What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth.
Total and comlete wierwillian BS. Fellings=sincerity=which is no garuantee for truth.
There is nothing wrapped up. You just showed how petty you truly are to come over to another thread and assume some type of moral victory because Raf posted something that you agree with?
I did not come over to this thread BECAUSE Raf posted that. I came over here because that was the SECOND time he posted the same idea.
I wonder if anyone even saw the first time. It was way back on page 7, and much shorter.
This latest expansion of his common sense approach was so overwhelming, that I think I ought to leave you folks to re-group over there without me distracting the process.
I'll watch how you all do, getting your act together, because as Raf pointed out with strong logic, you folks pretending like the Ascension didn't really happen had your heads in the sand for the whole thread.
I feel the thread is done.Everything I was saying in the common sense category, Raf said better, so why should I continue. If you don't believe him, a MOST neutral arbiter, then you won't believe anything I say.Besides I feel I said all I could say there.It's done in my mind, except if you folks drift back into "He's not really gone" again.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
What, is Raf the way corps type authority that just forbid discussion of a topic because it disagrees with the rightly divided words of wierwille?
–Raf did not forbid me anything. He is a paragon of free speech over "convenient speech" unlike some of the regular posters who openly talk of wanting me banned by the admins.
He said he wanted to re-boot and he did. He said he wanted to see it a little less "mikeish" and I am accommodating him by leaving.
But don't worry; I am not 100% absent from that thread. I will be watching and may return.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Obviously, if Raf is making a thread a little less Mikish it isnt something thats happening in your favor....
Obvious to whom?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Just because Raf joined the discussion doesn't mean its over or that we are now bullied into Raf's position because he is a moderator. This isnt the way international. But thanks for showing once again that you really are operating from a factional perspective and truly are petty betty with your gotcha bullshonta attitudes.
–Hey, if it lowers my petty rating I'll allow you to come over here and berate me. That's all you wanted to do over there in that thread.
I think you ought to think long and hard about everything he said.
I think if you look hard for us being taught in classes and the collaterals, you wont find that teaching. What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth.
Another area where we should suppress our emotions is when we are trying to make a complex, difficult decision on important matters, especially if it involves asking for revelation.
Outside of that feelings and sincerity are WONDERFUL!
But that is not what the Corps led TVTs taught us. For the sake of Corps discipline, feelings and sincerity were OVERLY suppressed in the verbal traditions that developed.
THAT is how we were taught to suppress our humanity in TWI. It was not the collaterals that were responsible for that.
This is absolute nonsense, Mike. This concept of "feelings come and go" is laced throughout the entire PFAL series of classes, beginning with the foundational class. It's really a pity your hatred of the Way Corps, as well as a hatred of verbally communicated lessons, has blinded you to reality. I challenge you to present some sort of concrete evidence that the written materials promote a healthy attitude toward emotions. Take your time. I can wait.
This is absolute nonsense, Mike. This concept of "feelings come and go" is laced throughout the entire PFAL series of classes, beginning with the foundational class.
-Let's find it then. I think when we do you will see that the context is feelings can't be trusted in matters of doctrines and decisions on the Word. Start brainstorming where such teachings are in the class and collaterals, come up with some buzz phrases, and we can search the materials to see if you memory is correct. I think the garbage part is in the TVTs, not the collaterals or class.
*/*/*/*
It's really a pity your hatred of the Way Corps, as well as a hatred of verbally communicated lessons, has blinded you to reality.
-Nope. It is when and where the Corps went off the Word with their verbal additions to the collaterals that I hate, just like I hate when VPW went off. I think it is your hate for VPW that is blinding you. I think the Corps was an overall good program, and most of the graduates are fine people who learned and apply lots of good things. Now compare that statement with the hate for VPW that blinds you.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
I challenge you to present some sort of concrete evidence that the written materials promote a healthy attitude toward emotions. Take your time. I can wait.
-Fine. Another essay assignment. I'll wait til I get a good feeling about the assignment.
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
His fangs come out in full when he is challenged to support HIS position...which usually ends with him telling us to look at wierwilles books....his true agenda
What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth.
Other than wierwille or you who say
“…Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth” are there any normal people who believe that? Where does it teach that in the Bible?
I imagine if one’s conscience was seared with a hot iron - as wierwille’s apparently was to consistently commit unconscionable acts - he probably wasn’t able to discern truth even when it hit him over the head with a 2 by 4!
These kind of statements you make lead me to believe you are incapable of discerning truth from lies and fact from fiction. Who are you - really?!?! You defend your father in the word salad of lies and delusions. Are you originally from the real world? I guess it never occurred to you that you have no credibility here. Maybe having the sensitivity of a brick wall impaired your discernment- just a wild guess anyway.
Feelings are part of the whole person! Feelings determine how we respond to truth. II Corinthians 7:10 says godly sorrow leads one to repentance…oh my gosh! Gone full circle here - back to 2nd paragraph - apparently wierwille never felt godly sorrow because he never repented of his unconscionable acts. If he had he would have brought forth fruit of repentance - that John the Baptist talked about in Matthew 3:8 - fruit that God and EVERYBODY would see!!!!
I think if you look hard for us being taught widespread emotion suppression in classes and the collaterals, you wont find that kind of teaching.
What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth.
Another area where we should suppress our emotions is when we are trying to make a complex, difficult decision on important matters, especially if it involves asking for revelation.
Outside of that feelings and sincerity are WONDERFUL!
But that is not what the Corps led TVTs taught us. For the sake of Corps discipline, feelings and sincerity were OVERLY suppressed in the verbal traditions that developed. It leaked out to us non-Corps as well.
THAT is how we were taught to suppress our humanity in TWI. It was not the collaterals that were responsible for that.
Funny I just don’t see that playing out in Jesus life and example in any fashion. He portrayed a lot of emotion as well as sharp logic.
What I most certainly do see suppressed all the time is common logic due to emotional attachment.
When you make a habit of suppressing things it leaks out in other areas.
But that is not what the Corps led TVTs taught us. For the sake of Corps discipline, feelings and sincerity were OVERLY suppressed in the verbal traditions that developed. It leaked out to us non-Corps as well.
THAT is how we were taught to suppress our humanity in TWI. It was not the collaterals that were responsible for that.
Ah but it WAS the collaterals, PFAL, the programs WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps, etc., that taught us to ignore feelings...to suppress intuition...to disengage cognitive skills - -
BECAUSE (drum roll please )
itALL was derived from the malignant narcissistic-deluded-morally depraved-hypocritical-megalomaniacal-money worshipping mind of victor paul wierwille – a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leader extraordinaire! (drum roll finishes with crash cymbals and the backup band does a big Tah-Dah )
Something that is always puzzling to me is the contempt that Mike exhibits toward the way corps. Mike was NEVERin the way corps so it always baffles me how he finds the audacity to speak so authoritatively about them.
One theory I have suggests that Mike was enviousof the intimate relation he imagined way corps had with their “father in the Word”, wierwille.
Afterall the way corps program was wierwille’s creation.
Did Mike have a resentful longing aroused by the way corps’ immediate access to “the man of God”?
Did Mike have some kind of mental anguish - the pain of a bitter awareness that the way corps had the advantage of ‘learning at the feet of another apostle Paul for this day and time and hour’ ?
The image of a street urchin peeking in the window of what appears to be a tight-knit family comes to mind. I guess from the outside a cult of personalitycan look like that.
In truth the way corps program was a clone factory. Maybe this was not the intention when the program was set up but it seems to me the whole thing wound up being a means of creating an idealized or somewhat worshipful idea of a leader – victor paul wierwille…in other words a cult of personality.
~ ~ ~ ~
We learned in the way corps to have complete confidence in everything wierwille wrote, said or did…I know in the Bible we are told to imitate the faith of godly leaders. But what if one fails to discern a counterfeit?I thought of passages like Matthew 7 and II Peter 2 . If there’s anything to verses like that, then it’s possible that false teachers can lead people astray.
After leaving TWI, I’ve often wondered if there’s a point where fervent admiration for someone crosses the line. I would think of verses like Ezekiel 14:3 that talks of people setting up idols in their heart – if it’s in my heart, it’s invisible – no one else knows there’s an idol in my heart – perhaps even I wouldn’t realize it… I think a lot of people really believed inwierwille – and believed he could do no wrong…
To be fair, even if a person is a godly leader, we can turn them into an idol when we cease to imitate their example of faith in God and instead make them the object of our faith. But looking back without the way-blinders on, it’s obvious to me now that wierwille wasn’t a godly leader – he lacked the moral uprightness and was lost in delusions of grandeur.
For dedicated followers like the way corps, wierwille taught us to shun the status quo or conventional wisdom while at the same time making it clear that his authoritywas not to be challenged. Teachings on blind obediencewere common in residence.
~ ~ ~ ~
Recalling my time in residence, it was extremely laser-focused on knowing The Power For Abundant Living class material backwards and forwards. I am NOT exaggerating! During the three meals we had each day in the dining room, we were randomly called upon to give a five-minute teaching - right there on the spot – and immediately critiqued right after that. Even back then I was disturbed by one fact (which at the time was another one of those things I relegated to the back burner) - that people who quoted PFAL material verbatim or with very little deviation from that, received the highest praise with little or no criticism... In preparation for doing our research papers – which I suppose is one of the academic highlights of a college education – the current president L. Craig Martindale – (I can still remember him as he ) was pounding on the podium and bellowing out “Don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…looking back now – do you know what all that tells me? The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille.
~ ~ ~ ~
If you were or are in the way corps, or presently you are going through the training program…or even if you’re thinking about going in the way corps or you have sponsored or currently sponsor someone in the way corps program you ought to check out the book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International on Grease Spot Café the author goes by the name Penworks. She also started a thread about her book - click here .
She worked in the research department ofTWI. There’s some very revealing stuff in there about the shady inner workings of The Way International, how the precarious mythology of wierwille – like the story of him hearing God’s voice – is an unreliable basis for a belief system and the intellectual and emotional frustration we all experience within the TWI-mindset.
One of the big takeaways of the book - in my opinion - is how wierwille who was supposedly so concerned about “the integrity and accuracy of The Word” had no qualms about pressuring the research department to mistranslatea Greek word so it would ‘validate’ what he thought a passage should say…hmmmm… what about his dictum “ private interpretation of the Bible is not allowed“? I guess it’s okay for wierwille to do that.
And while you're thinking about ordering Penworks’ book you could always do some light reading of another thread started by PenworksEvidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps
Try to read these newsletters as if you didn't know who wierwille or TWI was. I wonder if you would be as shocked as I was when you remove the PFAL filter and see how narcissistic, manipulative, and mean-spirited he was and what a berating personality he had – evidenced by his own words to the way corps - his most devoted followers...Of course, if you're already disappointed way corps this stuff is not new to you - but if you're not - perhaps you're seeing wierwille in a different light for the first time. Sorry to put you through that - sometimes truth hurts.
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
I already started researching it.
But IMO, there's no "if" about what the printed materials say.I’ve seen this before, and am going on pretty good memory.
But I often find with you and with me and with all grads, that our memories are not good enough for this important work.
I often find that the books were not as thoroughly committed to memory,compared to how many of us fairly well memorized the film class soundtrack.But with the books, lots of things we forgot; lots of things we weren’t ready to get at all, and many times we failed to see the refinements that took place, when the books (PFAL & RHST) were produced.
Example: hardly anyone noticed (including me) that the “red drapes” did not make it in the final cut.There is no red drapes story in the PFAL book.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Soooo, I already went back to the book.I am doing a digital search on sincerity, sincere, feelings, and whatever buzz phrases hit me later.
So far, as I can see I am 100% correct, but I want to thoroughly search the book.
I have only briefly visually scanned the texts, so far, but they back up what I was saying. But I have only begun this PROJECT.If you include this introduction, it could be more than an essay in no time.Maybe even start a new thread?“Sincerity and Feelings – when good? When bad?”
*/*/*/*
It COULD BE that the book deleted some of the film class transcript’s material on these topics. That happened often.
That transcript search will be more difficult, for several reasons, but eventually I can get to it.Buzz words and phrases are FAR more important when searching the transcript than the book.If anyone wants to participate in this, feed me buzz words.
A human visual scan (by me) of all the collateral chapters will be included. I could use suggestions here too.
The transcript may contain outright error or some wording that looks too misleading. If so, these would be deleted from the book.
It may very well be that some of the later garbage TVT teachings on feelings and sincerity were based in the comparatively more crude versions of VPW’s teaching on sincerity and feelings in the film class.
This very phenomenon is one of the BIG reasons VPW told top leadership that they needed to master the class and the materials that come with it, which are the collaterals.He didn’t say “master the transcript” but he did say master the class and the books.
There was a NEED for top leadership (who mostly matured before the collaterals were finished) to master the refined versions of the PFAL teachings in printed form.They thought that they had mastered the rough version, the audio soundtrack, and that was enough for them.It wasn’t enough.There were BIG changes from film to book.
It will be real interesting to see all that the transcript reveals.
Meanwhile all that the book and other collaterals offer is going to take some time to gather and process.
Yeah, this is far more than an essay.It could be a collateral booklet in ITSELF !(just kidding)
But IMO, there's no "if" about what the printed materials say.I’ve seen this before, and am going on pretty good memory.
But I often find with you and with me and with all grads, that our memories are not good enough for this important work.
I often find that the books were not as thoroughly committed to memory,compared to how many of us fairly well memorized the film class soundtrack.But with the books, lots of things we forgot; lots of things we weren’t ready to get at all, and many times we failed to see the refinements that took place, when the books (PFAL & RHST) were produced.
Example: hardly anyone noticed (including me) that the “red drapes” did not make it in the final cut.There is no red drapes story in the PFAL book.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Soooo, I already went back to the book.I am doing a digital search on sincerity, sincere, feelings, and whatever buzz phrases hit me later.
So far, as I can see I am 100% correct, but I want to thoroughly search the book.
I have only briefly visually scanned the texts, so far, but they back up what I was saying. But I have only begun this PROJECT.If you include this introduction, it could be more than an essay in no time.Maybe even start a new thread?“Sincerity and Feelings – when good? When bad?”
*/*/*/*
It COULD BE that the book deleted some of the film class transcript’s material on these topics. That happened often.
That transcript search will be more difficult, for several reasons, but eventually I can get to it.Buzz words and phrases are FAR more important when searching the transcript than the book.If anyone wants to participate in this, feed me buzz words.
A human visual scan (by me) of all the collateral chapters will be included. I could use suggestions here too.
The transcript may contain outright error or some wording that looks too misleading. If so, these would be deleted from the book.
It may very well be that some of the later garbage TVT teachings on feelings and sincerity were based in the comparatively more crude versions of VPW’s teaching on sincerity and feelings in the film class.
This very phenomenon is one of the BIG reasons VPW told top leadership that they needed to master the class and the materials that come with it, which are the collaterals.He didn’t say “master the transcript” but he did say master the class and the books.
There was a NEED for top leadership (who mostly matured before the collaterals were finished) to master the refined versions of the PFAL teachings in printed form.They thought that they had mastered the rough version, the audio soundtrack, and that was enough for them.It wasn’t enough.There were BIG changes from film to book.
It will be real interesting to see all that the transcript reveals.
Meanwhile all that the book and other collaterals offer is going to take some time to gather and process.
Yeah, this is far more than an essay.It could be a collateral booklet in ITSELF !(just kidding)
All those words and you still produce absolutely nothing! Laughing stock type stuff here.
Sincerity is a good thing, but not good enough to guarantee truth. It is good enough to help (among other factors) drive a person to the truth. The only way to get a guarantee for truth is directly from the Father. I sincerly seek His approval, and not men's.
Most people find comfort in tradition to guarantee "their truth." If enough people, for a long enough time, believe something then it SEEMS safe. What's YOUR guarantee for truth?
***
I don't know if it was revelation or not for Craig to be king. I do know God preferred that Israel NOT have a king, and ditto for us. God rarely gets His way with people's cooperation, so He uses plan B.
It looks from the tape that maybe it was a BOT decision. I don't know for sure. I do know that God held his nose and had Saul anointed, and then later had to abandon him. It looks like that's what happened with Craig, revelation or not.
***
We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.
He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.
What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.
This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.
What is the spirit realm except a fantasy where cowards hide? . . . Like hiding behind a book in class, if I can't see the teacher, then they can't see me
1 hour ago, waysider said:
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
His fangs come out in full when he is challenged to support HIS position...which usually ends with him telling us to look at wierwilles books....his true agenda
As usual, your drama is misrepresenting, and your mind reading of me has misled you. I am making progress in searching for data. I was thinking we’d do this together; join us in getting to the bottom of where the rotten attitudes toward sincerity and feelings originated and was promoted. -
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outandabout
I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught
WordWolf
It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after havi
chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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OldSkool
Total and comlete wierwillian BS. Fellings=sincerity=which is no garuantee for truth.
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Mike
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Mike
You just repeated my point. They are NOT good for truth guarantees, but fine in other settings.
Looks to me like you still don't get the distinction. They are good some times but bad at other times. Finding truth is the bad time for feelings.
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waysider
This is absolute nonsense, Mike. This concept of "feelings come and go" is laced throughout the entire PFAL series of classes, beginning with the foundational class. It's really a pity your hatred of the Way Corps, as well as a hatred of verbally communicated lessons, has blinded you to reality. I challenge you to present some sort of concrete evidence that the written materials promote a healthy attitude toward emotions. Take your time. I can wait.
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OldSkool
Yeah, I repeated it in order to call it BS.
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Mike
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waysider
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
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OldSkool
His fangs come out in full when he is challenged to support HIS position...which usually ends with him telling us to look at wierwilles books....his true agenda
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T-Bone
Other than wierwille or you who say
“…Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth” are there any normal people who believe that? Where does it teach that in the Bible?
I imagine if one’s conscience was seared with a hot iron - as wierwille’s apparently was to consistently commit unconscionable acts - he probably wasn’t able to discern truth even when it hit him over the head with a 2 by 4!
These kind of statements you make lead me to believe you are incapable of discerning truth from lies and fact from fiction. Who are you - really?!?! You defend your father in the word salad of lies and delusions. Are you originally from the real world? I guess it never occurred to you that you have no credibility here. Maybe having the sensitivity of a brick wall impaired your discernment- just a wild guess anyway.
Feelings are part of the whole person! Feelings determine how we respond to truth. II Corinthians 7:10 says godly sorrow leads one to repentance…oh my gosh! Gone full circle here - back to 2nd paragraph - apparently wierwille never felt godly sorrow because he never repented of his unconscionable acts. If he had he would have brought forth fruit of repentance - that John the Baptist talked about in Matthew 3:8 - fruit that God and EVERYBODY would see!!!!
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chockfull
Funny I just don’t see that playing out in Jesus life and example in any fashion. He portrayed a lot of emotion as well as sharp logic.
What I most certainly do see suppressed all the time is common logic due to emotional attachment.
When you make a habit of suppressing things it leaks out in other areas.
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chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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So_crates
You mean like that feeling of elation you got when you thought Raf supported your position? No guarantee for truth, right?
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So_crates
So, Mike, where's you believing? If you believe people will berate you...
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So_crates
Says the guy that reads a post until he finds something disagreeable then he stops reading.
Just where do YOU get off telling anybody to think long and hard about anything?
I think you ought to think long and hard about that.
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T-Bone
Ah but it WAS the collaterals, PFAL, the programs WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps, etc., that taught us to ignore feelings...to suppress intuition...to disengage cognitive skills - -
BECAUSE (drum roll please )
it ALL was derived from the malignant narcissistic-deluded-morally depraved-hypocritical-megalomaniacal-money worshipping mind of victor paul wierwille – a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leader extraordinaire ! (drum roll finishes with crash cymbals and the backup band does a big Tah-Dah )
Something that is always puzzling to me is the contempt that Mike exhibits toward the way corps. Mike was NEVER in the way corps so it always baffles me how he finds the audacity to speak so authoritatively about them.
One theory I have suggests that Mike was envious of the intimate relation he imagined way corps had with their “father in the Word”, wierwille.
Afterall the way corps program was wierwille’s creation.
Did Mike have a resentful longing aroused by the way corps’ immediate access to “the man of God”?
Did Mike have some kind of mental anguish - the pain of a bitter awareness that the way corps had the advantage of ‘learning at the feet of another apostle Paul for this day and time and hour’ ?
The image of a street urchin peeking in the window of what appears to be a tight-knit family comes to mind. I guess from the outside a cult of personality can look like that.
In truth the way corps program was a clone factory. Maybe this was not the intention when the program was set up but it seems to me the whole thing wound up being a means of creating an idealized or somewhat worshipful idea of a leader – victor paul wierwille…in other words a cult of personality.
~ ~ ~ ~
We learned in the way corps to have complete confidence in everything wierwille wrote, said or did…I know in the Bible we are told to imitate the faith of godly leaders. But what if one fails to discern a counterfeit? I thought of passages like Matthew 7 and II Peter 2 . If there’s anything to verses like that, then it’s possible that false teachers can lead people astray.
After leaving TWI, I’ve often wondered if there’s a point where fervent admiration for someone crosses the line. I would think of verses like Ezekiel 14:3 that talks of people setting up idols in their heart – if it’s in my heart, it’s invisible – no one else knows there’s an idol in my heart – perhaps even I wouldn’t realize it… I think a lot of people really believed in wierwille – and believed he could do no wrong…
To be fair, even if a person is a godly leader, we can turn them into an idol when we cease to imitate their example of faith in God and instead make them the object of our faith. But looking back without the way-blinders on, it’s obvious to me now that wierwille wasn’t a godly leader – he lacked the moral uprightness and was lost in delusions of grandeur.
For dedicated followers like the way corps, wierwille taught us to shun the status quo or conventional wisdom while at the same time making it clear that his authority was not to be challenged. Teachings on blind obedience were common in residence.
~ ~ ~ ~
Recalling my time in residence, it was extremely laser-focused on knowing The Power For Abundant Living class material backwards and forwards. I am NOT exaggerating! During the three meals we had each day in the dining room, we were randomly called upon to give a five-minute teaching - right there on the spot – and immediately critiqued right after that. Even back then I was disturbed by one fact (which at the time was another one of those things I relegated to the back burner) - that people who quoted PFAL material verbatim or with very little deviation from that, received the highest praise with little or no criticism... In preparation for doing our research papers – which I suppose is one of the academic highlights of a college education – the current president L. Craig Martindale – (I can still remember him as he ) was pounding on the podium and bellowing out “Don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…looking back now – do you know what all that tells me? The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille.
~ ~ ~ ~
If you were or are in the way corps, or presently you are going through the training program…or even if you’re thinking about going in the way corps or you have sponsored or currently sponsor someone in the way corps program you ought to check out the book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International on Grease Spot Café the author goes by the name Penworks. She also started a thread about her book - click here .
She worked in the research department of TWI. There’s some very revealing stuff in there about the shady inner workings of The Way International, how the precarious mythology of wierwille – like the story of him hearing God’s voice – is an unreliable basis for a belief system and the intellectual and emotional frustration we all experience within the TWI-mindset.
One of the big takeaways of the book - in my opinion - is how wierwille who was supposedly so concerned about “the integrity and accuracy of The Word” had no qualms about pressuring the research department to mistranslate a Greek word so it would ‘validate’ what he thought a passage should say…hmmmm… what about his dictum “ private interpretation of the Bible is not allowed “? I guess it’s okay for wierwille to do that.
And while you're thinking about ordering Penworks’ book you could always do some light reading of another thread started by Penworks Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps
Try to read these newsletters as if you didn't know who wierwille or TWI was. I wonder if you would be as shocked as I was when you remove the PFAL filter and see how narcissistic, manipulative, and mean-spirited he was and what a berating personality he had – evidenced by his own words to the way corps - his most devoted followers...Of course, if you're already disappointed way corps this stuff is not new to you - but if you're not - perhaps you're seeing wierwille in a different light for the first time. Sorry to put you through that - sometimes truth hurts.
…anyway…what was I going to say?
Oh yeah Mike, you didn’t miss much.
See also
Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
that's all for now, folks
Edited by T-BoneEmoji-fied - or did he mean Emoji-fried?
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Mike
I already started researching it.
But IMO, there's no "if" about what the printed materials say. I’ve seen this before, and am going on pretty good memory.
But I often find with you and with me and with all grads, that our memories are not good enough for this important work.
I often find that the books were not as thoroughly committed to memory, compared to how many of us fairly well memorized the film class soundtrack. But with the books, lots of things we forgot; lots of things we weren’t ready to get at all, and many times we failed to see the refinements that took place, when the books (PFAL & RHST) were produced.
Example: hardly anyone noticed (including me) that the “red drapes” did not make it in the final cut. There is no red drapes story in the PFAL book.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Soooo, I already went back to the book. I am doing a digital search on sincerity, sincere, feelings, and whatever buzz phrases hit me later.
So far, as I can see I am 100% correct, but I want to thoroughly search the book.
I have only briefly visually scanned the texts, so far, but they back up what I was saying. But I have only begun this PROJECT. If you include this introduction, it could be more than an essay in no time. Maybe even start a new thread? “Sincerity and Feelings – when good? When bad?”
*/*/*/*
It COULD BE that the book deleted some of the film class transcript’s material on these topics. That happened often.
That transcript search will be more difficult, for several reasons, but eventually I can get to it. Buzz words and phrases are FAR more important when searching the transcript than the book. If anyone wants to participate in this, feed me buzz words.
A human visual scan (by me) of all the collateral chapters will be included. I could use suggestions here too.
The transcript may contain outright error or some wording that looks too misleading. If so, these would be deleted from the book.
It may very well be that some of the later garbage TVT teachings on feelings and sincerity were based in the comparatively more crude versions of VPW’s teaching on sincerity and feelings in the film class.
This very phenomenon is one of the BIG reasons VPW told top leadership that they needed to master the class and the materials that come with it, which are the collaterals. He didn’t say “master the transcript” but he did say master the class and the books.
There was a NEED for top leadership (who mostly matured before the collaterals were finished) to master the refined versions of the PFAL teachings in printed form. They thought that they had mastered the rough version, the audio soundtrack, and that was enough for them. It wasn’t enough. There were BIG changes from film to book.
It will be real interesting to see all that the transcript reveals.
Meanwhile all that the book and other collaterals offer is going to take some time to gather and process.
Yeah, this is far more than an essay. It could be a collateral booklet in ITSELF ! (just kidding)
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OldSkool
All those words and you still produce absolutely nothing! Laughing stock type stuff here.
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Rocky
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
— Thomas Paine
This is for Mike AND everyone who engages with him.
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Mike
I am sincerely researching "sincerity" and found the e old post below in the archives at:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/7824-revelation/page/3/#comment-190737
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Mike
Posted
Outin88,
Sincerity is a good thing, but not good enough to guarantee truth. It is good enough to help (among other factors) drive a person to the truth. The only way to get a guarantee for truth is directly from the Father. I sincerly seek His approval, and not men's.
Most people find comfort in tradition to guarantee "their truth." If enough people, for a long enough time, believe something then it SEEMS safe. What's YOUR guarantee for truth?
***
I don't know if it was revelation or not for Craig to be king. I do know God preferred that Israel NOT have a king, and ditto for us. God rarely gets His way with people's cooperation, so He uses plan B.
It looks from the tape that maybe it was a BOT decision. I don't know for sure. I do know that God held his nose and had Saul anointed, and then later had to abandon him. It looks like that's what happened with Craig, revelation or not.
***
We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.
He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.
What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.
This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.
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Bolshevik
Truth can be guaranteed?
What is the spirit realm except a fantasy where cowards hide? . . . Like hiding behind a book in class, if I can't see the teacher, then they can't see me
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So_crates
You got this backwards. YOU were the one arguing for the absent Christ. The others were arguing for a personal relationship.
So, what YOU think Saint Vic taught about the absent Christ is wrong. YOU were thinking of oral tradition, which is woefully in error.
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Mike
I think that is one-half of the spirit realm, and the temporary half.
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Mike
OldSkool
1 hour ago, waysider said:
Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner.
His fangs come out in full when he is challenged to support HIS position...which usually ends with him telling us to look at wierwilles books....his true agenda
As usual, your drama is misrepresenting, and your mind reading of me has misled you. I am making progress in searching for data. I was thinking we’d do this together; join us in getting to the bottom of where the rotten attitudes toward sincerity and feelings originated and was promoted. -
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