1) Nobody can define cult. This would open yet another avenue for The State's active dissolution of the family unit altogether while putting large segments of the population into financial bondage. This will contribute to authoritarian rule. As it is family members fear one another and the whole concept is increasingly being avoided. Government and family are tied.
2) The bigger issue is the lack of role models in the first place. Probably why the first generation got involved in the first place.
3) My own experience with people trying to intervene is that it causes permanent division. No program will fill the void of the absent family.
4) A person can never escape the fact the he or she exists because a group consisiting of easily impressionable people intensely followed a pervert.
5) If people can raise themselves babies should be made in factories.
6) The stigma remains regardless. Culties have cooties.
It's difficult to draw cultural parallels between Japan and the United States. Japanese culture relies heavily on honorifics and hierarchical social structuring. I'm sure this would play a major role in how such programs would be implemented and how they would ultimately affect society in general.
Since my memoir, Undertow, was published, quite a few grown children of Way followers have contacted me. They ask things like how come their parents STILL adore such a depraved man as Wierwille? Most of these second-generation believers were abused by their Way Corps and non-Way Corps parents or their fellowship coordinator in one way or another. It's heartbreaking. They wish they could have gotten away from their own families while growing up! Some of them post here.
Maybe we in the USA can take a lesson from Japan on this.
There's a movement there to help children trapped in their parent's controlling religious organizations.
Do you think that could ever happen in this country?
Part of that article discusses the tax exempt status of the religious organizations. I have never seen TWI move fast except for two cases: 1. Fragile ego causes elevated responses. 2. Something threatens the tax exempt status.
What caused the changes at HQ and with staff labor? Only one thing. A threatened tax exempt status even via the lawyers telling them to change caused them to jump like a frog on a hot tin roof.
None of that happens in a volunteer scenario though. If you volunteer to get abused that’s your own legal deal not theirs.
I do not think that any social reform like the one in Japan in the article would translate well to USA culture.
I think only action attached to the tax exempt status would have any leverage at all. If there could be some code of moral conduct enforced attached to the tax exempt that could be effective.
Or possibly an “underground cult railroad” that is funded by a grant?
It's difficult to draw cultural parallels between Japan and the United States. Japanese culture relies heavily on honorifics and hierarchical social structuring. I'm sure this would play a major role in how such programs would be implemented and how they would ultimately affect society in general.
Japan's demographics are quite different too. The population is shrinking. Obviously, children are not a priority.
Do you think that could ever happen in this country?
It seems important to me to parse what the question means or implies.
Clearly, children in the US can be and are troubled sometimes and to some extent by abusive aspects of their parents' religions.
Clearly, said second generation of people adversely impacted by various cults could/would hope for a mechanism for government to facilitate escape from those controlling and abusive religious organizations. But what kind of mechanism could at all be feasible without jeopardizing foundational freedoms (of religion)?
Perhaps some kind of education program about spiritual/religious abuse? But even with that, wouldn't there be difficult issues to navigate any or all of which would cause potentially large and vociferous reactionary pushback?
Scrutiny of the Unification Church intensified following the fatal shooting of former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in July. His attacker, Tetsuya Yamagami, has said he held a grudge against the Unification Church because his mother made considerable donations to the group, leaving his family in financial ruin.
See if this guy left through some exit program, how would that change his resentment about the actions of his mother? He can't control her.
Regarding her (mother of the accused) conversations with investigators during the hearing, which lasted about four hours, the uncle said, “Their communication failed as she lives in a spiritual world.”
Regarding her (mother of the accused) conversations with investigators during the hearing, which lasted about four hours, the uncle said, “Their communication failed as she lives in a spiritual world.”
Can someone without free will communicate? Or is their communication limited?
If the mind is "renewed" then negative emotion is subdued. And how can their be real positive emotion without the potential for negative?
What on earth could someone in a "spiritual world" possibly have to say or relate to?
I had contact first with The Way. That led my mother into joining, then as I got older, my kids were exposed when young. My kids and I got out are fine and have no lasting effects, but my mother died still believing everything the cult told her to. I'm left to ponder if I will see her again when I get to heaven. *sigh*
I had contact first with The Way. That led my mother into joining, then as I got older, my kids were exposed when young. My kids and I got out are fine and have no lasting effects, but my mother died still believing everything the cult told her to. I'm left to ponder if I will see her again when I get to heaven. *sigh*
I would truly hope that our Lord and Savior whose yoke is easy and burden is light will be able to sort out confusion like this. Otherwise what is the point?
Jesus describes leading a little one astray as a situation where it would be better to carry a millstone around your neck.
From my view we are gonna see a millstone cowboy parade with TWI leaders at Jesus Christs return.
I was a teen and a minor when I visited a church. Someone was trying to Christianize me or rid me of Wayferdom or whatever their plan was.
I remember looking at a pamphlet at a Church which was about The Way International and how TWI is evil. But it was over my head. Didn't answer questions I had. Talked about stuff I couldn't care less about.
Then some lady, former Wayfer, walked up and started talking to me, she must have been 30 or 40 or 25 or 50. Didn't understand a thing she said. I did not have her experiences. We would never resonate.
I hated Fellowship, because Fellowship is stupid and disgusting and is for the retarded. But I didn't like these other efforts, they didn't care what I thought or cared about, it was just another form of control. Their goal was speak against TWI, the organization THEY chose. Others had THEIR agenda. They ignored the conversations a minor already has in the works. It created more enemies.
I hated Fellowship, because Fellowship is stupid and disgusting and is for the retarded. But I didn't like these other efforts, they didn't care what I thought or cared about, it was just another form of control. Their goal was speak against TWI, the organization THEY chose. Others had THEIR agenda. They ignored the conversations a minor already has in the works. It created more enemies.
I've attended a few churches that have more of a rock concert modern type of worship format. They are kinda cool compared to a twig like format.
The splinter salesmen have not had much success with me either. I'm not really looking for a scenario with the same doctrine and fellowship format but much better leaders or a better org structure. The entire package to me stinks like sugar coated manure. VPW idolatry I mean damn literally in addition to idolizing his works. Fundamentalist isolationist group that functionally is a living embodiment of the eye saying to the hand I have no need of you. They have to teach a doctrinal error distinction of “household/body” with vpw flawed logic to even get it to be semi coherent.
There's so many ways to develop support groups and connection and friend groups in local areas that cultic connections are not necessary.
I've attended a few churches that have more of a rock concert modern type of worship format. They are kinda cool compared to a twig like format.
The splinter salesmen have not had much success with me either. I'm not really looking for a scenario with the same doctrine and fellowship format but much better leaders or a better org structure. The entire package to me stinks like sugar coated manure. VPW idolatry I mean damn literally in addition to idolizing his works. Fundamentalist isolationist group that functionally is a living embodiment of the eye saying to the hand I have no need of you. They have to teach a doctrinal error distinction of “household/body” with vpw flawed logic to even get it to be semi coherent.
There's so many ways to develop support groups and connection and friend groups in local areas that cultic connections are not necessary.
Well, I think we're getting at supplanting a child's biological parental units at a young age. It's not about one church or another.
This is already done to some degree by daycare and the school system. Horror stories around child services are also out there pertaining to bogus claims.
Parents are traditionally found in the form of marriage. It used to be marriage was an acknowledgement by the State of one's private life. Marriage is no longer that. Marriage is the invasion by the State into one's personal life.
Who is supposed to raise the children?
If people no longer belong in family groups, what do they belong to?
In Canada and the United Kingdom, a woman cannot be convicted of first-degree murder if she kills her child during the postpartum period, Meyer said.
In the United States, mothers often get harsh sentences for killing their children. “It’s more horrific in our minds if a mother does this,” she said.
Byatt, of UMass, finds it “concerning” that the Duxbury mother was charged with murder. If she had postpartum psychosis, she had no control over what she was doing, Byatt said.
I was told years ago, when broaching the topic, that beating children is not beating women, so that's different. (IOW, It's okay to beat kids because kids are not women)
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Bolshevik
1) Nobody can define cult. This would open yet another avenue for The State's active dissolution of the family unit altogether while putting large segments of the population into financial bondage. This will contribute to authoritarian rule. As it is family members fear one another and the whole concept is increasingly being avoided. Government and family are tied.
2) The bigger issue is the lack of role models in the first place. Probably why the first generation got involved in the first place.
3) My own experience with people trying to intervene is that it causes permanent division. No program will fill the void of the absent family.
4) A person can never escape the fact the he or she exists because a group consisiting of easily impressionable people intensely followed a pervert.
5) If people can raise themselves babies should be made in factories.
6) The stigma remains regardless. Culties have cooties.
7) This is likely a political issue.
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waysider
It's difficult to draw cultural parallels between Japan and the United States. Japanese culture relies heavily on honorifics and hierarchical social structuring. I'm sure this would play a major role in how such programs would be implemented and how they would ultimately affect society in general.
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chockfull
Part of that article discusses the tax exempt status of the religious organizations. I have never seen TWI move fast except for two cases: 1. Fragile ego causes elevated responses. 2. Something threatens the tax exempt status.
What caused the changes at HQ and with staff labor? Only one thing. A threatened tax exempt status even via the lawyers telling them to change caused them to jump like a frog on a hot tin roof.
None of that happens in a volunteer scenario though. If you volunteer to get abused that’s your own legal deal not theirs.
I do not think that any social reform like the one in Japan in the article would translate well to USA culture.
I think only action attached to the tax exempt status would have any leverage at all. If there could be some code of moral conduct enforced attached to the tax exempt that could be effective.
Or possibly an “underground cult railroad” that is funded by a grant?
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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chockfull
You may be right but I’ve dedicated well over the last decade of my life to ensure that my kids can escape this fact.
And of course the quote thing f s up.
My kids may exist because of your #4 but it sure as hell is not gonna define their existence.
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Bolshevik
Japan's demographics are quite different too. The population is shrinking. Obviously, children are not a priority.
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Bolshevik
My #4 is probably related to #3 and the rise of the internet. The boundaries between private and public are yesterday's news.
I highly respect your efforts with your own, Chockfull.
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Rocky
It seems important to me to parse what the question means or implies.
Clearly, children in the US can be and are troubled sometimes and to some extent by abusive aspects of their parents' religions.
Clearly, said second generation of people adversely impacted by various cults could/would hope for a mechanism for government to facilitate escape from those controlling and abusive religious organizations. But what kind of mechanism could at all be feasible without jeopardizing foundational freedoms (of religion)?
Perhaps some kind of education program about spiritual/religious abuse? But even with that, wouldn't there be difficult issues to navigate any or all of which would cause potentially large and vociferous reactionary pushback?
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Bolshevik
See if this guy left through some exit program, how would that change his resentment about the actions of his mother? He can't control her.
This guy was 41 years old. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/07/27/national/crime-legal/yamagami-mother-unification-church/
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Nathan_Jr
Regarding her (mother of the accused) conversations with investigators during the hearing, which lasted about four hours, the uncle said, “Their communication failed as she lives in a spiritual world.”
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Bolshevik
Can someone without free will communicate? Or is their communication limited?
If the mind is "renewed" then negative emotion is subdued. And how can their be real positive emotion without the potential for negative?
What on earth could someone in a "spiritual world" possibly have to say or relate to?
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BikerBabe
I had contact first with The Way. That led my mother into joining, then as I got older, my kids were exposed when young. My kids and I got out are fine and have no lasting effects, but my mother died still believing everything the cult told her to. I'm left to ponder if I will see her again when I get to heaven. *sigh*
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chockfull
I would truly hope that our Lord and Savior whose yoke is easy and burden is light will be able to sort out confusion like this. Otherwise what is the point?
Jesus describes leading a little one astray as a situation where it would be better to carry a millstone around your neck.
From my view we are gonna see a millstone cowboy parade with TWI leaders at Jesus Christs return.
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Bolshevik
I was a teen and a minor when I visited a church. Someone was trying to Christianize me or rid me of Wayferdom or whatever their plan was.
I remember looking at a pamphlet at a Church which was about The Way International and how TWI is evil. But it was over my head. Didn't answer questions I had. Talked about stuff I couldn't care less about.
Then some lady, former Wayfer, walked up and started talking to me, she must have been 30 or 40 or 25 or 50. Didn't understand a thing she said. I did not have her experiences. We would never resonate.
I hated Fellowship, because Fellowship is stupid and disgusting and is for the retarded. But I didn't like these other efforts, they didn't care what I thought or cared about, it was just another form of control. Their goal was speak against TWI, the organization THEY chose. Others had THEIR agenda. They ignored the conversations a minor already has in the works. It created more enemies.
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chockfull
I've attended a few churches that have more of a rock concert modern type of worship format. They are kinda cool compared to a twig like format.
The splinter salesmen have not had much success with me either. I'm not really looking for a scenario with the same doctrine and fellowship format but much better leaders or a better org structure. The entire package to me stinks like sugar coated manure. VPW idolatry I mean damn literally in addition to idolizing his works. Fundamentalist isolationist group that functionally is a living embodiment of the eye saying to the hand I have no need of you. They have to teach a doctrinal error distinction of “household/body” with vpw flawed logic to even get it to be semi coherent.
There's so many ways to develop support groups and connection and friend groups in local areas that cultic connections are not necessary.
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Bolshevik
Well, I think we're getting at supplanting a child's biological parental units at a young age. It's not about one church or another.
This is already done to some degree by daycare and the school system. Horror stories around child services are also out there pertaining to bogus claims.
Parents are traditionally found in the form of marriage. It used to be marriage was an acknowledgement by the State of one's private life. Marriage is no longer that. Marriage is the invasion by the State into one's personal life.
Who is supposed to raise the children?
If people no longer belong in family groups, what do they belong to?
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Bolshevik
LINK
I was told years ago, when broaching the topic, that beating children is not beating women, so that's different. (IOW, It's okay to beat kids because kids are not women)
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