totally “free” thought or action be viewed as dangerous to the thinker? To me it sounds like a great way to lose my place in a complicated set of thoughts. I want solid, immovable markers in my mind as I explore complicated ideas.

A thought, totally uninfluenced and guided by any past experience, may be poetically attractive at first, but WHO’S TO SAY there can be any practical, everyday-life benefit to such a type of freedom? Entropy would predict the opposite!"

====================================

I think it's fascinating to discuss models of culture where personal freedom has been curtailed.  Mrs Wolf's fond of reviewing those- they're all DYSTOPIAS where, somewhere along the line, some idea or ideal was proposed as a cure-all and everything was adjusted to accomodate it... and society as a whole was crushed in response.  Where "people can't think on their own- they need to be told what they should think." -Mrs Wolf.

 

You missed my point about WHAT KIND of restricted freedom should thought of as being good. 

I was talking about BIOLOGICAL freedom restrictions being good, and installed by God, by His design.

You were talking about freedoms artificially restricted by man and his laws and customs. That is a totally different topic, and one where I would agree with you on almost every point.

But biological freedoms are different.  We are biologically restricted from vertical motion with the muscles we have and gravity the way it is. But that's a good thing for survival. The number of ways we can lose our car keys increases exponentially if you consider the vertical dimension.  Survival could be threatened in the sense that parents could lose their babies more easily in 3D space, compared to 2D.  Digestion and circulation problems can occur without gravity, as well as other medical complications that astronauts face.

I gave an example of an employee that can't be trusted due to too much spontaneous thought and behavior, and not enough dialed into the needs of the employer. Too much freedom of thought would be disastrous.

Another benefit of restricted biological freedoms is we can form a GOOD HABIT and keep it intact. We moan and groan about how difficult bad habits are to break, and that is a biological restriction that is not so good, until you consider how useful good habits are.

The survival benefits of freedom of thought can diminish at a certain point, and this must be considered in a theory of the brain. 

Thinking through the survival benefits of some biological restrictions to freedom is new, and we live in a culture that completely rejects it.  I think it is just a bad habit on your part to automatically reject the idea of limited biological freedom providing survival benefits.  Giving new ideas at least a couple of days before summary rejection is a good habit to develop.

 

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1 hour ago, chockfull said:

So one area that this worldly logic vs logic of the “Word” stinks to high heaven at the Way is the topic of debt.

An excellent point right there!

 

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Matthew 10:16

 

Which reminds me of something I’ve looked into more since I left TWI. I vaguely remember someone teaching from that passage – all they said about it was a serpent never lets itself get backed into a corner – the point of the teaching was in light of arguing with someone over “The Word.”

 

Having looked into that passage without the wierwille-filter, I think it has more a general idea of being aware of the dangers in this world and how to quickly avoid them and that we don’t get caught up in or develop our own evil machinations.

Some food for thought from several commentaries on Bible Hub:

As sheep in the midst of wolves.—Nothing can be more striking than the union of this clear foresight of conflict and suffering with the full assurance of victory and sovereignty. The position of the disciples would be as sheep surrounded by a flock of hungry and raging wolves, the wolf being here, as elsewhere in the New Testament, the symbol of the persecutor.

Wise as serpents.—The idea of the serpent as symbolising wisdom, seems to have entered into the early parables of most Eastern nations. We find it in Egyptian temples, in the twined serpents of the rod of Æsculapius and of Hermes, in the serpent-worship of the Turanian races, in the history in Genesis 3 of the serpent that was “more subtle than any beast of the field.” For the most part it appears in Scripture as representing an evil wisdom to be fought with and overcome. Here we learn that even the serpent’s sinuous craft presents something which we may well learn to reproduce. When St. Paul “caught men with guile” (2Corinthians 12:16), becoming “all things to all men” (1Corinthians 9:22), he was acting in the spirit of his Master’s counsels.

Be ye therefore wise as serpents — On the one hand, be so prudent as not to irritate the wicked, and those who shall oppose you, either by your behaviour or your doctrine, unnecessarily, and avoid all unnecessary dangers: and harmless as doves — On the other hand, let not your prudence degenerate into craft, lest it lead you to betray the truth, or to encourage or countenance men in their evil practices; maintain at all times a holy simplicity of soul; and to your prudence join a harmless and inoffensive behaviour, rendering yourselves remarkable for integrity amid the greatest temptations, and for meekness amid the greatest provocations.

 

Be wise as serpents ... - Serpents have always been an emblem of wisdom and cunning, Genesis 3:1. The Egyptians used the serpent in their hieroglyphics as a symbol of wisdom. Probably the thing in which Christ directed his followers to imitate the serpent was in its caution in avoiding danger. No animal equals them in the rapidity and skill which they evince in escaping danger. So said Christ to his disciples, You need caution and wisdom in the midst of a world that will seek your lives. He directs them, also, to be harmless, not to provoke danger, not to do injury, and thus make their fellow-men justly enraged against them. Doves are, and always have been, a striking emblem of innocence. Most people would foolishly destroy a serpent, be it ever so harmless, yet few are so hard-hearted as to kill a dove.

 from: Bible Hub: Matthew 10:16 commentaries

end of excerpts

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1 hour ago, chockfull said:

So one area that this worldly logic vs logic of the “Word” stinks to high heaven at the Way is the topic of debt.

Many have tried to introduce the logic of scripture to the Pharisees at Way HQ and been shut down.

Any groups of leaders were separated and not allowed to talk in a group.  Then dissenters were excommunicated as the cults pattern is.

The Way goes first now off of lawyer recommendations and second “the Word”.

Their twisted view of debt is you are not in debt if you sign a year lease which is a 12 month commitment to funds you don’t possess but you are with a mortgage.

Also a car loan is debt but a car lease is not debt.

Being subject to the bondage of Pharisees never makes sense always hurts the person listening and always increases the riches and or control and power of the Pharisee.

This is an area I think is a legitimate beef against TWI.

I have not followed the details of this, because it never applied to me, but I can see from a distance that TWI got it all wrong on debt and a few other financial things.  This issue is one that I think they are changing on, or already have changed some. 

But I am not happy with simple change that lacks formal documentation.

There are two issues I think TWI needs to get in order with printed policy declarations.

I brought up the idea of ECNs here.  That stands for Engineering Change Notice, and all high tech companies use them. An ECN is a document that is well distributed within the company.  It contains a complete description of the OLD WAY of doing things, and then the NEW WAY of doing things.

I want to see TWI write ECNs for the (1) debt policies and for the (2) old wine-skins policies.

Maybe I can get some help here at GSC in writing up "proposed" ECNs for these two areas. 

What help I need is the documentation of the OLD WAY of doing things.  It must be in print and/or tape, but the old way of doing things needs to be summarized and enough detail kept to totally nail it.
 

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18 minutes ago, Mike said:

Everybody missed a lot of what my theory is all about. I can tell from the errors in the criticisms.

I am clearly talking about biological freedoms and restrictions, and I see it being missed.

Signs Someone Is Trolling

It can sometimes become difficult to tell the difference between a troll and someone who just genuinely wants to argue about a topic. However, here are a few tell-tale signs that someone is actively trolling.

  • Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters.
  • Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.
  • Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.
  • Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others with memes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.
  • Seeming obliviousness: They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.

The list above is by no means definitive. There are a lot of other ways to identify that someone is trolling. Generally, if someone seems disingenuous, uninterested in a real discussion, and provocative on purpose, they’re likely an internet troll.

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12 hours ago, WordWolf said:

As for the IC, yes, the alphabet game, the recordings with the length of the tongue, the natural breaking points and so on, yes, those are all in the IC I took. That was quite a bit of time.  None of that was about "fear removal."

When I led excellors sessions, it was definitely fear that needed to be dealt with the most, even with Intermediate Class grads.  

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15 minutes ago, Mike said:

When I led excellors sessions, it was definitely fear that needed to be dealt with the most, even with Intermediate Class grads.  

Signs Someone Is Trolling

It can sometimes become difficult to tell the difference between a troll and someone who just genuinely wants to argue about a topic. However, here are a few tell-tale signs that someone is actively trolling.

  • Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters.
  • Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.
  • Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.
  • Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others with memes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.
  • Seeming obliviousness: They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.

The list above is by no means definitive. There are a lot of other ways to identify that someone is trolling. Generally, if someone seems disingenuous, uninterested in a real discussion, and provocative on purpose, they’re likely an internet troll.

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12 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Why not lead an excellent mission - quit acting like an incessant troll - ditch the duplicity - grow a real backbone and YOU start a thread and stay on topic

I do not get this ???
Why would starting my own thread be any different? 

Was not this thread "my own" in a sense?  Wasn't the NT Canon also?

I don't get the backbone part at all.

For the canon thread and now the free will one I have been very much on topic, and it was you folks that were always straying.

Could you explain this better?
How will me starting my own thread change anything?

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8 minutes ago, Mike said:

I do not get this ???
Why would starting my own thread be any different? 

Was not this thread "my own" in a sense?  Wasn't the NT Canon also?

I don't get the backbone part at all.

For the canon thread and now the free will one I have been very much on topic, and it was you folks that were always straying.

Could you explain this better?
How will me starting my own thread change anything?

Because you don't understand my postulate...it's the sideways over yonder approach that follows a yabbadabbado structure. Here...lemme repost...

 

Signs Someone Is Trolling

It can sometimes become difficult to tell the difference between a troll and someone who just genuinely wants to argue about a topic. However, here are a few tell-tale signs that someone is actively trolling.

  • Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters.
  • Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.
  • Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.
  • Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others with memes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.
  • Seeming obliviousness: They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.

The list above is by no means definitive. There are a lot of other ways to identify that someone is trolling. Generally, if someone seems disingenuous, uninterested in a real discussion, and provocative on purpose, they’re likely an internet troll.

  •  

 

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57 minutes ago, Mike said:

This is an area I think is a legitimate beef against TWI.

I have not followed the details of this, because it never applied to me, but I can see from a distance that TWI got it all wrong on debt and a few other financial things.  This issue is one that I think they are changing on, or already have changed some. 

But I am not happy with simple change that lacks formal documentation.

There are two issues I think TWI needs to get in order with printed policy declarations.

I brought up the idea of ECNs here.  That stands for Engineering Change Notice, and all high tech companies use them. An ECN is a document that is well distributed within the company.  It contains a complete description of the OLD WAY of doing things, and then the NEW WAY of doing things.

I want to see TWI write ECNs for the (1) debt policies and for the (2) old wine-skins policies.

Maybe I can get some help here at GSC in writing up "proposed" ECNs for these two areas. 

What help I need is the documentation of the OLD WAY of doing things.  It must be in print and/or tape, but the old way of doing things needs to be summarized and enough detail kept to totally nail it.
 

You are traveling down the path that the RnR folks went.  As I’m sure you’ve read those threads it came to the point of submitting a list of suggestions to the Way leadership.

The response was less than stellar.  I think that group was mark and avoided very shortly after appearing in a video together.

The Way is not interested in change.  The Way is interested in whitewashing out all those old Timothy statues supposedly representing Vic sitting in various places.  
 

Another decade later and still the wine runs thru the cracks in the skin.

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12 minutes ago, chockfull said:

You are traveling down the path that the RnR folks went.  As I’m sure you’ve read those threads it came to the point of submitting a list of suggestions to the Way leadership.

The response was less than stellar.  I think that group was mark and avoided very shortly after appearing in a video together.

Wasn't R.R. in charge at the time of the RnR?  I think a lot has changed since then.  I hear a consensus in TWI folks that Rosalie was way too slow at changing things, and that the new management is different.

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46 minutes ago, Mike said:

I do not get this ???
Why would starting my own thread be any different? 

Was not this thread "my own" in a sense?  Wasn't the NT Canon also?

I don't get the backbone part at all.

For the canon thread and now the free will one I have been very much on topic, and it was you folks that were always straying.

Could you explain this better?
How will me starting my own thread change anything?

A backbone is a symbol of strength in character - not being duplicitous; an unwillingness to be used as a tool of deception.

 

 

Starting your own thread would not be any different UNLESS you first ditch the duplicity and stay on topic. the 2nd wave of PFAL has started thread , was a deceitful attempt to once again push your PFAL propaganda! I demolished the validity of PFAL with NUMEROUS detailed and technical posts compared to your flimsy few initial posts that dodged challenges for you to offer proof of your claim.

 

And to burst your bubble of duplicity - on NT canon thread - you were the one who deliberately forwarded untenable and distracting ideas - the bottom-up approach , the asinine ababababab literary structure that says nothing.

 

If you were a person of character…who was ethical…someone with a backbone concerned about truth, facts, what is right…then you wouldn’t act like a troll by dodging, distracting, ignoring evidence, have a dismissive and condescending tone - that would change everything!
 

aren’t you glad you asked :rolleyes:

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18 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

A backbone is a symbol of strength in character - not being duplicitous; an unwillingness to be used as a tool of deception.

Don't you think it takes a backbone to face all the criticism I get here?

Backbones I am familiar with.  But duplicitous?  That doesn't make any sense.

Googled:  Duplicitous is used to describe someone who intentionally misleads people, especially by saying different things to different people or acting in different ways at different times.

And how am I a tool of deception? 

I am focused only on the good we got in PFAL.


 

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