You seem to forget all those guys have their rewards at the Return. I don't forget that.
Great idea Mike. That idea is so good, you should start washing windows for free. Don't worry, you'll get the rewards for your generosity at the return.
Not true! Many of us grads heard about all those teachers from VPW. He merely did it informally, but he made those names known to us, and in a number of settings.
So those at HQ 72-75. You know most of them. Did any you know of check out Stiles, Kenyon, Leonard? Or did they censor to collaterals like you?
Those taking PFAL on field never heard any informal references. And there are no formal. So….
Many of us grads heard about all those teachers from VPW. He merely did it informally, but he made those names known to us, and in a number of settings.
@Mike --- Just to be clear, stealing, lying, cheating, etc. are always wrong no matter the perpetrator. There is a higher standard on ministers, pastors, etc. to exemplify honesty in all matters. So the idea that wierwille stole the word from someone else but it's God's word violates the spirit, or intent of scripture on stealng. It doesnt work to try and apply intent in reverse to justify stealing because someone stole with good intent. Stealing is stealing is stealing. wierwille was unethical and dishonest to take other's works and say they were his. Plagairism is wrong no matter who perepetrates and no matter the content.
Scripture is public domain. Quote it all day. But even then I give a reference and acknowledge it's from the Bible.
Just to be clear, stealing, lying, cheating, etc. are always wrong no matter the perpetrator. There is a higher standard on ministers, pastors, etc. to exemplify honesty in all matters. So the idea that wierwille stole the word from someone else but it's God's word violates the spirit, or intent of scripture on stealng. It doesnt work to try and apply intent so something like stealing because someone stole with good intent. Stealing is stealing is stealing. wierwille was unethical and dishonest to take other's works and say they were his.
Just to be clear, are you suggesting, dear Old Skool, you've never seen this particular issue addressed before on GSC?
Or do you expect different results trying to be clear this time, than the dozens or hundreds of time people have attempted to get this across to Mike over the previous 20 years?
Its called Gematria. Its occultisim. I would say your assessment is correct.
The law of believing falls in the same category, althought I am sure you aren't ready to get into that concept just yet.
I actually DO know the law of believing falls into that category WHEN the promises of God are not the focus of the believing. I am very familiar with the book "The Seduction of Christianity" and reported on it here not long ago, and a few other times over the years.
I keep trying to tell you folks that I was dragged into this whole circus more than 10 years before GreaseSpot and WayDale started. It was 1988 when I first saw that book, and bought it. I probably still have it.
I actually DO know the law of believing falls into that category WHEN the promises of God are not the focus of the believing.
Nosir. You are using the same concept occultist use to rationalize their magick. White vs black...its the same. Heck, Santeria even mixes way more Christianaty into their version of Yoruba Voudoun than most and they are still practicing magick. If you mix bible verses into occultism then you still have occultism with bible verses.
furthermore- also of that group of PFAL grads how many had their mental boundaries moved of what’s right and what’s wrong ? And without realizing they were being fooled?
Thinking more about wierwille’s unscrupulous ways gave me another angle on the thread title - being right or wrong doesn’t matter to a sociopath.
In The Sociopath Next Door author Martha Stout Ph.D. talks about other psychiatric diagnoses - including narcissism - involve some amount of personal pain or misery for the individuals who suffer from them. Sociopathy stands alone as a “disease” that causes no ‘dis-ease’ for the person who has it. Stout says sociopaths are often quite satisfied with themselves and their lives.
Singular in its ability to unnerve even seasoned professionals, the concept of sociopathy comes perilously close to our notions of the soul, of evil versus good - and this association makes the topic difficult to think about clearly.
Another thing Stout addresses is the idea that the sociopaths may believe they have an advantage. More than one sociopath has implied that conscience is simply a psychological corral for the masses. Most of us have had experiences in which someone unscrupulous has won, and having integrity begins to feel like playing the fool.
When someone makes a truly unconscionable choice, all we can come up with are explanations that come nowhere near the truth…what is possibly the single most meaningful characteristic that divides the human species- the presence or absence of conscience - we remain effectively oblivious. And even after we have learned the label for it, being devoid of a conscience is impossible for most human beings to imagine - probably no other experience so eludes empathy.
We can imagine total blindness (we have all been lost in the dark), clinical depression (we’ve all experienced some great loss). But NOT to care at all about the consequences of our actions on society, friends, family - our children - what on earth would that be like? We have no past experiences to inform us - no reference we can liken it to. Absolute guiltlessness defies the imagination.
end of stuff I got from the book - take that you Plagiarist Police - now I don’t feel so guilty for quoting from the book
Edited by T-Bone Claritin-D for those allergic to typos
I actually DO know the law of believing falls into that category WHEN the promises of God are not the focus of the believing. I am very familiar with the book "The Seduction of Christianity" and reported on it here not long ago, and a few other times over the years.
I keep trying to tell you folks that I was dragged into this whole circus more than 10 years before GreaseSpot and WayDale started. It was 1988 when I first saw that book, and bought it. I probably still have it.
I actually DO know the law of believing falls into that category WHEN the promises of God are not the focus of the believing. I am very familiar with the book "The Seduction of Christianity" and reported on it here not long ago, and a few other times over the years.
I keep trying to tell you folks that I was dragged into this whole circus more than 10 years before GreaseSpot and WayDale started. It was 1988 when I first saw that book, and bought it. I probably still have it.
Well I think the Collateral Guru is falling short on his PFAL here.
”The law of believing works for the saint and sinner alike”
Thinking more about wierwille’s unscrupulous ways gave me another angle on the thread title - being right or wrong doesn’t matter to a sociopath.
In The Sociopath Next Door author Martha Stout Ph.D. talks about other psychiatric diagnoses - including narcissism - involve some amount of personal or misery for the individuals who suffer from them. Sociopathy stands alone as a “disease” that causes no ‘dis-ease’ for the person who has it. Stout says sociopaths are often quite satisfied with themselves and their lives.
Singular in its ability to unnerve even seasoned professionals, the concept of sociopathy comes perilously close to our notions of the soul, of evil versus good - and this association makes the topic difficult to think about clearly.
Another thing Stout addresses is the idea that the sociopaths may believe they have an advantage. More than one sociopath has implied that conscience is simply a psychological corral for the masses. Most of us have had experiences in which someone unscrupulous has won, and having integrity begins to feel like playing the fool.
When someone makes a truly unconscionable choice, all we can come up with are explanations that come nowhere near the truth…what is possibly the single most meaningful characteristic that divides the human species- the presence or absence of conscience - we remain effectively oblivious. And even after we have learned the label for it, being devoid of a conscience is impossible for most human beings to imagine - probably no other experience so eludes empathy.
We can imagine total blindness (we have all been lost in the dark), clinical depression (we’ve all experienced some great loss). But NOT to care at all about the consequences of our actions on society, friends, family - our children - what on earth would that be like? We have no past experiences to inform us - no reference we can liken it to. Absolute guiltlessness defies the imagination.
I'm picturing someone for whom ostracism is of no concern. For most people that would be a threat.
Long ago ostracism meant death. But I guess someone could just hop from group to group.
(Sociopathy are sometimes called antisocial personality disorder, a member of cluster B)
Nosir. You are using the same concept occultist use to rationalize their magick. White vs black...its the same. Heck, Santeria even mixes way more Christianaty into their version of Yoruba Voudoun than most and they are still practicing magick. If you mix bible verses into occultisBible vm then you still have occultism with bible verses.
Bible verses can be used to justify anything, especially when wrongly divided.
I take my guidance on the proper operation of believing from how people in the Bible believed and were exhorted to believe. Of course, when not walking in love to serve with believing, and focusing on serving self with believing, THEN there is a problem. The book of James discusses this.
The devil always leaches off of God's good. Believing is good and from God and Jesus taught us to do it. The devil needs this genuine operation of believing to fuel his counterfeit. The problem is not the law of believing being evil, but the mis-guided operation of said law.
the exact same logic I used to employ to justify the law of believing.
The problem is the law of believing is scripture wrongly divided, that's the sleight of hand. Faith has to be redefined to beleiving. Pistis is actually a noun, where wierwille said it is a verb. Pisteuo is the verb form. Pistis means to trust, have confidence, or to carry a belief. We are to trust in God, he is the object of our faith, not ourselves.
Or do you expect different results trying to be clear this time, than the dozens or hundreds of time people have attempted to get this across to Mike over the previous 20 years?
I dunno...had you met me in person just back in 2019 you wouldve likely assumed that talking to me was a waster of air and that one day soon I would expire with a bottle in my hand. And it would have been a safe bet. Yet, somehow, something within me clicked and I decided to get sober as if my life depended on it. It was a culmination of many things that people had said to me over the years. So, when it comes to scripture and talking it through and such...my job is to plant and water when and where I can. The rest I leave to God. That doesnt mean I will always run on my little hamster wheel though, eventually I will check the rest of the cage out some too...
Ohhh!You’re breaking my heart for those poor victims!Men of God that are robbed blind of the just rewards for their writing and teaching efforts. Booo hoooo~They will have to wait all the way to the Return of Christ to be paid back!What do they do during the interim???
Oh! But WAIT!
I haven’t mentioned this in YEARS to the broken hearts here, sobbing uncontrollably for the victims of VPW stealing their soul from them.
Have you calculated how much FREE ADVERTISING that Kenyon, Stiles, BG Leonard, and all the others got from VPW’s efforts?
You were sensitive enough earlier on this thread, to recognize the free advertising that the SNL tapes were for TWI.Those “free advertising” brain circuits should still be warm, and able to recognize how VPW was a major advertising agent for Kenyon, Stiles, etc.
I would imagine that all those ministries got quite a shot in the arm from all the PFAL grads who bought their books, because they were impressed at how VPW endorsed them. I know I am an example of someone who contributed to them, because of VPW.
Has anyone done any research into this?I doubt it.Why would anyone here WANT to find such evidence?It would be anti-blasphemy against the anti-idol…..Oops!wait a minute….Maybe that should be straight-up blasphemy? or anti-blasphemy?Gotta be careful to avoid the glitches Bizzarro Superman often runs into.
vpw didn't give them "FREE ADVERTISING." vpw plagiarized their efforts and didn't say so. Every once in a while he'd quote something- that lulled people who trusted him into thinking he really cited his sources (he did it a LITTLE, but most of the time, he did NOT.)
twi tapes have twi information and twi labels on them. It's easy to see where they are from. Most, IIRC, have a MAILING ADDRESS on them. You can get a catalog or order some. Plagiarizing is the OPPOSITE of that.
Kenyon wasn't mentioned much, and Stiles wasn't mentioned AT ALL. In fact, vpw referred to him ANONYMOUSLY in one place, and later erased the mention of anyone else (the White Book.) So, that's the opposite of advertising.
All of this is known. "Has anyone done any research on this?" Are you kidding? You don't know by now?
We are to trust in God, he is the object of our faith, not ourselves.
THAT is the key I was taught.
The counterfeit is self-focused with the super-natural use of believing.
The natural use of believing is another story.
*/*/*/*
But the dangerous stuff is the supernatural ABUSE of believing, or the misapplication of the law of believing for supernatural powers.
The genuine use is the manifestations in accordance with 1 Cor 12,13,14.
Seven of the nine manifestations are focused away from self, and onto service to others. I call these the PURE SERVICE manifestations.
ONLY TWO of the nine manifestations are self-focused, and even they, SIT and believing, are closely related to the PURE SERVICE manifestations, and often used with the PURE SERVICE manifestations.
Nosir. You are using the same concept occultist use to rationalize their magick. White vs black...its the same. Heck, Santeria even mixes way more Christianaty into their version of Yoruba Voudoun than most and they are still practicing magick. If you mix bible verses into occultism then you still have occultism with bible verses.
So, in other words,
as instructed by vpw, twi, etc, to "operate the Law of Believing",
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waysider
I knew someone who died trying to make it work. Then, the ministry blamed him for not having big enough believing. He left behind a wife and 2 young kids.
WordWolf
Every once in a while, in society and here, there's someone who engages in this specific fallacy. "I must be right because I'm in the minority." "I must be right because lots of people keep insistin
chockfull
As a different direction with respect to all of the philosophical angles on the law of believing, I am considering Jesus teachings in Matt 6:27 “which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his
So_crates
Great idea Mike. That idea is so good, you should start washing windows for free. Don't worry, you'll get the rewards for your generosity at the return.
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T-Bone
Window washing - brainwashing, what’s the diff?
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chockfull
So those at HQ 72-75. You know most of them. Did any you know of check out Stiles, Kenyon, Leonard? Or did they censor to collaterals like you?
Those taking PFAL on field never heard any informal references. And there are no formal. So….
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waysider
Such as...?
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OldSkool
Its called Gematria. Its occultisim. I would say your assessment is correct.
The law of believing falls in the same category, althought I am sure you aren't ready to get into that concept just yet.
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OldSkool
@Mike --- Just to be clear, stealing, lying, cheating, etc. are always wrong no matter the perpetrator. There is a higher standard on ministers, pastors, etc. to exemplify honesty in all matters. So the idea that wierwille stole the word from someone else but it's God's word violates the spirit, or intent of scripture on stealng. It doesnt work to try and apply intent in reverse to justify stealing because someone stole with good intent. Stealing is stealing is stealing. wierwille was unethical and dishonest to take other's works and say they were his. Plagairism is wrong no matter who perepetrates and no matter the content.
Scripture is public domain. Quote it all day. But even then I give a reference and acknowledge it's from the Bible.
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Rocky
Just to be clear, are you suggesting, dear Old Skool, you've never seen this particular issue addressed before on GSC?
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Rocky
Or do you expect different results trying to be clear this time, than the dozens or hundreds of time people have attempted to get this across to Mike over the previous 20 years?
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Rocky
Or... do we suffer from emotional pain seeing Mike regurgitate the same bull$hit every day?
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OldSkool
Hey, Ive got more hair than that...(says the guy ignoring hes on a hamster wheel) Fair enough Sir Rocky!
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Mike
I actually DO know the law of believing falls into that category WHEN the promises of God are not the focus of the believing. I am very familiar with the book "The Seduction of Christianity" and reported on it here not long ago, and a few other times over the years.
I keep trying to tell you folks that I was dragged into this whole circus more than 10 years before GreaseSpot and WayDale started. It was 1988 when I first saw that book, and bought it. I probably still have it.
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OldSkool
Nosir. You are using the same concept occultist use to rationalize their magick. White vs black...its the same. Heck, Santeria even mixes way more Christianaty into their version of Yoruba Voudoun than most and they are still practicing magick. If you mix bible verses into occultism then you still have occultism with bible verses.
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T-Bone
Thinking more about wierwille’s unscrupulous ways gave me another angle on the thread title - being right or wrong doesn’t matter to a sociopath.
In The Sociopath Next Door author Martha Stout Ph.D. talks about other psychiatric diagnoses - including narcissism - involve some amount of personal pain or misery for the individuals who suffer from them. Sociopathy stands alone as a “disease” that causes no ‘dis-ease’ for the person who has it. Stout says sociopaths are often quite satisfied with themselves and their lives.
Singular in its ability to unnerve even seasoned professionals, the concept of sociopathy comes perilously close to our notions of the soul, of evil versus good - and this association makes the topic difficult to think about clearly.
Another thing Stout addresses is the idea that the sociopaths may believe they have an advantage. More than one sociopath has implied that conscience is simply a psychological corral for the masses. Most of us have had experiences in which someone unscrupulous has won, and having integrity begins to feel like playing the fool.
When someone makes a truly unconscionable choice, all we can come up with are explanations that come nowhere near the truth…what is possibly the single most meaningful characteristic that divides the human species- the presence or absence of conscience - we remain effectively oblivious. And even after we have learned the label for it, being devoid of a conscience is impossible for most human beings to imagine - probably no other experience so eludes empathy.
We can imagine total blindness (we have all been lost in the dark), clinical depression (we’ve all experienced some great loss). But NOT to care at all about the consequences of our actions on society, friends, family - our children - what on earth would that be like? We have no past experiences to inform us - no reference we can liken it to. Absolute guiltlessness defies the imagination.
end of stuff I got from the book - take that you Plagiarist Police - now I don’t feel so guilty for quoting from the book
Edited by T-BoneClaritin-D for those allergic to typos
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Bolshevik
You mean, The Word?
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chockfull
Well I think the Collateral Guru is falling short on his PFAL here.
”The law of believing works for the saint and sinner alike”
What killed that boy?
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Bolshevik
I'm picturing someone for whom ostracism is of no concern. For most people that would be a threat.
Long ago ostracism meant death. But I guess someone could just hop from group to group.
(Sociopathy are sometimes called antisocial personality disorder, a member of cluster B)
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Mike
Bible verses can be used to justify anything, especially when wrongly divided.
I take my guidance on the proper operation of believing from how people in the Bible believed and were exhorted to believe. Of course, when not walking in love to serve with believing, and focusing on serving self with believing, THEN there is a problem. The book of James discusses this.
The devil always leaches off of God's good. Believing is good and from God and Jesus taught us to do it. The devil needs this genuine operation of believing to fuel his counterfeit. The problem is not the law of believing being evil, but the mis-guided operation of said law.
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OldSkool
the exact same logic I used to employ to justify the law of believing.
The problem is the law of believing is scripture wrongly divided, that's the sleight of hand. Faith has to be redefined to beleiving. Pistis is actually a noun, where wierwille said it is a verb. Pisteuo is the verb form. Pistis means to trust, have confidence, or to carry a belief. We are to trust in God, he is the object of our faith, not ourselves.
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OldSkool
I dunno...had you met me in person just back in 2019 you wouldve likely assumed that talking to me was a waster of air and that one day soon I would expire with a bottle in my hand. And it would have been a safe bet. Yet, somehow, something within me clicked and I decided to get sober as if my life depended on it. It was a culmination of many things that people had said to me over the years. So, when it comes to scripture and talking it through and such...my job is to plant and water when and where I can. The rest I leave to God. That doesnt mean I will always run on my little hamster wheel though, eventually I will check the rest of the cage out some too...
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waysider
Yes or No
Did Wierwille say the law of believing "works for saint and sinner alike"?
No essays, please.
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chockfull
Wow I have personally never heard a better one line summary of PFAL in a long while. Good job.
I’m gonna add that one to the Why PFAL sucks thread.
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WordWolf
vpw didn't give them "FREE ADVERTISING." vpw plagiarized their efforts and didn't say so. Every once in a while he'd quote something- that lulled people who trusted him into thinking he really cited his sources (he did it a LITTLE, but most of the time, he did NOT.)
twi tapes have twi information and twi labels on them. It's easy to see where they are from. Most, IIRC, have a MAILING ADDRESS on them. You can get a catalog or order some. Plagiarizing is the OPPOSITE of that.
Kenyon wasn't mentioned much, and Stiles wasn't mentioned AT ALL. In fact, vpw referred to him ANONYMOUSLY in one place, and later erased the mention of anyone else (the White Book.) So, that's the opposite of advertising.
All of this is known. "Has anyone done any research on this?" Are you kidding? You don't know by now?
http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_founder.htm
We've discussed this a lot.
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Mike
THAT is the key I was taught.
The counterfeit is self-focused with the super-natural use of believing.
The natural use of believing is another story.
*/*/*/*
But the dangerous stuff is the supernatural ABUSE of believing, or the misapplication of the law of believing for supernatural powers.
The genuine use is the manifestations in accordance with 1 Cor 12,13,14.
Seven of the nine manifestations are focused away from self, and onto service to others. I call these the PURE SERVICE manifestations.
ONLY TWO of the nine manifestations are self-focused, and even they, SIT and believing, are closely related to the PURE SERVICE manifestations, and often used with the PURE SERVICE manifestations.
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WordWolf
So, in other words,
as instructed by vpw, twi, etc, to "operate the Law of Believing",
is to engage in white magic, witchcraft?
(The answer is yes. Shocking, isn't it?)
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