Wow even more critical content on even more mainstream web sources.
Maybe instead of a research department they should start a whack-a-mole department to refute all of these public places that don’t have the right spin on their cult doctrine.
The articles definition of a cult would apply to many organizations:
1. Deny the diety of JC
2. Good works do not get you to heaven.
Much of the article references certain religious beliefs the author believes must be adhered to in order for a group not to be classified as a cult. According to him all religions rhat don’t have JC as the center are a cult, which describes Jews, Muslims, and many other faiths.
To me one cannot use this article alone to classify TWI as a cult, without throwing in most of the world’s religions. I would certainly be thrown to the wolves as a cultist.
The articles definition of a cult would apply to many organizations:
1. Deny the diety of JC
2. Good works do not get you to heaven.
Much of the article references certain religious beliefs the author believes must be adhered to in order for a group not to be classified as a cult. According to him all religions rhat don’t have JC as the center are a cult, which describes Jews, Muslims, and many other faiths.
To me one cannot use this article alone to classify TWI as a cult, without throwing in most of the world’s religions. I would certainly be thrown to the wolves as a cultist.
If you read the link Chockful provided their definition of cult is much broader than that. You're describing a subset of cults they refer to in a Christian context.
You're describing a subset of cults they refer to in a Christian context.
Exactly. Cults come in all sorts of varieties, some religion based and some not. One particular cult that comes to mind is a collection of motorcycle enthusiasts, who exist for reasons far beyond the shear joy of feeling the wind in their faces, as they cruise the open road. Their name, however, is derived from common words associated with religion.
Exactly. Cults come in all sorts of varieties, some religion based and some not. One particular cult that comes to mind is a collection of motorcycle enthusiasts, who exist for reasons far beyond the shear joy of feeling the wind in their faces, as they cruise the open road. Their name, however, is derived from common words associated with religion.
The definition they provide includes the word distortion. Using the word distortion implies misleading others.
The articles definition of a cult would apply to many organizations:
1. Deny the diety of JC
2. Good works do not get you to heaven.
Much of the article references certain religious beliefs the author believes must be adhered to in order for a group not to be classified as a cult. According to him all religions rhat don’t have JC as the center are a cult, which describes Jews, Muslims, and many other faiths.
To me one cannot use this article alone to classify TWI as a cult, without throwing in most of the world’s religions. I would certainly be thrown to the wolves as a cultist.
Stayed Too Long, you’re notwrong in your opinion– and this may be one of those instances of folks looking at the same thing from a different viewpoint. I’m quoting an excerpt from the same article and here’s what stood out to me:
Various chilling accounts written by former members of The Way describe brainwashing, manipulation and control of followers, and sexual perversion and adultery that become increasingly more drastic toward the upper echelons of the organization. Like many cults, The Way marks those who appear not to agree with the cult or who fail to obey unquestioningly and purges them. Those who are purged are avoided and escorted off The Way campuses and utterly ignored, even by longtime friends.
Also as in many cults, the followers of The Way are lured into the group by the friendliness and acceptance they experience upon meeting The Way members. This is simply a marketing technique used by The Way International to gather followers, not genuine friendship. Although many of the followers of The Way are well-meaning people, they are deceived and they are deceiving others. Its members may describe their meetings, at first, as “home-churches” or “discussion groups.” It is always best to check to see what, if any, church or organization a home church is affiliated with and examine their statement of faith or mission statement before becoming involved.
What jumps out to me in that article is that when it comes to determining whether a cult is harmful and controlling– It’s important to look at their methods and practicesrather than theirstatements of belief…
Looking at TWI’s website, their statement of beliefs and articles appear benign and Christian-like…But as a lot of us on Grease Spot Café know, that’s just a cover. They are a pseudo-Christianharmful and controlling cult – a challenging counterfeit.
~ ~ ~ ~
I’ve tried to get in the habit of referring to The Way International as a harmful and controlling cult. As Waysider expressed - there’s a wide variety of cults and not all are necessarily religious or manipulative and detrimental to the follower. For example, The Rocky Horror Picture Show’s famous audience participation was inspired, in part, by boredom. The Rocky Horror Picture Show was a flop when it was originally released in 1975, but as midnight showings continued, it developed a rabid cult following with a penchant for shouting at the screen as the film played.
You know what would be funny - imagine some new students who still have their wits about them - midway through taking PFAL Today - start shouting in protest at the monitor and throwing stretched coffee at the class coordinator.
What jumps out to me in that article is that when it comes to determining whether a cult is harmful and controlling– It’s important to look at their methods and practicesrather than theirstatements of belief…
Looking at TWI’s website, their statement of beliefs and articles appear benign and Christian-like…But as a lot of us on Grease Spot Café know, that’s just a cover. They are a pseudo-Christianharmful and controlling cult – a challenging counterfeit.
Good insight. It occurs to me they may be looking to shed the "controlling cult" aspect of their well-documented (in particular on GSC) history. Of course, I have no insider knowledge at this point, but... IF (hypothetically) they see the organization at a dead-end fiscally, they may institute a mindset of adaptation and look for ways to head off the seemingly inevitable.
I think, in this regard, of the Mormons (LDS church). In the 19th century, as a controversial pseudo-Christian organization, it both encountered growth and massive pushback or resistance. It found ways to survive (so far). How controlling and oppressive it was/has been, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if top twi leadership isn't or hasn't studied LDS church history to look for what worked for that church.
I wonder to what extent twi is prepared to alter its financial model to extend the likelihood of survival of the organization. What I do know about the LDS is it is VERY strict about tithing. However, in parallel to that practice, the Mormons are far more generous in using what now reportedly amounts to a treasury far in excess of what TWI has been know to amass... to TAKE CARE of the families of its members.
By no means does that indicate LDS society is even close to utopian. Sexual dysfunction is STILL a significant problem largely because of the closed nature of LDS communities.
However, IMO, if twi wants to survive, it will at least have to figure out how to redirect away from sucking PFLAP grads completely dry of the fruits of their labors while still enforcing the tithe.
I offer these thoughts only because I/we figure they're still readings what we have to say.
In the meantime, we keep pushing back on and against TWI.
Good insight. It occurs to me they may be looking to shed the "controlling cult" aspect of their well-documented (in particular on GSC) history. Of course, I have no insider knowledge at this point, but... IF (hypothetically) they see the organization at a dead-end fiscally, they may institute a mindset of adaptation and look for ways to head off the seemingly inevitable.
I think, in this regard, of the Mormons (LDS church). In the 19th century, as a controversial pseudo-Christian organization, it both encountered growth and massive pushback or resistance. It found ways to survive (so far). How controlling and oppressive it was/has been, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if top twi leadership isn't or hasn't studied LDS church history to look for what worked for that church.
I wonder to what extent twi is prepared to alter its financial model to extend the likelihood of survival of the organization. What I do know about the LDS is it is VERY strict about tithing. However, in parallel to that practice, the Mormons are far more generous in using what now reportedly amounts to a treasury far in excess of what TWI has been know to amass... to TAKE CARE of the families of its members.
By no means does that indicate LDS society is even close to utopian. Sexual dysfunction is STILL a significant problem largely because of the closed nature of LDS communities.
However, IMO, if twi wants to survive, it will at least have to figure out how to redirect away from sucking PFLAP grads completely dry of the fruits of their labors while still enforcing the tithe.
I offer these thoughts only because I/we figure they're still readings what we have to say.
In the meantime, we keep pushing back on and against TWI.
I want to clear up some misunderstanding here about the Mormons. They are definitely NOT an example of taking care of their poor. They have plenty of $$$$ but for a poor person to get help from them they are subject to degrading interrogations and are pretty much put on bathroom cleaning duty and as such receive ridicule among the members. As a result of this attitude very few actually go through with receiving help.
This hypocrisy causes many to leave every year. They can spend $100 million on renovating a mall close to the Salt Lake temple but do not help their own.
TWI is like that. Never use abs to help their poor unless someone goes rogue to do it.
This hypocrisy causes many to leave every year. They can spend $100 million on renovating a mall close to the Salt Lake temple but do not help their own.
TWI is like that. Never use abs to help their poor unless someone goes rogue to do it.
YMMV. Your mileage may vary.
Absolutely, their societies are far from utopian.
And yes, people also leave the LDS church. However, they have a massive outreach strategy.
My experience w/the LDS church is them having, in a clandestine manner, intervened in my divorce litigation. My ex-wife "hooked up" (retained) a Mormon divorce lawyer. She converted. They funded a bribe of the judge at one point. No, I don't have proof, or I would have made a VERY big deal of the situation. Corruption in Arizona courts happens and it matters in harmful ways.
Nevertheless, the LDS church does use money in multiple ways to aid people in their congregations.
MY point was only that TWI sucks their followers dry and doesn't generally provide ways to help people.
The first two paragraphs definately say you are a cult if you do not believe in the diety of JC and good works are required to gain heaven. It does go on to expand on other actions, but the first two paragraphs define a cult and the rest of the world is a cult.
The first two paragraphs definately say you are a cult if you do not believe in the diety of JC and good works are required to gain heaven. It does go on to expand on other actions, but the first two paragraphs define a cult and the rest of the world is a cult.
Well, Christianity does revolve around Jesus Christ – and their “about” page is upfront about that: About GotQuestions.org – and I happen to believe in the divinity of Christ, so I don’t take issue with that.
The main reason I started this thread in About the Way was to point out – from a Christian perspective – that The Way International are a bunch of royal hypocrites !!!!!
As I said in the starter post – I wanted this thread to be an exercise in the Socratic method that’s used on a lot of Grease Spot threads - it's a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between Grease Spotters, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
It helps to identify and eliminate the dubious theories, logical fallacies, contradictions, eclectic unbiblical sources, and flat-out Scripture twisting in the Power For Abundant Living class – which is the mainstay of The Way International. But frankly – nothing new here or elsewhere on Grease Spot – when it comes to exposing their dark underbelly.
Yeah, I know I’m boring and repetitive cuz I also started a thread Why PFAL sucks since it's an inferior substitute for Christianity and is detrimental to one’s well-being.
I’m not going to play topic-cop – I figure we’re all responsible adults here.
You can post whatever you want –
although in my opinion you’ll probably have a better chance of everyone staying on topic if you start a thread about why Christianity sucks or why religion sucks if you choose a more appropriate forum like Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith.
That’s all for now, peace
Edited by T-Bone Edited to support the grammar police
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes.
They may have mentioned Jews and New Age ideas on occasion.
Most of the time was spent verbally bashing Roman Catholism, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Orthodox, . . . anything holding The Bible or mentioning Jesus. They were clearly threatened by these groups.
I think the links tried to show the term cult as a matter of perspective. Cults are cults depending on where you stand and how you view the world.
The Way International poses as perfect Christianity. They are more threatened by people actually understanding Christainity. Because then it becomes apparent they are just making $#!+ up.
And yes, people also leave the LDS church. However, they have a massive outreach strategy.
My experience w/the LDS church is them having, in a clandestine manner, intervened in my divorce litigation. My ex-wife "hooked up" (retained) a Mormon divorce lawyer. She converted. They funded a bribe of the judge at one point. No, I don't have proof, or I would have made a VERY big deal of the situation. Corruption in Arizona courts happens and it matters in harmful ways.
Nevertheless, the LDS church does use money in multiple ways to aid people in their congregations.
MY point was only that TWI sucks their followers dry and doesn't generally provide ways to help people.
I’m just relaying the general consensus on /r exmorman Reddit channel. There are many accounts of the storehouses of Mormon wards being used as showing the bishop has great potential and the goods not going to the poor due to shaming tactics I described.
In your situation with a baptism on the line I can certainly see the bishop approving a bribe. President Nelson is all about the numbers and building new temples so a simple bribe for a conversion would prop up the bishops numbers and qualify him for a stake presidency. Along with his tithing numbers.
They do not take care of their poor. I’m only posting this because I also shared the same misconception 3 months ago.
Rocky sorry for your experience it sounds like 2 cults have screwed you over.
The articles definition of a cult would apply to many organizations:
1. Deny the diety of JC
2. Good works do not get you to heaven.
Much of the article references certain religious beliefs the author believes must be adhered to in order for a group not to be classified as a cult. According to him all religions rhat don’t have JC as the center are a cult, which describes Jews, Muslims, and many other faiths.
To me one cannot use this article alone to classify TWI as a cult, without throwing in most of the world’s religions. I would certainly be thrown to the wolves as a cultist.
Yeah that is their aim to suck all the air out of space in the internet. To so stuff meaningless sites with content like godswordworks.org and other similar sites that the new potential converts never find the results for critical websites via search.
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes.
They may have mentioned Jews and New Age ideas on occasion.
Most of the time was spent verbally bashing Roman Catholism, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Orthodox, . . . anything holding The Bible or mentioning Jesus. They were clearly threatened by these groups.
I think the links tried to show the term cult as a matter of perspective. Cults are cults depending on where you stand and how you view the world.
The Way International poses as perfect Christianity. They are more threatened by people actually understanding Christainity. Because then it becomes apparent they are just making $#!+ up.
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes.
They may have mentioned Jews and New Age ideas on occasion.
Most of the time was spent verbally bashing Roman Catholism, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Orthodox, . . . anything holding The Bible or mentioning Jesus. They were clearly threatened by these groups.
I think the links tried to show the term cult as a matter of perspective. Cults are cults depending on where you stand and how you view the world.
The Way International poses as perfect Christianity. They are more threatened by people actually understanding Christainity. Because then it becomes apparent they are just making $#!+ up.
Good point. True Christianity challenges their origin story. It sounds like the bashers have to keep up a certain level of hype to even try to convince themselves.
“We are the really really seriously really true believers in Christ all those others are just imposters”
Good point. True Christianity challenges their origin story. It sounds like the bashers have to keep up a certain level of hype to even try to convince themselves.
“We are the really really seriously really true believers in Christ all those others are just imposters”
What do they call that ? “Fronting”?
Yeah - speaking of origin stories - I was reading John 15 this morning - and I'll make a few points about imposters after the passage:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
1.If Jesus Christ is absent – then none of this is applicable. How can a branch be connected to a vine if the vine is absent? Ah, but one may try arguing the branch is connected to the vine spiritually. Sure! But a spiritual unionnecessitates the joining of others who arepresent…Jesus Christ is not absent.
2. I submit that a pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International can have all the trappings of Christianity – but if they are not connected to Christ – they are lifeless and bear no fruit.
3. We are to remain in Christ’s love. How? By keeping His commands. And one of His commands is “Love each other as I have loved you”. Most followers of The Way Internationalpractice degrees of estrangementwhether they realize it or not. The most obvious being the way they deride any Christian groups. Then to a lesser degree, anyone who is a follower of The Way international but doesn’t toe the line – will experience disaffection from the group – they might sense others - especially leadership are dissatisfied with them – even though they don’t say it outright.
wierwille used to say, “When it comes to The Word, I have no friends”. What is a friend? A person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection. I think wierwille was a malignant narcissist – the bond of mutual affection was the over-the-top admiration wierwille had of himself and the respect he demanded from others. See Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
4.The Way Tree is a counterfeit of Christ as the vine and believers as the branches.In a pseudo-Christian cult, the cult-leader doubles as the gardener and the vine from the John 15 metaphor. The cult-leader prunes the branches – he/she will mark and avoid those who do not produce fruit which is recruiting new followers.
5. “You did not choose me, but I chose you”…This is a twisted version of how I got tricked into following a cult-leader. I bought into wierwille’s idea of The Word takes the place of the absent Christ…I did NOT choose a pathological liar, unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, drunkard, abusive, sexual predator – but that creep deliberately chose unsuspecting seekers of Jesus Christ like me as a target of his religious scam
wierwille did teach about the ‘Christ in you’ but in my opinion there might have been a twofold purpose : he was blowing smoke up ‘believers’ a$$es - to inflate their egos and have them draw a correlation with the power behind wierwille’s ministry - in other words, he probably wanted followers to assume he exemplified living by the power of ‘Christ in you’.
I believe wierwille subliminally substituted himself in place of Christ’s authority by the ambiguous images he conveyed to followers.
Sure, he taught it was ‘Christ in you’. But I think here is another one of those wierwille switcheroos - like a Stepford Wives ‘syndrome’. What I think wierwille taught as the real you – the ‘Christ in you’ – was his idea of the perfect TWI-follower- compliant…obedient to the man of God…’not my will but thine (the cult-leader’s will ) be done’.
The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent.
Religion deals in a lot of abstracts. I bet no two people think of Jesus Christ in the same way.
At the center of Christianity is Jesus Christ - I know I’m stating the obvious here - but the full message of the gospel gives us a bunch of reference points to think somewhat more objectively of Jesus Christ and by extension the Father. To reinterpret John 14:9 he who observes Jesus’ words and deeds will also recognize the Father.
The fact that wierwille focused primarily on Pauline letters may also be a factor in why his theology was unmoored from traditional Christianity.
While it is true, we don’t know Christ after the flesh as II Corinthians 5:16 says - I don’t think that means we ignore His words and deeds recorded in the gospels.
It’s about a change in perspective.
The people having a natural point of view of Christ led to His crucifixion and Paul persecuting followers of Christ. After Paul’s conversion he had a divine perspectiveof Christ. And so do we as Christians reading of His words and deeds. The gospels provide us with the touchstone for living Christ-like.
On the other hand, reflecting on some of the things I’ve witnessed wierwille say and do - it’s obvious to me now his reference point was not Jesus Christ - but himself. So, he came up with ‘great’ redefinitions like “anything done in the love of God is okay.” Where does it say that in the gospels - or for that matter in Paul's letters?
A TWI-follower thinking about the ‘Christ in you’ could mean something totally different from a member of a local church feeling compelled to help a homeless person.
pseudo-Christian cults = a religious bait and switch.
do birds of a feather flock together?
does wierwille ideology have a tendency to breed sociopathic traits in followers?
Wierwille-fans have a habit of running up the flagpole the fantasy of a pathological liar, a cheating, thieving , sociopathic, mean and abusive sexual predator like it’s no worse than anyone else when they’re out of fellowship with the weak and sin-tolerant god that wierwille promoted.
the god that wierwille promoted is indeed a fantasy of a sociopath’s creative imagination who - like the devotee cannot distinguish between what’s right and wrong, between truth and lies.
The way that wierwille presented himself through plagiarism and sincerity many thought he was the real deal and not a faker. Many thought their lives were changed for the better because that was the group hype . Narrow minded people feel their lives are better because they’re right and all others are wrong.
wierwille had a charismatic personality - many folks were attracted to his influence NOT because they thought he was a holy man - but because he made himself out to be a maverick - this appealed to the counterculture movement in its day. He went against mainstream Christianity and disparaged academia, cognitive skills, and worldly logic. He was not your typical religious leader.
he turned the straight and narrow path of Christianity into something self-referential “as long as you love God & neighbor you can do as you full well please” . - as wierwille would often brag “anything done in the love of God is okay”. what a handy rule of thumb - if YOU THINK you’re doing something out of the love of God it’s okay. Plagiarizing the works of others so you can offer your followers a new and improved version of their work. It sounds like Christianity, doesn't it?
A sociopath will always have the advantage over folks with a conscience. Why push yourself to develop your research skills and original ideas when you can take the shortcut and plagiarize from others.
Do sociopaths congratulate each other over getting away with unconscionable acts?
Why would anyone defend a sociopath? Do ‘great’ sociopaths think alike?
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Bolshevik
My memory says Wayfers don't self identify as Christians. I seem to remember that word being thought of with a negative connotation. Quickly looking at theway.org site, it's a Biblical ministry.
Bolshevik
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes. They m
Nathan_Jr
My memory and text messages say the same. My FC said TWI/PFAL/VPW is not a religion. He said he did not consider himself a Christian nor self identify as religious. I asked, "What is religio
Stayed Too Long
The articles definition of a cult would apply to many organizations:
1. Deny the diety of JC
2. Good works do not get you to heaven.
Much of the article references certain religious beliefs the author believes must be adhered to in order for a group not to be classified as a cult. According to him all religions rhat don’t have JC as the center are a cult, which describes Jews, Muslims, and many other faiths.
To me one cannot use this article alone to classify TWI as a cult, without throwing in most of the world’s religions. I would certainly be thrown to the wolves as a cultist.
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Bolshevik
If you read the link Chockful provided their definition of cult is much broader than that. You're describing a subset of cults they refer to in a Christian context.
https://www.gotquestions.org/cult-definition.html
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waysider
Exactly. Cults come in all sorts of varieties, some religion based and some not. One particular cult that comes to mind is a collection of motorcycle enthusiasts, who exist for reasons far beyond the shear joy of feeling the wind in their faces, as they cruise the open road. Their name, however, is derived from common words associated with religion.
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Bolshevik
The definition they provide includes the word distortion. Using the word distortion implies misleading others.
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T-Bone
Stayed Too Long, you’re not wrong in your opinion – and this may be one of those instances of folks looking at the same thing from a different viewpoint. I’m quoting an excerpt from the same article and here’s what stood out to me:
Various chilling accounts written by former members of The Way describe brainwashing, manipulation and control of followers, and sexual perversion and adultery that become increasingly more drastic toward the upper echelons of the organization. Like many cults, The Way marks those who appear not to agree with the cult or who fail to obey unquestioningly and purges them. Those who are purged are avoided and escorted off The Way campuses and utterly ignored, even by longtime friends.
Also as in many cults, the followers of The Way are lured into the group by the friendliness and acceptance they experience upon meeting The Way members. This is simply a marketing technique used by The Way International to gather followers, not genuine friendship. Although many of the followers of The Way are well-meaning people, they are deceived and they are deceiving others. Its members may describe their meetings, at first, as “home-churches” or “discussion groups.” It is always best to check to see what, if any, church or organization a home church is affiliated with and examine their statement of faith or mission statement before becoming involved.
From: What is The Way International? | GotQuestions.org
~ ~ ~ ~
What jumps out to me in that article is that when it comes to determining whether a cult is harmful and controlling – It’s important to look at their methods and practices rather than their statements of belief…
Looking at TWI’s website, their statement of beliefs and articles appear benign and Christian-like…But as a lot of us on Grease Spot Café know, that’s just a cover. They are a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult – a challenging counterfeit.
~ ~ ~ ~
I’ve tried to get in the habit of referring to The Way International as a harmful and controlling cult. As Waysider expressed - there’s a wide variety of cults and not all are necessarily religious or manipulative and detrimental to the follower. For example, The Rocky Horror Picture Show ’s famous audience participation was inspired, in part, by boredom. The Rocky Horror Picture Show was a flop when it was originally released in 1975, but as midnight showings continued, it developed a rabid cult following with a penchant for shouting at the screen as the film played.
You know what would be funny - imagine some new students who still have their wits about them - midway through taking PFAL Today - start shouting in protest at the monitor and throwing stretched coffee at the class coordinator.
Edited by T-BoneThe Rocky Horror Editor's Show
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waysider
Stretched coffee in lipstick stained styro cups. I might just endure a session to witness a spectacle so grand.
(I said *might*.)
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Bolshevik
If everything is a cult, then everyone is just like VPW.
Definitions need to be settled on at some point.
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Rocky
Good insight. It occurs to me they may be looking to shed the "controlling cult" aspect of their well-documented (in particular on GSC) history. Of course, I have no insider knowledge at this point, but... IF (hypothetically) they see the organization at a dead-end fiscally, they may institute a mindset of adaptation and look for ways to head off the seemingly inevitable.
I think, in this regard, of the Mormons (LDS church). In the 19th century, as a controversial pseudo-Christian organization, it both encountered growth and massive pushback or resistance. It found ways to survive (so far). How controlling and oppressive it was/has been, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if top twi leadership isn't or hasn't studied LDS church history to look for what worked for that church.
I wonder to what extent twi is prepared to alter its financial model to extend the likelihood of survival of the organization. What I do know about the LDS is it is VERY strict about tithing. However, in parallel to that practice, the Mormons are far more generous in using what now reportedly amounts to a treasury far in excess of what TWI has been know to amass... to TAKE CARE of the families of its members.
By no means does that indicate LDS society is even close to utopian. Sexual dysfunction is STILL a significant problem largely because of the closed nature of LDS communities.
However, IMO, if twi wants to survive, it will at least have to figure out how to redirect away from sucking PFLAP grads completely dry of the fruits of their labors while still enforcing the tithe.
I offer these thoughts only because I/we figure they're still readings what we have to say.
Edited by RockyIn the meantime, we keep pushing back on and against TWI.
clarity
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chockfull
I want to clear up some misunderstanding here about the Mormons. They are definitely NOT an example of taking care of their poor. They have plenty of $$$$ but for a poor person to get help from them they are subject to degrading interrogations and are pretty much put on bathroom cleaning duty and as such receive ridicule among the members. As a result of this attitude very few actually go through with receiving help.
This hypocrisy causes many to leave every year. They can spend $100 million on renovating a mall close to the Salt Lake temple but do not help their own.
TWI is like that. Never use abs to help their poor unless someone goes rogue to do it.
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Rocky
YMMV. Your mileage may vary.
Edited by RockyAbsolutely, their societies are far from utopian.
And yes, people also leave the LDS church. However, they have a massive outreach strategy.
My experience w/the LDS church is them having, in a clandestine manner, intervened in my divorce litigation. My ex-wife "hooked up" (retained) a Mormon divorce lawyer. She converted. They funded a bribe of the judge at one point. No, I don't have proof, or I would have made a VERY big deal of the situation. Corruption in Arizona courts happens and it matters in harmful ways.
Nevertheless, the LDS church does use money in multiple ways to aid people in their congregations.
MY point was only that TWI sucks their followers dry and doesn't generally provide ways to help people.
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Stayed Too Long
The first two paragraphs definately say you are a cult if you do not believe in the diety of JC and good works are required to gain heaven. It does go on to expand on other actions, but the first two paragraphs define a cult and the rest of the world is a cult.
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T-Bone
Well, Christianity does revolve around Jesus Christ – and their “about” page is upfront about that: About GotQuestions.org – and I happen to believe in the divinity of Christ, so I don’t take issue with that.
I really didn’t intend to get into religion bashing on this thread – but that’s just me – I’m easy to get along with – which reflects my open-mindedness – I’m not a big fan of Religious exclusivism - Wikipedia and there are some interfaith communities that celebrate and honor the many paths to God like The Spiritual Life – “Windows To Spirituality” The Spiritual Life (slife.org)
The main reason I started this thread in About the Way was to point out – from a Christian perspective – that The Way International are a bunch of royal hypocrites !!!!!
As I said in the starter post – I wanted this thread to be an exercise in the Socratic method that’s used on a lot of Grease Spot threads - it's a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between Grease Spotters, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
It helps to identify and eliminate the dubious theories, logical fallacies, contradictions, eclectic unbiblical sources, and flat-out Scripture twisting in the Power For Abundant Living class – which is the mainstay of The Way International. But frankly – nothing new here or elsewhere on Grease Spot – when it comes to exposing their dark underbelly.
Yeah, I know I’m boring and repetitive
cuz I also started a thread Why PFAL sucks since it's an inferior substitute for Christianity and is detrimental to one’s well-being.
I’m not going to play topic-cop – I figure we’re all responsible adults here.
You can post whatever you want –
although in my opinion you’ll probably have a better chance of everyone staying on topic if you start a thread about why Christianity sucks or why religion sucks if you choose a more appropriate forum like Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith.
That’s all for now, peace
Edited by T-BoneEdited to support the grammar police
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Bolshevik
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes.
They may have mentioned Jews and New Age ideas on occasion.
Most of the time was spent verbally bashing Roman Catholism, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Orthodox, . . . anything holding The Bible or mentioning Jesus. They were clearly threatened by these groups.
I think the links tried to show the term cult as a matter of perspective. Cults are cults depending on where you stand and how you view the world.
The Way International poses as perfect Christianity. They are more threatened by people actually understanding Christainity. Because then it becomes apparent they are just making $#!+ up.
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chockfull
I’m just relaying the general consensus on /r exmorman Reddit channel. There are many accounts of the storehouses of Mormon wards being used as showing the bishop has great potential and the goods not going to the poor due to shaming tactics I described.
In your situation with a baptism on the line I can certainly see the bishop approving a bribe. President Nelson is all about the numbers and building new temples so a simple bribe for a conversion would prop up the bishops numbers and qualify him for a stake presidency. Along with his tithing numbers.
They do not take care of their poor. I’m only posting this because I also shared the same misconception 3 months ago.
Rocky sorry for your experience it sounds like 2 cults have screwed you over.
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chockfull
Yeah that is their aim to suck all the air out of space in the internet. To so stuff meaningless sites with content like godswordworks.org and other similar sites that the new potential converts never find the results for critical websites via search.
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T-Bone
Great post, Bolshevik!
That's one heck of an observation !!!!!
...and kinda obvious now that you mentioned it.
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chockfull
Good point. True Christianity challenges their origin story. It sounds like the bashers have to keep up a certain level of hype to even try to convince themselves.
“We are the really really seriously really true believers in Christ all those others are just imposters”
What do they call that ? “Fronting”?
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T-Bone
Yeah - speaking of origin stories - I was reading John 15 this morning - and I'll make a few points about imposters after the passage:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
John 15
~ ~ ~ ~
1.If Jesus Christ is absent – then none of this is applicable. How can a branch be connected to a vine if the vine is absent? Ah, but one may try arguing the branch is connected to the vine spiritually. Sure! But a spiritual union necessitates the joining of others who are present…Jesus Christ is not absent.
2. I submit that a pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International can have all the trappings of Christianity – but if they are not connected to Christ – they are lifeless and bear no fruit.
3. We are to remain in Christ’s love. How? By keeping His commands. And one of His commands is “Love each other as I have loved you”. Most followers of The Way International practice degrees of estrangement whether they realize it or not. The most obvious being the way they deride any Christian groups. Then to a lesser degree, anyone who is a follower of The Way international but doesn’t toe the line – will experience disaffection from the group – they might sense others - especially leadership are dissatisfied with them – even though they don’t say it outright.
wierwille used to say, “When it comes to The Word, I have no friends”. What is a friend? A person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection. I think wierwille was a malignant narcissist – the bond of mutual affection was the over-the-top admiration wierwille had of himself and the respect he demanded from others. See Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
4.The Way Tree is a counterfeit of Christ as the vine and believers as the branches. In a pseudo-Christian cult, the cult-leader doubles as the gardener and the vine from the John 15 metaphor. The cult-leader prunes the branches – he/she will mark and avoid those who do not produce fruit which is recruiting new followers.
5. “You did not choose me, but I chose you”…This is a twisted version of how I got tricked into following a cult-leader. I bought into wierwille’s idea of The Word takes the place of the absent Christ …I did NOT choose a pathological liar, unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, drunkard, abusive, sexual predator – but that creep deliberately chose unsuspecting seekers of Jesus Christ like me as a target of his religious scam
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T-Bone
wierwille did teach about the ‘Christ in you’ but in my opinion there might have been a twofold purpose : he was blowing smoke up ‘believers’ a$$es - to inflate their egos and have them draw a correlation with the power behind wierwille’s ministry - in other words, he probably wanted followers to assume he exemplified living by the power of ‘Christ in you’.
I believe wierwille subliminally substituted himself in place of Christ’s authority by the ambiguous images he conveyed to followers.
Sure, he taught it was ‘Christ in you’. But I think here is another one of those wierwille switcheroos - like a Stepford Wives ‘syndrome’. What I think wierwille taught as the real you – the ‘Christ in you’ – was his idea of the perfect TWI-follower - compliant…obedient to the man of God…’not my will but thine (the cult-leader’s will ) be done’.
The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent.
Religion deals in a lot of abstracts. I bet no two people think of Jesus Christ in the same way.
At the center of Christianity is Jesus Christ - I know I’m stating the obvious here - but the full message of the gospel gives us a bunch of reference points to think somewhat more objectively of Jesus Christ and by extension the Father. To reinterpret John 14:9 he who observes Jesus’ words and deeds will also recognize the Father.
The fact that wierwille focused primarily on Pauline letters may also be a factor in why his theology was unmoored from traditional Christianity.
While it is true, we don’t know Christ after the flesh as II Corinthians 5:16 says - I don’t think that means we ignore His words and deeds recorded in the gospels.
It’s about a change in perspective.
The people having a natural point of view of Christ led to His crucifixion and Paul persecuting followers of Christ. After Paul’s conversion he had a divine perspective of Christ. And so do we as Christians reading of His words and deeds. The gospels provide us with the touchstone for living Christ-like.
On the other hand, reflecting on some of the things I’ve witnessed wierwille say and do - it’s obvious to me now his reference point was not Jesus Christ - but himself. So, he came up with ‘great’ redefinitions like “anything done in the love of God is okay.” Where does it say that in the gospels - or for that matter in Paul's letters?
A TWI-follower thinking about the ‘Christ in you’ could mean something totally different from a member of a local church feeling compelled to help a homeless person.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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T-Bone
what makes cults attractive?
how do pseudo-Christian cults pull off their con?
pseudo-Christian cults = a religious bait and switch.
do birds of a feather flock together?
does wierwille ideology have a tendency to breed sociopathic traits in followers?
Wierwille-fans have a habit of running up the flagpole the fantasy of a pathological liar, a cheating, thieving , sociopathic, mean and abusive sexual predator like it’s no worse than anyone else when they’re out of fellowship with the weak and sin-tolerant god that wierwille promoted.
the god that wierwille promoted is indeed a fantasy of a sociopath’s creative imagination who - like the devotee cannot distinguish between what’s right and wrong, between truth and lies.
The way that wierwille presented himself through plagiarism and sincerity many thought he was the real deal and not a faker. Many thought their lives were changed for the better because that was the group hype . Narrow minded people feel their lives are better because they’re right and all others are wrong.
wierwille had a charismatic personality - many folks were attracted to his influence NOT because they thought he was a holy man - but because he made himself out to be a maverick - this appealed to the counterculture movement in its day. He went against mainstream Christianity and disparaged academia, cognitive skills, and worldly logic. He was not your typical religious leader.
he turned the straight and narrow path of Christianity into something self-referential “as long as you love God & neighbor you can do as you full well please” . - as wierwille would often brag “anything done in the love of God is okay”. what a handy rule of thumb - if YOU THINK you’re doing something out of the love of God it’s okay. Plagiarizing the works of others so you can offer your followers a new and improved version of their work. It sounds like Christianity, doesn't it?
A sociopath will always have the advantage over folks with a conscience. Why push yourself to develop your research skills and original ideas when you can take the shortcut and plagiarize from others.
Do sociopaths congratulate each other over getting away with unconscionable acts?
Why would anyone defend a sociopath? Do ‘great’ sociopaths think alike?
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