Why can you get blessings in a group that's harmful, and when it's led by a full-blown fraud?

[WordWolf]

When it comes down to it,

one of the baldest claims left for a few is this:

"I got some blessings when I was in twi. I saw some blessings when I was in twi. Therefore, twi must have been designed by God Almighty, twi must have been endorsed by and approved of God Almighty,  and its leader must have been appointed by God Almighty, and everything he said must have been endorsed by Fod Almighty." 

For the sake of discussion, let's give the benefit of the first doubt.

Many will say- with reason- that most-or ALL-  of the blessings were PERCEPTUAL.  That is, they were life just happening as normal with NO interference by any Being, but the observer pronounces all of them as A Blessing From God.   In twi, things got so miserable that people were counting the finding of a good parking spot as Supernatural Involvement By God Almighty...  as if it's impossible to find a good parking spot without Divine Intervention.  If that's the level of the involvement of God Almighty,  then it's small wonder that people would doubt there was a God. (Or not be impressed if that's the best He can do for His people.)

So, let us give the benefit of that doubt.  Let us suppose- for the sake of this discussion if nothing else- that one is NOT talking of that, one is talking of things far more noteworthy- healings in seconds or minutes of things that take days or weeks,  or things MORE dramatic than that.  (Actual results from an actual God.)

IF one is getting actual blessings from God Almighty,  and one is in a group like twi, with a leader like vpw, does it logically follow that God Almighty is marking out twi/vpw as anything special, that He is endorsing both or either?  

In plain language, what would it mean to get answers to prayers while being in twi?

[OldSkool]

4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

IF one is getting actual blessings from God Almighty,  and one is in a group like twi, with a leader like vpw, does it logically follow that God Almighty is marking out twi/vpw as anything special, that He is endorsing both or either?  

In plain language, what would it mean to get answers to prayers while being in twi?

I dont think that God actually endorses any organization. Its people who say that their organizations are godly and God is involved. So, I feel that God transcends organisations whether they are good bad or indifferent. Organizations are the works of men and Jesus Christ will judge the works of men on their own merit on that future day. So some organizations may be right on target and others not so much. To say that God instituted a 501-c3 is ludicrous. Especially when you search the history/requirements for a 501-c3 because there is a strong influence of what can be said or not said or you lose your tax exemption status. So the claim that the way international is gawds minustree is complete trash.

God is not limited by an organization, in fact God isn't limited. With that said, God loves his people even if we are deluded on our various doctrines and are stumbling around from here to tin-buck two in cult land. Nothing will seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. So, whether in TWI or the roman catholic church God takes care of his people and loves and nurtures in spite of how goofy we get on doctrinal issues. 

Now does that mean there arent consequences for doctrinal errors? Nope. Wierwille's writings and hodge podge theology scrambled my eggs rather well when it come to all things God/Jesus Christ and Im still sorting it out.

Does it mean that God endorses an ungodly cultic organization like the way international because his people are unfortunately stuck in it's grips? Well, did God endorse the pharisees because Saul was a participant for much of his earlier life? What we see is Jesus Christ drawing Paul out of the corrupt organization he was in and setting him on a new trajectory and newness of life. Paul was willing to be led.

So my long winded answer is God isnt endorsing a group or its leader by taking care of those who are involved in said group(s) thats just what God does.

When I got answers to prayers in TWI it simply meant that God answered my prayers. Now, I used to think it was reflective of the doctrines that TWI taught....now I just understand that God loves us no matter what and he will bless his people in spite of doctrinal issues. Christianity isnt an intellectual pursuit, though wierwille tried to make it that way. God looks on the heart and scripture is filled with people who loved God, had faith, and lots of error in their minds. Moses was a pagan at the time he turned aside to see the burning bush, yet God lit the bush anyway. None of us have the full picture at this time.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by OldSkool

[chockfull]

In plain language that would be due to Gods mercy.  

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, chockfull said:

In plain language that would be due to Gods mercy.  

That's a huge point! If it weren't for his mercy and grace we would all be toast.

[Bolshevik]

I was born, I'm told, due to miracle healings after concerted prayer in TWI.  I'm occasionally reminded about this, at times from people I don't know.

What irritates me to no end is that one stupid moment is more important than the tens of thousands of moments since.

What good is a miracle if that moment pauses life, ignoring everything else that goes on? 

You got blessed one time or ten times 30, 40, 50 years ago . . . What goes on every day since?  

This is the work of an anemic God.  Only good for a few tricks, after which his followers stop living life, since they've hit their peak now.

Remember that one time?  Yeah, one time?  Good for you.  Loser.

The witness of the lives of the followers of The Way speaks.  A long time ago they got blessed.  And then they stopped growing as people.

What's to look forward to?  What has been built?  What sort of legacy is "I got really blessed and learned a lot"?

How would anyone be in awe of THAT God?

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmph

[WordWolf]

Anyone who cares enough can go among a lot of Christian groups, and find stories among many of them, stories of deliverance, of blessings, of miracles, of healings.    What does that tell us about blessings and the Christian groups?

Someone desperate to find some label, some group, some brand, might say that ALL of those are endorsed by God.

I think most would conclude that the blessings of God in the lives of people are completely unrelated to whatever groups they are in, or are NOT in.  twi, and vpw and lcm especially, used to be very vocal with its adherents about how the blessings of God would abandon them if they left twi, and He would not protect them, and so on. They would be "a greasespot by midnight."   Well, midnight has come and gone, and we're still moving on with our lives, generally better-off than when twi was a part of our lives.

Edited February 2, 2023 by WordWolf
.

[OldSkool]

7 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I was born, I'm told, due to miracle healings after concerted prayer in TWI.  I'm occasionally reminded about this, at times from people I don't know.

And Im sure that you are reminded how the minustree that taught da verd was the reason...egads...

Thank God I got the heck outta there in 2008 and wised the heck up. All that my son went through when was born and the miracles that happened with him were alway credited to God and not the way international. My son barely knows who they are, but he knows enough to run for the exits if ever gets near anything from that place.

Their limited God is not the same God described in the Bible. Thats a false version, a scaled down version that fits neatly in their little box.

[Bolshevik]

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

. . .

Their limited God is not the same God described in the Bible. Thats a false version, a scaled down version that fits neatly in their little box.

 

That's what's commonly referred to as "The Great Principle"

[Twinky]

Mt 5:  43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,s 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

See, you can get blessings whether you are righteous or unrighteous - whether you do what TWI says, or whether you are a grease spot by midnight.  You get sun and rain just the same.  God's blessings don't depend on us being part of some organisation, or indeed on anything at all apart from God's goodness. 

However: Php4:Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

If you want God's peace as well as his general blessings, there are things that you need to do.  And: John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

You get blessings because of your confidence and trust in God.  Not because of your confidence and trust in some orgnisation.  Especially a corrupt one.

 

[chockfull]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:15 PM, WordWolf said:

Anyone who cares enough can go among a lot of Christian groups, and find stories among many of them, stories of deliverance, of blessings, of miracles, of healings.    What does that tell us about blessings and the Christian groups?

Someone desperate to find some label, some group, some brand, might say that ALL of those are endorsed by God.

I think most would conclude that the blessings of God in the lives of people are completely unrelated to whatever groups they are in, or are NOT in.  twi, and vpw and lcm especially, used to be very vocal with its adherents about how the blessings of God would abandon them if they left twi, and He would not protect them, and so on. They would be "a greasespot by midnight."   Well, midnight has come and gone, and we're still moving on with our lives, generally better-off than when twi was a part of our lives.

Yes that is because Christianity is intended to be a grassroots movement among the people as opposed to a vehicle to make money in the world as businesses are.

[Rocky]

9 hours ago, Twinky said:

However: ... Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

This not to say if the God of peace is with you, you won't have any challenges, pressure situations, or tribulations. Just that you can be resilient because he is with you.  

[Rocky]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:54 AM, OldSkool said:

Thats a false version, a scaled down version that fits neatly in their little box.

Little box or litter box? 

[OldSkool]

10 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Little box or litter box? 

The latter...

[WordWolf]

17 hours ago, Twinky said:

Mt 5:  43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,s 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

See, you can get blessings whether you are righteous or unrighteous - whether you do what TWI says, or whether you are a grease spot by midnight.  You get sun and rain just the same.  God's blessings don't depend on us being part of some organization, or indeed on anything at all apart from God's goodness. 

However: Php4:Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

If you want God's peace as well as his general blessings, there are things that you need to do.  And: John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

You get blessings because of your confidence and trust in God.  Not because of your confidence and trust in some organization.  Especially a corrupt one.

 

 

[WordWolf]

OldSKool: "When I got answers to prayers in TWI it simply meant that God answered my prayers. Now, I used to think it was reflective of the doctrines that TWI taught....now I just understand that God loves us no matter what and he will bless his people in spite of doctrinal issues. Christianity isnt an intellectual pursuit, though wierwille tried to make it that way. God looks on the heart and scripture is filled with people who loved God, had faith, and lots of error in their minds. Moses was a pagan at the time he turned aside to see the burning bush, yet God lit the bush anyway. None of us have the full picture at this time. " 

This isn't difficult to understand. It might be difficult to ACCEPT if one clinging to error and encounters the truth. I am thankful that few people here actually have that problem.