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Did vpw claim to write The Scriptures?


WordWolf
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20 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well, give Mike some time to check his notes to see if your experience was REALLY that, or maybe none of us paid attention and forgot what was in the class.

What’s ironic are the times when I have admitted being young and naïve to fall for wierwille’s con – and Mike jumps on that to say how smart and discerning he was to ignore wierwille’s  ‘petty shortcomings’  and just absorb ‘The Word’. A weird role reversal for sure… maybe a pot calling the kettle black thing.

 

"The pot calling the kettle black" is a proverbial idiom that may be of Spanish origin, of which English versions began to appear in the first half of the 17th century. It means a situation in which somebody accuses someone else of a fault which the accuser shares, and therefore is an example of psychological projection,[1] or hypocrisy.[2] Use of the expression to discredit or deflect a claim of wrongdoing by attacking the originator of the claim for their own similar behavior (rather than acknowledging the guilt of both) is the tu quoque logical fallacy.”

From: The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia

 

"oh, I feel so stupid! Why didn't I just ignore wierwille's petty shortcomings of plagiarism, delusions of grandeur, egocentrism, hypocrisy, moral depravity and just absorb 'The Word'...(then looking upward toward a predator's haven, with tears streaming down face - as seen on TV - hi Jimmy Swaggonmeister ) I have sinned Lord Anti-Idol !"

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1 hour ago, waysider said:

Since Mike appears to be unwilling or unable to answer the question directly, I'll throw this out here informally.

Who here was under the initial impression that Wierwille had authored the "literals"?

Oops!  You have a point.
I thought I did answer at the very end.
But I see now, it was only a vague implication I put there.

I wrote: "I didn’t even hear about “literals” until at least a year later.
I did not care where VPW got the literals from."

I spent the introduction building to the "I did not care" about who wrote them.

I really didn't care.

My early mind pictures of TWI were VPW surrounded by a fairly large (and growing) team of wonderful teachers and researchers.  I would eat up every article in each Way Magazine, listen to SNT tapes no matter who taught, and travel to see live teachings by anyone on the team.

I came into the ministry pre-disposed to not care about
who came up with what idea,
compared to how much I cared about the ideas.

The literals only appeared to me very gradually.  SO gradually that I have no idea when they started. They were "Top Secret - Classified Corps Documents" to second-class Wayfers like me.  My earliest clear memory of the Literals is 1981-ish, just as VPW was clearly stepping out of the picture, and Craig was named to step in soon.  I remember asking to get copies of the literals before VPW died, but was refused.  Somehow I had gotten a copy of Ephesians, and heard there were more, so that was why I was asking. 

I think I finally got a complete set after the collapse of the ministry in 1986, and all kinds of refugees streaming out of TWI brought with them all sorts of materials that they considered good, and worth protecting and preserving from TWI clutches. 

I also remember in those days, grads who were angry at VPW, were giving away their entire Home Way Library, or selling them in pieces at a garage sale.  I got tons of stuff that way, over the course of 10 years or so.  Somewhere in there the Literals became mine, in very poor Xerox form.

My ONLY impression of the source of the Literals gradually formed to be:  they came from "the team" surrounding VPW. 

It wasn't until recent years, here, that I heard reports that some of the literals came from here or there. 

I never heard any rumor or report, nor seen anything in writing saying that VPW wrote them. 

When I said I didn't care, I meant I REALLY did not care all these years who wrote them or how. As a result my mind was pretty much a blank slate with a faint watermark saying "by The Team." 

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16 minutes ago, Mike said:

Oops!  You have a point.
I thought I did answer at the very end.
But I see now, it was only a vague implication I put there.

I wrote: "I didn’t even hear about “literals” until at least a year later.
I did not care where VPW got the literals from."

I spent the introduction building to the "I did not care" about who wrote them.

I really didn't care.

My early mind pictures of TWI were VPW surrounded by a fairly large (and growing) team of wonderful teachers and researchers.  I would eat up every article in each Way Magazine, listen to SNT tapes no matter who taught, and travel to see live teachings by anyone on the team.

I came into the ministry pre-disposed to not care about
who came up with what idea,
compared to how much I cared about the ideas.

The literals only appeared to me very gradually.  SO gradually that I have no idea when they started. They were "Top Secret - Classified Corps Documents" to second-class Wayfers like me.  My earliest clear memory of the Literals is 1981-ish, just as VPW was clearly stepping out of the picture, and Craig was named to step in soon.  I remember asking to get copies of the literals before VPW died, but was refused.  Somehow I had gotten a copy of Ephesians, and heard there were more, so that was why I was asking. 

I think I finally got a complete set after the collapse of the ministry in 1986, and all kinds of refugees streaming out of TWI brought with them all sorts of materials that they considered good, and worth protecting and preserving from TWI clutches. 

I also remember in those days, grads who were angry at VPW, were giving away their entire Home Way Library, or selling them in pieces at a garage sale.  I got tons of stuff that way, over the course of 10 years or so.  Somewhere in there the Literals became mine, in very poor Xerox form.

My ONLY impression of the source of the Literals gradually formed to be:  they came from "the team" surrounding VPW. 

It wasn't until recent years, here, that I heard reports that some of the literals came from here or there. 

I never heard any rumor or report, nor seen anything in writing saying that VPW wrote them. 

When I said I didn't care, I meant I REALLY did not care all these years who wrote them or how. As a result my mind was pretty much a blank slate with a faint watermark saying "by The Team." 

You didn't care where they came from?!

So what your trying to tell me is Saint Vic could have lied about what the literals stated, you'd have no way of probing it one way or the other, and you're okay with that. 

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So, you're OK with receiving stolen property?

I think there are laws somewhere that address that sort of thing.

Oh, but wait. God told him to steal them so it's all good. 

amiright?

 

For the record, I don't really care what they say or if they're accurate. My point of concern is that he presented them in a way that implied he was the originator. He wasn't.

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21 minutes ago, waysider said:

My point of concern is that he presented them in a way that implied he was the originator. He wasn't.

Not to mention the way international still push his lying claims as well....it's not harmless. Lying to people is wrong on so many levels.

Edited by OldSkool
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2 hours ago, chockfull said:

All of this is playing down human creativity.

One thing Wierwille never was: a neuroscientist.

34146662.jpg

From Goodreads.com

The Runaway Species: How human creativity remakes the world is a deep-dive into the creative mind, a celebration of the human spirit, and a vision of how humanity can improve our future by understanding and embracing our ability to innovate. Anthony Brandt and David Eagleman rifle through the inventions of human society like paleontologists ransacking the fossil record. Exploring examples from Apollo 13 to Pablo Picasso, they seek to answer the question: what lies at the heart of humanity's ability--and drive--to create? If you took a snapshot of any animal species' behavior, from apes to barnacles, and contrasted it with the same species 10,000 years ago, they'd all be carrying on pretty much as usual (and if they aren't, it's likely due to human influence). Humanity, on the other hand, would be nearly unrecognizable. Above all else, our drive to create is what makes us unique among all living things. Yet where does this all creation, innovation, and change come from? Why us? And if we better understand this -cognitive software-, can we harness it more responsibly to improve our lives, schools, businesses and institutions? Brandt and Eagleman examine hundreds of examples of human creativity through dramatic storytelling and stunning images in this beautiful, full-color volume. By drawing out what creative acts have in common and viewing them through the lens of cutting-edge neuroscience, they uncover the essential elements of this critical human ability, and encourage a more creative future for all of us.

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After refreshing my recollection of some content in The Runaway Species, I realize and recognize Wierwille likely did, in devising the "literal translation according to usage" (or was it the literal interpretation according to Victor's usage) some of the things the authors of this book describe as the creative process. Much of creativity, they say, is more or less putting things together, modifying them. 

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6 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Much of creativity, they say, is more or less putting things together, modifying them. 

And hers' the thing...I would have no problem with wierwille "putting things together" if had hadnt lied and said God taught him the Word like it hadnt been known since the first century and then one finds out that most all he "put together" supposedly under God's direction came from contemporary sources without the original aouthor's knowledge or permission. Think the call that p..p..p...la..g...what that word ?

Edited by OldSkool
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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

What’s ironic are the times when I have admitted being young and naïve to fall for wierwille’s con – and Mike jumps on that to say how smart and discerning he was to ignore wierwille’s  ‘petty shortcomings’  and just absorb ‘The Word’. A weird role reversal for sure… maybe a pot calling the kettle black thing.

 

I think the problem with mike having been bullied by some way corps guys at some point is he never really took the time to understand the extremem indoctrination process we all went through in our way corps training. Ive spent COUNTLESS hours working the way internationals classes and books....I wish the heck I could forget them...

 

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

"oh, I feel so stupid! Why didn't I just ignore wierwille's petty shortcomings of plagiarism, delusions of grandeur, egocentrism, hypocrisy, moral depravity and just absorb 'The Word'...(then looking upward toward a predator's haven, with tears streaming down face - as seen on TV - hi Jimmy Swaggonmeister ) I have sinned Lord Anti-Idol !"

Hear hear!!

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WordWolf:

"For those wondering,  the Amplified Bible's New Testament was completed in 1958, and the bound full Bible was in stores as of 1965, published by ZONDERVAN, the same company that sells a bunch of reference books in the twi bookstore.  So, yes, vpw was aware of the thing.  Naturally, I'm expecting someone to claim either that vpw got that by revelation and it was an astonishing coincidence they read the same, or that God told vpw to plagiarize that version and verse and make sure to leave out any reference to the Amplified Bible. "

 

Mike:

"It amazes me how much speculation and theorizing you all do that is totally off the beam.

VPW cites the Amplified Bible in:

RHST - twice

BTMS - once

TNDC - twice

GMWD - once

69-01 Mag - twice

82-11 Mag - once

I first saw it in the Green Book in 1971, so I went out and bought a copy."

 

WordWolf:  It's fascinating how you can both completely miss the point, make fun of me for making a claim- and support the claim all at the same time.  The only thing I needed to support was that vpw had heard of the Amplified Bible- thank you for confirming that he did!

We all know he plagiarized the thing.  

Your point about him citing the Amplified Bible in SOME places, and plagiarizing it in OTHER places, is without merit. Raf pointed this out 20 years ago. It's like answering claims that Jeffrey Dahmer ate people by citing the people Dahmer DIDN'T eat, and standing there proudly as if this somehow affected the number of people he DID eat.

I didn't speculate or theorize anything. I made a case and supported it with evidence that anyone with sense can see. Sorry if it escaped you, but I can't help that.

 

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8 hours ago, waysider said:

So, you're OK with receiving stolen property?

I think there are laws somewhere that address that sort of thing.

Oh, but wait. God told him to steal them so it's all good. 

amiright?

 

For the record, I don't really care what they say or if they're accurate. My point of concern is that he presented them in a way that implied he was the originator. He wasn't.

It's another example of vpw taking credit for the work of others. It's dishonest. In this case, it was also illegal since The Amplified Bible is under copyright.  He could have made the same points by citing his sources and a brief quote.  vpw frequently skipped his sources and insinuated he authored the work of others - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger,  twi staffers, etc.   It's both illegal and immoral.   But neither of those matter to Mike because he will endorse anything pfal related because he's convinced himself that all the evidence to the contrary is to be avoided, and the idea that pfal is from God Almighty is to be clung to dogmatically-  all because he got blessed in twi.... as if one relates to the other at all.

 

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7 hours ago, OldSkool said:

And hers' the thing...I would have no problem with wierwille "putting things together" if had hadnt lied and said God taught him the Word like it hadnt been known since the first century and then one finds out that most all he "put together" supposedly under God's direction came from contemporary sources without the original aouthor's knowledge or permission. Think the call that p..p..p...la..g...what that word ?

I was perfectly fine being an eclecticist, and adding the best of whatever I found to whatever twi was teaching... which, incidentally, made it a lot easier to leave twi when the truth started coming out.  If vpw had openly been an eclecticist, there wouldn't be all the problems there were and there would be no GSC.

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T-Bone:

"What’s ironic are the times when I have admitted being young and naïve to fall for wierwille’s con – and Mike jumps on that to say how smart and discerning he was to ignore wierwille’s  ‘petty shortcomings’  and just absorb ‘The Word’. A weird role reversal for sure… maybe a pot calling the kettle black thing."

 

WordWolf:

While I do believe it's true that Mike remembers it that way NOW, I'm well aware that his memory of things- including interactions here- often vary widely from what actually happened.  I don't think Mike was even a fraction of the savvy he tells himself- and us-  that he was back then.  Part of why I say that is that his accounts of what he believed when keep contradicting each other by decades.  That's either the sign of someone who's editing all his memories, a compulsive liar, or incipient Alzheimer's.

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10 minutes ago, waysider said:

¿Por qué no los tres?

Just applying Occam's Razor. It's possible, but less likely. I'd need something more concrete than opinions before going there. The current evidence was enough to support any one of the three.  It's my OPINION it's not the second, but either the first, or the third, although both is certainly within the realm of possibility.  I try not to jump to something because it's "possible" without something more solid to go on. 

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19 hours ago, OldSkool said:

And hers' the thing...I would have no problem with wierwille "putting things together" if had hadnt lied and said God taught him the Word like it hadnt been known since the first century and then one finds out that most all he "put together" supposedly under God's direction came from contemporary sources without the original aouthor's knowledge or permission. Think the call that p..p..p...la..g...what that word ?

Wierwille was unique amongst his peers - like for instance Branham followers all state it openly and there is some form of Christian interaction involved.  Even if one I don’t support or agree with.  There are maybe 3 or 4 different Branham influenced denominations for example.

Wierwille I think due to failed early ecumenical attempts to start a new church and sustain it started going more and more off the deep end of isolationist conspiracy theory.

At the extreme end of that people are wearing tin hats to protect from their brain waves being intercepted.

So his hiding of major sources Kenyon, Stiles, and Leonard behind his core class really shows through down through the next generations.

Now you have a complete isolation from the body of Christ and from my experience even isolation from common sense things in life like housing cars business investments and education.  That is a dangerous combination.

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20 hours ago, OldSkool said:

And hers' the thing...I would have no problem with wierwille "putting things together" if had hadnt lied and said God taught him the Word like it hadnt been known since the first century and then one finds out that most all he "put together" supposedly under God's direction came from contemporary sources without the original aouthor's knowledge or permission. Think the call that p..p..p...la..g...what that word ?

 

Putting what together?  

I could copy a bunch of text from internet sources right now, put it all in one post, claim credit . . . that doesn't make it coherent.

"Putting it all together" assumes something was put together without having to state what it is.

 

(edited to add Lomax when off on this on me once pounding his desk "put it all together". . . don't know why . . . wasn't the topic of discussion)

Edited by Bolshevik
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13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

It's another example of vpw taking credit for the work of others. It's dishonest. In this case, it was also illegal since The Amplified Bible is under copyright.  He could have made the same points by citing his sources and a brief quote.  vpw frequently skipped his sources and insinuated he authored the work of others - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger,  twi staffers, etc.   It's both illegal and immoral.   But neither of those matter to Mike because he will endorse anything pfal related because he's convinced himself that all the evidence to the contrary is to be avoided, and the idea that pfal is from God Almighty is to be clung to dogmatically-  all because he got blessed in twi.... as if one relates to the other at all.

 

I'm envisioning this guy Wierwille, copying this thing and that thing one after another . . . a kleptomaniac starved for the next Xerox, . . . a void that can't be filled.  The immorality and legality seem to pale in comparison to the uncontrollable compulsion.

He copied not once, not twice . . . so much so that this pervasive pattern of behavior points to a possible mental illness.  He could not stop.

People like this it's a matter of time before others see there's no actual person beneath the veneer, and move away, only repeating the cycle of this starved individual.

The reason he plagiarized was to bring people near him.  His plagiarism is a reason people moved away from him.

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27 minutes ago, waysider said:

When I was in Jr. High, I did a book report on Huckleberry Finn. (using Cliff Notes, of course)

At the next school assembly, I was awarded a PhD.

I was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature for ghost-writing Being and Nothingness.

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

FYI : I’m channeling a Kristen Wiig character on SNL…she’s super competitive and is obsessed with one-upping anybody…. But this also is a dream within a dream - since I received an Emmy for creating that character for Kristen.

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21 hours ago, Rocky said:

After refreshing my recollection of some content in The Runaway Species, I realize and recognize Wierwille likely did, in devising the "literal translation according to usage" (or was it the literal interpretation according to Victor's usage) some of the things the authors of this book describe as the creative process. Much of creativity, they say, is more or less putting things together, modifying them. 

Yes this is his creative name for what is otherwise known in the Christian world as “commentaries”.

”Commentaries” are among all the other writings about the Bible in VPs collection that he took to the trash from his statement to “focus on the Word exclusively”.

Apparently the 3 “commentaries” or writings about “the Word” he retained were the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard.

Those he copied pretty literally and exactly.

This is a flim flam snake oil magic trick to mask VPs ego in the “commentary”.

See? It’s not VP interpreting the verse but only how the verse tells you to interpret itself.  Removing the “teacher” and magically looking like you found his translation right there by obvious choice.

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