Has the Way International Seperated Themselves from Victor Paul Wierwille?

[OldSkool]

There are certain folks who seem to think there are verious versions of the way internatinal and that the way international de-coupled from it's founder, Victor Paul wierwille, and his practices many years ago to the extent that the way international no longer represents VPW.

Now, I understand that martindale wanted to "outdo" wierwille and tried to be the leading face on all things TWI....but did that decouple wierwille from TWI?

Has the way corps training decoupled from the way VPW set it up?

Have the classes decoupled from VPW?

Have the various publications decoupled frm VPW?

From the way internatinal's own webiste:

https://www.theway.org/about-us/about-the-founder/

Personally, I was in the way international during a very transitional time where martindale became the fall guy many misdeeds, including adultery and RICO charges. I personally witnessed and was involved in a very thorough whitewash of all things VPW. I saw first hand the way international become a preservation society where wierwille's legacy was nearly deified...I mean they have a life-sized bronze statue of the man in their auditorium. 

Thoughts?

Edited February 1, 2023 by OldSkool
Changed title from Can to Has...

[OldSkool]

To be clear, I feel the way international has done a better job representing victor paul wierwille did that wierwille actually did when he was alive. I mean, hes dead and gone, so it's relatively easy to hide all his escapades without him here continuing in the same escapades. Those who have knowingly hidden his sins and wrong doing are now part of the same sins and will answer to Christ appropriately.

[Bolshevik]

Cults, ideological tyrants, social media, abusive relationships, seem to all have cluster B behaviors and therefore thinking behind them as a common denominator.  In that way yes TWI can decouple. VPW is often described as a Malignant Narcissist and therefore traits can be extracted and practiced because VPW did not write the book on Cluster B.  He is one of millions of examples.

However, if TWI is tied to an origin story involving snow up their gas hump, it may be unlikely to decouple.

[OldSkool]

11 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Cults, ideological tyrants, social media, abusive relationships, seem to all have cluster B behaviors and therefore thinking behind them as a common denominator.  In that way yes TWI can decouple. VPW is often described as a Malignant Narcissist and therefore traits can be extracted and practiced because VPW did not write the book on Cluster B.  He is one of millions of examples.

However, if TWI is tied to an origin story involving snow up their gas hump, it may be unlikely to decouple.

Cool. Great perspective...can I summarize as saying possible but not probable?

[Bolshevik]

8 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Cool. Great perspective...can I summarize as saying possible but not probable?

Yep

[OldSkool]

FWIW - I changed the title to more accurately match my intent with this thread. I changed it from "Can the Way international be seperated from"....to "Has the Way International Seperated Themselves from Victor Paul Wierwille?"

"There are those that claim TWI has seperated themselves" meaning that there is a TWI 1,2,3,4, ∞"

[Bolshevik]

No.

[chockfull]

No they are making no attempt to do so.

Exactly the opposite- they are doubling down on his work 

[Charity]

My knowledge on this topic is limited to what I have read on GSC.  Among the volumes that have been written about how twi has not strayed away from vp, I think I remember reading about a few changes they've made.

Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has?  Just as in vp days, there's no way of knowing unless victims come forward. 

It's hard to remember which thread I read this on but recently there was a post that people taking the advanced class are now allowed to have a mortgage. I'll give this some thought. 

Now if the poster who bets his life on the accuracy and authority of the written PFAL collaterals and still has a connection with the local fellowships of the newest version of twi can give specific examples only about this topic, that might prove helpful.  What are the odds for betting on that happening?

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Charity

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, Charity said:

My knowledge on this topic is limited to what I have read on GSC.  Among the volumes that have been written about how twi has not strayed away from vp, I think I remember reading about a few changes they've made.

Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has?  Just as in vp days, there's no way of knowing unless victims come forward. 

It's hard to remember which thread I read this on but recently there was a post that people taking the advanced class are now allowed to have a mortgage. I'll give this some thought. 

Now if the poster who bets his life on the accuracy and authority of the written PFAL collaterals and yet still has a connection with the local fellowships of the newest version of twi can give specific examples only about this topic, that might prove helpful.  What are the odds for betting on that?

 

 

In listening to conversations of those I personally know who are involved with TWI, the followers still seek information that's connected to VPW.

Knowing something VPW said or might have said is still the main currency among that group.

[Nathan_Jr]

16 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

In listening to conversations of those I personally know who are involved with TWI, the followers still seek information that's connected to VPW.

Knowing something VPW said or might have said is still the main currency among that group.

Reminds me of Scientology. They are always “discovering” lost or hidden writings of LRH.

The goal post is always moving. One spends $millions to reach the highest level of mastery… but, wait! There’s more… a previously unknown text to master. Get back in line…

[OldSkool]

Lets check out a few items of note:

The Way Corps Program: Specifically the training part:

• work/study program at the heart of the program so not only do people pay for participants tuition but the participants are worked without compensation for at least 20 hours a week, not including work projects
• Study hall is tightly structured to hedge in student's study time to study and review various way publications, current way magazines, STS material, etc.
• Study hall is also tightly structured to hedge sturdents study time on the class series du' juor. When I was in-res it was the way of abundance and power series, and Im sure its back to PFLAP for today. We had to participate in the class as students and then study the syllabus exclusively while in study hall.
• During my time in-rez wierille was mentioned dang near daily and we always heard about his various and sundry exploits, as well as how he put it all together so we wouldnt have to. Thats so nice....

 Outreach programs:

• Wierwille started the WOW program
• Martindale replaced the WOW program with Disciple of the Way Outreach Program, called Way Disciples.
• Current BOD has replaced Way Disciples with  Ambassadors of the Way program. https://www.theway.org/grow/way-ambassadors/
• Quoting TWI website from the above link: The Way International has a rich heritage spanning over five decades of reaching out with God’s Word. The early 1970s saw the advent of the Word Over the World (WOW) Ambassador program, which formed the basis of the Way Disciple program that would follow in the mid-1990s. The Ambassadors of the Way Outreach Program builds on the legacies left by our WOW Vets and Way Disciple Alumni and merges elements from those two programs into a contemporary format, fit for the twenty-first century.
• Its of note that the goal for WOW and Way Disciple was to run a class at the end of the tenure, or as many classes as you can but at least one. Thats what I lived through when I was way disciple twice. It seems that Ambassadors of the Way are focused in on starting a fellowship. Ruh-roh raggy, it seems fellowships may be a little hard to come by?

Working on Staff:

• Wierwille had staffers working for peanuts at HQ but the lure is to be with at the spiritual nerve center, the headquarters of the way internatinal.
• https://www.theway.org/blog/staff-commercial/                

Classes:

• Wierwille had power for abundant living 
• Martindale and Rivenbark various and sundry incarnations of the way of abundance and power.
• Current directors have PFAL Today
• There are many classes to take...  https://www.theway.org/connect-and-grow/classes/biblical-studies-series/

Ministry Themes each year -- check

Camps for Various Groups -- check

Way Corps

• https://www.theway.org/connect-and-grow/the-way-corps/
• Still a lifetime commitment
• Still requires graduates to swear an oath of allegiance using a salt covenant
• Still a lifetime of indentured servitude to the way international
• Still receive and accept arbitrary assignments claiming that God had the directors "Place" active participants in said assignment..

Rock of Ages made a comeback for young folks...

I dunno...seems like wierwille's legacy to me....

[OldSkool]

45 minutes ago, Charity said:

Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has?

I can say it had stopped on a wide spread scale when I was at HQ while I was way corps. It seems to have all come crashing down on Craig and the rest of those involved let craig take the fall for it all. Now, the problem I have isnt that it stopped...Im happey it appears it did. What I dont like is the way international has hidden the fact that wierwille was a serial adulterer as well as martindale and many others who learned from wierwille. The way never corrected the issue as scripture would have us do. Instead, they "taught/lectured" to the problem in Living God's Word as a Family where it was stated that adultery is wrong. Thats appropriate but true repentance never occured, they were forced to change by the courts and the threat of losing their positions and money.

[Bolshevik]

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Reminds me of Scientology. They are always “discovering” lost or hidden writings of LRH.

The goal post is always moving. One spends $millions to reach the highest level of mastery… but, wait! There’s more… a previously unknown text to master. Get back in line…

*drums on table with fingers*

Have the followers separated themselves from VPW?

 

. . What is accomplished without consent?

[OldSkool]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

In listening to conversations of those I personally know who are involved with TWI, the followers still seek information that's connected to VPW.

Knowing something VPW said or might have said is still the main currency among that group.

 

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Reminds me of Scientology. They are always “discovering” lost or hidden writings of LRH.

The goal post is always moving. One spends $millions to reach the highest level of mastery… but, wait! There’s more… a previously unknown text to master. Get back in line…

Dang, I missed these two points. Lemme say when I was in-residence my corps coordinator would find anything that VPS did, no matter the stupid mannersism, and push it on the way corps as something to emulate. He told us one time that VPW used to eat sandwhiches with a fork and knife, but stopped short of mandating how we ate our sandwhiches....silly example, but something VPW supposedly said? Now that would on par with da verd.

[chockfull]

4 hours ago, Charity said:

Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has?  Just as in vp days, there's no way of knowing unless victims come forward. 

It's hard to remember which thread I read this on but recently there was a post that people taking the advanced class are now allowed to have a mortgage. I'll give this some thought. 

Yes the sexual crimes and abuse have subsided.  Now it’s only the normal cult exploitation crimes lol.  

I had also heard of that debt restriction being lifted.   But no teaching correction or allowing that for programs - ambassadors or sea org - I mean corps. 

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

*drums on table with fingers*

Have the followers separated themselves from VPW?

 

No. Not the followers I know.

[chockfull]

14 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yes the sexual crimes and abuse have subsided.  Now it’s only the normal cult exploitation crimes lol.  

I had also heard of that debt restriction being lifted.   But no teaching correction or allowing that for programs - ambassadors or sea org - I mean corps. 

I wanted to comment on the change to the debt policy.  This came at a great cost.  I personally know 5 different people who lovingly presented correction to the BOD regarding the debt teachings and policies.  From scripture.  All 5 of them were excommunicated over time.

 

[OldSkool]

4 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I wanted to comment on the change to the debt policy.  This came at a great cost.  I personally know 5 different people who lovingly presented correction to the BOD regarding the debt teachings and policies.  From scripture.  All 5 of them were excommunicated over time.

 

I read several papers people had prepared to send in to rozilla and many of them were irrefutable. Yet wierwilles doctrines have a tendency to blind the mind and obscure reason with it's unreasonable and false claims. 

[WordWolf]

A LOT of people sent in papers showing the debt policy was wrong, and had unassailable cases.  twi had no intention of changing just because they were wrong.  The prospect of losing large groups of people over this policy made them reconsider, since losing all those tithes was one of the few things that can get twi to change.  "Searching for the truth" is not any of them, of course.

[OldSkool]

6 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

A LOT of people sent in papers showing the debt policy was wrong, and had unassailable cases.  twi had no intention of changing just because they were wrong.  The prospect of losing large groups of people over this policy made them reconsider, since losing all those tithes was one of the few things that can get twi to change.  "Searching for the truth" is not any of them, of course.

Not only searching for the truth, but Im hard pressed to be able to categorize any of their expenses as anything more than sales and self-preservation. Thats from a cabinet perspective.