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8 minutes ago, Mike said:

Things get real fuzzy trying to hold others responsible, but it can be done in an approximate sense.  The judicial systems of the world are pretty clumsy, but it's better to have them than to live in anarchy. 

Under wierwille’s reign - he was a law unto himself 

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3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well likely just different types of shonta...

 

3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well likely just different types of shonta...

Whoa...I posted that twice so it's established....:jump:

Edited by OldSkool
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17 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

 

Whoa...I posted that twice so it's established....:jump:

Well…you may be in legal jeopardy- just like when there’s two wills - when there’s two Shontas you can a$$-ume one of them is bound to be contested…bring in the lawyers and may the best Shonta win!

Edited by T-Bone
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5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Well…you may be in legal jeopardy- just like when there’s two wills - when there’s two Shontas you can a$$-ume one of them is bound to be contested…bring in the lawyers and may the best Shonta win!

Holy sheep-shonta...it's the law of bullshonta in full effect! Whoa.

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18 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Holy sheep-shonta...it's the law of bullshonta in full effect! Whoa.

Are you trying to pull the sheep-shonta over my eyes?

 

hey we’re getting close to ho ho relo season…and wierwille said Ba Ba humbug

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55 minutes ago, Mike said:

I see great clarity (regular math?) when I apply Romans 7 to my life, and hold myself responsible for my actions.

Things get real fuzzy trying to hold others responsible, but it can be done in an approximate sense.  The judicial systems of the world are pretty clumsy, but it's better to have them than to live in anarchy. 

Romans 7 is a personal section.  It applies to following after the virtue of the new man nature.

Not meant to be applied to analyze other Christians and their walks.  Only a personal contrast.  In this you could say there is a parallel fable in folklore - the two wolves story from native folklore comes to mind.  What do you feed?

With others the only barometer is God looks on the heart Jesus says look at the fruit.  What is the end result product over time?  No man can escape the harvest of what he has planted.

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

Did you purposely miss the part where I said their attitudes of great irresponsibility disgust me?  Or was that just a sloppy oversight on your part?

Some of the websites that promote the idea of there being no free will tend to attract irresponsible people who seek justification for their behavior.

They are heavily populated with people that argue precisely that:  no blame and no credit. 

The posters that focus on the "no credit" part are often Communists.

Many of them are young, European political activists and they are grinding an axe at the world's judicial systems. Some of them are just misfits and trying to justify their lives of failure.  Very bitter people, and full of glee to find a website that promotes the idea that there is no free will. 

Their motives in debating there is no free will are easy to see, and I find it disgusting.

I do believe in a type of free will
where we are responsible for our behavior,
and we can TRY to hold others
to be similarly responsible. 

 

 

A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.

If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?

After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.

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3 minutes ago, So_crates said:

A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.

If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?

After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.

Right. Everything is caused. Everything. And there is nothing that can be anything other than what it is. This even applies to choices and decisions.

I beleeeve, because it’s very difficult to know, that Mike is talking about a completely different determinism. A mathematical one. One that affects hypothetical trains. One that doesn’t fit like a glove onto this discussion.

And his free will definition, though novel, even cute, is a deeply personal and imaginative one. Again, causing discord in the dialogue.

 

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18 minutes ago, So_crates said:

A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.

If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?

After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.

I think I can agree with every point there.

The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.

My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.

It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.

The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.

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9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Right. Everything is caused. Everything. 

Right, and thank God we have a biological mechanism that has the ability to cause actions that can free us from bad determining causes, by being stronger than the bad causes.

 

Edited by Mike
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6 minutes ago, Mike said:

Right, and thank God we have a biological mechanism that has the ability to cause actions that can free us from bad determining causes, by being stronger than the bad causes.

 

Can this biological mechanism free us  from good determining causes?

Edited by Nathan_Jr
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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think I can agree with every point there.

The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.

My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.

It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.

The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.

So, what you're saying is, even though you can't hold a person responsible because they have no control of self, you will hold a person responsible. An apparent contradiction.

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1 minute ago, So_crates said:

So, what you're saying is, even though you can't hold a person responsible because they have no control of self, you will hold a person responsible. An apparent contradiction.

Yes, that would be a contradiction.

I don't take the position you described.

My position is that it is DIFFICULT to hold someone responsible, that courts can be clumsy, but that it should be attempted anyway. 

It has never been my position that "they have no control of self." 
That is just the opposite of my position.

Where are you getting these erroneous takes on my position?

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15 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think I can agree with every point there.

It's refreshing to see you agree with someone besides yourself...

 

So basically you have a theory that u like and everything else must fit into that theory...wierwillian practices 101. You really don't see how bad twi thinking is crippling your critical thinking skills or lack thereof.

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19 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think I can agree with every point there.

The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.

My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.

It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.

The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.

FYI to all Grease Spotters, I saw a bunch of holes in this post of Mike’s – and I almost responded with constructive criticism and/or corrections – but caught myself mid-draft and decided not to – on the sneaky suspicion that Mike is inclined to be lazy, I tend to think he’s just throwing a hodge-podge of bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms against the wall to see what sticks ( usually it doesn’t ) and reformulates some of the bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms according to feedback/input he gets from Grease Spotters. Woe is me – I feel so used.  :cryhug_1_:  there there T-Bone, no sense in playing the victim card - nobody cares  :biglaugh:      :biglaugh:     :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:

 

Edited by T-Bone
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Just now, OldSkool said:

It's refreshing to see you agree with someone besides yourself...

So basically you have a theory that u like and everything else must fit into that theory...wierwillian practices 101. You really don't see how bad twi thinking is crippling your critical thinking skills or lack thereof.

I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions),  and I thankfully avoided most of that.

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4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, that would be a contradiction.

I don't take the position you described.

My position is that it is DIFFICULT to hold someone responsible, that courts can be clumsy, but that it should be attempted anyway. 

It has never been my position that "they have no control of self." 
That is just the opposite of my position.

Where are you getting these erroneous takes on my position?

So, if the universe is as deterministic as you claim, how do you have control of self?

This contradicts what you said earlier, that every response is the result of something earlier.

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3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Is it possible to break a GOOD habit?  Yes.

you  coming here for 20 years with your PFAL schtick makes me think it's darn near impossible to break really bad habits

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4 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions),  and I thankfully avoided most of that.

No u didn't. Your posts prove that. You really do not have a clear picture of yourself and the things affecting you. A little leaven leaveneth the entire lump. Your in denial.

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3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions),  and I thankfully avoided most of that.

I beg to differ - the way corps Nazi training camp was created and run by mini-Hitler wierwille

No PFAL for you till lunch time!

 

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